I Am Truly, Truly Alarmed At The Mindset of Some DUers Here Re The Gates Incident

[Yavin4]

Leave alone the race angle, which is in itself a whole thread, the very idea that some DUers are equivocating over the arrest of someone in their own home after showing ID is simply unbelievable.

Do some of you even fucking know anything about constitutional law at all? Are you so damn paranoid about crime that you're willing to live in a goddamn police state?

Once Gates showed his ID, the fucking cops should have left that man alone in his house. The fucking police report even acknowledges that the cop saw the ID. Anything beyond that is a complete infringement of the man's constitutional rights.

AND I CANNOT FUCKING BELIEVE THAT I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THE GODDAMN CONSTITUTION TO SOME OF MY FELLOW DUers.

I expect this from the fucking Freepers, but DU?!?!?

READ AMENDMENT 4 to the U.S. Constitution:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[G_j]

1. K&R

[seabeyond]

2. i am flabbergasted myself. i wasn't in these threads until this afternoon. i cannot

believe that people are so devout at standing up for police they refuse their basic rights. this is for ALL of us. not even about race. beyond race. and the defense of this behavior. i am with you. i haven't had an ... i am so pissed... like i have had this evening on du with this subject.

[autorank]

125. It's exceptionally lame, I agree.

Lets see, on Gates side, there re the issues of profiling, racism, and civil and constitutional rights - and on the other side, the issue of being contrarian and defending the lame cause of home invasion by anyone, including the police.

Go figure?

[bvar22]

130. DU has gone waaaaaay comservative.

The "Centrists" have landed.

Centrist = Half Republican

[Jennicut]

165. As a fairly moderate Dem, I am shocked and disgusted.

And one of the most left leaning Dems here posted like 5 posts trying to defend the officer that arrested Gates. Its incredible.

[BlueCaliDem]

284. The officer was wrong. He was pissed that Prof. Gates demanded his name and badge number

and he wanted to put that black man in his place. Why did Prof. Gates have to ask the officer repeatedly for his name and badge number? Why wasn't he told and shown the first time?

I doubt the officer would've been so obtuse had Prof. Gates been Caucasian.

[KansDem]

298. Unfortunately, it appears police officers have moved from enforcing the law...

...to just wanting to engage in "pissing contests."

In many videos I've viewed of late, it appears that following initial contact with a suspect, the officer(s) actions degenerate into a "my dick's bigger than yours" competition...

[BlueCaliDem]

321. In L.A. County that's the rule, not the exception. Here, they are gods

and they act like it.

They constantly run red lights, or turn on sirens to pass through a red light, then shut it off once they're on the other side. They constantly speed at 20+ mph above the speed limit for no apparent reason (who's gonna say something?), and they'll cut you off in traffic without signaling.

My 17-year-old daughter was at a sleepover at some friends' house one night. The neighbors called in the cops because someone left their boombox on past 11 - in the house, and it wasn't even that loud.

Cops came out hoping for a drug bust (they get to keep 80% of what they "raid" so there's incentive there to not fight drug crimes all that hard) and tore my daughter out of her bed, dragged her to the curb at 12 midnight, cuffed her, had her blow into their instruments, and when they discovered she wasn't drunk, she didn't do drugs, charge her with breaking curfew!

But it gets better.

She's sat, cuffed, on the curb for two hours, then taken to jail and they didn't even bother to let her call me, or call me for that matter, until 5:35 in the morning. I made a stink and threatened to call the Mayor, the governor and my congress woman (at that time, Hilda Solis).

Here's were they get corrupted.

On the police report, they falsified the time they arrested her. They said it was 3:45, not 12 midnight and then the sergeant there went on to tell me that they're allowed to hold minors for SIX HOURS before calling the parents. He flat out LIED and I said so.

I asked him, "So hard criminals are allowed one phone call to whomever, but my 17-year-old daughter, who's squeaky clean, and a MINOR is allowed to be held in custody for SIX HOURS before I'm notified?!?

I told him, maybe that's standard practice in Nazi Germany, but not the United States. Where are we? Gitmo?

Needless to say, the report was never filed and there was no court date. I think my letter to the Mayor helped in that regard.

[JDPriestly]

333. We live in an area under gang injunction. Obviously at 66, no officer

would take me for a gang member, but I wonder what life is like for the kids in the neighborhood -- the good ones who just want to chat with friends on the street. The gangs are horrible, but the gang injunction is abominable. James Madison must be turning over in his grave.

[1monster]

306. As a woman, I have been taught to ALWAYS demand to see ID from anyone

identifying himself verbally as police before allowing him physical access to my car, my home or to myself. It could be the difference between life and death.

I've also been told when pulled over by a police officer to drive on to a well lit, populated area, where there are witnesses.

Law enforcement officers should have their badge and the police identification card out and open to the person they are accosting.

It is a matter of safety for the citizen and the LEO both.

[aquart]

364. Beg to differ.

A cop who gets pissy over being asked for his badge number doesn't care what color is trying to get him into trouble.

[Solomon]

219. I was shocked when I looked over at Free Republic. They

are saying it was stupid and a violation of the first amendment. Their only beef is that they see it as a clear first amendment case and not a race case. But to a person, they are in agreement that a cop has no right to arrest someone in their home for mouthing off to police.

It's a sad day when the freepers get it and left wingers don't. Up is down and down is up. Left is right amd right is left.

Go figure.

[H2O Man]

245. Great point.

Unreal. Just unreal.

I've appreciated your comments on these threads, by the way.

[kegler14]

256. Freepers have called this guy all kinds of names and made their share of

racist remarks. But, yes, there is subset of Freepers who think ALL police are bad and who can barely keep from cheering when cops are killed.

[seabeyond]

258. no, .... it is seeing that cops have shifted to a bully, godlike, all powerful, no restriction

attitude ignoring our rights as citizens.

[kegler14]

268. Sorry but I don't see that where I live.

They certainly aren't perfect, some can be pretty oafish and we get some bad apples, but the cops I've known (and I've known quite a few as a former newspaper reporter) have overall been good people. The ones who weren't generally didn't last long.

I'm not defending the Boston cop, but I suspect, as somebody else mentioned, that there's a third side -- known as "what really happened."

[seabeyond]

272. no, you dont see it. many people do and are angry and fighting for our rights

hence why i posted to your incorrect assumption of motive

[sandnsea]

302. Of course you don't, that's the friggin' point

Cops don't act like this. Except when they do. And when they do, it's a constitutional violation no matter why they do it.

[bjobotts]

453. What happened to diffusing the situation, being bigger than the players

[heliarc]

381. Do you speak any spanish while wandering around boston...

Cause I have NEVER felt as pigeonholed as when I was in Boston with my band. We are all spanish speakers and we were harassed by police and security personnel when we were anywhere in Cambridge. I'm sure we would have been fine if we had stayed in the Puerto Rican neighborhood, but in Cambridge we were definitely persona non grata... just for speaking Spanish. Weirdest weekend on tour ever.

Let me qualify this by saying that my band was made up of one Haverford professor, a Middle School Teacher, a Classical Guitar teacher, and myself a student at Swarthmore at the time. We were always dressed pretty conservatively, and we were always composed. Weird.

[Hannah Bell]

413. what "third side" would that be, since no one's made the claim gates did anything more than mouth

off?

rather than let it go & leave, the policeman arrested him to show him who was boss.

there's no "third side".

[kenfrequed]

353. Actually

The left wingers get it too. Many of the people I encountered that were defending the officers actiosn were people that I either rarely ever saw or people that had, at one point or another, demonstrated a corporate/centrist bias.

[autorank]

379. rofl - thanks for that info.

I really admired Obama's response at the press conference. He didn't run from the question and nailed it. I though,
damn, just a word about constitutional rights and it would have been even better. I'm glad they got it. It is pretty obvious. One of the foundations of gun ownership is 'protecting the home' although a gun would have been totally useless in that situation. Nevertheless, this is good.

Plus, what the heck is a guy doing in a kitchen with bags and a driver? Maybe he's arriving home from a f'ing trip!

:)

[krkaufman]

389. Well, thank goodness that Prof. Gates didn't heed G. Gordon Liddy's advice, eh? nt

[autorank]

450. I'm afraid to ask. What did G. Gordon say? n/t

[krkaufman]

508. effectively, go for a head shot when the authorities come after you

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1313

[rcrush]

505. I'm not surprised at all.

Seems to be that a lot of people on DU and on "the left" have a real love of authority that its nauseating.

[Raineyb]

506. Damn that's fucked up. n/t

[liquid diamond]

507. Your screen name fits. That's a profound post. Thanks.

[jhrobbins]

325. I am siding with the President in that cooler heads should have prevailed

I think Gates should have shown his ID imediately - I would have, but there is no cause for arresting a man in his own home once they had made that determination. The point of my post is I was listening to the lawyer representing the police dept. and he was outlining the parameters for 'disorderly conduct', most (if any) had not been met in this arrest. What this lawyer said that pissed me off was that police officers couldn't be expected to have to 'get out the law books' when making an arrest. Is it too much to ask of officers to KNOW BASIC LAW! I couldn't believe this idiot said that.

[downindixie]

297. Gates was not in his home when he was arrested

Once he came outside he was in the public view.I hope that the officer can prove that Gates was wrong.As a retired police sergeant I have seen people accuse the police of discrimanation,when there was no evidence of it.I'm not saying that discrimanation doesn't exist,I know it does.

[sandnsea]

303. Yelling is not illegal

You can yell in your yard and yell at a damn cop and not get arrested in 99% of the country.

[Barrymores Ghost]

339. You're talking to a pod sleeper.

Trust me. Check his profile. Don't waste your time with that one.

[Barrymores Ghost]

340. self-delete (dupe)

[creeksneakers2]

475. If you argue with cops

they usually give a warning and then if you continue find something to arrest you for. Disordly conduct is their anytime charge because they can throw it at almost anything.

Cops feel very threatened by any disrespect because they believe fear of them is what is keeping them safe.

[seabeyond]

305. as a retired officer you know you are trained to handle the anger. the cop was trained

to handle this situation. he was a veteran cop. he was in a program as a teacher to train fellow officers in diversity. he was paid and professional. he could have defused the situation, further it was his trained job to defuse the situation. instead he escalated it.

the police (per his own words) knew gates belonged in that home. that is what the police said. yet still he held gates up to "further verify" even though he KNEW that gates belonged. right there he purposely escalated the situation instead of thanking the man for his time, and leaving.

(i am not even going off gates version, defenders of the police refuse to listen to his words. so i am only using the cops interpretation)

gates asked for id and name repeatedly. it is the policemans job to provide and he did not. again escalating gates anger. the cop did not do his job in two different ways there. he did not give id and name which he was suppose to, and he did not defuse, he escalated, which is not what he was trained to do

the cop then told gates to get the info he would have to go outside. (again, this is the cops story). my opinion, is that at that point the cop had already decided to arrest adn needed gates outside

gates went outside and was arrested

at the point of the police knowing gates belonged at the residence, his job was done. everything after that is on the cops shoulders.

it isnt right

with this behavior, people, ordinary citizens like me, are not going to support the police. so people like you, .... who have invested a lifetime serving, are effected. police need our support. but they will not receive blind respect, submissiveness, or able to use bullying and intimidation for compliance. again, that is wrong

[1monster]

309. Since when is the porch not a part of a person's home? Maybe the law is different

in Massachusettes, but in Florida, one's entrance/front/back/side/etc. porch is legally part of one's home. (DH just read the law this morning as part of applying for a needed county licesne.)

[lies and propaganda]

310. "as a retired police seargeant..."

means your word means SHIT to me. a cop defending the actions of other power abusing cops. Youve seen discrimination claims when there were none? awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, poor guys!

They can just go shoot some citizens minding their business to make them feel better.

[Supply Side Jesus]

376. Stay Classy San Diego!

[Barrymores Ghost]

341. Why am I disinclined to believe you are who you claim to be?

Pod sleeper.

[Sequoia]

445. What's a pod sleeper?

Is it like those body snatcher's?

[Barrymores Ghost]

499. It's a troll who registers and lays dormant for a few years...

...than sticks his snot-caked face out from beneath his bridge every so often to stir up shit.

[freebrew]

392. He may have been outside his house,

but he was still well within his home, meaning his own property.
If this is a new meaning, it needs to be changed. My 'home' is my house, garage and the 30 acres I live on.
Police better have a warrant to trespass on any of it.

[WinkyDink]

437. By then, the cop was ticked, and acted on HIS emotions. IMO.

[The Wielding Truth]

446. As soon as the police were shown his id they should have

apologized and left. No matter how upset Gates was, they should have stopped any further action against him, unless he was physically threatening.This is a sticky problem for the police and a probably embarrassed home owner, who had locked himself out. It is emotional and should have been handled understandingly by the officers.

Obviously, the officers did not handle this situation smartly.

Obama however has handled his subsequent remarks with amazing poise and graciousness.

He is proving to be a great president. I know he is not perfect. He needs our support and the support of the greedy, out of control, congress.

This country needs to realize that democracy does work if we are educated and brave.

[creeksneakers2]

480. Are you familiar with the law in MA?

Because here in PA the police can just give you a disorderly ticket on the spot. They can even go back to the station and mail it to you. Does the law in MA require that the police handcuff, photograph and hold for four hours someone over what is admitted here to be only a $40 fine?

[Captain Hilts]

3. Arresting a man of his age in his own home is insane. nt

[rzemanfl]

15. It is upsetting when people use "a man of his age" with reference

to someone younger than I am. :)

[eridani]

186. Indeed. And since when are they letting children become police officers anyway? n/t

[virgogal]

36. A man of his age? I think he's only 58,The Stones are older than him

[Captain Hilts]

71. He uses a cane. Statistically, he's harmless. nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

77. Clearly,

you've never been whacked by a cane wielded by a pissed-off senior citizen................

[Ken Burch]

91. OK, you've made a case for handcuffing THIS guy:

[Franzia]

467. Be nice to the senior citizens or they will render you inoperative with their ninja cane fu skills!

Cane Fu

[enzymatic]

523. He had to tell them he used a cane; he wasn't hobbling around at the time.

D'oh! I know all the ambiguity is upsetting, but try to deal. Oh, and he seemed to be quite active and strong as he tried to push that door in. I guess he wasn't 'disabled' until later...:rofl:

[MUAD_DIB]

103. The stones have been pickled. Nothing will kill them.

[Captain Hilts]

116. Except falling out of a palm tree again. nt

[Sebastian Doyle]

And Keith wouldn't have put up with that shit either.

He probably would have smacked the cop upside the head with a Telecaster.

Kind of like he did to this "overzealous fan"..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyK0y02HvVc

[awnobles]

352. Hell Yes,

A really heavy 70's one I hope.

[serbbral]

236. I think he's only 58.......

No. He's 60 something.

[Hannah Bell]

422. police report says 58.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

[Strong Atheist]

524. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[slampoet]

Exactly my point. Name ONE 58 year old burglar who still stoops to home invasions.

Hell, just name a 58 year old burglar in general.

They really only exist in the mind of Hollywood.

[bjobotts]

454. Right.It was completely unnecessary and unwarranted Especially the handcuffs.

[bjobotts]

455. cops use no discretion anymore,They just want to handcuff everyone. even amputees

[baldguy]

4. You can't "leave alone the race angle". That's the whole reason the incident occurred as it did.

Do you really believe that a 58-yr old WHITE Harvard professor would have been treated in the same manner?

[rzemanfl]

9. Well, maybe if he was really drunk.... not otherwise. eom

[Xipe Totec]

13. Not insane, just very, very stupid. n/t

[seabeyond]

14. two white people, middle of the day with LUGGAGE all around would not have gotten a call

that is the first reason i would have started getting angry

[MGKrebs]

262. But that has nothing to do with the cops.

That has to do with the neighbor.

[seabeyond]

285. no, it has nothing to do with the cops, nor did i say it did. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

118. Yes. There are some SERIOUS class issues between folks like cops and Harvard types of any stripe.nt

[BlueCaliDem]

289. Did you catch the televised interview yesterday with Off. Crowley?

When asked what he thought about the President's remark, he smiled and said "Well, I didn't vote for him."

Very telling.

[Chulanowa]

157. Well, what hte OP is saying is "leaving the race angle aside for the moment"...

Before explaining another salient point.

Worded differently than I would have done, but that's what he's saying :)

[Carni]

367. NO! I had the SAME THING HAPPEN/cops were very polite

We had to break into our own home and a neighbor who hated us (long story) called the cops--cops came asked nicely to see some ID I showed it to them (shaking like crazy I might add not sure why) and they thanked me and left.

I was outside when they arrived, but my husband was already in the house after he broke a back window and was just emerging out of the side door. We are white there were no hassles--I would bet big money that if we had been black the result would have been different.

Having cops show up in your yard when you belong there, is disconcerting and frightening--some people get nervous, some people get pissed. I got nervous obviously Gates got pissed.

ASIDE however from the race component...arresting someone on their own property because they didn't act excited and thrilled to be hassled is WRONG. I dion't care how belligerant Gates got (IF he did and I don't know that he did) arresting him was WRONG.

If he was truly over the top loud and obnoxious perhaps a ticket could have been issued for loudness (whatever they call those tickets) but even that IMO would have been bullshit.

[heliarc]

386. You were shaking like crazy ...

because there are any number of terrible stories about cops who pull their guns (or tasers out) in stupid situations. I am always very very scared of interactions with police. I'm hispanic, and well-spoken I think, but there are any number of verbal or gestural miscommunications that could set a nervous cop off...

And I'm not saying that cops don't have good reason to be high strung or nervous, but they are carrying a firearm and that's enough to get me twitchy.

[IsItJustMe]

469. Honestly, no I don't. But there are too many white people in denial. That is the problem.

[undeterred]

5. Thank you.

[BlooInBloo]

6. Now you're overreacting. They're ok with a police state for black folks - not *themselves*. Duh...

For *themselves*, they spout off about the "Castle Doctrine" and crap like that. It just doesn't apply to certain others in our country.

[seabeyond]

11. well you know what. then they are stupid ass white people, cause this white person sees

how this doesnt matter if the person is white or black..... this is all of us.

[Odin2005]

7. I know, I mean WTF? I'd be wigging out if I were in his shoes, too.

Why the hell are people bashing Dr. Gates?

[mike_c]

8. "They who can give up essential liberty..."

"...to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

--Ben Franklin

[scheming daemons]

10. That's right. The police had no business being *IN* his home once he showed ID.

At that point, they were violating his 4th amendment rights.

[AtheistCrusader]

409. And how loud would you be screaming if

The officer established the man in the livingroom was the homeowner, and left, while someone who broke into the house was hiding in the back of the house, and the homeowner ended up accosted after the police left?

Or a hostage situation?

[Hannah Bell]

416. aliens might have been hiding in the attic too. how would everyone felt *then*?

good thing the officer had the foresight to arrest gates.

[AtheistCrusader]

424. I just love how the police get it from both ends.

Maybe if Mr. Gates had been cooperative, and skipped the abuse, none of this would have happened.

If they show up and investigate, they're profiling.
If they show up and don't investigate, and something bad happens, they're negligent.

I love me some good no-win scenarios.

[Hannah Bell]

432. maybe if they'd left once gates established he was the resident of the home, none of this would

have happened, too.

like, if they'd done their job.

they're the police. they're supposedly trained to deal with belligerant people.

oooh, no, gates was rude when they questioned his presence in his own home?

i would have been rude too. if they have such delicate sensibilities, they're in the wrong line of work.

[AtheistCrusader]

440. It's hard to do your job, when someone is flipping out on you.

They didn't arrest him for 'being rude'. Barring some amazingly incriminating revelation about the officer's actions that isn't public yet, I hope Gates makes good on his lawsuit threat, and fails miserably in court.

I've seen police officers violate civil rights before. This wasn't it, based on the information availble right now.

[DissedByBush]

463. No Fourth Amendment issue

He followed Gates to his kitchen while investigating a reported crime.

His purpose there was to protect Gates' house from an alleged intruder.

After being shown ID the officer proceeded to leave.

Gates allegedly yelled at him in the kitchen and foyer.

The officer said that interfered with his communications and asked Gates to come outside if he wanted to continue.

Then outside the allegedly still screaming Gates was arrested after being warned to calm down.

There was no search. There was no seizure.

At no point is it alleged by either party that Gates told him to leave and he refused.

There is no Fourth Amendment issue here.

There is only a race issue. Was this a racist cop oppressing a black man, was this a black man pulling the race card to create a stink during a routine encounter, or something in between? I am starting to believe the cop more as this goes on especially since he was hand-picked by a black superior to teach other cops how to avoid racial profiling. He's trying to stop what he's accused of doing.

If this happened to me I would have thanked the cop for looking out for my property and maybe offered him a cup of coffee.

[creeksneakers2]

485. All the cop had to do was leave

I don't see how going outside would make communications any better. Both the cop and Gates agree that most of what Gates was doing was asking for the cop's name and badge number. The cop says Gates called him a racist, but the black cop at the scene says he didn't hear it.(Hard to miss if Gates was yelling that loudly) The white cop should have just handed Gates a business card and left. No need to handcuff and arrest and photograph and hold Gates for four hours.

[DissedByBush]

489. The cop gave a reason

Gates allegedly raising his voice in his foyer had acoustics that meant the cop couldn't communicate with base. It was echoing. My foyer does that too. Going outside would help with that.

For the arrest that is a matter of discretion if Gates was belligerent as stated. The cop did state he warned Gates to calm down twice and Gates allegedly did not follow instructions. We are second-guessing while we weren't there.

[U4ikLefty]

510. Bullshit.

The cop wanted Gates outside so he would have legal cover to arrest.

[DissedByBush]

511. Sounds good to me

I was taught long ago not to get angry and loud with cops or there could be consequences. How about you?

Gates is lucky he wasn't in Germany where he could have gotten a nightstick across his head. And the public would have said "Crazy bastard got what was coming for harassing the police."

[Tangerine LaBamba]

12. Now read

Wolff v. Rice and Stone v. Powell, and that'll be a very good start towards your understanding of the Fourth Amendment.

After you get through those two beauties (I helped represent the prisoner who was then known as David Rice), start reading all the Supreme Court decisions that have narrowed and defined the Fourth Amendment as it is interpreted today.

You're waving your bare ass of ignorance when you bleat that you're going to instruct DUers about the Constitution.

Now, go learn, and next time, be armed with information, so that you don't embarrass yourself again.....................

[Xipe Totec]

22. All well and good, but is this really a 4th amendment issue?

or simply abuse of power under color of authority?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

57. I don't think it's a Fourth Amendment issue at all -

but, since I don't know what happened in the house, what prompted Gates to go out onto the porch, I'm reserving judgment.

The one thing I've learned in this long life is that if you have two people sitting there telling you a story, you can be sure that there are three real versions - the first person's, the second person's, and what really happened, which is usually floating up there around the ceiling.

I just get so weary of people trying to practice law without a license, cutting and copying parts of the Constitution, as if they knew what they were talking about................

[Duckhunter935]

60. Thank you

"The one thing I've learned in this long life is that if you have two people sitting there telling you a story, you can be sure that there are three real versions - the first person's, the second person's, and what really happened, which is usually floating up there around the ceiling."

I agree completely

[Xipe Totec]

69. what prompted Gates to go out onto the porch

Was the officer asking him to step outside.

That's in the record.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

72. He refused the first time,

hip as he was to the idea that you can be busted when you're outside your house.

But, from what I've read, Gates was really angry and just threw good sense to the wind and went out there, going after the cop.

We all do things in the heat of anger.

I wonder if we'll ever know..........................

[Xipe Totec]

78. That does not negate the fact that he was ordered outside

by the cop who then had the bad sense to arrest him.

All in all, I would say it was a stupid move on the part of the cop.

In an encounter between a resident and an police officer, who has most experience?

I think the person with the most experience has the burden of exercising the most common sense.

In this case, the officer had the most experience, and had the responsibility to exercises common sense.

The guy was in his own home. The reason for the police call was rendered moot at that point. The resident asked for identification. The officer was obliged to provide it. Instead, he arrested the resident, presumably, to teach him a lesson on authority.

That was a stupid move.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

81. Was he ordered to go outside

the second time?

I thought he went out there on his own?

You think the cop had more experience than Gates? I disagree.

No, something intervened between the asking for the cop's name and when Gates went outside. It's not as you stated it - not at all.

Ah, it's late. I'm tired. This one is beyond me. I'll watch it unfold, and I just hope everyone learns from it. That it turns out to be a teachable moment for everyone.........................

[iris27]

94. I figured he was wondering what the hell all these OTHER cops were suddenly doing on his porch?

At least, that's what would've been going through my head at the time and what would've made me go outside.

[GOTV]

208. According to the police report gates was not ordered to go outside ....

... the officer said he was leaving and gates followed him outside.

I don't know if Gates own statements contradict that part of the police report or not.

I also wasn't there so I don't know if the police report was accurate on that point.

It would be nice to see evidence for the claim that the cop ordered gates outside.

[RaleighNCDUer]

241. Exactly. The fact that the officer ordered him out in the first place

clearly indicates that the officer's intent was to arrest him, for no other reason than challenging his authority. Saying he was 'disturbing the peace' was pure bullshit because the only reason he was upset was due to the confrontation with Crowley. He was not throwing furniture through the windows or screaming at the neighbors. Had he been treated with the respect he was due, there would have been no incident at all.

[FloriTexan]

265. The whole thing blew up...

The cop should have had the woman who call in the report and all the bystanders leave the area. The cop should have realized that it was just going to make matters worse to have an audience standing around. Gates was probably watching the whole thing scene from inside his house before the cops got there and wondering why this white woman is standing in front of his house on the cell phone. It was up to the officer to diffuse the situation.

[Davis_X_Machina]

110. If he doesn't go on the porch, there's...

..no 'disorderly conduct' under MA law. No 'public' -- no disorderly. Inside the house Gates would need to have been goaded into taking a swing at him. That's why he said he'd give Gates his badge number and name if he stepped onto the porch.

[Statistical]

137. Exactly. The courts have ruled cops can use trickery to aid in an arrest, or gather evidence.

People often forget the cops exist for one purpose and one purpose only.

To arrest citizens and to gather evidence for successful prosecution by the district attorney.

Period.

The cops do not exist to "protect and serve" and they have no duty to provide protection to any individual.

Anytime your are dealing with a law enforcement officer you should act as is you are suspect (because likely you are).

Gates could have call police non emergency line and advised the officers responding to the call failed to protect ID.

He also could have asked "Am I under arrest?" and then slammed the door in their face.

Going on the porch was stupid (especially for someone as knowledgable as Gates) because it met the burden of proof required to arrest him and enable the Police to arrest him without a warrant because he was in a public place.

As a rule of thumb:
If Police ask you to come out on the porch you likely should not.

[Xipe Totec]

207. If the purpose of the police is not to protect and serve, why are we paying their salaries? n/t

[Statistical]

215. The purpose of the police is to protect the general public

by arresting criminals and gathering evidence for successful prosecution.

Police will also routinely stop crimes in progress however the Police are under no duty or obligation to protect any citizen.

This case is often an eye opener:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

or a more recent one with same decision:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales

[Statistical]

73. +1 This has nothing to do with the 4th

The Police didn't collect evidence against him without a warrant.

The Police arrested him based on a "crime in progress" = disorderly conduct.

Nothing in the Constitution requires the law to obtain a warrant to stop a crime in progress.

Now I am NOT saying the situation deserved arrest but the LEO (wrongly IMHO) determined a crime was in progress and used arrest powers granted to him by the state to stop that crime. None of which has anything to do with the 4th.

If anything it is an issue on the limits or lack of limits on arrest powers of police involving non violent crimes.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

75. It seems that

Gates was arrested for something that transpired AFTER the break-in matter was resolved..............

[Statistical]

132. Exactly.

He was arrested for disorderly conduct.

Now we can debate if the arrest was legit and even if the officer could arrest him if he SHOULD have arrested him.

However none of that makes it a 4th amendment case.

He was on his porch and a crime was in progress. The courts have routinely ruled the cops have latitude in using arrest powers to stop a crime in progress. The crime in this case being disorderly conduct not burglary.

I think the arrest is suspect and I think even if the arrest was technically good, LEO should attempt to resolve the situation with least amount of force necessary. Even if he was beligerent the cops could have left. He wasn't a danger to himself or anyone else. He wasn't arguing with anyone but the cops so once they left he likely would have gone inside and that would have been the end of that.

However none of that makes it a 4th amendment issue.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

143. Right -

People latch onto an idea - "It's a violation of his Fourth Amendment rights!!!' - for reasons that aren't very clear. Unless it's as simple as the possibility that they don't know what the Fourth Amendment is about.

We don't yet know what all happened.

Until then, I reserve judgment.

Not that my opinion means anything, anyway....................

[kestrel91316]

280. He was FALSELY arrested. There WAS no "disorderly conduct".

What there was, was a cop with an overinflated sense of his own self-importance and ego, confronted by an indignant (and rightly so) black man. We can't have no uppity nigras givin' the almighty cops no lip now, can we?

[AtheistCrusader]

410. Glad to know you were there.

Tell me, what did the officer have for lunch?

[conscious evolution]

328. Standing up for your rights is a crime?

OK.

[msanthrope]

96. I disagree. The cop had no right of entry into the house.

Read the statement of Gates, and the police report.

"Crime in progress" was simply not established. It is not established by your neighbor calling in that she saw Black people on your porch.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

105. No, that's not so,

and it's not even in dispute.

Read "exigent circumstances."

[msanthrope]

138. Exigent circumstances do not arise from your neighbor calling

because she sees Black people on your porch.

Read the report. At no time does Crowley claim that he observed circumstances that give rise to exigent circumstances that allow entry.

Interestingly, though, in an interview today in the NYT, Crowley NOW describes his witness as "reliable", a claim he did not put into his police report. The cynic in me would cross this officer on his later use of that word....because we know that you may try to justify entry on the word of a 'reliable' witness.

"Crowley described the woman who reported the possible break-in — who works at Harvard Magazine, on Gates' street — as "reliable," and said that while the professor did not "look like somebody who would break into a house," his tone was troubling."

http://www.mercurynews.com/nationworld/ci_12902510

I bet Gates' tone was troubling.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

144. It wasn't a neighbor who called it in -

The word "reliable" is used routinely in police reports where a warrant was not called for. It harkens back to the practice of relying on the word of an informant - a "reliable" one - whose statement was needed in order to obtain a search warrant.

The word itself, in that context, is standard. No big deal ..........................

[msanthrope]

194. If it wasn't a neighbor, then that makes her even less 'reliable.'

And reliable, in this context, is not 'standard' because it does not appear in the police report. It was used, afterwards, in his ass-covering interviews. As in, this is why I took the word of some chickadee on the street with a cell phone.....

In crossing an officer who uses the word 'reliable' in describing his witness, a decent attorney is expected to inquire into what makes said witness, in fact, reliable.

Here you have a non-neighbor, passer-by, who has seen two men on a porch.

What makes her reliable? The fact that she is white and they are black? Because that's what it sounds like.

************

[Hassin Bin Sober]

263. To be fair, the fact they were "forcing" a door open is not in dispute.

It goes a little further than "two black men on a porch"

[msanthrope]

300. Take that as true--they forced the door open and then the driver

took his luggage in and drove off, leaving the 5 for 5 man with a cane.

If two white people were doing the same action, does it even get called in? Responded to in the same manner?

I don't think so. What I want to hear is the 911 call and the dispatch call.

[MajorChode]

152. Gates home had been broken into before

Haas also revealed, in response to reporters' questions at the news conference, that Gates's house had been broken into before the incident. He did not specify exactly when the break-in had taken place.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/cambridge_polic_3.html

[msanthrope]

155. And? Crowley didn't have that info at time of this call. No exigency. n/t

[MajorChode]

158. How can you possibly know that?

[msanthrope]

182. Why would Crowley have that info when no report had been made with his department?

Read the cop report, towards the end. It's Gates who is telling them of the prior attempt that made the front door impossible to open. Crowley had no prior knowledge, or he would have put it in his ass-covering report.

[bowens43]

204. bullshit.

there was no crime in progress. This is the kind nauseating responese that I find so unbelievable.

[Statistical]

216. Reading Comprehension is FUN!

I never said there was a crime in progress I said the cop arrested Gates to stop a crime HE BELIEVED was in progress (disorderly conduct).

Regardless of it the arrest did or did not have merit the issue is not a 4th amendment issue.

The Police were outside the house. They asked Gates to exit the house. Gate did. Once outside the house no warrant was required and with a crime in progress (per the Police) they arrested him.

Did the Police do a lot of things wrong? Hell Yes.
Does that make it a 4th amendment violation? No.

It is just sad that anytime the police do anything wrong people like to chant 4th amendment without even looking to see if it applies.
It is possible for Police to make a false arrest and it have nothing to do with the 4th.

[RaleighNCDUer]

248. Crowley followed Gates INTO the house without invitation.

That is the violation of the 4th amendment, and that is WHY Gates was upset with him. It was Crowley's own actions that sparked the so-called 'disorderly conduct'. He KNEW he was in the wrong, which is why he refused to give his ID in the house, telling him he'd give it to him when he went outside, where he could THEN bust him on the trumped up 'disorderly' charge.

Is that so hard to understand?

[Statistical]

254. He entered the residence PRIOR to Gate providing ID.

Timeline:
Cop arrived on scene.
Cop sees Gates (not knowing his identity) inside the house in which a burglary had been reported.
Cop identified himself by name and as Police.
Cop asked for ID. Gates initially refused.
Cop entered residence.
Gates provided ID at second request.
Cop left the residence.
Gates asked for Cops badge #.
Cop asked him to exit the residence.
Gates did.
Cop arrested him outside the residence.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17512830/Gates-Police-Report

Did the cops do a lot wrong? Yes.
Was it a 4th amendment issue? Not in the slightest.

At the time the cop entered the residence the identity of Gates had no been confirmed and he was inside a residence that someone witnessed a possible break in.

Cops are expected to investigate cimes in progress. Lets say it wasn't Gates but rather a burglar. If the cop had just taken the burglar word that he "lived there" and left it would have been incompetence also.

Once confirming the identity the cop should have just provided his badge number and left. The cop took it personal and tricked Gates into leaving the residence with the intent to arrest him.

[Ysabela]

271. But the black man was loud, that's a "crime" to these idiots.

The true colors of some DU'ers shines through.

[noiretextatique]

320. bottom line...they expect us to cower and defer

to the symbols of white supremacy.

[Strong Atheist]

522. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[RaleighNCDUer]

244. Read it again.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated...

What is 'reasonable' about arresting someone for being mouthy to a cop? In his own fucking home?

Was he busting things up? Was he even SWEARING at the officer? No.

There was NO disorderly conduct. That's why THE CHARGES WERE DROPPED.

[msanthrope]

86. Oh, yeah, it is a 4th issue, which is why the case was dropped

like a hot potato.

Probable cause to enter a residence does not arise from your paranoid white neighbor calling in and saying there are Black people on your porch. Officer Crowley had no legal means of entry into the house.

So why did he go in anyway, after Gates?

Because Crowley knows the law--even if he went in after Gates, illegally, Gates would have no standing to claim a 4th violation because Gates isn't the homeowner---except that he was. To Crowley, he just assumed that the Black man he saw wasn't the homeowner. So he went inside to follow Gates.

Then he realized his mistake, which is why he then left without addressing Gates demands, and arrested him on the porch.

Which is why some wingnuts are spewing the meme that Gates invited the cop in. He didn't.


and yeah, I do know what I am talking about.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

90. Oh, lord -

sure.

Whatever you say...........

[msanthrope]

100. Well, that type of legal repartee certainly proves your point!

You say you 'helped represent' David Rice.

Were you his attorney?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

102. I was one of them,

at the appellate level.

His counsel at the Supreme Court argument was William C. Cunningham, SJ, who was called in on forty-eight hours' notice when the scheduled counsel suffered a heart attack.

Father Cunningham - who is quoted in my profile - was my Constitutional Law professor in school, and after graduation, I was honored to be able to practice with him and his New Catholic Left associates.........................

[msanthrope]

133. Not so great a job, eh?

Because not only did you manage not to free Mr. Rice, you helped constrict the application of habeas claims vis-a-vis the 4th amendment--which was the easily forseeable outcome of sending the case of a cop-killing bomber from Nebraska to SCOTUS.

Regardless, I'm not seeing how your Nebraska cop-killer has anything to do with Mr. Gates.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

145. Oooops!

Your ignorance keeps you from knowing that facts of the case. Too bad google times out on you.

Otherwise, you might have learned that David Rice is a black man, and the circumstances of his arrest are very troubling.

Yet, you blather here about what happened to a black man.

You really are quite stupid.

But, thanks for the laugh.

I had to come back here and edit this twice, because I couldn't quite grasp the extent of your thickness.

So, it's OK to arrest some black man, but another one - to you - is a "cop-killer"?

Oh, you poor, unhappy thing. You just disappeared, which is good.................................

[msanthrope]

192. Because they are both black, that makes their cases alike?

I get that you are an appellate lawyer, and I get your frustration with lesser mortals daring to opine on the law, because we all know that the only people who should do that are lawyers, right? (See your posts at 12 and 57)

But the thing is that you still haven't made a single reasoned argument as to why the cases you cited have anything to do with Skip Gates. Which tells me that your law professor wasn't as good as mine, Society of Jebus, or not.

What I learned in my first year was that lawyers who cite cases without providing facts and argument are merely being jesuitical. This approach seldom wins actual court cases, but does make for great moot court and amazingly arrogant Internet posts like yours in #s 12 and 57.

* * * * * *

You should not assume that I do not know the facts of Mr. Rice's case--or is it Mr. Langa? He's an adjudicated cop-killer--that's a fact--rightly or wrongly. He is that, in part, because of the choices made by his defense counsel, and his later appellate counsel.

I get why this case bothers you so much--Rice still had a possible appeal with the State after the SCOTUS decision. But apparently, his appellate counsel didn't file timely, perhaps relying on the 8th Circuit's dicta regarding exhaustion. I seem to recall a class or two mentioning how you toll your direct appeal time, but I don't profess to have the knowledge of a learned appellate lawyer. Heck, I even remember a class or two mentioning how federal court action does not affect state court action, but again, you've called me quite stupid.

So stupid I still don't see what David Rice's case has to do with Skip Gates. Other than, as you've pointed out, they are both black.

[Subdivisions]

351. Appellate counsel has placed you on ignore. That's one way to

avoid your challenge.

[frylock]

357. pure pwnage..

you've done your homework! well played.

[omega minimo]

393. "Skip Gates" "Jim CROWley" Well hallelujah there is a god, with a very sick sense of humor

:evilgrin:

[JTFrog]

503. Appellate counsel just got served!

:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

[sabrina 1]

124. The incident should have ended as soon as Gates

showed his ID and the officer knew he was the owner. A decent cop would have apologized, explained why he was there, understood if Gates had been a little peeved at being mistaken for a criminaland Gates would most likely have thanked him.

I don't know why Gates was asked to come outside after that. I haven't read the whole story.

[The Wielding Truth]

178. I agree with you 100%.

[Enthusiast]

187. +1, sabrina 1

The cop allowed his ego to intrude on his judgment. We have examples of LEOs making these poor choices all over the country. It happens every day.

[Statistical]

220. He was asked to come outside so they could arrest him.

Disordely Conduct requires conduct in public. inside house = no public.

[Ysabela]

405. He was asked to go outside because...

Sgt. Jim Crow made a deliberate plan to arrest the professor after already knowing that Prof Gates was in his own home, on bogus charges of public disorderly conduct. Thus, he needed to lure the professor into PUBLIC (i.e. his front porch) in order for his plan to "put him in his place" to work. This wasn't just a spur of the moment thing, Sgt Jim Crow had intent to arrest him for racially motivated reasons, and hatched a scheme in order to do so.

[wisteria]

147. Good points! n/t

[DWilliamsamh]

180. There is one thing in this incident that we know for a fact: The cop is lying

He said in his official report that he arrested Gates after Gates was outside is home. Why are there pictures of Gates being led out of the house in cuffs then? I'm not saying anything, I'm just saying.

And the bottom line is once he showed his ID, (two forms BTW) the police had no legitimate reason for being there anymore. The ONLY words that should have passed between them at that point should have been, "thank you Mr. Gates. I hope you understand we were only doing our job investigating what appeared to one of your neighbors to be someone breaking into your home. You have a nice day." I am sure that had something like that been said - Dr. Gates wouldn't have been asking for the officer's name for any reason but to praise him to his supervisor.

[goclark]

197. That is the way it usually happens ~

Wonder why it didn't happen that way ~:shrug:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

399. No -

the picture shows Gates handcuffed on his front porch, not "being led out of the house."

[DWilliamsamh]

496. There is a pic of him in the doorway, in cuffs.

[dgibby]

211. Best post on any thread about this situation. Thank you!. n/t

[truedelphi]

412. Why can't it be seen as being both?

As that is what it is.

[TahitiNut]

121. What kind of (Constitutionally valid) Disorderly Conduct statute applies to a person ....

... inside their own home and/or on their own property. What "public" interest would be impacted by any alleged behavior under such a statute? AFAIK, disorderly conduct statutes, except where unconstitutionally vague, cite behavior in a public setting where there's a "peace" being disturbed or some protected public activity (meeting, walking, traveling, etc.) being interfered with.

[RaleighNCDUer]

261. We ARE a police state now.

I remember back in the 70s, a guy was pissed as his POS vehicle, he went outside and had at it with a sledgehammer. One of the neighbors, alarmed, called the cops. When the cops got there they just stood on the sidewalk and watched because there is no law that says a person cannot destroy his own vehicle in his own driveway.

But today, backtalking a cop is 'disorderly conduct'?

[msanthrope]

196. This is why people hate lawyers.....

I mean, of course you cite a case you worked on, but could you do it with less condescension?

Give the non-lawyers a break and deign to make your point clearly and without the self-referential aspect....okay, we all know you were a lawyer for a Black Panther 30 years ago, and that's really cool, but it's not helping.

If the OP is wrong, tell him WHY--don't just tell him to read 30-plus years of jurisprudence.

FYI, when you represented David Rice, were you an actual lawyer admitted in the bar of the state and a signatory, or were you helping?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

205. According to her post above

she said "you have disappeared". Which I interpret as she put you on ignore. I know I for one wouldn't want my coucil to ignore someone they were debating. Some lawyer eh?

[msanthrope]

299. There are times when making someone's ignore list

is a badge of honor, because the issue is important enough.

This is one of those times.

I cannot speak to the lawyer's prowess as counsel.

[southshore]

214. Should one accept Supreme Court decisions as final?

First, I fail to see how either case is germane to the situation at hand.

Second, the Supreme Court also upheld and defended slavery at various times in it's history.

[Strong Atheist]

520. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[HughMoran]

308. So you ARE the reincarnation of OldLeftyLawyer

Hmmm, I was wondering if those who suggested this were right.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

311. I am a recincarnation of no one -

I've handled that charge before. Seems like smart and lawyer tend to confuse the sheep. And sheep do tend to titter among themselves, when they've nothing better to do.

Carry on...................

[HughMoran]

312. Well, I think it had more to do with a certain "ass hole" quality

So, I can definitely see the resemblance.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

313. Yes, I'm sure

you're quite versed in the matter of "ass hole".....................

[HughMoran]

314. ...guess we have one thing in common then

It takes one to know one, right?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

395. Wrong -

you brought up the subject - I merely agreed, since you seemed to be so terribly proud of your status.

Congratulations..............

[msanthrope]

479. That's asshole, Esquire, to you.... ; - )

;-)

[kpete]

16. thanks so much

for this post, kp

[timeforpeace]

17. The president himself is all over this. It will be resolved.

[Uzybone]

30. It is already resolved, charges were quickly dropped

legally there is no issue unless Prof Gates decides (and rightfully so) to sue.

This really has nothing to do with the President, millions of black men have seen this script before. Hell you don't have to be black to be outraged that many seem to think its fine for a cop to enter your home uninvited and arrest you for disorderly conduct on your own stoop.

[backscatter712]

82. Yep, except for the lawsuit.

Gates needs to fucking ruin Crowley, sue him out of every last cent he's got, destroy his reputation so he can never be a police officer in any precinct in the country ever again and ensure the only way he can make a living is by flipping burgers.

OK, maybe the flipping-burgers comment is probably untrue. Crowley will probably get a job as a FAKES News commentator...

[BurtWorm]

18. Amen!

:applause:

[GReedDiamond]

19. I'm with ya on this, it's unbelievable the number of cops-run-amok apologists...

...there are here.

It's very discouraging...

[MajorChode]

148. What I find discouraging...

Is the number of people who will always take the exclusive side of those accusing police when it's simply their word and there's nothing else to go on.

Unfortunately Obama made that mistake and it's now costing him politically and will continue to cost him politically at a time when he can least afford it vis-a-vis the health care debate.

[GReedDiamond]

162. Thanks fo puttin me in my place, massa...I'ze apologizes...nt

[MajorChode]

163. Oh no! Not the race card!

Anything but that!

The narrow minded are so predictable.

Have a nice day.

[GReedDiamond]

167. Yeah, you figured it out. Congrats, genius.

[MajorChode]

169. Oh no!

Not a clever repackaging of the old 'I'm rubber, you're glue' line.

Again, predictable.

I'm done here. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Feel free to have the last word. I'm quite sure you will, because you're so....

What's the word?

Ah yes.

Predictable.

Have a nice day.

[GReedDiamond]

171. How many more nice days can I have in one day?

Only "MajorChode" knows.

Is that good enough for you for my predictable last word?

[Enthusiast]

188. It is only costing Obama politically

because of the way it is being framed by the biased MSM. The cop was being stupid. His fragile ego was hurt.

[msanthrope]

198. But we have two things to go on--

The police report itself, and the statement of Professor Gates.

The police report is rife with the kind of dialogue that white people imagine that Black people say, dialogue usually fueled by bad television.

It also is missing something important. As in, an invitation or a reason to enter the property.


We also have Professor Gates' statements.

And I believe him, because after comparing the interviews the two men have given, only one seemed shifty and untruthful. It wasn't Gates.

[MajorChode]

242. There were actually two police reports

And the one from Officer James Figueroa lists some of the identical statements. Officer Figueroa has been reported to be Hispanic and he certainly has a Hispanic name.

[RaleighNCDUer]

264. Got links?

I'm only curious because you said they list some of the identical statement - not 'similar' statements. Whenever you get identical statements is is because one is copying another. There is ALWAYS a variance between legitimate statements. If you have an unrecorded conversation that is more than three words long, and two different people quote it identically, at least one of them is lying.

[MajorChode]

269. thesmokinggun.com

[RayStar]

488. 911 call

I want to hear the phone call in its entirety. The cop should have waited for backup. Isn't that procedure when an unknown number of people are in an enclosed area? Did he question the witness whether the suspects were still inside the home? Did the witness not see luggage and perhaps a logo on the auto?

[MajorChode]

504. Every PD has their own procedures

I remember sometime back in the Dallas area, a cop was fired for cowardice when he didn't proceed alone on a burglary in progress call and instead waited for backup.

Even Gates said he thought the 911 caller was probably doing what she thought was right. Reportedly, she saw someone putting their shoulder through the front door and breaking it in, which is supported by what Gates said happened also.

[Strong Atheist]

519. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[msanthrope]

296. Cops see one color. Blue. Just because someone is Hispanic, it

does not mean they are not prejudiced against Black people.

And having an 'Hispanic' surname does not mean you are Hispanic....

Not all people of color are brothers in arms, see, the second firefighter testifying with Ricci at the Sotomayor hearings....

[MajorChode]

360. How delightfully prejudiced of you to say so

I find it truly touching when someone's police bigotry trumps any racial biases they might have.

Someone else reported Figueroa was Hispanic. He could be a Chinese Buddhist for all I know. There are other black officers on the Cambridge PD who are supporting Crowley, but I'm sure you've already made up your mind about them too.

[Hannah Bell]

427. not to mention, per the police report itself, gates never set foot off the porch or did anything but

"yell".

crap, most of my neighbors should be under arrest.

[clear eye]

491. And Gates credibly denies "yelling", as he has a doctor's report attesting to severe bronchitis

making yellling impossible. The most he could have done was sound quietly short-tempered. From what I've read, my guess is that the good Sgt. did not treat a tired, ill, frazzled homeowner with the benefit of the doubt he would have given a white man "who didn't look like" a burglar, didn't apologize for having to see the ID, but instead rudely demanded it as if the Professor had done something wrong when Crowley was 99.9% sure he hadn't. The Prof explained the situation in detail, including why the door was broken and that he had come home from a trip, the luggage was visible, and he expected that to be the end of it. When Crowley followed Gates inside his home to insist on seeing the ID, which action he must have known was somewhat provocative, he shouldn't have been surprised that, after showing ID, Gates then asked Crowley for his. Again Crowley doesn't seem to have been able to apologize for the necessary unpleasantness to a black man, so the situation remained emotional.

Here's where I speculate a slightly different motive from most of the other posters. I don't believe the motive for the arrest was to push Gates around. I think Sgt. Crowley got a little nervous about how a complaint from the Harvard professor would sound to his boss, what Gates would say happened (remember to a bigot all black men are liars) and refused to answer while furiously thinking what he could do to put himself in a better position. He must have figured if he arrested Gates, any complaint would look like baseless revenge for the arrest. So he became more sullen, insisted that they had to first go to the porch where he could radio the station to okay things, used that radio to call in other officers as witnesses and provoked Gates further in front of them by continuing to refuse to identify himself as MA law demands. When Gates made some angry gesture or other on the porch like shaking his finger at the Sgt., Crowley thought he had the tiny excuse that he and his fellow officers could claim was disorderly conduct and disturbing the peace, and went ahead with the planned arrest.

Since arrests are for criminal behavior, and being out of sorts and insisting on one's legal right to get an LEO's ID are not remotely crimes, I'm as disturbed by the responses justifying Crowley's behavior as the OPer of this thread is.

I guess watching the Constitution used as bathroom tissue for over 8 years, including widespread warrentless wiretapping, seeing the right to assemble and petition the gov't reduced to "free speech zones" far from the intended audience, and hearing about Cheney's plan to use troops stationed in this country to quell "disturbances", has led many to believe it is somehow SOP for agents of the government to abrogate rights and endanger citizens. They've come to see observance of the Constitution as a worthy ideal, but expect it to be more honored in the breach than in practice, and think that only a schoolchild should expect adherence to be enforced--rather like trying to maintain literally the biblical prohibition against bearing false witness right down to abstaining from excuses to bow out of a dinner party. A corollary is that it is the innocent citizens who have to figure out how to avoid trouble no matter the government's behavior.

Since everything I've learned about human nature and government tells me that as ordinary citizens we only have any power to influence important matters in the public sphere that shape our private lives when government agents are limited in fact, not merely in theory, I find this mindset alarming. The more we yield to "might makes right", the harder it becomes to regain the public power that is the soul of the democratic experiment, and that the colonists died for in the American Revolution. It plays an awful lot like how the Chinese must accept their powerlessness and negotiate their lives under the Chinese oligarchy.

[Life Long Dem]

210. Obama doesn't make mistakes

He just says some bitter things people don't want to hear.

But I'm sure they will now!!

[Patiod]

234. I've been thinking a lot about that

My first reaction, during the press conference, was "oh, no, I bet Gibbs and Emmanuel will be all over him for talking like that" He can't afford to alienate all the people who think cops are flawless (an awful lot of white suburbanites, for instance).

Later, I thought about how everyone here (and elsewhere) are constantly complaining that Obama is TOO measured and TOO careful and TOO political all the time, and that he won't throw himself completely behind something we all know is right for fear of not being the Good Mediator. So no he finally speaks up for something that's right, but maybe not popular, and true to form, the press is all over him for an "ill-considered" statement. I was watching on RACHEL MADDOW for God's sake, and the commentators THERE (not exactly Faux "News") were saying that he would probably regret his statement.

But over time, I've become more convinced that he did the right thing speaking up for his friend, and for a cause that has affected him personally over the years (and one he worked on in Illinois). And it IS stupid to arrest a person in his own home merely for expressing the opinion - that the cops was racist.

I thought that's the Freedom that those "Freedom isn't free" bumper sticker people were fighting for.

[RaleighNCDUer]

255. Yes, there really should have been someone there with a camera

as there was with the OK ambulance incident. And Rodney King incident. And the Oakland subway incident.

Isn't it curious that 9 of 10 times the cops are found to be lying, and the victim/witness is telling the truth?

What I find discouraging is the number of people who believe anything the cops say without video evidence.

[MajorChode]

273. There was someone there with a camera

In one of the arrest photographs, there is clearly an officer present holding a video camera. There's also audio recordings of the police transmissions.

And still the Cambridge Police Commissioner fully supports the officers' actions. I wonder why.

And I don't find it curious that "9 out of 10 times the cops are found to be lying, and the victim/witness is telling the truth" because nothing in that statement even approaches reality.

[Hannah Bell]

429. if the video is so good, why did they drop the charges, cho-de?

[MajorChode]

452. Because it was a charge punishable by a $40 fine

I have no idea what's on the video or the audio recordings. Nobody does except the Cambridge PD and they seem to be convinced by it enough to completely support Crowley.

So are you going to pretend you know what's on it, like you pretend to know everything else?

[HughMoran]

316. Fuck that - Obama is right and you're just 100% wrong on this

Your cowardly stance on this makes me angry.

[1monster]

331. Except... the charges were dropped and the Mayor apologized even if the

police officer is still trying to protect his image by screaming that he was in the right.

That's quite sufficient to make a judgement as to who has more veracity.

[malletgirl02]

20. I agree

I have to admit I didn't expect this mindset from DUers at all.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

21. Obedience to authority

Disgusting

K&R

[Egalitariat]

23. I read it was outside his home and was for Disorderly Conduct related to a tirade

directed at the officer. I haven't heard it was inside his home after he calmly handed over his ID.

[Triana]

24. I love that they unrecommend threads such as this one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6133190&mesg_id=6133190

And damn near every other topic I post.

That's the problem with the "negative" recommend function. It becomes a nasty little way to just "bitchslap" those threads posted by someone you don't like personally (regardless the topic). It turns into playground bully tool that's used by people with incredibly juvenile mentalities.

[Maru Kitteh]

161. You overestimate yourself, and by that, I mean your *self*.

I'm inclined to believe your posts are unrecced on their merits, as I suspect most DU'ers have never heard of you.

[Triana]

179. "merit" = the functional equivalent of a bitchslap from any self-righteous ass ...

... with a differing opinion or a nasty grudge they're carrying that they want to act upon. It's a system rife with and ripe for abuse.

We don't like that kind of treatment from Freepers online or IRL, but it's A-OK from other DUers and we call that a "merit" system?

INTERESTING! Pfft. :thumbsdown:

[sendero]

25. The collective IQ..

... of this board has been dropping like a stone the last couple of years. Morons parrot the right wing talking points as if they believe them. You have to have be one dumb son of a bitch to buy into these points, but apparently lots of morons here do.

I find myself using "fool", "idiot" and "moron" in many of my replies. It's getting tedious. People who think you should get arrested for yelling are simpering douchebags. Period.

[Amonester]

26. Yeah but the a-hole cop is an "expert" u know?

F**k him and ALL other arrogant a-holes like him, Fk em. And this is not about race.

[Hekate]

27. KnR. It's kind of stunning, isn't it? I thought the Prez was pretty restrained in his answer,frankly

[ellie]

28. Yes, it's very depressing.

[Duckhunter935]

29. I was not going to dignify this

After having spent over 20 years in the military working along side all races. I really am offended that you automatically call me a racist if all I have posted is that I would like to have more facts before I make a snap judgment like some. More than likely both sides did some stupid things and I hope that a full impartial investigation will clear this up. The only thing that I have seen that is legal is a sworn statement from the officer in question. That gives me enough to pause in that there were many witnesses of different races and one way or the other truth should come out.

spelling

[sendero]

39. You might not be a racist...

... it's entirely possible that you are just not that bright.

[Duckhunter935]

40. Thank you, that raises the level of the dialog

And makes my point for me.

[sendero]

43. I'm not interested in trying to ..

... "raise the level of dialog" with morons. This is cut and dried and if you don't get it you are a drooling fool.

[Duckhunter935]

48. Yes I get it, thank you again for calling me a "moron"

and also "not that bright". I assumed one could disagree without name calling but I am sorry that I am wrong about that.

Have a good evening.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

63. Duckhunter935,

you've made reasonable points, and you've handled yourself with dignity.

I love DU, but there is a rabid tendency towards kneejerk reactions before people know the facts. It's unfortunate, and it shows the vast intolerance that still possesses so many who fancy themselves to be of a liberal bent.

That said, you should have seen this place during the Duke lacrosse rape escapade. Those of us who maintained that "innocent until proven guilty" should be in play were treated pretty much as you've been treated here - although not as nicely.

Once the truth came out, that the lady alleging rape was a liar, the silence here was deafening. And there were no apologies.

See, there are weasels on both sides, not just on the freeper side.

In any event, well done............

[TorchTheWitch]

233. particularly when it comes to cops

There is no question that this place is chock full of rabid cop haters, and it's no surprise that regardless of what is known or how little is known the cop will get full blame here every time.

[MUAD_DIB]

403. Sometimes it is justifiable for the cop to get the bad press.

When cops get caught tasering little old ladies, arresting children and shooting handcuffed individuals then it is fair to point that out.

This whole Gates/Crowley affair hasn't been resolved yet except for in the minds of the DU crazies who want blood.

[Yavin4]

44. First, Of All, I didn't Even Bring Up Race In This Post

Nor did I call anyone a racist. The OP was about my alarm at the fact that so many DUers like yourself are comfortable with the police arresting someone in their own home after they've shown ID.

Both sides my ass.

[Duckhunter935]

50. Yes that was my mistake

and I apologize in responding to you but some other posters are saying things like that.

I have seen a sworn statement from one of the sides in this and would like to se the other side if you could point me to it.

[MUAD_DIB]

109. But unless you condemn the arresting officer you're as guilty as he is.

:sarcasm:


There is apparently going to be a further look into the arrest of Gates. The truth will come out.

[RaleighNCDUer]

270. Stupid is as stupid does - and a person in his own home has every

right to be just as stupid as he wants. The officer, representing the City of Cambridge and the State of Massachusetts, has NO right to go into that person's house and be stupid.

[Mythsaje]

31. I hadn't realized it had devolved to that point...

But there are enough "law and order" Democrats here on DU to make that a distinct possibility. I never take authority's word for anything, but I'm funny that way. Abuse of authority is one of my biggest hot-buttons, period.

[MlleCatherine]

32. "Racist" cop gave mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to Reggie Lewis

Read the article in Boston Herald. http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1186567

[Yavin4]

37. It Doesn't Fucking Matter If He Found A Cure for Cancer

He violated a citizen's constitutional rights, and just because he gave mouth to mouth to someone, that does not mean that he's not a racist.

[Yavin4]

38. It Doesn't Fucking Matter If He Found A Cure for Cancer

He violated a citizen's constitutional rights, and just because he gave mouth to mouth to someone, that does not mean that he's not a racist.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. I don't think the cop was a racist

I think the neighbors who called the cops are guilty of racism. The cop is guilty of being stupid. He should have walked away instead of cuffing Gates.

[EFerrari]

93. I do. Did you see the thread where he is quoted as saying

Gates had a bad tone?

[MajorChode]

151. Excellent point. Clearly the cop was accusing him of having no rhythm

[EFerrari]

191. Clearly the cop had no rational reason for arresting Gates

and has to resort to racist dog whistles. But, nice going, minimizing this one. Well done!

[MajorChode]

"Bad tone" is a "racist dog whistle"?

That's a new one on me.

Is there a listing of these I can reference somewhere? There must be many more of which I'm unaware.

[slampoet]

250. When is the last time a 58 year old whtie person was suspected of being a Burglar in your 'hood?

[Mattylock]

394. That's my assessment as well.

[Strong Atheist]

518. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. A FREAKIN MEN

I have been on these threads all day and still can't believe it. I am reading some of the same crap here that the wingnuts are posting on their blogs.

[Cassandra]

34. I have thought since I heard about it...

that as soon as he produced ID that showed that he lived there, the policeman should have backed off. He didn't have to apologize but he should have acknowledged that there had been a report that he was responded to and that clearly Gates was not who he was looking for. AND THEN LEFT! No matter what Gates said. It's not illegal to direct a complaint to a police officer or to ask for his badge number.

BTW, I'm white, if that matters.

[Starry Messenger]

35. I suspect it's Stockholm Syndrome from the Bush years.

I've read several posts here about this issue that sounded exactly like RW posts about the Patriot Act.

[tj2001]

The Trooper Is Your Friend. Obey Him At All Times. We Owe Our Life and Freedom To Him

And Teach Your Children The Same Thing

[me b zola]

49. Is that sarcasm?

Sorry, my sarcasm meter is in the shop, needs a little tune up. Sooo...sarcasm?

[Spazito]

55. I thought, sadly it wasn't sarcasm but..

after reading this OP, I am very sure now it was!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6134956&mesg_id=6134956

Edited to correct my original impression.

[seabeyond]

62. put a chip in the head, be a zombie and move on.... pathetic. n/t

[Spazito]

68. The poster was using sarcasm...

I suspect he/she thought it was clear enough a sarcasm smilie wasn't necessary. After reading an OP by the poster, I have NO doubt the comment was meant to be sarcastic.

[seabeyond]

97. wooosh. cause that is scary.

i used fuck tonight and had a poster ask if i kiss my children with that mouth. wtf.... so no, tonight i would not be surprised with anything.

[Spazito]

127. LOL, yep, tonight is another one of the "one for the books" night for sure...

I am going from :wow: to :puke: to :yourock: repeatedly depending which thread, which post I read!

[seabeyond]

129. bah hahaha. that is funny. yup. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

274. You type with your mouth?

Weird.

[seabeyond]

277. took me a minute to get it, lol . ya, lots of life wierd. hm. nt

[seabeyond]

52. fuck that shit. i tell my kids to beware adn dont trust. sheeeit

surely you jest

[Karenina]

42. "Alarmed?' No, not at all. I take racists at their word.

It's a survival skill one learns growing up black in white Amurikkka.

They are oblivious to the knapsacks they carry and are laser focused on the n***** who didn't ak right when da PO-lice invaded his space.

[KamaAina]

45. Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much)!

This has been yet another one of those things that make me wonder whether this is really a progressive board at all.

[Greyhound]

46. "It's just a goddamn piece of paper".

The steady and consistent diminution of civil rights has gone so far I'm not sure we have any inviolate rights to anything anymore. And yes, there are more than a few "Democrats" that see nothing wrong with it.

[David Zephyr]

47. K&R.

Thanks. The right perspective: he was in his own home. Period. End of the matter. Thanks for the thread!

[Cha]

51. From what I see..

it's the usual suspects who see a chance to rag on Obama via Gates.

[Zavulon]

53. Although I agree with you, I and everyone else could have done without the condescending lecture.

It's a discussion board, for fuck's sake. If everyone here agreed on everything, I'd find it way too boring to visit.

[Duckhunter935]

56. Yep

[hfojvt]

168. you must be joking

the condescending tone was the best (most beloved) part. We live to cast asparagus at perceived enemies. We believe in love, tolerance and understanding for everybody - except the Sharks (our rival gang) of course, and even worse, the Shark-symps here and Sharks in Jet clothing here.

[Fumesucker]

54. Are you so damn paranoid about crime that you're willing to live in a goddamn police state?

Yes, a lot of them are.

SATSQ

[bertman]

58. My mindset is that the President of the United States has an obligation to avoid

commenting on an incident like this during a national press conference--especially after admitting that he really knows very little about the incident and one of the people involved is a personal friend. That's the kind of bullshit I would have expected from George Dubya Bush, but never, in a million years, from President Obama.

My mindset is that accepting one aggrieved party's story because he is a famous black man who claims to have been a victim of racial profiling without hearing all the evidence, is biased and narrow-minded in the extreme.

My mindset is that a police officer, regardless of his/her race or sex, who is responding to a report of a break-in deserves respect from the person whose home he is trying to protect.

My mindset is that those who use their supposedly well-informed opinion to belittle and denigrate others who disagree with them, are using tactics employed by demagogues and tyrants.

[LisaL]

59. Add to that Obama is friends with Dr. Gates.

It's not particularly smart for Obama to comment on the incident regarding the person he knows, and calling the police stupid, while admitting he doesn't know all the facts.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

67. When he said "stupidly,"

I remembered that he's a lawyer who never litigated, never handled a criminal case, never had to represent an aggrieved client.

He showed his inexperience on that one, for sure..........................

[Tangerine LaBamba]

66. bertman -

you have one hell of a lot of nerve, behaving intelligently and with reserve and caution.

How DARE you demand all the facts?

Don't you know that we're supposed to knee-jerk ourselves onto one side and stay there, regardless of the fact that we don't know the whole story?

Damn you, bertman!!! You're screwing up the whole wave of indignation.

Remember the Duke lacrosse rape case?

Ah, those were the days. A lynch mob came THIS close to being organized.

Now, SNAP OUT OF IT!

(and take a bow........)

[bertman]

79. Funny that you mention the Duke lacrosse rape case. I live a few miles from Durham

and got to see first hand the hysterical reaction to that situation. Very scary stuff.

I bow. To your way with words. Thank you.

[hfojvt]

173. you are not very popular around here - are you?

Me neither, but I don't think you have to know very much about the case to know that the arrest was stupid.

[bertman]

307. I learned a long time ago that being popular

often comes at the cost of not speaking one's mind when one disagrees with the opinions others are expressing.

I'm more worried about being able to look myself in the mirror, than whether someone else likes what I have to say.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. I might have been surprised a few weeks back

But after the double standards I saw toward Michael Jackson's family, my view of the prejudice level of vast swaths of DU were altered forever. Between the racists who don't know it, and the homophobes who think they don't show it, surprise is not what I am feeling.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

64. CNN aired Gates mug shot today...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

I felt humiliation for Prof. Gates. I can't even imagine the injustice he was feeling.

[Indydem]

65. Perhaps you should read up.

The Fourth Amendment does not protect a homeowner from arrest in the open spaces surrounding his home of where is no reasonable expectation of privacy.

Gates was on his front stoop when arrested. He followed the officer out of the home berating him and causing a public disturbance.

Once he crossed the threshold of the home, his Forth Amendment rights evaporated. Even Gates knew that, it is why he did not go out onto the stoop when first approached by the officer. If he had not gotten so irate, and would have instead have kept his head about him and not left his home, he would never have been arrested.

End of story.

[likesmountains 52]

74. so, it's his own fault because he got mad and didn't "keep his head" ? Oy

[HughMoran]

101. Hey, we got one of 'em here!

Heh, let's see you talk your bullshit now.

[RaleighNCDUer]

281. What does 'expectation of privacy' have to do with it?

It's HIS property. If he can legitimately shoot a trespasser in his yard, doesn't that undercut your argument that he's only safe INSIDE his house?

What the FUCK?

[Indydem]

286. Take it up with the SCOTUS.

They have held that position in several cases. You have no right to privacy outside your home unless shielded by a fence or shrubbery. I don't make the decisions, I just report them.

And the idea that he could shoot a trespasser on his lawn is assinine. Where do you formulate your legal opinions from?

[RaleighNCDUer]

322. That doesn't answer the question - what does 'privacy' have to do with anything?

He was on his own property, and doing nothing illegal. Where does 'privacy' even come into it?

[WeDidIt]

70. Dude, the SCOTUS fucked us on the 4th Amendment long ago

Gates may be able to get some sort of settlement in a civil case because of his high profile, bit this shit goes on all the time and nothing ever happens to the cops.

[omega minimo]

388. Well, there's that.....

:hi:

[lexanman]

76. Don't be alarmed

I have been commenting and replying back all day to points. I see the same points, in fact at another well known site that begins with a F and end with a C. They are almost word for word. That Obama should shut up. That Gates wouldn't have been so "uppity" if it was a black cop, which is irrelevant because that was not what happened. Then they ignore the main point that the cop arrested Gates AFTER he showed ID. They defend this saying Gates was loud and ranting and deserved it. These literally are word for word responses over at f**********c. I am amazed really, that there are so many and they have free reign on this website. I thought this was a progressive place.

[bottomofthehill]

88. School ID

The problem may have been that he shoued the officer a school ID. There are plenty of Douche Bag cops, but I am not sure that this guy is one of them. They both may have had a bad day that got a whole lot worse when they crossed each others paths, but there looks to be a little blame for both. i dont think this is as one sided as people would want to have it.

[lexanman]

92. Im trying to be respectful

he also showed his driver's license. He was positively ID'd as the person who lived there. Right at that point, the cop had no business being there are longer and should have left. He' didn't. He arrested Gates for a bogus charge which was later dropped because it was bogus. Gates did nothing legally wrong to deserve to be arrested. They don't both have blame. Gates did nothing legally wrong, yet was arrested.


I could repeat that a thousand times and someone would still reply that Gates was ranting and deserved it. Its very frustrating when people purposefully and intentionally miss the point. A court of law won't, and the Cambridge police dept better start lawering up if they have half a brain cell.

[bottomofthehill]

106. thank you for the tone of the response

The officer left the house and Doctor Gates also left the house. The arrest occurs outside of the home in front of many people. Neighbors, police officers and others. The both had the ability to deescalate the situation and neither chose to. That does not make one a horrible racist, it may just make him a cop having a shitty day, and a big shot from Harvard making it a little shittier. It seems to have a lot to do with Hubris on both sides of the arrest.

[lexanman]

122. you are right, the arrest did happen outside the house.

It wasn't the responsibility of Gates to deescalate the situation. It was the officers. That is what he is paid to do. The point, and I will make it again, is that Mr. Gates did nothing legally wrong to get arrested for. That is the point a court will look at. Can you address the point that Gates did nothing legally wrong to be arrested for? Im leaving out the racism part now.

It is purely a legal question. Did Gates do something legally wrong to be arrested for?

[bottomofthehill]

140. Not a lawyer or a cop, but I will take a shot at it

A disorderly person is defined as one who:

with purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or
recklessly creates a risk thereof
engages in fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or
creates a hazard or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose.

When Dr Gates left the house and continued to confront the Officer in front of a crowd of people, the officer thought he could get away with the bullshit charge of Disorderly COnduct. He had witnesses, and Dr Gates was out of the house, in a public place. Public Inconvenience and annoyance are pretty broad terms that leave enough room to be a dickhead if you choose to be.

Again I have to say, the ego of the two of these people put them in this situation. Is one more right than the other, most likely. The cop could have kept walking, but fat chance of that happening once outside in front of other law enforcement and neighbors and Dr Gates, a Harvard professor acting like an asshat. I would lean toward Dr Gates on this but they both seem like asses in this situation to me.

THe officer should have let one of the other officers deal with the situation once he was emotionally involved so he is in the wrong by a shade on this. It may well be more to do with Harvard vrs Townie, than black and white.

[lexanman]

142. he did not confront the officer

he asked again for his identification and badge number. Ego, feelings and emotions mean nothing in a court of law. The cop should have kept walking but did not. He falsely arrested Mr Gates. Period. They both could have been irate and upset and yelling and whatever.

The point is he was falsely arrested, and in court, Mr Gates is going to win.

Also when the facts come out on this I think people are going to change their stance on Mr Gates asting like an "asshat", not that it matters whether he was or not legally.

I appreciate you replying but you are rehashing emotions and supposed yelling

I asked pretty clearly did you think Mr Gates did anything to be arrested for.

All it takes is yes, and this is why....

or no, and this is why......

[bottomofthehill]

149. Did I think he did anything he should be arrested for ... NO ...but

Massachusetts code, (see below) left him in a position that the officer could and did make the arrest.

disturbers of the peace (again see below) left Dr Gates in a position that he could be arrested. There seem to be enough witnesses (cops and others) that they can make a decision about the supposed yelling.

By the way, there are a lot of things that people get arrested for that I dont agree with ( pot, assisted suicide, mandatory sentencing for crack but not coke) BUT THAT IS NOT REALLY THE QUESTION.

Did Dr Gates commit an irrefutable act, it seems so by the police reports, and we will see what the eye witnesses say. Would I have made the Gomer Pyle "Citizens Arrest" if I was there, Hell No!

Smart guy Harvard Professor should know better. So Should Smart Guy Cop.

As a kid from North Cambridge, I stand on my original, they are both asshats





PART IV. CRIMES, PUNISHMENTS AND PROCEEDINGSIN CRIMINAL CASES


TITLE I. CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS


CHAPTER 272. CRIMES AGAINST CHASTITY, MORALITY, DECENCY AND GOOD ORDER


Chapter 272: Section 53. Penalty for certain offenses


Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

[lexanman]

156. cool

then when it does go to court and the CPD gets their asses sued off and the officer suspended, you should have no problem with that.

I looked at that code. wow. Sad. The criminal code, state and federal level really needs to be taken apart then. With that language anybody, and I mean anybody can be considered a criminal, very literally. It is no suprise we have more people in prison than any other nation on earth percentage wise and number wise.

[bottomofthehill]

231. Not so sure cop gets suspended or Dr Gates wins the law suit

The language makes it very difficult to win a law suit. The people of Cambridge loose both by the public black eye it is getting and the money it will spend defending a lawsuit form two hotheads.

[sabrina 1]

301. The issue is simple

Up to the point where Gates produced his ID showing he was not a criminal, but the owner of the home, the cop was doing his duty. After that point, he more than abused the authority WE THE PEOPLE have given him.

Gates was rightfully angry at being considered a criminal. He asked for the officer's ID, a perfectly legal request which the cop should have complied with. Or is there some hidden code now that citizens, who are THE EMPLOYERS of law enforcement, a fact long since forgotten in this 'law and order' state we now live in, dare not ask one of their employees to identify themselfes?

Gates was angry, OMG, a justifiably angry citizen! Arrest him!!

No wonder we have lurched so rapidly towards being an oppressive police state where in court, a cop 'is never wrong' and our jails are filled with non-violent citizens.

No need to assume racism, it is 'arrogant cop mentality' in a country where cops have been trained to believe that no one dare question them and they have completely forgotten who they work for, just like our politicians.

Add to that a frightened population, more than willing to tolerate oppression and to support a 'law and order' society, completely oblivious to the meaning of a free society, always giving the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement (ask any lawyer about juries' response to testimony from a cop) and throw their fellow citizens in jail. This fear is creating a climate where cops believe they are 'God' and citizens are their inferiors. I know they have a tough job and I also know many good, decent cops. But cops like this get the good ones a bad name, and citizens who support them are not helping the good cops.

And for the record, I was on the side of 'innocent until proven guilty' in the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case and took quite a bit of abuse for that position, right here on DU for attempting to point out some serious flaws in the so-called evidence, not to mention the exculpatory evidence that was available to those not too blind to see.

A cop in most countries in the rest of the civilized world, would have provided his ID when asked for it and then left, as up to that point he had nothing to fear even if there was a complaint. Any sensible cop would have understood how a respected citizen could be angered by finding himself in the situation Gates was in.

As for the racism charge, I don't see any evidence of that in the cop's behavior, this is how some cops behave period. And since we know nothing about the neighbor who reported the 'break-in', it's hard to say if there was any there.

But we don't need racism to see that the cop was clearly wrong, his behavior WAS stupid, as the results of it are proving and Gates had every right to ask for his ID and to be angry at what happened to him. An understanding of that on the part of the cop, an explanation that he was just responding to a call, would have resulted in a very different outcome.

[freebrew]

408. What no one seems to be addressing..

the officer should have given him the information he requested. Name and Badge number.
Isn't it the obligation of the police to identify themselves?

It sounds like(and I KNOW there are more sides than this) Mr. Gates was only asking for information that should be readily available, and should have been given to him. Was the officer in question afraid to do that?

The easiest way to diffuse the situation was to oblige a legal request by a citizen.

[noiretextatique]

323. are you aware that the charges were dropped?

if the arrest was the appropriate response, why were the charges dropped the very next day?

[barbtries]

181. hubris is not a criminal offense

only one of them had a gun, a badge and handcuffs. what that one did was a travesty. he should lose his gun and his badge and see what it's like living on hubris.

[harmonicon]

225. +1!

[bottomofthehill]

232. No but Disorderly Conduct (what he got arrested for is)

If he stayed in the house, he would not have been arrested. he had to come out and show his Harvard Superiority. I still say, pair of asshats

[Occulus]

292. nevermind

I can't word things properly right now...

[HughMoran]

319. If you're a fucking Nazi it is

Only a nazi would argue that a cop can come into a man's house, provoke him, then arrest him for disorderly conduct.

[Leontius]

338. I agree that the arrest was an overreaction

but please explain the what provocation was. Was it There has been a call of a suspected breakin who are you and can I see some identification?, was that the provocation or are you just acting own your own predetermined opinion, your predjudice?

[HughMoran]

347. The fact that he arrested Gates means that he necessarily provoked him

There is no way in the world that Gates would have been arrested if his home wasn't invaded by the police officer. Invade my domicile? You better be prepared to take some shit and deal with it. The cop fucked up big time.

[Leontius]

361. I see a cop responds to a call and thats provocation

thats home invasion, good to know. I think I'll try to get a rehearing of my last driving violation since the cop must have been provocative by asking for my license and registration and then having the balls to actually give me a ticket after accosting me like that. Oh the horror of a police state, damn the Gestapo how dare they.

[HughMoran]

365. SO you're acting like a single corpuscle

...trying to relate an action on a public road to a cop coming into your home and arresting you?

There's no talking to people like you - you're wrong but you'll never admit it. And you're new so I assume you signed up here just to make the point for your cop friend. G'bye, you won't be missed.

[bottomofthehill]

385. This response is exactly what causes the problem

Only a Nazi would argue........ the kind of rhetoric that would cause someone to respond in kind to escalate the situation. Instead, I will go with, Disorderly is the most common arrest in the US. It is a cover all for many cops. The charge is often dropped (usually when a person of means and privilege, which Dr Gates is, upper class Harvard professor) is involved.

There are many points when this situation could have beed handled differently on both sides and neither Dr Gates or the Officer chose to blink. Now, one officer is thought of as a raciest , bigot and nazi and a Harvard Professor suffered public humiliation. Again, I think this has more to do with the Harvard vs Townie thing and misplaced pride (hubris) as it does anything else.

[LongTomH]

80. Right! Fucking! On!!!!!!

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[TexasObserver]

83. Yes, it's appalling that some still don't get it.

[raventattoo]

84. K&R

from a Texas white boy

Obama was right on in saying the cop acted "stupidly"

[doc03]

85. I would hope if someone was suspected to be breaking into

my house and the police were called that the officer would ask whoever he found at my door for his ID. If it was me I would show him my ID not start demanding his name and badge number. By him demanding the officers name and badge number it sounds to me like he may have had a little chip on his shoulder himself. If someone was breaking into a house around here the county Sheriff's Deputy may show up the next morning if you are lucky. Sounds like a pretty quick responding police force to me, he should feel fortunate.

[Davis_X_Machina]

107. The cop was looking for an excuse to make a collar...

...on "Contempt of Cop". He got called bad things, and needed to make somebody pay, and he found a way. He tells Gates that if he wants his name and badge number he has to step out on the porch. Why?

Because Mass' disorderly conduct law requires the conduct be 'public'. (G.L. 272 §53) If Gates doesn't step onto the porch, he can't be arrested.

[doc03]

146. Why didn't Gates just show him his ID as asked, case closed?

Like I said he should be thankful he has a good police force. A cop shows up at a house someone reports is being robbed and a guy is inside the house it seems that asking for the guys ID would be appropriate. What exactly did Gates say? Maybe he gave him a belligerent attitude I don't know I wasn't there and nither were you. What if the cop showed up 2 hours later, Gates would have complained about the slow response I suppose. I have been pulled over many times for traffic violations and I have learned when the officer asked for my ID I don't ask him for his name and badge number. The officers name and badge number will be on the ticket if he gives you one. I learned if you are caught breaking the law that if you treat the officer like a human many times he just lets you off with a warning. If you start giving him a line of BS about your gas pedal sticking or a smart ass attitude you will get a ticket no matter what your race happens to be.

[EFerrari]

166. He did show them two pieces of ID. And they weren't satisfied. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

294. I wager when YOU got pulled over the cops never asked you

'where are you going?' 'What're you doing around here this time of night?' 'Is this YOUR vehicle?'

Cops can be as belligerent and insulting as they like because they know they can get away with it. If an officer threw that shit at me, I'd ask for HIS ID too.

And that is what Gates faced - an officer that was not treating him as a homeowner, but as a suspect of color. And I'm SURE it is not the first time it has happened to him.

Not to rehash it for the 1000th time, but Gate DID show him his ID, but that did NOT change Crowley's attitude. After being dissed by Gates he had to put Gates in his place - whether it was essentially racial or essentially authoritarian is up in the air, but one is not any better excuse than the other.

[doc03]

484. Yes I have been asked "were are you going" and

I have also been asked "what are you doing out this time of night". I work shift work and was stopped a few times late at night and was asked those questions. I pass a bar just outside of town about 1/4 miles from a main highway on my way to work. This spring after entering that highway
and traveling about 1/4 mile I was pulled over. First the cop asked me for my drivers licence and registration and I gave them to him. The cop said he pulled me over because he claimed he saw me weaving, I said maybe I dodged a pothole. He asked me where I was going and if I had come out of the that bar. He didn't ask me if it was my car he had my registration and licence in his hand. I wouldn't be surprised if I was in a richer part of town if he would have asked me what I was doing around here this time of night. I told him I was going to work, he asked me where I worked and I told him. He then gave me my licence and registration said have a nice night. The simple fact was he pulled me over because he thought I came out of the bar and was looking for a DWI arrest. The officer had absolutely no reason to pull me over I wasn't weaving or breaking any traffic laws. The only reason he stopped me I was driving my old work car and he basically profiled me as being a drunk because of the car. If you have an older car it is like a magnet for cops, a lot of drunks do drive old cars and they are an easy target(poor folks can't pay a lawyer to fight the charge).

on edit: I can understand if I would have been black I may have thought he pulled me over for being black. I think that cop pulled me over because with the old car I fit the drunk profile. In that case I think many people would have been pissed off and made a big deal about being pulled over for nothing and it could have easily escalated into something more serious. I don't think any harm was done to me. Myself I don't mind the inconvenience if that is what it takes to get drunks off the road.

[RaleighNCDUer]

287. It didn't start with him demanding his name and badge number.

It started with the COP accusing HIM of being the burglar. Despite the fact that he is a slight, rather frail middle-aged man who walks with a cane. He told the officer who he was, and looking at him, hearing him speak, there is no reason for the officer NOT to believe him - how many elderly, sickly, highly educated men are burglars?

Gates reacted to the officer's assumption that a black man would not be the homeowner in that neighborhood. Of COURSE he was pissed.

If Crowley had addressed him respectfully in the first place it ALL would have been avoided.

[donheld]

87. fuck yea

[mistertrickster]

89. According to the police, he didn't show ID. So it just depends which story one believes.

I tend to side with Gates, but the only people that know are the people involved.

Apparently, there was a video tape shot from a squad car. Interesting that it hasn't been released.

[bottomofthehill]

95. according to the Police he showed a Harvard ID

He did show an ID but it was a school ID. I got to tell ya, a Harvard ID pretty much labels you as an asshat in Cambridge, Black, White or other, your an asshole

[RaleighNCDUer]

295. But it is, nonetheless, a PHOTO ID. With his name on it.

And as Crowley was responding to a burglary call he knew the address and the home owner's name.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DID HE NEED?

[Davis_X_Machina]

108. According to which of the two differing police reports?

A bit of ex-post-facto tidying?

[seabeyond]

112. i have only been shown one report, of course from the oh so innocent policeman

even though you could see from his report, his intent was not to defuse the situation, but bring gates outside so he would have cause to arrest him. leaving me to not believe anything the man says, seeing how he is not playing it straight. oh.... and per the officer, gates tone was bothersome

[MUAD_DIB]

111. Hopefully it will be reviewed and either clear Gates or the officer...

or both. :crazy:

[HughMoran]

98. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You

I can't believe I spent like 100 posts arguing with someone who thinks cops should be allowed to barge into a mans house and arrest him. Shocking to say the least.

[ClayZ]

99. K and R

[orleans]

104. i also find it rather disturbing.

i guess people are, overall, comfortable with having a police state--where you can have a "bad tone" (does that mean gates was disgusted? sarcastic?) and then get fucking handcuffed in your own house!

[MUAD_DIB]

113. Seems to me if you went off on a cop in the 1970s you might have fared worse

for wear. Maybe not.

[autorank]

114. Amendments 4 & 1 You are so on target

Constitutionalists out there knew what Obama was talking about. He didn't have to say anything.

There should be no disagreement here on the correctness of Obama's interpretation. It was "stupid" behavior, period.

Who could say otherwise.

Only someone who could explain the reality of arresting someone for a minor crime in their own home, a crime that involved being in that home and being disorderly.

[bottomofthehill]

119. That would be right if he was arrested in his home

He followed the officer outside. THey both had the chance to stand down and neither did. Now, the city will spend thousands defending a lawsuit. They both had the chance to stop this.

[autorank]

123. Why are you defending this officer - he has no respect for any fundamental rights

A person's home is his/her castle. The officer is on a giant ego trip - not presenting any ID. He intruded in the home. There was no reason to investigate.

"The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his Harvard University identification and his valid Massachusetts driver’s license to the officer. Both include Professor Gates’ photograph, and the license includes his address."
http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

This is total nonsense. Too bad if the city has to defend a law suit. They should lose and lose big if they're not smart enough to deal with this. Gates was at home. He became agitated when the cop came in. The officer was not professional

"Professor Gates then asked the police officer if he would give him his name and his badge number. He made this request several times. The officer did not produce any identification nor did he respond to Professor Gates’ request for this information. After an additional request by Professor Gates for the officer’s name and badge number, the officer then turned and left the kitchen of Professor Gates’ home without ever acknowledging who he was or if there were charges against Professor Gates. As Professor Gates followed the officer to his own front door, he was astonished to see several police officers gathered on his front porch. Professor Gates asked the officer’s colleagues for his name and badge number. As Professor Gates stepped onto his front porch, the officer who had been inside and who had examined his identification, said to him, “Thank you for accommodating my earlier request,” and then placed Professor Gates under arrest. He was handcuffed on his own front porch."
http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

I hope the city loses big on this. I remember that kidnapped baby or whatever a few years ago when "a black man was suspected" - wrong. I remember the city arresting the "Aquateen Hungerforce" folks and literally holding them hostage for ransom from the film company for silly displays around the city that a sixth grader could id as decorations.

I don't care if it's Boston versus Cambridge, etc. The attitude toward the Constitution and race is wrong in this instance and the others. NO RESPECT whatsoever.

Obama was right - this was "stupid" behavior - and he was right to say it.

[bottomofthehill]

128. No respect for any fundamental rights......a little much dont you think

Look, there are two sides to every story and both of these grown men had the chance to calm the situation down, neither one of them chose to.

The arrest report tells one side of the story : (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html )

Dr Gates Lawyer tells the other side ( http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr )

My bet is that the truth is somewhere in the middle and two adults could have and should have found a much better way to deal with it. It would have only taken one of them to swollow a little pride and we would be talking about healthcare.

I am not defending the officer, actually I think they both have huge ego's and acted like asses.

[autorank]

153. One of them owned the home and anothe didn't

That's the deal here. The guy was in his house, had gone around to the back dore, was with the driver that brought him there. It was his property, by all rights. He's in his sixties - how many guys in their sixties bring luggage and a driver to do a B&E.

The "two sides" to every story is an old cannard. There are multiple sides. Shades of gray etc. Two sides - only with amoeba;) So the homeowner got hot. Why wouldn't he.

If you have a business and you screw up to any degree, even if there are mitigating factors, you apologize. Those are the strongest words around, "I'm sorry." Takes the edge off. Policing is a profession, a public service. This guy was wrong in his approach. This is the kinger gentler side of what you see routinely at demonstrations - the beat down and the lies to support it, to wit St. Paul's claimed big demonstration that was not which justified all the police antics.

Citizens don't have to be perfect to get their rights, they just have to be right. Gates was that on that day.

[Indydem]

290. It is semantics, but Gates doesn't own the home. Harvard does. n/t

[autorank]

377. Right, one is a resident of the home, the other isn't. n/t

Same thing in terms of your rights unless BushCo stripped renters or other legit forms of residency of the basic rights of privacy and domain;)

[sabrina 1]

492. There are two sides to every story, a right side and a wrong side

From what is already known about this case, it looks like the professor is on the right side, being that he proved who he was, that he was the legal resident of the house, after which the officer simply had to say 'I'm sorry, but you understand we did receive a call that the home was being burglerized. Clearly that was a mistake'. After which I have little doubt, the professor being an intelligent man, would have understood that the cop was doing his duty, said good-night, and no one would have even heard of the incident.

[crickets]

136. Thank you. -nt

[autorank]

154. Welcome n/t

[RedCloud]

115. Actually repugs are supposed to NOT allow cops into your home!

Where is their false concern for too much meddling in our private lives?

And who the fuck was that "neighbor" who called it in in the first place? Some shit disturber who doesn't know a neighbor?

[omega minimo]

117. See that's how the fuck ya get to the greatest page!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6128545

[grahamhgreen]

120. Unfortunately, we now live in a police state - i hope this makes obama realize it.

[City Lights]

126. Some of the stuff I've read here tonight has left me speechless.

:scared:

[Ex Lurker]

131. a cop and a Harvard prof. Two of the most arrogant people on earth.

put them together and this was bound to happen. Race may have been a factor, but these guys would have been inclined to dislike each other if they were both polka dot.

[bottomofthehill]

135. Bingo

And believe me, the city cops and the Harvard crowd (Teachers or students)have never gotten along.

[mwooldri]

134. Leaving out the race angle, yes you're correct.

Certainly two constitutional violations I can see here (1 & 4).

The police officer was out of line, period.

EOM.

[Blue_Roses]

139. thank-you

:applause:

[lxlxlxl]

141. the country can barely deal with law enforcement overstep

i want to see statistics on how many people die in jails every week.

[depakid]

150. "Are you so damn paranoid about crime that you're willing to live in a goddamn police state?"

The answer is an unequivocal yes.

[Fearless]

159. Ask someone who cares to explain it to you about "hot pursuit"

[Hannah Bell]

428. lol. nice try.

[Fearless]

471. Yes it is.

[Hannah Bell]

509. no crime = no "hot pursuit"

[Fearless]

516. Please look up the defintion of hot pursuit.

The police officer has every right to enter a house that his been suspected of a break in without asking and without warrant because if there WAS (which there wasn't, which cannot be established until after entering the house) a break in, the people inside could be harmed or stuff could be stolen or the person could get away.

[pauldg0]

160. Just read the damn police report.....

The repuks are laughing their asses off at us with their gotcha press question.

[EFerrari]

164. You mean that report written by the same guy that made the bad arrest?

That's funny. Not even his padding made his stupid assed charges stick.

[HughMoran]

172. You mean the psychopaths that believe the birther shit and are a pack of racist morons?

Yeah, I really care what they think. :eyes:

[Divine Discontent]

170. I agree based on the first sentence! then it turned to into a curse fest where I felt like IIII was

getting yelled at. LOL

but yes, I agree! Bullshit - getting arrested for being pissed off is ridiculous indeed. The professor could have remained quiet and said nothing and not have been arrested and temporarily incarcerated had he not gotten irate - of course - but I guess he wanted to take a stand.

[PretzelWarrior]

174. excellent. you deserve top spot on Greatest page. hey! you are there!

kudos. nice post.

[tblue37]

175. bmaz at emptywheel has an excellent analysis of

the violation of civil rights involved when one is arrested for "contempt of cop." Apparently there is ample case law to support the right to yell at a cop if one wishes to.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/23/henry-louis-gates-contempt-of-cop/

[ControlledDemolition]

176. K&R. Now let's have another look at the ' Patriot Act' !

The Patriot Act... Goerge Orwell continues to roll in his grave!

[omega minimo]

177. I Am Truly, Truly Alarmed At The Mindset of Some DUers That This Bonehead, From The Gut OP

is the Greatest Greatest Greatest of the Greatest

considering recent upheaval over what the Greatest Greatest Greatest of the Greatest is

and my own tendency to try to be literate, informative and illustrative -- even educative -- to combat the rampant ignorance that often overwhelms discussion.

And this is the zeitgeist. This is the heart. This is us saying FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6128545

[farmboxer]

183. News said he was in his 60's and uses a cane

whatever, I am getting of this police state.

[Rhiannon12866]

184. The question that I have, that hasn't been asked, is who called the cops in the first place?

They didn't just materialize to confront an older black gentleman in his own home. Somebody called them and they came, as they should have. Why wasn't the caller questioned, since "she," as was said, was apparently still right there. She was the one who reported that Gates was a burgular... Has anybody spoken to her? :shrug:

[EFerrari]

189. She was apparently passing by. She works at the offices

of an alum magazine nearby.

[Rhiannon12866]

193. Thanks! I find it baffling that she hasn't been mentioned, since she started this whole thing.

Didn't she recognize Professor Gates? Seems as if he's pretty famous in academic circles. Did she actually believe that an elderly man with a cane was trying to break into a home, via the front door, in broad daylight? Sounds very odd to me... :shrug:

[msanthrope]

199. I thought she was a neighbor, but apparently she's not--she was

just passing through and called.....what the hell was this woman thinking, I'll never know.

But hey, she's a white woman who doesn't even live in the neighborhood who calls the cops about some Black guys she's seen.

sounds like a reliable witness to me!!!!!!

she works for Harvard Mag, and the local press has used her name.

[meowomon]

185. The officer admitted he knew Gates was the lawful resident.

Since when did it become illegal to yell at a policeman who is trespassing on your private property? To my knowledge, it isn't against the law to yell at the police....yet.

[zonkers]

190. Kick. Thanks for some sanity.

[dipsydoodle]

195. ditto

and recommend too.

[SkyDaddy7]

200. There are probably many cops here on DU...

I have known several cops in my life and through my career...The friendship with almost all of them no longer exist due to their egos. They honestly want full submission from whoever it is they encounter in their job or that person or persons will be tazzed, batoned, and arrested. Then the arresting cops will alter police reports and lie on the stand if the case goes that far. Many cops will simply write tickets to ruin people's work schedule and then never show up in court. Cops are not professionals at all! Even the ones who may act professional when by themselves will remain silent when their fellow cops abuse rights or even hurt and sometimes kill others.

However, this problem is really to be blamed on local police chiefs & judges! Neither will properly discipline cops as they say it will hurt moral and help crime...This works every time with the voting public. So, ultimately it is our fault, the voter!

[onestepforward]

201. Great post. K&R

[ejbr]

202. Gates did make a mistake...

he should have locked that fucking door once he was inside. Therefore, the police would not have been able to just walk in, which was one of the things that provoked him. That being said, a white man of his age and dress would never have been asked for identification once he explained what happened. Although, a white man might may have only been shocked to see police officers in his home rather than annoyed, leading to a whole different type of interaction.

Nevertheless, people claim Crowley is an "expert" on profiling. Well, as an "expert", he should know that some blacks are getting fed up with having to jump through hoops to be left the fuck alone...especially in their own home ffs!

[bowens43]

203. I'm with you.

The police in this country have been totally and completely out of control for years and yet , even here , we see people defending these outrageous actions.

It disgusts me.

[GOTV]

206. How many DU posters said the cop was right to arrest Gates?

It must have been a lot of them

[Cronus Protagonist]

209. You are quite correct. sir

The race angle is a media generated red herring to cover the real fact of the matter which is that the Constitution was used as butt-wipe by the cop, with complete impunity and supported by the media.

[rhett o rick]

212. What's a Constitution? The United States dumped that during the bush* administration and

President Obama isn't in any hurry to reestablish it. Especially the fourth amendment, it is moot.

[stray cat]

213. What if a cop were black and a skin head was calling him a nigger and giving him attitude

Should anyone ever be arrested for the way they treat someone as long as no one is bodily injured if it occurs in their own home?

[NoSheep]

230. The cop should be trained to keep cool and leave the scene.

[DallasNE]

217. Amen

The police officer even goaded Gates into coming out on his porch, which is considered public rather than private party, to skirt the 4th Amendment issue and slap on the handcuffs. (Read between the lines on the police report).

I also thought it was telling that the first words out of the officers mouth in an interview about Obama's comment was "I didn't vote for him". What a strange way to deflect the question in a community that did vote 88% for him. In spite of his background on teaching race relations I am reminded of the Mark Furman mindset here.

[malaise]

218. Superb thread

K & R

[customerserviceguy]

221. May I offer a different approach to this issue?

Leaving aside the possible Constitutional issues (that may be fully explored if this thing goes any further) there is a perception issue in this country, and it's over the issue of race.

I really didn't know anything about Gates before this incident, I might have seen his name mentioned once or twice in passing, and I'd venture to say that the folks in flyover country are probably in the same situation. The first thing that 98% of our fellow Americans knew about Professor Gates is that he was arrested for trying to break into his own house, and that he called the cop a racist.

At some point, it may very well come out that Gates was 100% in the right on everything he did, and the cop was 100% wrong (I personally doubt those proportions, but you get the idea.) In the meantime, an old stereotype has been resurrected in the minds of people who generally trust cops. That's the image of a black man screaming "Racism!" in order to possibly try to get away with something. President Obama has broken precedent and spoken out on this issue while it is still fresh by saying the cop acted stupidly, and has thrust himself squarely on to the side of the image that calls up fear in the minds of the people in flyover country.

Why should we give a shit about what they think? Well, President Obama was elected with their help. For seven out of the ten Presidential elections before 2008, it has been conclusively proved that without support from areas outside the big cities, a Democratic candidate cannot be elected President. While campaigning, Barack Obama was careful to avoid looking aligning himself with the old images of black power that were the caricature of what the people in flyover country were afraid of. He's now tied himself to a vestige of that image.

This is important as he's facing the toughest political fight of his young administration, the battle to establish universal healthcare. It was a poor time for this to happen. I'm sure other people here perceive that, too.

[aikoaiko]

222. Partial agreement.

I think the officer needed to change gears drastically after being shown the ID, but there are situations where someone might be breaking into his or her ID residence illegally. For example, it could be the case that the person was evicted or a current restraining order existed.

Either way, these are low probability events and the police really needed to be cognizant that they were not confronting a criminal after seeing the ID and that no arrest should have been made simply because he was angry over the intrusion and treatment by the officer.

[varelse]

223. Thank you!!!!!

:kick:

[pleah]

224. K&R

[fascisthunter]

226. well said Yavin4

[AngryAmish]

227. I think you need to read the 23d Amendment before you spout off again

Go on. Read it. Then get back to us.

[harmonicon]

228. to answer your questions for most people on this board:

1. No, and 2. Yes

This place scares the shit out of me some times. It's chock-full of racist, middle and upper class, self-righteous fuckwads.

Just like the Democratic party!! However, like the party, there are also a number of amazingly intelligent, thoughtful, and caring individuals. However, that second group is in the minority.

[DeadEyeDyck]

229. I talked to my Dad's friend who is a JSO police officer

and not that it makes any difference, but he is black as is my dad.

Here is how he put it. He said it is standard protocol to escort the presumed homeowner into the home and to tour the premises, regardless of what the homeowner says. At this point, there are still too many unknowns.

A criminal may be hiding in the home, holding a hostage and the home owner is concealing the fact out of fear.

The person may not be the actual home owner.

From there he talked about different situations that he had been in. He is really a cool guy and we like him. For a cop, he is the greatest. He said that cop was probably following procedure and when Mr. Gates started yelling, he had every right to arrest him.

You may not agree but I just wanted to let you see it from one cop's perspective.

[KG]

235. disturbing how many are ready to kneel before Zod!

they welcome their fascist overlords! :P

[alarimer]

237. It's the authoritarian mindset.

Some believe that anyone in a uniform deserves automatic deference. I do not. It is not illegal (yet) to yell at cops. They threw their weight around for no other reason than the simple fact that they COULD.

And some people are authoritarian followers, doing whatever "the man" says.

[Butch350]

238. Don't lecture to people like children about Constitutional law...

your acting more like a freeper and besides YOU WERE NOT THERE!

With all your ranting, exactly what happened in that period of time, before Gates produced the id?

And it's the job of the Police to make sure the individual is secure. You obviously have a problem with authority.

[RoccoR5955]

239. K & R Those who would give up Essential Liberty

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
-- Ben Franklin.

[Butch350]

243. Ben Franklin is dead!

Quotes ain't worth a shit in the real world. " I took the red pill ".

[RoccoR5955]

448. Quotes may not be worth fecal matter BUT...

...the ideas behind them sure are alive, and worth EVERYTHING!

[madmax]

240. Bravo!!!! n/t

[Wednesdays]

246. K&R

:kick:

[merh]

247. Oh, please don't forget about the 1st Amendment.

Gates was angry and speaking his mind, exercising his 1st amendment rights.

Freedom of Speech is afforded to folks, even when they are cussing cops for violating their 4th amendment rights.

[valerief]

249. I cited that, too, a day or two ago in a previous post. I was told the police were correct

by another poster. Boggles the mind, huh?

[Fading Captain]

251. Obama's Health Care Plan is Toast

Like I said.

[ProSense]

260. You wish. n/t

[Fading Captain]

275. No. Actually, I am ambiguous.

Because I don't think it is a good plan.
Universal Health Care, single-payer style, is what will work.

People say it's politically unfeasible. But I'd like to see us try, before we come up with some watered down, Massachusetts-style plan forces everyone to buy insurance, but then makes it unaffordable for use.

[slackmaster]

252. I think the civil and criminal court systems should sort out what happened and handle it

A bunch of people who weren't there arguing about it won't do any good.

[mnhtnbb]

253. I have posted the 4th Amendment previously to several threads on the subject

and not gotten ONE response, that indicated knowledge. Instead, one person suggested Gates might have been a hostage--and that's why the cop pursued it. :wtf:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3981640&mesg_id=3981955

and here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6129364&mesg_id=6134599

The cop obviously was hoping to accelerate the confrontation. That's why he got Gates to step
OUTSIDE his home, where he presumably wasn't covered by the 4th Amendment.

I'm glad Obama called the guy out. He did act "stupidly". This will not end well for the cop, but he's too arrogant and full of himself to back down (or he would have in Gates' home).

[cboy4]

257. It is an eye opener

[ProSense]

259. Some assholes didn't want him to become President

but he did. Same as then, they're still assholes.

[MzNov]

266. Cops Gone Wild in America

Shoot first, Taser first, wrestle a 75 y/o 100-lb woman to the ground,

JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY TALKS BACK TO A COP, or resists by lipping off ???? You are absolutely correct. Whatever you say, even if it's backtalk, is free speech. But not to cops these days. They are not trained to handle things without violence, and don't consider each situation. Somebody arguing with a cop does not mean their lives are in danger. I swear we're putting all X blackwater freaks on the police forces.

We're in big trouble.

Not even considering the obvious, living while black.

It's truly scarey and disgusting.

[vanlassie]

267. Kicking. Cop was shockingly out of line.

[tomreedtoon]

276. Listen to these words of sense from a non-black person.

Black people ALWAYS get hassled by the police. ALWAYS.

It isn't fair, but that's the way the system works. This is reality, dude, and yes, it's ugly.

The Constitution is not involved. It is the ancient order of Police vs. Blacks, and most black people know that they have to react VERY carefully when the police come in.

Over at Salon.com, there is a post from someone who IS a black man, specifically a student in the kind of Ivy League college that this professor works at. He points out that people in Ivy League colleges, especially black people, think that the rules don't apply to them. This professor found out, suddenly, that being an academic doesn't stop him from being a black man, and being on the receiving end of the hassles every black man must face.

The man makes the point that Professor Gates gets no special pass because he's a Professor. This isn't Hogwarts. It is reality.

Here's the article link. You may have to watch an ad on Salon if you're not a paying member; that, too, is ugly reality.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/07/24/gates/

[joeybee12]

278. Congrats, your post is the worst and most inflamatory...you are not basing this

on facts...he wasn't arrested in his home..outside...come on people, drop it.

[mackerel]

279. Black people always get hassled? You're leaving out us

Latinos when you say that. People of color always get hassled.

[Lerkfish]

282. agreed, but I've also seen people defending taser abuse here

I think there are propolice members who believe that we should fellate the police as if they were our overlords instead of treating them like public servants.

[Chisox08]

283. Once the cop saw Gates ID that should have been it.

They established identity and residency. Gates should not have left his house even though the front porch is still his private property.

[Lorien]

288. They aren't DUers. They're trolls. nt

[gabby garcia]

291. Dave Chappelle gets it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7F50Cd8LME

[Richd506]

293. I'm on the proffessors side on this one

I don't think the cop is a racist but I do think he acted on impulse rather than by law. He saw some guy breaking into a house and didn't care to ask if it was his own. That's just stupid.

[Uncle Joe]

304. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Yavin.

[JayMusgrove]

315. Your opening comments are F'ing RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where do people who defend the actions of the cops arresting this man get off?

[noiretextatique]

317. thank you...there was no need for an "attitude" arrest

and even though his fellow officers are now claiming he behaved appropriately, the officer should have left when he verified gates lived at the address.

[Yavin4]

318. Let Me Add This

First, I posted this not because I wanted to make the Greatest page. I really don't care about that, and I really don't understand why everyone here gets so wound up about it.

Second, DU is not the community that I thought it was. Now, I'm not a lawyer, and thank God for that. However, I do believe that the Constitution prohibits the police from making arrests without warrants or probable cause. In this case, the Cop had no right to arrest Mr. Gates once he show identification that he lived there. Thus, no crime whatsoever is being committed, no probable cause.

And, the BS about how Gates followed him out on the porch so he could be arrested there is also BS.

Now, if some DUers want to make the argument that the police have the right to arrest you wherever or whenver they damn please, then YOU ARE NOT A LIBERAL NOR A PROGRESSIVE BY ANY MEASURE, AND DO NOT FOOL YOURSELF INTO THINKING AS SUCH. JUST BECAUSE YOU VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

Being a Liberal means that you believe in the rights of the citizenry over the state. You believe that the government exists to help people, not target them for abuse.

If you think that this cop was justified in any way, then you need to check yourself.

[HughMoran]

324. Apparently we post here with a bunch of authoritarians who want to live in a dictatorship

Can you imagine agreeing that a cop can come into a mans house, provoke him, then arrest him for disorderly conduct!!

Sounds like something you might read in a book about an authoritarian regime that dragged off and killed millions of it's own citizens - disgusting!!!

[Yavin4]

327. We Have People Who Have Been Indoctrinated

into believing that being a cop is a really tough and scary job, and we should allow them to break the law every now and then because they're protecting us.

These people have no idea of the constitution. None.

[noiretextatique]

326. damn right

i can't believe how many people here support police action a person because he is black. as with katrina, this is further proof that many americans don't consider black people citizens of america.

[Yavin4]

330. And That's Why They're Neither Liberal Nor Progressives

They really need to examine their political philosophies. Being a progressive means more than supporting Dems, a lot more.

[DeLaroche]

337. Gates is an idiot.

It doesn't matter what his race is. There was a report of someone described as a black man breaking into his house and the police responded. He refused to show his ID, called the officers racist and acted like a victim when the police were there to protect him and his property. This isn't even close to a case of racial profiling because he was the person seen breaking into the house. Profiling would be if the police stopped and questioned every black man in the area. He's supposed to be one of the greatest scholars in the country and after his rantings about "this is what happens to a black man in America" and wanting the officer's name and badge number and being invited onto the porch, he was quoted as saying "I'll be talking to your mama on the porch.". Stupid, just stupid, not to mention classy coming from a Harvard professor.

Had he immediately shown his identification and explained the situation rationally, I guarantee none of this would've happened. The guy should find out who called in the report of a break-in and thank them for watching out for his home. This isn't a 4th Amendment issue, a racial profiling issue, a rogue cop issue, or for Christ's sake, a Nazi police state issue. What I can't believe is that so many on here are supporting him when he was the one acting like an imbecile.

Here's one for the police detractors. Do the police do anything right in your book? Maybe you should try cooperating with them, especially in a situation like this.

[Yavin4]

342. You Are An Authoritarian

You are ignorant of the facts in this case, and you are ignorant of the U.S. Constitution.

He did show ID, and once he produced it, the cops should have left the premises. End of story. No matter what Gates said or didn't say to him.

[DeLaroche]

345. No, he didn't.

He showed ID after initially refusing. The officers did leave and he continued his rant. Gates should've shown his ID immediately, end of story.

[Yavin4]

398. You Want To Live In An Authoritarian Police State

Because you think that said police state won't affect you. You are a truly ignorant person.

It doesn't matter that Gates initially refused because he did comply with the request.

It doesn't matter that he ranted at the police.

It does matter that the police arrested him because he was rude to them. No sir. The police do not have that right.

And, if they do, why aren't the police pursuing the charge? Why did they drop it?

[Hannah Bell]

435. ranting on one's own porch is a crime? who knew?

[noiretextatique]

451. he never refused per his statement

so you can choose the believe the cops. in any case, the charges were dropped, so the arrest was bogus.

[noiretextatique]

449. you don't have the facts straight

so there is little point in responding to you. police sometimes do things right, but not in this case. if the cop was "right" the charges would not have been dropped the next day. calling gates an idiot shows what an absolute imbecile you are.

[Individualist]

329. Hear, hear!

[JDPriestly]

332. Right. The officer should left or should have gotten a warrant.

The Supreme Court has interpreted the Fourth Amendment so loosely that it has no teeth anymore.

I wonder what would have happened if this police officer had tried to arrest a prominent NRA member in the front yard of or in his home rather than a prominent Harvard professor in the front yard of or in his home?

[JDPriestly]

334. Gates should have called a lawyer when the officer asked for Gates's ID.

Even if he didn't really call a lawyer, the officer would have backed off I think or at least cooled off.

[Caliman73]

335. Emotion trumps logic sometimes

Yes people tend to be so afraid of crime that they prefer to have liberties stripped away for the appearance of security. I also think it is a bit of laziness as well, and that I can say for myself. We tend to like to leave things in the hands of the "professionals" and don't mind being told what to do so long as it is not anything over the top. Unfortunately, when people obtain power or certain authority over others, they tend to enjoy the feeling of superiority that can come along with the title or job. Public service tends to become a means to power for some and the public interest is lost.

You are correct though, we all need to take more time and responsibility for understanding our basic rights and the law and not be afraid to stand up for them.

[Fleshdancer]

336. I agree completely

I wouldn't care if Gates was the biggest, loudest a-hole this cop ever had the displeasure of speaking to, the fact remains he was in his own home and he provided ID. The cop should have walked away.

[DeLaroche]

343. So

So the rule should be: Demand respect from the police yet show none in return? That's a wonderful philosophy, folks.

By the way, had he said he wanted his lawyer before showing ID he would've been arrested on the spot.

[Fleshdancer]

349. what part of IN HIS OWN HOME is too hard for you to comprehend here?

and since when did cops get to arrest people for not being respectful? Exactly WHAT LAW was broken by Gates being angry?

You are not 5 years old and the police is not your mommy folks! It's acceptable to get angry when treated like a criminal for being in your own home and getting arrested even after showing ID.

I'm sick and tired of your mindset. You would be just as pissed if this happened to you, but since it didn't, you have no problem sitting and judging the anger of an innocent man. You're a hypocrite.

[DeLaroche]

354. No I'm not.

This has happened to me before. I was supposed to be out of town and my neighbors knew it. I took a cab home from the airport 3 days early and my wonderful elderly neighbor called the police, who came to the house. I explained what was going on and showed my identification. They checked to verify that I was in fact the owner of the house and left with my thanks. I even invited my neighbor over for dinner the next evening to thank her for watching out for me.

[Evoman]

359. HA! You mean you showed the cop ID, and then he left?

Like he should have done in this case. Let me guess, white guy?

[DeLaroche]

368. Yep

I showed him my ID immediately and didn't throw a fucking tantrum.

[Evoman]

401. Oh?

You mean after having the system undermine you all your life because your a middle class white guy, you didn't get mad when a police officer barged into your home uninvited, kept questioning you after showing your ID, then escalated the situation by rudely (and illegally) refusing your request for his name and badge number? Instead, you kept your cool?

Good for fucking you.

[Evoman]

356. I don't give a fuck if the police respect me at all.

As long as they don't fucking arrest me for giving their bullshit back to them, and leave me the fuck alone, they can disrespect me all they fucking want.

It's not about respect, it's about power.

[DeLaroche]

369. Wow

You'd better pray you never need one.

[Evoman]

387. Why not? I pay for them, doesn't mean I have to fucking like them.

I pay for my insurance, it doesn't mean I'm gonna suck the insurance guy's cock so I get my money if my shit gets stolen.

The cops better be there when I need them. When I don't, they can fuck right off.

Got a problem with that?

[TomClash]

344. Perhaps I no longer belong here then . . .

. . . since I believe his 4th Amendment rights were not violated if the disorderly conduct and arrest was outside his home, which is the account in the police report. Of course, maybe the police report was wrong and he was actually in his house. I think an investigation should be conducted before the howling begins. But then again I've always believed in civil rights - for everybody. Even cops.

Maybe that's because I remember Steven Pagonas, the ADA who "raped" Tawana Brawley. Every media outlet and politician was sure of it - until they weren't.

But, hey, I'm a Freeper now because here in the New Democratic Underground, disagreement is verboten.

Thank you. You have made me begin to reassess whether I want to be a DU member any longer.

[DeLaroche]

348. Disagreement is fine.

I disagree with you, what's so wrong with that? I don't think the police were wrong and I'm surprised that so many on here think Gates is completely without fault in this situation when he had all the power to set things straight from the very beginning, yet chose not to.

[Evoman]

355. An investigation by who? Cops?

Might as well fucking arrest the black guy again.

[Yavin4]

400. Perhaps You Don't

If you want to live in authoritarian police state wherein if you're rude to the police in any way then it's okay for them to arrest you, then no, you are not a progressive nor a Liberal.

Also, that's nice to bring up Steve Pagonas, a totally irrelevant fact to this argument.

Finally, yes, YOU ARE A FREEPER, if you don't respect the Constitutional and Civil Rights of the people.

Yes, maybe you should leave DU.

[MUAD_DIB]

402. My, you are a superior one, aren't you? May I kiss your ring?

It's a good thing you don't make the rules here.

[Yavin4]

404. If I Did Make The Rules,

You would not be allowed to post here because you have no clue as what a Liberal/Progressive really is. None.

You don't even understand the U.S. Constituion in any way. You believe that people should be arrested in their own homes because they're rude to the police.

[MUAD_DIB]

420. I would imagine that DU would be a smaller, shriller more reactionary place,

than it is today, if you held the reigns, Robespierre.


But since you are an apparent Constitutional scholar I guess there is an article or amendment in there which would justify your willingness to shut down debate. Maybe there is an anti first amendment that I am not aware of.

Perhaps RimJob needs somebody like you to help with his site.
From what I have heard they're good at shutting down debate over there.

[TomClash]

414. We'll see - this is hilarious though

Authoritarian, Freeper, etc. Any other names?

All because I would prefer an investigation over a rush to judgment. Steven Pagonas is an apt example of what happens when cooler heads don't prevail.

I respect the Constitution and civil rights. Perhaps you should learn to respect other people and to argue with facts rather than name calling.

Your end of the lesson.

[MUAD_DIB]

421. That guy is so funny...

His post to me.


If I Did Make The Rules, You would not be allowed to post here because you have no clue as what a Liberal/Progressive really is. None.

You don't even understand the U.S. Constituion in any way. You believe that people should be arrested in their own homes because they're rude to the police.

[TomClash]

456. Crazy but I feel better that I have some company

:hi: :thumbsup:

[MUAD_DIB]

477. We're not the only two that have a rational side.

I just want to get all the facts before I make a decision, but some just won't accept that.

But the whole thing will be mute soon. Obama is working on fixing it.

Good for him.

[TomClash]

500. "I just want to get all the facts before I make a decision"

I couldn't agree more.:thumbsup:

[Evoman]

346. I'm in awe. It's almost like some sort of fucking joke.

You take one of the the most well-known, intelligent Black Scholars in the world, let alone the states.

You take a clearest case of a bullshit arrest ever...someone being arrested on their own property, not having committed any crimes at all.

You read a police statement which is almost shockingly obvious an exercise in Cover Your Ass.

AND PEOPLE STILL DEFEND THE FUCKING POLICE!!!

Fuck all of you authoritarian pieces of shit. You are not my friends, you are the reason that things suck so bad for minorities, and you are the reason that things are getting worse for even white people.

[DeLaroche]

350. Exactly

You take one of the best scholars in the country and he goes off on those who are there to protect him when the entire situation could've been resolved had he simply explained to the police what was going on. What ever happened to common fucking courtesy?

[Evoman]

358. See, this is a case of you believing the fucking bullshit that the cop is spewing.

After reading that bullshit report, that fucker has no credibility with me.

[JackHughes]

362. Gates was arrested for "contempt of cop."

Police officers routinely abuse citizens' rights -- even to the point of brutality caught on video -- with "punishment," if any, usually limited to a few days suspension with pay. Since cops are virtually never held accountable for their actions, why shouldn't we expect them to act like petty tyrants?

Professor Gates was simply arrested for "contempt of cop," i.e., not showing what the cop considered the proper deference to a police officer. This happens every day in America's police state.

Professor Gates should consider himself lucky. At least they didn't work him over with nightsticks or plant drugs on him.

[DeLaroche]

371. Jack

You've seen too many movies.

[lexanman]

426. Like Serpico?

Please answer just one question. No race, no emotion, no drama.

Was Mr Gates lawfully arrested and properly charged?

[VenusRising]

363. Authoritarians come in all flavors.

Some people can't stand the idea of not having someone tell them what is right/wrong, good/bad, up/down...etc. The ease of which some people give over their free will to another human being who they feel is above them is mind boggling to me, too.

:patriot:

[livetohike]

366. Thank you for this

It's 8 years of the Bush/Cheney regime that is making people think this is normal behavior.

[DeLaroche]

370. Great

How about the next time a break-in is reported at his house the cops simply ignore it?

[livetohike]

372. Is that some kind of argument to the 4th amendment??

Is it too much to ask an officer to remain professional in their duties? Why were the charges dropped if this officer did everything by the book?

No,if there ever is a break in at Gates' house, it is the job of the police to answer the call. It is also their job to do their job properly.

[DeLaroche]

374. And there was a break-in reported.

It was Gates who acted like an idiot, not the police.

Will anyone here admit that had Gates acted like a normal person and told the officers from the start what was going on, they would've left without incident?

Anyone?

[HughMoran]

380. Only a cop would assume that Gates didn't

You're making an ASSumption there that shows your BIAS.

[livetohike]

383. Exactly how did Gates act "like an idiot"?

What does that have to do with the 4th amendment? Do you understand why the 4th amendment was written? This is what the OP intended this thread to be about.

Or are you one who only likes our Constitution when it serves your purposes?

[Name removed]

373. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeLaroche]

375. Same to you

Go tell a cop to fuck off, see what it gets you.

[Name removed]

378. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

384. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

396. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[winyanstaz]

382. They are brainwashed is why....

They have gotten so used to bowing their heads for their masters they don't even recognize it when it is stepped up another notch.
This is a large part of why there are no riots as our nation is being destroyed.
Between the fluoride (which causes people to be docile, even in examples such as Hitler using it to keep people pacified in the death camps) in the water and the chemicals in the chem trails and the constant fear mongering with one hand while they destroy our Constitution with another, combined with the dumbing down in schools and the propaganda and brainwashing in the churches where they use Jesus and God to justify wars against innocent nations...we are a Nation in big big trouble.
Good luck America...we are going to need a big dose of it.

[Ysabela]

407. Don't talk about Flouride and Chemtrails...

that will get you disappeared to some secret CIA torture site.

[winyanstaz]

498. Dear Ysabela,,,

Thank you for your concern. However I am a firm believer in that I have to speak up for what is right..even if it means my life.
You see...we all have to die. It is how we live that matters.

[jacobfloyd]

390. GODDAMMIT! FUCKIN RIGHT!!

[AspenRose]

391. But this incident DOESN'T AFFECT ANYONE. We need to move on to something else.

That's what I was told today, anyway.

[zanne]

397. I wholeheartedly agree with Yavin 4, the original poster.

In fact, DU is not the liberal place it was a few years back. I fear that infiltration from right-wingers have "watered down" DU. Sad, but I hope it's reversible.

[lexanman]

430. DU is the not progressive anymore

Over at the other site, If one dared offer an opinion that didn't agree with the extreme rightwing, they get booted off. On here, they have free reign, and there are plenty here too. And they know it.

[IsItJustMe]

406. It takes decades to wipe out ignorance, bigotry, and racism. And yes. it's hear too.

[RBInMaine]

441. In other words, if you look at THIS incident and think the cop was in the right, you are bigoted?

That is ignorant. Cops are citizens and deserve benefit of the doubt as well. If Gates had simply cooperated the cops would have said thanks and been gone. Not that I'm saying what Gates did rose to the level of an arrest, but he certainly over-reacted to an officer who had been called there and was there to investigate a burglary report. Gates initiated this escalation. BOTH should have kept cooler heads here, and there is not one shred of evidence to say this was racially motivated. Not one shred. The only party who was spouting racial remarks was Gates. All that said, I will also AGAIN say that arresting him was not warranted, but because even though Gates was being difficult, his conduct did not quite rise to the level of being arrested at his own residence.

[IsItJustMe]

460. If you are not safe in your own home, where are safe at?

[RBInMaine]

411. Maybe a poor arrest decision, but certainly not racially motivated. Also, a person could be arrested

for committing disorderly conduct, even at their own residence, if their behavior was bad enough, although I agree it would have to be pretty bad: i.e. threatening the officer, extreme and continued profanity (kind of like yours on your post), extreme and continued loudness, etc. Remember, all rights also carry responsibilities and have their limitations. In this case, it sounds like Gates was being overly defensive and reacted less than angelic for a Harvard professor, but it doesn't sound like it rose to the level of being cuffed and taken to the stationhouse. Yes, cops have to put up with an amount of verbal crap. Goes with the territory. But make no mistake, your rights still have limitations, even at home.

[truedelphi]

415. Please consider two things:

One - the Fourth Amendment.

Two: Consider this - many here at DU live with or know of someone who
Is diabetic, and thus has problems with maintaining correct blood sugar levels.

Is a diabetic supposed to always be in perfect control of themselves even given their health problems just so that if Mr Nice Guy Police Man comes barging in?

Or another case, many here on DU live with or knows of people who are slightly unbalanced in terms of mental health.

And some people have mental health issues that do not arise unless they are stressed.

So here a person happens to be, in their own home, minding their own business, and they have police entering their home, unexpected and not for any discernable reason that they can make out, and they have a hissy fit.

So frigging what!

Police need to be trained to accept that people are not required to be perfectly polite when they enter someone's home unbidden. And that perhaps the person will even act in unacceptable ways.

That is what the Fourth Amendment is about.

[RBInMaine]

443. No, that is what judgement and discretion are about. The 4th amendment, like all rights, is very

important, but like all rights reponsibility goes with it. It has exceptions and limitations. We have a balance between law and order and personal rights.

[RBInMaine]

444. So the first amendment allows you to yell FIRE in a crowded theater?

[truedelphi]

447. Huh? I mention the FOURTH amendment

And you go and get a theatre seat at the movies.

Enjoy your :popcorn:

Hope it goes well with the crack you are smokin'.

[RBInMaine]

512. My point, if you could get past your emotional baggage, is that the 4th amendment does not allow

unlimited privacy rights anymore than the 1st amendment allows unlimited free speech. Yes, you can be arrested for disorderly conduct, even if you are in your own home, if your behavior is so disorderly as to cause a disburbance beyond your home or if you are verbally berating someone to an excessive degree. Ever hear of someone being arrested for playing music too loud or screaming profanities, even in their own home? Happens pretty frequently, actually. Gates may not have been so disorderly as to have warranted an arrest, but the underlying premise of your understanding of the 4th amendment, which seems to be unbridled noise or "free speech" type within and/or around your own home is flawed.

[fascisthunter]

417. why were the charges dropped

if he really had a case they would never have dropped the charges.

[lexanman]

431. The charges were dropped

because it was an unlawful arrest. Im dissappointed hearing now that gate's attorney said they wont be pressing a suit.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

418. HELLO? Do you realize not everyone in DU is a lib?

I have encountered (much to my unhappiness) Republicans in disguise in here. You can tell by their views.

[fascisthunter]

419. oh yes indeed...

[Name removed]

423. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fascisthunter]

425. I'm not interested in talking to you

it's a waste of time

[Hannah Bell]

436. de larouche?

[iamapatriot]

462. North Korea

Thank you for that succinct explanation, there are a lot of ignorant people around who simply toe the line. These people supporting the Arrogant Bastard Professor should take that ride along, and book those flights to the 4th World hell holes they extol

[fascisthunter]

502. Most DU folks despise arrogant authoritarians and their cheerleaders

who obviously do not respect ordinary citizens' rights. No cop deserves anymore respect than any other civilian or non-civilian in this country. Equality is an American virtue, what you support is it's opposite.

[RBInMaine]

442. BS. Just because someone has another view on one issue doesn't make that person a RePUKE.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

497. It does if they hold Republican viewpoints, and if you believe there are no GOPers in here....

You're dreaming.

[RBInMaine]

513. And then there are others who are soooooooooo far left that they think ANYONE not ultra left is a

RePUKE. Parties should have big tents. Not too big, but big. That is why we are growing and the PUKES are shrinking.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

514. Okay, I'm listening. Like what? lol

For ex., I'm a socialist by ideology but I have nothing against people who are for capitalism as long as it's CONTROLLED capitalism. Now, uncontrolled capitalism, that's not an ideology that should be had by a Democrat. A Democrat believing in that, belongs in the GOP.

[SteelPenguin]

433. I am Truly Alarmed Also

The speed with which the majority here jump to conclusions, ignore what facts are available, and assume the worst of a police officer is disturbing.

[Truth2Tell]

434. Thanks Yavin4! K&R.

It warms my heart to see this post at the top of the greatest.

[rucky]

438. Here's a good example of "Unrecommend"

243 recs for a rant about "some DU-ers"

You'd figure those DU-ers who felt it was directed at them would un-rec it. If there were lots of DU-ers with this mindset, the recs on the thread would be more stagnant. But there are not lots of DU-ers with this mindset.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a very small minority here that have some ridiculous - and downright trollish opinions. But those posts get so much attention and stick out in so many minds, that we think there are more than there really are. I think the number of net positive recs for this thread proves it. Hopefully it'll serve us to not give those very small minority opinions so much attention - they seem to have more of a voice than the rest of us, if we think a rant like this is warranted here.

[CatWoman]

439. love you, Yavin

:)

[Yavin4]

459. Right Back At You, Cat!

I never thought that I had to explain basic constitutional and civil rights to some people on DU.

I get that there should be debates on issues and the people in our govt, but some things should be sacrosanct, such as not being arrested because you're rude to a police officer IN YOUR OWN HOME!!

I purposely didn't focus my OP on the race issue because this is a constitutional violation.

[iamapatriot]

457. DU

Yes, Yavin4, you should be alarmed at the ridiculous mindset of the some of the brainwashed masses that drag their knuckles through your posts like children. I just joined here, and expected much more intelligent dialogue, but all I see are whiners and complainers, and crybabies - children without adults around who are on their milk and cookie breaks. Really, if this is the state of the dialogue from Democratic party constituents, then the country is more lost than I had ever thought. Oh, and btw your 4th Amendment post to prove a point does exactly that through interpretation of the document. "against unreasonable" - is a vague phrase that allows for discretion on the part of law enforcement(Bless our founding fathers!!) it is up to the peace officer to determine the outcome of a situation, not a citizen. The police "protect" us, and that includes protecting his person and other members of the public from, in this case - a 60 year old screaming race baiter, who will not follow the commands of the officer to calm down and show his ID(Which jerky eventually did), and who screams racial insults and physical threats at this highly distinguished officer. This Officer Crowley, in reality schools cops how to handle situations like this "Professor" by teaching racial profiling and race relations for officers across the USA. Crowley was personally appointed by the black police chief, and this officer's black partner supports the way this arrest went down. Its not racial profiling, its not racism. People need to be smart and simply be polite to those trying to protect you, and in this case he was trying to protect this idiot's house from being broken into a second time. Also, I can't fathom that any potus would chime in on something that he is so far removed from(even though this a_hole is his friend), and at a time when he is trying to cram though one of the most irresponsible unread pieces of legislation since Carter was in office. Seriously, I pray that cop sues the pants off that angry old arrogant bastard. Oh, BTW, Arrogant Bastard is a Great Ale if you care to try it.

[Dave From Canada]

458. I can't understand your mindset. You can't refer to a police offier's mother, and expect to be

ignored. Prof. Gates is partly to blame. And it has nothing to do with THE GODDAMN CONSTITUTION, it has to do with common sense and the law.

[Yavin4]

461. It Has Everything To Do With The Constitution

EVERYTHING. You don't get to arrest people just because they're rude and insulting, esp. in their own home.

[iamapatriot]

465. Its called disorderly conduct

and they arrested him for that plain and simple, That big mouth would not shut up, apologize to the officers, or stop threatening them. Ride along with the police for a night anyone? I dare any of you to do it. But none of you will ride along because you are terrified of seeing the realities these brave people experience everyday protecting you sheeple.

[Yavin4]

470. Let Me Ask You This

According to you, a police officer can arrest you any time, any where for being rude to them or saying something rude to them for disorderly conduct. That's your opinion, correct?

What's there to stop that police officer from abusing his/her authority? According to you, all that a police officer would need is to say that you were rude to him, and bam, you're arrested.

How would defend yourself in a court of law?

[iamapatriot]

474. Yes

That happens all the time, its simply called disorderly conduct, and if you mouth off to an officer, he is most likely going to arrest or detain you. Get it? His job is to protect you and if you are yelling in his face, that is called obstruction of justice. Yeah, believe it or not, you do not have the right to scream and yell at the police for any reason. You are taking your chances.

[Yavin4]

481. Suppose A Cop Says That You Yelled At Him

Even though you didn't. How do you defend yourself?

[Dave From Canada]

493. The cop would have to fill out a report. If he/she is lying, then you'd look to witnesses to

corroborate your version of the incident. You'd hire a lawyer, or be provided with one, and fight the injustice.

[VOX]

464. Nailed it, Yavin4 -- thanks. I just logged on...Jesus to God, what a 5-star shitstorm.

I'm speechless...it's like driving around a bend and happening on a (bloodless) 400-car pileup.

Civility -- gone.
Seeing others' point of view -- gone.
Truly listening -- gone.
Ability to concede points -- gone.
Original spirit of DU -- gone?

[Name removed]

466. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iamapatriot]

468. disorderly? no it was more like he was.......

I should restate what I said >>>>
I should have said that that Arrogant Bastard Professor was "DRUNK and Disorderly". That is the reason why he acted like such an a--hole to the cops.

[iamapatriot]

472. Constitution

NONE of you are Constitutional Scholars, and are all just p-ssing into the wind. These are your uneducated opinions of something 99% of you don't know the first thing about. Please stop this drivel and leave it up to people who are versed in the Constitution and its case law history for interpretation. Heresay and speculation to the max here, sheesh, typical!!

[kayakjohnny]

473. Your point is understandable,

but your condescending tone pretty much sucks a very big dick.

[iamapatriot]

476. too bad

No room on this thread for lively debate or exchange of ideas. I thought as much, oh well.

[McCamy Taylor]

478. Some folks on DU act stupidly, i.e. like Republicans.

[Dave From Canada]

494. As well as Gates.

[MUAD_DIB]

515. Some folks on DU DO act stupidly.

When you want to shut down debate label the other poster as a republican.

[scytherius]

482. If we took to the streets, we could change this nation. We won't. That is why . . .

this is a police state. We don't vote in huge numbers, we just sit on our asses. If we took to the streets like they do in Europe, we could change America in an instant.

[farmboxer]

483. That policeman is a Republican, said he did not vote for Obama.

What they did was wrong. Damned corporate news media is trying to cause trouble. I am not surprised at the Republican Officer being racist. He hates Obama!

[Name removed]

490. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[B Calm]

501. Amazing. . . .

[Dave From Canada]

495. He's not racist, the Professor is, and is the one who stereotyped. The police officer has many .

black members of the police force backing him up, including one who was at the scene of the incident.

[Stellar]

486. Well, it's a good thing police officers don't lie

because there could be lots of innocent (black/Latino) people in jail because of what an officer reported as fact.

Also, I think it would be so easy for people to believe that a black/Latino person was belligerent, disorderly and drunk - - - you know, the usual stereotypical description for those group of people.

And, I think "Illinois Senator Obama" wasted his time ensuring that people(esp. blacks & Latinos) are video taped when accused of crimes and other b.s. accusations because he's seen it all before.

Dylan Ratigan said he's received tickets because his mouth got him in trouble talking back to police officers. One of his black guest said that where Dylan got a ticket, black people were taken to jail for doing the same thing.

When I was a kid (many, many years ago), TV commercials would refer to the police as 'Mr Friendly'. On my side of town they were called 'the stick man' because they would beat a black or latino kid half to death. I'm glad this situation has changed. YEAH RIGHT!!! x(

[Strong Atheist]

517. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[cadmium]

487. Never go broke

with low expectations of the (small)mindset of fringe of DU

[enzymatic]

521. What ammendment covers FISA/wiretapping?

:rofl: :shrug:

[Strong Atheist]

525. Agreed. nt.

[TexasObserver]

526. Yes, the rationalizations for police misconduct have been appalling.