FR: If born in Hawaii, Obama STILL is not "natural born citizen"

[K8-EEE]

WTF!!!! "Jus sanguinis?" What a bunch of fucking Jus nutguinis over there!!!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2299541/posts

As you can see from the intent of the Founding Fathers to the Supreme Court decision that “a natural born” is the child of citizens. A natural born citizen is not the child of an alien. In this there is no doubt. The question now that we seek answered is that Barack Hussein Obama, II is both the child of an alien who never had any intention on becoming a naturalized citizen and the child of a citizen minor. If Barack Hussein Obama, II was in fact born in Hawaii, he is a citizen under Jus soli and afforded all rights any citizen has. But he is not a citizen under Jus sanguinis, because we have laws that dictate how Jus sanguinis citizenship can be transferred. If Barack Hussein Obama, II cannot claim citizenship under Jus sanguinis then he is not a natural born citizen.

[BlooInBloo]

1. So much for the "strict reading".

:rofl:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

2. It's freepers.

They're asstards.

[lindisfarne]

3. How many of our early presidents would have been eligible, under their definition? I think it's good

that they're keeping busy with idiotic stuff like this though. Keeps them from accidentally inflicting any real damage.

[lapfog_1]

9. 10 Presidents were born before the constitution was ratified.

but they are (literally) grandfathered in because of the exception for being a citizen when the constitution was ratified. One (and I can't remember which one) was born here of one parent who was not a US citizen and one who was... the exact situation that these idiots are complaining about now (since the failure of the "there isn't a seal on it" and "there isn't a signature" arguments, along with the now going down in flames "it's not the long form so it's not real" argument.

So they retreat to this one, hoping to find something that will stick. Unfortunately, there is already precedence in this matter (though not settled law) that says that the common law definition of "natural born" is the one intended. Not to mention that another President had a foreign born parent.

Edit to add: There was another President who was born in North Carolina just before the Civil war, when the war broke out, he moved with his father to Atlanta and became citizens of the Confederate States of America (he was 4 years old at the time). So, while a "natural born" citizen, his citizenship was renounced by his father for the duration of the insurrection.

That was Woodrow Wilson.

[boppers]

17. Van Buren was the first born as a citizen.

He spoke Dutch as his first language. ;)

Prior presidents to him were all born as British subjects.

[lapfog_1]

24. Sorry, that's not entirely correct.

He was born in 1782, 5 years before the Constitution was ratified.

John Tyler was the first, but even after he was President (the tenth for those counting), Zachary Taylor (no. 12) was born in 1784, 3 years before the Constitution was adopted.

I use the date of the adoption of the Constitution because that is the operative document that determines eligibility of the office holder.

[boppers]

26. Oooh, a history quibble!

I see your point, if you use the Constitution as the "start date", vs. the Declaration.

But do you celebrate September 17th, or September 3rd, or March 4th, (etc.), rather than July 4th?

..and why did you pick 1787, when only 3 or the 13 states had actually ratified it? Why not March 4th, 1789 (operational date)?

:evilgrin:

[lapfog_1]

28. Going by the start of ratification

but you could pick the later date.

Yeah, it's a nit pick. But 1776 is simply not when all of these "rules" were in play.

BTW, I don't think any President was born after 1787 but before 1789.

Just checked and no, no President was born between those dates.

[krispos42]

40. And don't forget the Articles of Confederation

Ratified March 1, 1781. That was when we became the "United States of America".


Ah, historical chaos!

[lindisfarne]

19. Amazing how interesting Am. history is. There is unsettled law for US citizens (born to US citizens)

outside the country. (In other words, if I was born to US citizens living in Denmark, am I considered a "natural born citizen" since I wasn't born in the US (or in a US territory (Goldwater - AZ), or on a US military base (McCain)). Most think that if you're born outside the country to US citizens, you would be considered eligible for the presidency, but there is legally some room for debate.

The Yale Law review in 1988 had an article discussing what "natural born citizen" meant - the unsettled issues.

But none of it applies to Obama (as I'm sure you know).

[lapfog_1]

21. Correct. There isn't any question that Obama is

a "natural born" citizen of the United States.

[sakabatou]

4. FR is trying to rewrite US history again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Are they dense? Ok rethorical

without using the fancy latin, there are two ways you become a citizen

One of your parents is a US Citizen... mom was

You are born in the country, a territory, military base, or american flagged vessel

Now last time I checked Hawaii was already a State (1959)

So yes, they are stoopid.

That said, all of this... watch the Haunting of a President...and it will make PERFECT SENSE, why we have to call them on the insanity

[alfredo]

42. No, they are looking for justification for violence against Obama.

[and-justice-for-all]

6. So the people of Hawaii are not US citizens...

even though Hawaii is US territory? aka part of the union as is Guam? I would guess to say, I might be reaching here so bare with me, that if people in those outlying territories get to VOTE in our elections, then they are in fact US CITIZENS.

And if I am not mistaken, in that the above posted babble from FR, John McCain would not be a US citizen.

Obama's mother, was born in Kansas, where she then moved to Hawaii where she gave birth to Obama and hos half sister who is still in Hawaii.

I wonder what it must feel like to continuously bang ones head against a brick wall....Those people are beyond reasoning and commonsense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Slight corrections here

Hawaii became a state in '59, he was born in '61 so the point is moot.

Territorial citizens can vote in the primaries to the Presidential but not the actual election

They also have only congress critters and no senators.

Current US Territories, Guam. Puerto Rico and the American Virgin Islands.

[K8-EEE]

11. No now it's the fer'ner dad who makes him not "natural born"

Unbelievable....

[alittlelark]

7. Sad that so few are able to misguide so many.

I actually feel sorry for those that believe this tripe.

They are sadly lacking in critical thinking abilities.

I would assume they graduated after '85 from an inferior school.

Reagan gutted all critical thinking curriculum in the 80's


The other believers in this BS CHOOSE to be IGNORANT.

[BlooInBloo]

12. Those many WANT to be misguided. I don't feel sorry for them.

[opihimoimoi]

8. clinton and mccane shoulda use this last year? yeah...right

[Chulanowa]

13. Before I saw Freerepublic, I never knew anyone could be wrong 100% of the time

Now I know it's apparently a common enough disorder to count as a fucking political movement

[Twinguard]

44. +1

[Mythsaje]

14. And how many of the founding fathers were born here?

Just asking...

[Hugabear]

15. Never underestimate the stupidity of a freeper

Just when you think they can't get any dumber, they go and out-dumb themselves.

[cherish44]

16. His daddy was a colored man from Africuh

So Obama ain't an American cuz he's not only the son of a negro but the son of a negro who weren't American born! He's a FRAUD!

[JaneQPublic]

18. Phsht. By that logic, none of the founding fathers could've been president.

Was Washington a "child of citizens?" Nope.

Adams? Jefferson? Of course not.

In fact, by their reasoning, we may have not had a legitimate president until John Quincy Adams.

Jeez Louise, you'd be hard-pressed to find two brain cells to rub together over there in Freeperland.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. No, not John Quincy

dad and mom were not natural born citizens.

:-)

Try later...

But you are getting close.

[kskiska]

48. Then, by the birthers' reckoning, John Quincy Adams' offspring

would have been ineligible to be president, since their mother was born in Britain.

LOUISA CATHERINE JOHNSON ADAMS
B.1775 -- D.1852

Only First Lady born outside the United States, Louisa Catherine Adams did not come to this country until four years after she had married John Quincy Adams. Political enemies sometimes called her English. She was born in London to an English mother, Catherine Nuth Johnson, but her father was American--Joshua Johnson, of Maryland--and he served as United States consul after 1790.

A career diplomat at 27, accredited to the Netherlands, John Quincy developed his interest in charming 19-year-old Louisa when they met in London in 1794. Three years later they were married, and went to Berlin in course of duty. …

more…
http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/first_ladies/louisaadams/

[HughMoran]

22. This is fantastic stuff - I hope they keep persuing this ad infinitum

What the heck, right? Let them play thier little games - it's keeps their feeble little minds occupied.

[Naturyl]

25. It also makes the GOP look ridiculous

So yeah, have a ball with it, guys. Don't stop now.

[pnwmom]

23. President Chester Arthur's father was a citizen of Ireland

at the time of Arthur's birth.

[GaYellowDawg]

27. "jud sanguinis" - right of blood. It all comes back the same thing for them.

The President's mother was an American citizen. She fulfilled all of the residential requirements. Therefore, by blood or any other standard, the President is a natural born citizen. How like a Freeper, though, to view the President's African father as tainting his blood - that's what it comes down to, and we all know it.

[K8-EEE]

39. I agree! It's all about racism and the fact that

a man with african roots is in charge. It short circuited them totally! Like whatever left of their brains exploded.

[AspenRose]

29. They MIGHT have had an argument had Obama been born out of the country

....because of the Uniform Rule of Naturalization Act of 1790, which says that the children of American citizens born outside of the US are considered natural born citizens EXCEPT for those whose fathers have never had residence in the United States.

So I think this is why so many of them want to try to prove he was born in Kenya. Of course, had he been born in Kenya, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad would have been issued, because of his American mom. (The Consular Report of Birth Abroad doesn't confer citizenship, but is meant to document that a child has been born overseas to at least one American parent.) Also, in a situation such as this, if BOTH parents are American, even if born overseas, the child would be considered "native born" (which is why this does not affect John McCain). Obama would definitely be considered a citizen under these circumstances, but it would have to be determined whether he would have been considered "native born" since he only had one American parent.

But since he was born in Hawaii....(A STATE, you idiots!) it doesn't matter. Jus Sanguinis or Jus Soli, doesn't matter. He was born in one of the 50 states. The State Department says that the concept of Jus Sanguinis is not in the Constitution, but is rather granted by statutes. And since laws change all the time, it stands to reason that the requirements for Jus Sanguinis change as well. Jus Soli, however, is embodied in the 14th Amendment.

And as for all this yelling about having a birth certificate that has the name of the doctor, hospital, etc. etc., the State Department ALSO says that ALL that is needed to establish a claim of United States citizenship is a certificate that shows: The full name of the person, date and place of birth, the signature of the custodian of birth records, and the raised seal of the issuing office. And it must be filed within one year after the birth.

7 Fam 1100 Acquisition and Retention of US Citizenship and Nationality

http://tiny.cc/HE6vM

Sorry, Birthers.

[krispos42]

30. He is not a citizen under Jus Sanguinis

However, we use Jus Soli. So this freeper can go shove it. If the first baseman went and tackled the runner, the fact that it would be legal in football is irrelevant.


And the intent of the Founding Fathers was not to have a Unitary Executive... yet these assholes voted for Bush anyway and loudly and vocally supported Bush as Unitary Executive.

[WeDidIt]

43. Bingo! Jus Soli is the precedence set in US v. Wong Kim Ark

Jus Sanguinis was the standard argued in the dissenting opinion in that case.

[krispos42]

45. Activist Judges! Activist Judges! Activist Ju-

*click* Clean-up in aisle 5. Can I get a mop to aisle 5 please? *click*

[no_hypocrisy]

31. Original Intent

The kind of interpretation that Scalia and Thomas like so much.

Why not make "natural born" restricted to the thirteen original colonies. Make it simple.

Jesus, this is getting really out of control with what "natural born" means.

[zbdent]

32. Freeptards are more welcoming of Elian Gonzales as a "citizen" than they are of

Obama ...

and if you think about it ... they wanted to tear the kid from his natural father that he knew all his life and hand the kid to some "relatives" that he never knew before in his life ... (Well, if you're a kid, and someone takes you to Disneyland, you're going to want to go with that "parent" ...)

that was all to score political points ... the kid was just a pawn in their PR chess game ...

[eShirl]

33. so by extension, an American whose biological father is unknown couldn't become president?

You have to be able to prove that both parents were American citizens?

[pipi_k]

50. It's probably OK if the father was an animal

Bush's father was a Peruvian jackass

[specialed]

34. § 1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1401.html

The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;
(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;
(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;
(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;
(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and
(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.

[scheming daemons]

35. There are only two ways to obtain citizenship in this country:

By birth (natural-born)

By naturalization (i.e Mr. Swarzenegger)


Obama obtained his citizenship at the occassion of his birth, and is therefore a natural-born citizen.



There are not THREE classes of citizenship, as the mistaken freeper claims. Only two.

You're either born with it, or you obtain it later.


The framers said that only those born with citizenship could be President.


Obama qualifies.

[Kind of Blue]

38. Oh, yeah. They are petitioning to amend the law

to allow Arnold Schwarzenegger to run for president. :crazy: http://www.petitiononline.com/robnlisa/petition.html

[City Lights]

36. Whatev...

The lunatics will never be satisfied. If it wasn't the birth certificate issue, they'd have found something else to cling to. It's the RW way.

[Maine-ah]

37. there is a reasonable voice in that link, actually 2

To: real_patriotic_american
I don’t buy this argument. He is his mother’s son. She is a US citizen.



4 posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:46:22 PM by villagerjoel (1. Implement socialist policies 2. ??? 3. Heaven on earth)
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse>


To: villagerjoel
I don’t buy this argument. He is his mother’s son. She is a US citizen.
This is why the birthers give conservatism a bad name....by clear omissions of facts that do not help their cause.


5 posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:49:46 PM by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies | Report Abuse>

[WeDidIt]

41. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Freepers are citing a minority dissent in United States v. Wong Kim Ark.
Minority opinions have no force of law, nor are they considered precedent.

Stupid Freepers.

[DefenseLawyer]

46. When wingnuts start throwing Latin around, the hilarity ensues

This kind of quasi-legal analysis reminds me of the "fringe on the flag" nuts that I encountered rather often 10 or 15 years ago. These were mostly tax protester/ freeman militia types who had this long complicated (and completely fallacious) "legal" analysis about state and federal court jurisdiction and "admiralty courts" which ultimately came down to whether or not the American flag in the courtroom had a gold fringe. I kid you not. Glad to see the great legal minds of the lunatic fringe are back in business.

[LeftishBrit]

47. Wow

I suppose that Winston Churchill wasn't a British citizen, because his mother was American?

[pipi_k]

49. Roast beef au jus sanguinis

with grilled baby potatoes and steamed aspersions



:7

[K8-EEE]

53. LOL roasted freeper conspiracy theory au jus! Extra nuts, please. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

51. They need to just get down to it and admit it: They don't consider black Americans to be "real"

Americans. That's it in a nutshell right there. "Real" Americans are white folk that work fer a livin' and pay their taxes. "Real" Americans don't have no furriners in their family tree!

[Obamanaut]

52. "Jus nutguinis" Howled out loud at this one, much better than LOL. thanks N/T

[K8-EEE]

54. His mother was "to young to confer" citizenship on him???

“Stanley Ann Dunham was 18 years of age at the moment of Barack’s birth. She would have needed to have been at least 19 years of age to confer US citizenship upon him.”

I love how they resort to using middle names whenever they want to be all serious-like. LOL! I remember a lot of "William Jefferson Clinton" posts back in the day.

[Odin2005]

55. That they are going after his dad is proof that it's all about race.