Police should arrest folks for CRIMES not RUDENESS.

[IdaBriggs]

Frankly, that is what the Gates arrest boils down to -- for whatever reason, Mr. Gates was arrested because he was perceived as being rude and impolite to a police officer.

Rude is *NOT* a crime.

The officer was completely in the right to investigate a citizen's report of potential trouble. However, once the situation was deemed to be NOT TROUBLE (by the homeowner providing identification proving they lived there), the appropriate response was "Thank you for your time, sorry for the trouble, just want to make sure you are safe, have a nice day," and then --

THE OFFICER SHOULD HAVE LEFT SO HE COULD BE AVAILABLE TO HANDLE *REAL* TROUBLES.

This should have been a 5 minute call; instead, it ended up involving more than half a dozen officers, and lasted hours. (Were these guys just bored? It was noon, after all. Perhaps all of the local criminals were on lunch break!) :eyes:

This officer displayed poor judgment in creating an antagonist situation with an annoyed, but law-abiding citizen. Furthermore, the officer wasted valuable community resources by ARRESTING said law-abiding citizen. This cost everyone time and money -- from the officer(s) unavailable to respond to other issues in the community while "arresting" and then dealing with the inevitable paperwork, down the line to the clerks in the courthouse. It was a colossal WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY -- hence, the adjective STUPID.

Only an idiot would assume the color of the gentleman's skin wasn't an issue, especially after the perception was obviously in place in the community that the police were "racially profiling" minorities (and the officer would be aware of that, since he taught classes on it). But that aside, RUDE IS NOT A CRIME, and an officer who is taking time arresting people for ANNOYED AND RUDE isn't doing the job the community needs him to be doing.

The officer owes the citizen an apology, and should be reprimanded for wasting department resources in such a ridiculous fashion.

[MajorChode]

1. You're assuming things you can't know for sure

I'm not really even sure where you're getting your information from.

If you believe Gates' version of the events, he was never rude, cooperative, and was arrested for absolutely no reason:
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,0

If you believe the police version of the events, it's a pretty clear case of disorderly conduct(if there is such a thing):
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

So which version are you going with, or are you simply forming your own version?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jeep789]

7. Disorderly conduct?

On ones own property? I don't see anything in your link that gives cause for an arrest. The OP was correct. The officer should have understood why the homeowner might be upset, apologized for the inconvenience, given his badge number, left and reported the incident to his boss. There was absolutely no reason for an arrest.

[MajorChode]

23. You may want to read the police report again

According to police, the officer provided his name to Gates more than once, and it alleges that Gates' didn't hear it because he was ranting. Also according to police, Gates continued to rant and yell outside and was warned twice before being arrested. That's exactly what the disorderly conduct charge covers, and if the same thing were to happen to anyone, white, black, or whatever and they don't STFU after the police repeatedly warn them, then they are probably going to go to jail.

[EmilyAnne]

8. But even the officer's account doesn't justify an arrest.

Early in the exchange, the officer admits that he knew Gates was not a burglar.
So, why did he linger?
He got his feeling hurt for being called "racist"?
Is it against the law to call a cop racist?
Is it against the law to yell from your porch during the day time?
Is it against the law to tell a cop that he shouldn't mess with you?
Come on.
The cop let his ego control him.

[polmaven]

14. I will agree on all but one point...

Sometimes yes, it is against the law to yell from your porch during the daytime. If it is causing a disturbance, or is loud enough to be "disturbing the peace", or if it is likely to incite some violence....yes. it is against the law.

Cambridge police are considering if they should release the tapes of Officer Crowley's radio conversations with the headquarters. I'm sure that may reveal more of the facts.

[MajorChode]

18. Disorderly conduct doesn't require inciting violence

and if inciting violence was involved, I suspect there would have been other charges. So I don't think that inciting violence had anything to do with it.

[polmaven]

24. I didn't say it did.

That is why I used to word OR. I gave 3 DIFFERENT suggestions.

[MajorChode]

26. That clarifies what you said

I just wasn't sure why you would list 'inciting violence' as one of the options when I have seen no such allegations and it doesn't apply to the statute in question. That's all.

[TexasObserver]

10. Wrong. Either version the cop was wrong.

The cop's job is to verify the person there has a right to be there, and then leave. It's not to get his big, undeserved ego in the middle of things, and arrest a citizen whose only crime was wondering why an uppity cop was trying to boss him around in his own home.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. The excuse for wanting to continue outside sounds ridiculous

"I again told Gates I would speak with him outside. My reason for wanting to leave the residence was that Gates was yelling very loud and the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units".

He's either dealing with Gates, or he isn't. They already know it's not a break-in (he'd already "radioed (his) findings to ECC"). He doesn't need to interrupt what Gates is saying/shouting to radio in (and he knows there's another officer there who can deal with the witness outside). And once outside, he promptly arrests Gates for 'disorderly conduct' in a public place - Gates' porch.

It sounds like an excuse to get Gates outside where the officer thinks he'll have an excuse to arrest him.

[MajorChode]

20. Gates' story has less believability

If you read Gates' account, he did absolutely nothing wrong, he was being polite through the whole incident, and the police arrested him for simply being black.

You must also remember that there was at least one civilian witness, several police officers from more than one department, and the radio transmissions are all recorded. So to believe what you're suggesting means you have to believe both officers lied on their reports when they knew about all that other evidence that would have betrayed them. You also have the police commissioner fully supporting the officers when one can only assume he is privy to all or most of that information.

According to the police account, he didn't exactly promptly arrest Gates', but warned him twice before doing so.

[Th1onein]

17. There is no such thing as disorderly conduct on your own property.

Nope. Not a crime. The cop should be, at the very least, disciplined. If I were his boss, I'd fire his ass. And Gates? He ought to sue the shit out of him and the department.

[IdaBriggs]

27. I have read approximately half a dozen different versions at this point

all from legitimate news sources. The one that finally prompted this post was the quote from the officer that it wasn't the words but the "tone." (Yes, communication is 80% body language, 15% vocal inflection, and 5% actual words -- I get that. But everyone is in agreement that the citizen was in his own home, and was *NOT* a criminal.)

All are clear the citizen "demanded" the officer's name and badge, which was not provided to him by the officer. The gentleman was arrested on his own front porch.

When asked by a law abiding citizen, the appropriate response of a police officer is TO PROVIDE YOUR NAME AND BADGE NUMBER. A wise officer is able to communicate effectively with citizens such that he should have been being THANKED PROFUSELY for prompt response in watching out for the citizen's property. A humorous comment, a thicker skin when dealing with an irate, but honest citizen, and some empathy on the part of the officer (once it was determined he wasn't dealing with a criminal, which happened when the elderly man provided two forms of identification proving it was his home), and none of us would be having this conversation.

Furthermore, I am 100% convinced this officer handled the situation poorly *BECAUSE* it escalated into an arrest situation.

The facts speak for themselves: the gentleman was *NOT* committing a crime when he began dealing with the police officer. Asking, demanding, or speaking impolitely to an officer IS NOT A CRIME.

The officer a) misused department resources by escalating this into an arrest situation; b) abused his authority/damaged the public's trust in the good judgment of the officers; and c) has created a public scandal involving his department by not being able to defuse a simple problem without it escalating into an arrest.

Reprimands and apologies are in order.

[MajorChode]

29. It's not quite as clear as you claim

All are clear the citizen "demanded" the officer's name and badge, which was not provided to him by the officer.

Officer Crowley's report states that Gates asked him for his name only 3 times and he provided it twice, and those requests were made in the presence of Officer Figueroa who doesn't contradict him.

[Skip Intro]

2. Fuck you, you motherfucking cop, you can't touch me!

There's a line crossed before you get to that.

[MajorChode]

3. Here's to hoping none of us find out where that is

[ContinentalOp]

4. it IS a crime to be rude to an OFFICER OF THE LAW!

I mean, these people aren't regular lowly civilians. They are our betters. They demand to be given the proper deference.

[TheKentuckian]

5. That's fuckin' A right and when a cop nabs you for speeding and then flies off at 120

they are just dealing with the pressures of their occupation. Or when they turn on the blue and whites to run lights. Or. Or. Or. Or.

[sendero]

16. I treat cops with respect..

... but if one treated my like this I'd be yelling too. This guy got mad for being called on his racist bullshit, simple as that.

And cops do this shit (arrest people because they can) way too much. Enough is enough. You do NOT GET AUTOMATIC RESPECT just because you are a police officer. Any moron can become a policeman and apparently many have.

[MajorChode]

28. So where is the "racist bullshit"?

That's all I want to know. Even if you look at Gates' statement, it doesn't support that charge.

A witness saw someone putting their shoulder into the front door of the house. Even Gates admits that much. So obviously the police had cause to investigate. Nothing racist there. Gates claims he offered his id when initially asked, but that account is contradicted by the report of at least two officers. The officer was leaving prior to the time the arrest was made and Gates pursued him. Even Gates admits that much.

[cabluedem]

38. Most beat cops are sadists. Only dedicated cops become detectives IMO. NT

[Hugabear]

34. "They are our betters" - sorry, massa, didn't mean to get uppity wit you!

:sarcasm::sarcasm:

[TexasObserver]

9. Yes, the cop and the department owe the world an apology.

There is no defense of the cop's action. None.

[Eric68601]

11. Something I noticed

OK, so I read the incident report

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF <--right wing site, sorry

While I don't know that there was anything racial about it, I do question one thing in particular.

The cops claim that he asked Gates to step outside because the acoustics in the kitchen and foyer prevented him from sending info to ECC. I've worked with the type of communication receivers the cops use, the kind that clip onto your shoulder, which is what I am assuming he was using. I have used these in very loud places where you couldn't even hear yourself talk very well, and still communications were clear transmitting and receiving. I find it improbable that he couldn't relay a message to ECC even with Mr. Gates yelling. Which makes me wonder WHY he was asked to step outside... Perhaps with the expectation that he would keep yelling and could then be subsequently arrested for disturbing the peace outside of his home?

I'm not saying that is the case, but it could be perceived as entrapment wouldn't ya say? Makes me wondewr if there is a recording of the cops conversation with ECC and if Mr. Gate's can be heard distorting communications.

[kedrys]

12. What I'd like to know is

Didn't the neighbor who called it in recognize Mr. Gates? Why not? I can't help but think that something else is going on here.

And asking a cop for his/her name and badge number is neither rude nor against the law. I'm sure Gates was pissed (I would have been too), but all the cop had to do is verify Gates lived there, apologize for the inconvenience and leave.

[Life Long Dem]

15. No, the cop did nothing wrong.

The cops can just walk into any house they want and arrest anyone they want in your own home for not shutting up.

No, nothing wrong here.

[seabeyond]

21. sheeeeit, they can even shoot fuckin old men sleeping on THEIR couch. n/t

[seabeyond]

22. ok, lol lol.... though that happened, the way i said it might be a tad extreme. n/t

[polmaven]

25. That is NOT what happened,

and you know it. The exaggeration and twisting of facts in this statement is astonishing.

[MajorChode]

31. It's clear that quite a few people don't want to discuss the facts

They simply want to make appeals to emotion.

I sometimes wonder why people want to post repeatedly to "General Discussion" when they have no intent of discussing anything.

[polmaven]

35. Agreed....

The next thing you know, we will be hearing that Officer Crowley just randomly walks door to door in Cambridge looking for African Americans to arrest.

[Odin2005]

19. He was arrested for being black.

Crowley assumed that since Gates is black he MUST be a criminal breaking into a white guy's home. Once he had egg on his head he tried to find an excuse to arrest him anyway in order to save face.

[FloriTexan]

30. Ms. Whalen...the white woman who reported the incident...

was a busy body out for a walk and didn't know the homeowner and assumed, since it was a couple of black men something was up.

[MajorChode]

32. She saw one of them crashing the front door and forcing it open

Even Gates admits that much.

What would you think if you saw anyone (white, black, brown, or whatever) busting in the front door of a home?

[KansDem]

36. Good thing this wasn't Pasadena, Texas, or Joe Horn would've blown them both away...

...with his shotgun. And walked...

[XanaDUer]

41. Wow

I just read that transcript, and Horn willfully walked outside to shoot them. After being told over and over again to let the authorities handle it.

And he walked?

[FloriTexan]

37. If it was broad daylight...

I would consider that I was right there watching it happen, I would consider that I didn't know the homeowner. I would ask myself is someone actually going to force down a door and break in through someone's front door in broad-freaking daylight with people passing on the street staring them down. I would make a mental note of their descriptions. I would try to make eye contact with them so they knew someone was watching. I've actually been there done that with a house in my own neighborhood. I was out walking, I knew the homeowners, I knew they had been having trouble with teenagers in the neighborhood and I passed their house one day and saw a couple of teens lurking by their front door acting suspicous. Homeowners were white, teens were hispanic and black. I waved at them, smiled at them, said hello, made sure they saw me giving them a good once over and they moved on. I then emailed the homeowner to let them know what I saw. The kids could have been doing anything. They live in my neighborhood and I didn't need them coming after me. I tried to be smart about it and not be racist in my assumptions.

I walk my neighborhood every day. I meet people on other streets, I recognize most of the kids that play. Its called being aware and involved.

[suffragette]

39. Given the taxi parked out front and the fact that one of the men was elderly

and likely had a cane, I don't think I'd leap to the assumption that they breaking in.

Add that he's a prominent professor at Harvard and she works at Harvard magazine as a fundraiser and you'd think she'd recognize him.

[MzNov]

33. this is exactly what it looks like

talking back to cops is not a crime. Just don't tell them that.

[MrScorpio]

40. Sweet post

Thanks, Ida