I don't shop at stores that use foreign languages to hide their intentions from customers.

[Kurska]

I'm not the kind of person who would ever judge someone for not knowing English or not speaking english very well if they do know it. I understand that English is a very hard language to learn and even harder to master, especially for people not of European decent and who therefore share almost no linguist roots between English and their native language. I don't even expect all the employees of a business to speak English, atleast as long as it doesn't get in the way of their job.

That said, I've always been a little sensitive when two people perfectly proficient in English turn to each other and begin to converse amongst themselves in a shared foreign language. It is pretty rude in social situations, especially if it is abrupt, but I outright refuse to patronize businesses that use this as a way of hiding things from their customers. If I'm giving you business I entirely expect you to be upfront and clear with me, if it is important enough to say in front of me, It is important enough for me to understand. At least have the decency to go into a backroom and do it there, not use another tongue to talk behind my back right in front of me.

Do I have the right to expect a businessman and employee who speaks English to speak English? Or am I just not being culturally accepting enough?

Oh and just for the record, I'm not talking about Spanish. In my part of Florida this mostly happens with Russian or Ukrainian, not that we don't have alot of Spanish speakers, it is just they tend not to do this sort of thing.

[bluestateguy]

1. We had a Korean owned cleaners in my old neighborhood like this

Terrible service, and terrible performance.

[Bumblebee]

3. and all because they were Korean? That all belongs on Lou Dobbs more than here...

[Bumblebee]

2. How do you know they are hiding something from you? They probably

do it because they are used to speaking to each other in Russian or Ukrainian. Why not tell them politely that it makes you uncomfortable instead of assuming they have evil purposes in mind?

[ColbertWatcher]

...

[babylonsister]

5. Thank you. Agree. nt

[varelse]

4. thanks for setting the trap

I'll just hang out and see what sticks ;)

[MADem]

6. Some people have trouble with language, and their mother tongue is easier for them to use.

Others feel stupid talking to someone who is native in their language in a different language.

No one, though, is forcing you to patronize places where you feel uncomfortable.

If you don't like the shopkeepers, by all means, withhold your custom.

[htuttle]

7. How many languages do you speak?

I only speak one language proficiently. If I had to speak another for my job, I'd probably want to fall back on English if I was talking to another native English speaker. It would be a lot more comfortable for me.

[PSzymeczek]

62. I studied German extensively

But it's been a while, so I'm sort of rusty.

[FarCenter]

8. Russians and Ukranians are of European descent

Or do you have another group in mind?

[Bumblebee]

13. Thanks for pointing it out

And their languages are, of course, Indo-European, like English, just not "Germanic" but "Slavic" -- as opposed to Hungarian or Finnish which are not Indo-European at all so it has absolutely nothing to do even with Europe... but these are all unnecessary nuances of course... :-)

[Kurska]

17. I said the "Non-european descent" thing only because I understand how hard it is for people who

aren't that to learn English because of the lack of similarity between the language. Almost every time this has happened to me, the person is question was of European descent speaking a somewhat related language.

I've taken some courses in German (English's sister language) and Chinese (Just about as far away as you can get), so I think I understand very clearly the huge difference that linguistic commonality can have on trying to learn a language.

[Bumblebee]

20. Lots of Russians and Ukrainians actually speak excellent English; it's, btw,

NOT a hard language to learn. And most Europeans speak many more languages than Americans do. I think the problem lies with you, not with them. If you feel uncomfortable, ask them to speak English but don't assume they are plotting against you.

[Kurska]

21. If you speak perfect english most of the time and suddenly shift into another language infront of me

I'm rightfully going to assume that the reason is probably that you don't want me to understand what you are saying. Since I am the customer and I find that highly unacceptable. I don't see what is wrong with that.

[Bumblebee]

24. It was Russian mafia, I am sure, and they were plotting to do you enormous harm.

Better hide!

[Kurska]

29. Thanks for the tip, I'm heading off to a undisclosed location as we speak n/t

[noamnety]

56. When I lived in Europe

sometimes we would switch to English with each other while we were out shopping because while we were talking to each other in our easiest language. We weren't speaking about the shop owners when we did that, we weren't going out of our way to hide our words, but we didn't feel any special obligation to ensure they could eavesdrop on our every word when it didn't concern them at all.

It sounds like when they are addressing you, they make an effort to speak in your language, and when they are speaking in their own tongue, it's because they aren't addressing you. Perhaps if you spent less time eavesdropping and felt less like it was your "right" to eavesdrop on everyone else's conversations, you'd be a happier person.

[david13]

9. Disagree totally. n/t

[DefenseLawyer]

10. Do they point at you and giggle?

That's a dead giveaway.

[ColbertWatcher]

30. Actually, they're planning on installing one of their foreign-born children as president ...

... in about 40 years.

They can't afford to let us hear their preliminary planning.

[Bumblebee]

34. The birth announcement will hit all Florida papers tomorrow -- you just watch!

[ColbertWatcher]

64. Yup. But, it will be one of those Furr-in papers, also written in code! n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

11. I am clicking "unrec" for this thread.

I find it xenophobic and an opportunity to just unload on people "not like us".

[noamnety]

47. That was the first thing I did as well.

But it did at least remind me to stop by the deli counter at my local store - the guy working there is an older immigrant living alone, and the last time I saw him he was talking to another guy who was shopping, discussing how difficult life is for him. At the time I was thinking I should invite him over to dinner with us, but then I never followed up on it.

[Maru Kitteh]

51. I agree.

[gleaner]

12. If you don't understand what ......

they are saying, are you sure they are doing what you think they are?

It is up to you to shop where you like and do other business where you are the most comfortable, but if two people share a native language it would seem perfectly natural to me if they spoke to each other in their native tongue. It doesn't have to be anything sinister, it may just be more natural to them.

I live in L.A. which is a very diverse city. If I go into a business run by people who speak a language I don't understand, I don't think too much about it. I do what I went there to do and leave. It doesn't offend me or make me feel they are somehow conspiring to cheat me.

I think if you go into their business and they deal with you in English and answer all of your questions, that you have done OK. I don't agree that you have the "right" to expect them to speak only English in your presence. It is their establishment. Have you ever tried asking them to speak so that you can understand as well? They might very well do it. Most businesses want to make a profit and understand that making a profit means pleasing their customers. You never know unless you try.:shrug:

[glowing]

14. I think its frustrating that the education in this country ill prepared me for

being able to speak multiple languages. I know for a fact that people do this in order to hide a situation or speak behind the person who doesn't understand what they are saying on purpose. Some of our staff speak a different language... when they speak to one another about a situation, they do it in a way that would normally get the person fired. I understand enough Spanish to relate to my boss what they are doing and saying and how her words are being distorted in front of her face. There is nothing she can do because she cannot understand their words.

Its a tough call, I would totally speak another language with my friend outside of someone else being able to understand me in order to talk about or say something that I wouldn't want the other person to hear. So, if I want to be totally honest.. I'm extremely jealous that I don't have a way to do this myself.

AND the end result: I'm back to the header, this country's education system has ill prepared me to compete in the global world.

[Bumblebee]

16. every college and university teach multiple languages so if you went to one

blaming "education" is probably not fair -- as opposed to your own lack of interest in them at the time... But it's definitely true for high schools.

[Kurska]

19. I took german in highschool and will probably have to learn chinese for my future job.

Both of these educations took place in the American school system, either public or at the university level.

[glowing]

36. I did take Spanish in h.s. and college.. however the best time to teach language

is when children are first learning languages.. In elementary school. This is what many other countries will do.. teach English early and often as well as other languages. The reason I can understand what some of my co-workers are saying is because I had to take the courses. However, I think first in English and then try and translate into Spanish. I cannot speak it fluently.. just simple sentences.

However, if you start early in a child's educational life.. they will actually learn and comprehend the language much better than an older child who is stuck on one language.. For instance.. Say I want to say tree in Spanish.. First I think "tree", then I translate "arbol"... Where as a younger child first learning new words will think arbol when they see the tree if they are in their Spanish class. There is a difference... and it should be taught much earlier.. and there is no reason a friend from France can say I speak 5 languages.. and really speak 5 languages.. and a child in the US can only really ever speak English.. unless they come from a home that speaks another language as well.. like Spanish, German.. or whatever country of origin the family is from.

I'm thinking of getting that Rosetta program and really trying hard to learn Spanish. I live in FL now...not VT where the need for Spanish wasn't needed at all. I'd like my son to learn it too... so as to compete with the children who know both languages much better. There are jobs that pay more money if you know both Spanisha and English.. there are other jobs that will only hire bi-ligual speaking persons. Only learning English is a negative for our entire country.. shit even the Bush's know Espanol.

[FSogol]

15. It is not about you. Living in a free country means you can speak however you wish. n/t

[Kurska]

18. My money and my desire to spend it is entirely about me.

And If I don't feel comfortable and the shopowner refuses to do such a small thing to atleast humor me, I don't have to spend my money there.

I've been to restaurants where the owner basically just understood enough english to take orders and I've been to stores where the owner spoke perfect English but the employees spoke none, I GET THAT. I do not however find it acceptable to try and use a foreign language to basically hide what you're saying from a paying customer.

[Bumblebee]

22. With all due respect, I think you are awfully paranoid... and kinda xenophobic

Learning Chinese would be good for you...

[Kurska]

26. I honestly have no problem with other languages or cultures, I find them fascinating.

I do however, don't like when the people who should be treating me with the respect a customer is due suddenly decides that they can talk behind my back by using another language.

I really can't stress this enough, if one of them doesn't speak or speaks poor english I get it. However, if they are both perfectly fluent I don't see why I as the customer should accept being suddenly pushed out of the loop.

[Bumblebee]

28. Re-read your statement and tell me if you yourself speak good English...

[Kurska]

33. It is a forum and getting late, what do you expect shakespeare?

I don't see why we need to bring grammar into this. That coupled with the fact you're starting to imply I'm a paranoid bigot makes me thing you've already given up on any sort of constructive dialog.

[Bumblebee]

38. From someone who complains about foreigners and their bad language skills and habits

yes... I suspect they write in their native languages -- or even in English -- better than that :-)

[Kurska]

55. Bad language skills? I'm honestly flattered when a non-native makes the effort to speak english.

Trying to learn, master or atleast take a stab at the local language to make your customers feel more comfortable is the very sort of action that will bring me back to a place of business.

Using it consistently and constantly even if it isn't easy for you is the a kind of effort that goes beyond what is expected and really makes me feel welcome in a business.

[Bumblebee]

59. How patronizing...

[Kurska]

61. Wrong word. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

53. The op may or may not be paranoid

I have Portuguese relatives who do this to gossip about people walking by. I have an Aunt who makes a habit of it. It happens. It is rude. If the employees are doing this eventually they will do it in front of someone who is bilingual and speaks both the languages in question. The business will then lose a customer.
The situation however, may have been completely innocent. No way to know for sure. :shrug:

[prolesunited]

23. Paranoid much?

Yes, they were making fun of you. Feel better?

If you don't like it, don't shop there. Simple (and narrow-minded) as that. You may recall that the U.S. has no official language and as time goes by, you'll hear more and more things you don't understand. Personally, I think it is really cool to go into Chicago and hear so many different languages. It makes me feel worldly, not like some dumb hick in the burbs.

[Bumblebee]

25. Agree wholeheartedly -- but not for the crowd who "want their country back!"

[eilen]

31. I think it is kind of rude.

but most likely not intentional.

[FSogol]

46. I think you should read up on a form of Agoraphobia called Social Phobia.

Good luck.

[Kurska]

48. Apparently, wanting consideration from the person I am buying from is a social phobia.

The knees are really jerking tonight.

[MineralMan]

70. Sounds like you have some other issue than the one

you're describing here. Your assumption that they're talking about you is basically silly. You're just not that important to them, I imagine. If you dislike that store, go elsewhere.

I shop sometimes in a Hmong market here, where English simply is not spoken, and very few people who are not Hmong ever go there. I can say hello and goodbye and thank you in Hmong, but that's it. So, my transactions there are generally done silently. The cash register shows the total, and that's all I need. I select my items, take them to the register, say "hello" in their language. I pay for my goods, then say "thank you" and "goodbye" and take my purchases out of the store.

What they might be talking about in Hmong is irrelevant to me. I don't assume that they're talking about me, since I'm just a customer who's buying some ingredients for a meal. I'm really not that important to them.

[marmar]

27. You expect them to speak English, even if they're not speaking directly to you?

Anglophone hubris knows no bounds.

[Kurska]

37. If they are speaking infront of or about something concering me yes I do.

If they don't want to I can't make them, I do however have the right not to shop there.

[ContinentalOp]

32. Those shifty Russians.

Always talking about me behind my back. Damn commies.

[Kurska]

35. My family emigrated from Russia around 1900.

Again I really don't view this as a cultural thing.

[Bumblebee]

40. and I am sure while here, when they were talking to each other, even if

"natives" were around, they spoke Russian -- or Yiddish, if they were Russian Jews...

[Kurska]

42. Which is fine, but when in a business atmosphere I think the rules change a little. n/t

[Mrs. Overall]

71. So, now you are saying that you yourself are of Russian descent?

Oh, do keep talking. This tale is fascinating.

[Toucano]

39. How many languages do you speak?

If you speak more than one, I bet you can relate to times when it is simply easier and faster to communicate with someone in your shared native language.

It takes less effort.

You can only expect people to speak English when speaking to you.

[Kurska]

41. I can't expect to know what is going on around me at a business?

The same reason I like when people make the extra effort to keep their mostly english speaking customers happy is why I like restaurants where the food is prepared within eyesight.

[Bumblebee]

43. Are you afraid they are plotting to poison you otherwise?

I think you have serious psychological issues. It's not even funny.

[Kurska]

45. You've obviously never worked at a restaurant.

If you think everything that goes on is entirely on the level. I don't think I've ever met a person who doesn't like when their food is being prepared within eyesight. I find it pretty entertaining on top of it being transparent as a matter of fact.

On edit, I don't want it to sound like I only eat at places like that, I just find them nice.

[noamnety]

44. One of the ironies here

Is that you are so convinced that someone is talking about you - simply because they are conversing in their own tongue.

And yet you are the one that is gossiping and complaining about them, both in this thread and by your own admission behind their back in some backroom. Projection is a funny thing, like an adulterer becoming paranoid that his wife must be cheating on him.

It's good for people in the majority (people with privilege) to put themselves in the position of being the minority from time to time, if for no other reason than to consider what it's like to be that - to feel what it is to be the one that "doesn't belong" so we learn empathy for minorities, instead of reacting as you have with fear and distrust of those who are different.

Now that I've had my say there, I wish you wouldn't bring your xenophobia here to spread it to others.

[PSzymeczek]

49. My father's sisters used to do this all the time.

They would speak Pennsylvania German in front of my mother, who did not speak the language. They were Mennonites, and did not learn English until they went to school. The family has been in this country since the early 1700s, and all had been fluent in English since the early 1920s, at least, so I did find this rude.

[PSzymeczek]

63. This was at family functions,

so even if they weren't talking about Mom, it was clearly intended to exclude. My grandmother used to scold them for doing it.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. If they both speak English, then yes, it is quite rude.

It is similar to talking about someone in third person while the person is standing there. There are situations where it may be needed because one of the persons isn't understanding the conversation or is getting instructions, as it is common to use a primary language when giving directives. I say this as someone speaks a number of languages.

I find some of the responses to your OP to be nothing more lazy, knee-jerk stupidity.

[Kurska]

52. Ahh Behind the Aegis, the bastion of sanity as usual.

Good to see you outside of the I/P dungeon.

[Behind the Aegis]

54. I leave there quite often.

I am just not as well known or searched in these forums.

Though not asked, I have had experiences like this, though never in a language I didn't speak, and each time they were talking about my being a "faggot." I have also experienced when someone couldn't understand the conversation and where someone was given instructions, which is why I added those in my intial posts.

[Kurska]

57. Thankyou, I think you've hit the nail right on the head.

I've often had a friend with me who did speak Russian and promptly informed me what was being said was infact insults or something else unsavory.

[msanthrope]

58. Hey, Lou Dobbs!!! Wouldn't you be more comfy in Freeperland?

Russians and Ukranians speak their own language amongst themselves because their languages can be highly idiomatic, and it's difficult to translate into another highly idiomatic language, English. Not to mention that it's tough for a person who grown up speaking Slavonic-type languages to learn a Romance language.

Give them a break.

[Pharlo]

60. This thread puts me in mind of an old Paul Rodriguez joke...

He was talking about the amount of non-hispanic immigrants who were moving into his old neighborhood, and he was saying how he could now sympathize with the whites. He and his friends used to be on an elevator and would talk to each other in Spanish and the white guy in the elevator would be watching them, convinced they were talking about him. As the elevator ride got longer, the white guy would get more paranoid. Paul and his friend would be talking about things happening in school and the neighborhood, but this white guy would be getting antsier and antsier. Eventually, the door would open the white guy would go to get out, look at them and yell, "YOU'RE IN AMERICA NOW! SPEAK ENGLISH!!"

So, P. Rodriguez goes on to tell about how the other day he was in an elevator in his old neighborhood and two Asian immigrants were on the elevator with him, talking in their own language - a language he neither understood nor spoke. And, he KNEW they were talking about him. And, as the elevator ride got longer and longer, he KNEW they were making fun of him - he could just tell. So, when he got off the elevator, he yelled at them - "YOU'RE IN AMERICA NOW!!! SPEAK SPANISH!!!"

[RB TexLa]

65. That is in no way rude. And you have no right to expect anyone to speak a language you want

[Gwendolyn]

66. Usually it's benign and meaningless.

It feels awkward to communicate with someone in a language that belongs to neither of you. I've done it and it feels contrived. Socially of course, it's rude to shut someone out, unless if it's just the odd slippage. When it comes to businesses, like retail stores, really, what does it matter what language they communicate in, as long as you get what you wanted when you walked in. Sometimes you can tell by body language and the fact that after exchanging words they both stare at your nose or your clothes, that you've just been dissed in another language, in which case, yeah, take your business elsewhere. Sometimes people do use other languages to gossip in the open. I do that all the time with my sisters.

[Saphire]

67. Yup, usually benign. I work with Spanish speaking folk who use it all

time. It's just easier for them to communicate with each other. I don't find it rude, but rather boring (I understand more Spanish than they think). If they want to include me, they speak English.

[Ohio Joe]

68. They are probably talking about you

:sarcasm:

[Heidi]

69. Have you entertained the notion that what they were saying was none of your business?

Perhaps the boss was chastising the employee. None of your business.
Perhaps the employee was letting the boss know the till was out of 20s. None of your business.

I suggest, if you genuinely feel you were disrespected and genuinely want to do anything besides gripe about it to a bunch of strangers, that you seek redress with the owner of that business, since you both speak perfect English. :hi:

[Douglas Carpenter]

72. Am I missing something?

I have spent most of my life around people and dealing with businesses that carry on all the time in languages that I don't necessarily understand or understand very well. It has never, ever, ever occurred to me that they are up to no good.

I don't know if it is rude or not. I simply don't care. But when I have something to ask or say quickly or am just shooting the breeze, I spontaneously and without giving it any thought, use English. I assume people who are as comfortable in their own native language as I am with English do the same.