Gates cop asked him to step outside otherwise he couldn't arrest him for disorderly conduct.

[dkf]

Apparently as long as Gates stayed inside the house and yelled at him it was perfectly legal so the creep asked him to step outside so he could manufacture a disorderly conduct charge.

This pisses me off beyond belief. What an ass.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gates-police25-2009jul25,0,7956470.story

Police officers can arrest people in their own homes for accosting police, interfering with an investigation or resisting a lawful arrest. But Gates was not accused of interfering with an investigation.

"I would say it is not constitutional to arrest someone in his home just for being loud and abusive to a police officer," said Boston University law professor Tracey Maclin. "That's why the cop asked him to come outside, where he could be arrested for being disorderly in public."

[EFerrari]

1. Exactly. He lured him outside so he could humiliate him. What a hero.

[Selatius]

2. The cop is an asshole for that. He probably gets some joy out of having power over others.

Some people need to be kept away from power for everybody's sake.

[ixion]

8. from my experience, good cop or bad, they enjoy having control over others

I think that's one of the things that leads them to become cops in the first place.

[troubledamerican]

60. but JIM CROW-ley is highly respected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow

[LAGC]

3. Now that is what you call a "pig" (n/t)

[Eric68601]

4. I acertained the exact same thing the other day

These are my thoughts exactly, I wrote about this just last night.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6137207&mesg_id=6137433

If you read the incident report, the cop even says it himself that several times he tried to get Gates to step outside.

[EFerrari]

5. Welcome to DU, Eric.

Yeah, at the whin-a-thon today, the union guys say they want the tape released to show Gates was out of control. If the tape is clear, then it will prove Crowley was lying his ass off about the acoustics, won't it?

[Uben]

6. Remember this....

If you are pulled over in your car and the officer asks you to step out of the vehicle, always lock your doors before you do. If they ask you why you locked the doors, just tell them it's a habit. They cannot search your vehicle without a warrant then. If you leave it unlocked, they will. Just a bit of info on your rights.

[ejpoeta]

22. now see, that is something I would never think of. but then, I have never worried about

cops wanting to search my car and such. I don't blame anyone who is a minority for feeling like they need to be cautious at all times. It seems that they are targeted and not always for good reason. It's sad, really, that anyone has to worry about being treated poorly when they haven't done anything to warrant it.

[rocktivity]

7. Gates did the opposite of interfere with an investigation

By successfully identifying himself and proving it that he lived there, he ENDED it. If Sgt. Jim Crow-ley asked him to step outside AFTERWARDS, then Gates REALLY has him dead to rights. No wonder Obama is standing by his contention that Crowley overreacted.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[RC]

10. I'm seeing all the judges and juries around here claiming the cop was within the law

are maybe biased and/or not seeing the facts for what they actually were. From what I have seen and heard, cops can be sneaky reality spinners.

[TexasObserver]

14. The cop was within the law, but so was the professor.

The cop employed a tactic cops sometimes use to trick people into relinquishing some right the person has. Examples:

*They ask you if they can come in. Once in, they can arrest you for anything they can see in plain sight. They could not have done so, but you let them in.

*They ask you if they can search your car. You consent. They find something illegal. They could not have legally done so, but you consented, so the drugs or whatever are allowed into evidence.

*They ask you to step outside of your house. You do so. Now they can arrest you for disorderly conduct for arguing with them.


Understand that cops have wide latitude in what they can do. They can lie to you. They can misrepresent facts entirely. They can trick you. As long as you do not consent to searches, to leaving your home, or to letting the police come into your home, you have an ability to later assert your 4th amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure. When you consent, you give that up.

[Karenina]

19. You might enjoy this piece:

http://www.theroot.com/views/please-professor-gates

Although Gates’ experience has been described as racial profiling, the problem of race and the criminal justice system is more complex. It includes police brutality (including the increasing and sometimes deadly use of Tasers), disparate sentencing, poor prison conditions, harsh and often racially disparate sentencing, and a range of barriers to the reintegration of ex-offenders. Any one of these issues would benefit from a thoughtful PBS special, especially one with the scholarly imprimatur of a Gates production.

[TexasObserver]

26. Thank you! That will be an awesome show.

There has been a systematic trampling of citizens' rights in this country since Reagan took office. The notion that if the courts, and lawyers, and legislators, and pointy headed liberals would just get out of the way of police, they'd be able to catch the bad guys and save us all from them. The GOP has controlled the federal judiciary for over 20 years now, and they have destroyed the 4th amendment and its protections.

They have given us (1) you must carry papers and you must identify yourself to any law officer, as in the days when vagrancy laws were still in effect, (2) you can be searched by a dog handler with a dog, even though the officer is the sole judge of when the dog alerts, (3) you can be searched incident to any arrest or taking into custody, (4) your car can be searched incident to any arrest where you're in your car, (5) your blood can be taken, your DNA can be taken, and you can be made to submit to any kind of physical examination they can dream up, (6) you have no rights when you enter an airport, and the list goes on and on.

Our country's rights peaked under Jimmy Carter, and we've been losing ground ever since.

[glitch]

33. This reminds me of vampires having to be asked inside. Surreal. nt

[TexasObserver]

34. Yes, and I almost used that as an example!!

Don't invite them in!!

[Inchworm]

15. That's the problem

The law is in kahoots with the cops. Police officers report, and it is taken as gospel in front of a judge or jury.

Just my opinion of course.

[TexasObserver]

28. Yes. Unfortunately, many jurors are very naive about police.

And the prosecutor culls anyone in the jury pool who shows the least understanding of the way police rig their reports to support whatever it is they're trying to say is fact. Often, pro prosecution judges also do their part, by helping the prosecutor get away with striking from the jury pool for cause otherwise good defense jurors.

For example, some judges let prosecutors strike black jury pool members when there is a black defendant, even though there is Supreme Court case law ruling that's not legal. These judges know that once a man is convicted, a whole set of presumptions in favor of that conviction come into play.

Police are taught to fill in the gaps in their cases by writing reports with complete fabrications in them.

[JonLP24]

30. That can be appealed

May not happen. I recall a case where a woman was convicted of killing her husband(both black) and she got her case appealed and was retried. The reason why she won her appeal is because the prosecutor excluded anyone who is a black woman.

Anyways she was found Not Guilty in her second trial. I can't find a link because I forgot her name and the keywords I'm using is not bringing it up. I did watch much of the trial on TruTV several months back and mind you only the 2nd one in which she was not guilty and I was convinced myself that she was.

Sorry to distract that issue but the state in question was Mississippi(I believe? But certainly a state in the 'south') and she was able to appeal a improper tactic to exclude black women for serving as jurors. But you make great points all around and the scary thing is most counties in the US is pro prosecution and creates that environment of judges who are pro prosecution as well.

On edit/ I wanted to make sure to add that she was able to appeal and win her 2nd trial doesn't mean everyone in similar situations won an appeal and was even afforded a 2nd opportunity.

[TexasObserver]

31. Yes it can be appealed. I mentioned the Supreme Court ruling.

But winning an appeal is much tougher than you might imagine. EVERYTHING in the process favors sustaining the trial court's actions. Proving error isn't the same thing as experiencing it.

The Supreme Court case is Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79 (1986), and it's called making a Batson Challenge when one attacks the racial composition of a jury.

There are two types of jury strikes. The peremptory challenge allows either side's attorney to strike a certain number of jurors from the jury pool without showing any cause. Many prosecutors developed the practice of using theirs to exclude any black members of the jury pool they could not get stricken by a challenge for cause.

The challenge for cause is the second type of jury strike. It requires the agreement of the judge, and the judge can favor one side or the other in that process. Suppose the jury pool has many blacks in it and the case is against a black defendant. The prosecutor can ask questions about family members who have been convicted of crimes, and whether that might cause such a prospective juror to be biased agains the prosecution. By eliciting answers to such questions, a prosecutor can move to strike a juror for cause, and a judge who likes to help the prosecution can facilitate that process.

The Batson challenge has utility, but please understand that most judicial error is never reversed on appeal, and winning cases on appeal is not easy, no matter the facts. It's costly, it's time consuming, and most end up denied.

[JonLP24]

39. That is why I clearly stated twice

That many others IS not that lucky but when a case of prosecutorial misconduct can be proven it must and should be appealed.

I wish my post didn't come across as saying it's easy as I'm very well aware of how time consuming and most of them are upheld anyways. My point, which I'm very bad at making and I end up rambling, is that it is that is misconduct almost anywhere in the US and I meant to point out misconduct happens all the time and many people aren't eventually exonerated is all. I'm very sorry for coming across with that impression that one can simply appeal and a second trial is risky as well even if you're innocent and got that second chance off the appeal. I was just trying to say that is bullshit and used an example of how it isn't tolerated but I wasn't trying to say it's easy to simply win your appeal and found not guilty when jury selection isn't based on race. Again I apologize for coming across the wrong way.

[TexasObserver]

41. We're in basic agreement.

Sometimes on topics such as this one, I use a post as an opportunity to convey some useful information about how legal proceedings actually take place. You alluded to a Batson Challenge, and I felt it a good time to talk about it in greater detail. Now, posters reading this subthread will know what a Batson Challenge is, and what case it is based upon.

[JonLP24]

42. Thank god

I'd hate to be flamed by someone on this forum that I agree with. It's early here on the west coast so I'm probably overreacting. Sorry to take away what is an informative post by clarifying myself but I haven't heard of a Batson challenge before and thank you for that information. The only thing I knew before was appeals are hard and are almost always upheld and the case which I still haven't found a link for was there was this woman who won her appeal on what they called prosecutorial misconduct for excluding black women from serving on her first trial. :hi:

[Statistical]

54. Within the law & the right thing are often not the same.

The courts have routinely ruled that Police can use trickery to aid in an arrest.

So the cop was within the limits of the law.

A good cop however knows when strict application of the law is a miscarriage of justice.
Since Gates was in his home, and no threat to anyone a good cop would have left a card and drove away.

However under the law and based on the fact the cop made an arrest that met the technical requirements of the charge.

[L. Coyote]

9. Evidently, this police officer acted "stupidly"

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

66. But now the President thinks he's an outstanding officer.

[ejpoeta]

11. is there any sort of history regarding neighbors calling about an intruder and the intruder being

the owner where the person was either arrested or not?? I would be curious to see how other such cases were handled and whether the owner was black or white.

[stray cat]

12. I think it was a passerby who called police

[ejpoeta]

20. i mean the police response to them.... when the 'breaker in' is the owner.

I myself have locked myself out of the house and had to find a way in. But I never had anyone call the cops on me. But I am white too, and I live in a rural area where frankly no one would see anything. Around here I would think that if the cops were called, once the residency of the questionable person was shown, the cops would be on their way. but again, I have never had such an experience, and so I am not sure. I am just curious about the police reaction in other instances where an owner had locked themself out and the police were called a bout a suspicious person in that particular area and with those cops.

[rzemanfl]

27. I once climbed through the bedroom window of a friend's house

(because he was too big to fit through it) and was locked out. He lived in the country and was a cop so there was no risk of getting arrested.

[stray cat]

13. Would it be different if the occupant was a skin head calling a black officer racial slurs

It sounds like most of DU would also be against arresting a white freeper skin head harassing a black police officer as well. Right? Any occupant in a house can say whatever they want to an officer because they are in their house. It seems right - so I guess as much as I would hate it a skin head verbally abusing a black officer or a gay officer is protected as well.

[geckosfeet]

17. He asked for badge number and name. How is that harrassing?

[Warren Stupidity]

38. he was uppity set

[TexasObserver]

18. No. It wouldn't be any different.

Let's address your case. Assuming arguendo that a skinhead is in his own home, and a black cop comes to his door, when he comes to the door, he is entitled to the same rights as professor Gates.

Of course, the facts you have posed are very different from the facts of the case of Mr. Gates, but the principle remains constant. No, cops can't barge into homes without a warrant or exigent circumstances, and No, cops can't arrest people for saying things the cop doesn't like.

Well, they can, and do, but it's not right. It's not a proper use of police power. It's an abuse of the power.

[Fumesucker]

21. As long as the skinhead is within his own home and not threatening violence..

And does not disobey a lawful order of the officer (show ID in this particular case) then yes, he would be within his rights to say what he pleased to the officer without being arrested.

[HughMoran]

25. Happens all the time

You see examples of this on Law and Order (not that this is always a realistic show, but do generally follow acceptible procedure). They almost always walk away as they are required to do. When they don't, they face suspension. I've been in real-life examples where the cops acted badly, but that doesn't make it right.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. No. That would remain protected free speech.

nice try though

[noiretextatique]

47. verbal abuse is not a crime

if it was a black officer who arrested a skinhead for askin for his badge numger i would support the skinhead.

[LisaL]

63. Oh something tells me most of DU would be cheering and

clapping if that skinhead got arrested.

[geckosfeet]

16. Of course. He was playing a cat and mouse game when he should have walked away.

[HughMoran]

23. Yes, it's been obvious all along that this cop lost control of his senses

I don't see how he can be a cop any more since now anybody who has a run-in with him knows his weakness.

[nradisic]

24. This cop messed with the wrong guy...

Good Cop? Bad Cop? It does not matter. The officer in this instance just picked the wrong fucking guy to abuse. He might be a decorated officer, but it sounds to me like he overstepped and now he is paying for it. One little mistake can mess up your career and life...Good luck dude.

[tj2001]

29. Nah. Crowley didn't like the "acoustics of the kitchen" of the feeble man on a cane

Outstanding police officer, my ass.

[marshall]

32. You'd think Gates would know the law

It just shows that anybody can be duped when they are distracted.

[Are_grits_groceries]

35. He used an old ploy.

Gates kept asking him for his name and badge number which is a reasonable request. The cop ignored him, and pretended he didn't hear what was said. Gates stepped out of the house to get the info and was arrested.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. No shit. That is the part of the narrative of events that betrays

Crowley and makes clear what happened that night.

[seabeyond]

43. absolutely. was clear reading that what the cop did. at that point we knew the man wasnt

playing this straight. so that means, everything in his report is subject.

you knew at that point the cop had already decided to arrest the man. it is so clear and obvious, every police knows when they read that what the cop was doing. on du cops on this board that try to weasel thru a story for a cop, clearly know what this cop was doing.

from the cops report alone i see three things that make this situation his fault.

[seaglass]

49. It's Gates narrative. You of course have every right to choose

who you believe is telling the truth, it doesn't mean it is the truth.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Nobody is disputing this part.

But go ahead and be completely naive about why Crowley exited the house, why he wanted Gates outside, and why extra police were called in to witness the 'disorderly conduct'.

Gates was arrested as soon as he stepped outside and asked for id. You, if you are going to refute the suggested reasons here, need to explain why Gates wasn't arrested inside the house, and why Crowley remained outside after exiting the house suggesting that Gates also come outside.

[seabeyond]

56. read the police report. cops version. the dumbshit lays it out clearly and obviously what he was

doing. the cop three places in his version shows where he did wrong. his words and STILL there are three places clearly says, wasnt being a cop here.

all cops version without taking a single consideration of gates perspective.

that is pretty damn telling when reading just one side and you can see it is cops doing

[seaglass]

59. There are some words missing in your response, I'm not sure if it is some sort of shorthand

or if english is not your first language. My apologies but I do not understand what you are saying.

[seabeyond]

61. simply, from crowleys account only, the police report, it shows 3 places where he did wrong

even if we do not listen to gates at all, the police report shows crowley did not do his job

[seaglass]

62. Can you point them out?

I'm not stating that I believe Crowley's report to be the unvarnished truth.

[seabeyond]

70. he says he knew at that point gates belonged in the home but he called harvard police for

verification.

if he knew gates belong in house he did not need verification. he needed to thank him and leave. but he didnt. he had harvard cops come, escalating situation and agitating gates further.

2. he was asked his name and id number. started giving it but was yelled down.

by law he has to give id number and name. yelled down, he is a trained professional to expect the anger and he could have easily waited a sec and politely, nicely given ihs name and id number, thanked gates for time and left.

3. he lead gates out of house with intent to arrest

[seaglass]

71. According to the police report - which has not been confirmed as the truth -

1.) it doesn't say why he called Harvard U police
2.) he repeatedly provided his name at least, the report says nothing about providing his badge number. You are guessing whether Gates was going to stop yelling - you weren't there
3.) again you are guessing Crowley's intent

[seabeyond]

72. it says in police report called harvard police to verify. says i started to give my name and gates

yelled....

and it does say in the report gates was asking for name and id number. cop told him to come outside to get info

[seaglass]

73. Is there more than one version of the police report?

"Upon learning that Gates was affiliated with Harvard I radioed and requested the presence of Harvard University Police."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates2.html

Doesn't say anything about WHY.

I was actually stating that Crowley said he provided his name but never stated that he provided his badge number.

[seabeyond]

74. i am thinking there is.... what i read three days ago

is not what i read this morning. i went out searching for it. so i am backing off on all this until i see what is up. just didnt have time to do more googlin.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

68. Then why does the President think he's an outstanding officer?

[Lars39]

40. That is the whole reason for calling the campus security, imo....

to have bona fide witnesses on the spot for the arrest. He'd already seen his IDs, knew it was his house.

[seabeyond]

44. also, even though he KNEW gates belonged in that house per his statement, it aLSO

allowed more time to hassle and agitate gates. can you imagine. already in a pissy mood, give them info and know cop knows he belongs yet cop then goes to "verify"

[Lars39]

45. Yep, he kept winding him up until he was sure the others were outside.

[seabeyond]

51. what bothers me with protect cop at all times, is we can see this. clearly as can be. there is a

problem in this behavior. it is an abuse. it is like a liar. you catch someone in a lie, you know they lied and they say "no i didnt" yes you did, "no i didnt" yes you did.....

and like cause you quit saying yes you did the person thinks they got away with

well

these cops dont get away with and then it festers in us citizens and we respect them less. i would have tons more respect for the cops and those that defend that say... ya, he did this. right or wrong of it, he did do this... but instead they say "no he didnt"

doesnt mean we believe, just means the anger and disrespect grows and then they insist we should respect, feel obligated, appreciate... and it isnt there. they act confused. like they dont get it

[fishwax]

46. He also asked (or demanded) that Gates step outside at the very beginning of the interview

And had Gates complied with that demand, he could have been immediately arrested on suspicion of burglary. That seems to me to be another important fact that is being overlooked, particularly by those who claim that Gates simply should have been more cooperative with a sweetness and light cop who was just doing his job.

[noiretextatique]

48. cower and defer

is more accurate. it's (almost) like the way black people had to act under jim crow to avoid lynching. curious indeed.

[WillieW]

53. Saying that the acustics was not sufficient in the house to have a conversation was crap.

[WillieW]

52. The police frequently abuse the law by speeding not being in pursuit of anyone.

Apparenty think that they are above the law.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

67. Is that the only reason for an officer to speed?

[WillieW]

75. Give me another one. One cop in the car on a highway w/o sirens.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. Responding to a report of a crime.

Responding to some calls without lights and sirens is prudent. Due regard for safety must be considered but going 10 mph over the speed limit is within those bounds.

[mmonk]

55. A policeman did the same to me but when I went outside,

I didn't take the bait (and I'm a caucasian male). There are officers out there that feel their oats, so to speak. Do not attack me by saying I'm painting good police officers and servants with a broaf brush because I am not. I'm just giving an account of an experience I lived through.

[WillieW]

57. Caucasian Male?

[mmonk]

58. Yes.

Whether you mean me or the officer.

[followthemoney]

64. This is what the cops must learn how to do...

In their race relations class taught by Crowley.

No Sarcasm Here.

[EFerrari]

65. No kidding. This guy was the TEACHER.

:puke:

[Life Long Dem]

69. But still he wouldn't have been able to do this unless he was in the house.

Which seems to be an illegal search by the cop.

[WillieW]

76. Correct!

[Life Long Dem]

79. That's going by the law.

Otherwise I can't say what happened.

[Gothmog]

78. The Arrest was illegal anyway

The First Amendment protected Prof. Gates speech. See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6137980 Even if Prof Gates was on the street yelling at the officers, his speech was protected by the First Amendment