There is no "teachable moment" if no one will listen

[TayTay]

Nothing will ever advance or change if the parties involved don't get off their high horses and talk to each other. This threatening and dangerous "conversation" involves acknowledging the possibility that one's own opinion might be wrong or faulty or incomplete or capable of change. It also involves the possibility for respecting the opinion and good faith of others. Apparently, this is the most difficult thing to do on this earth, have a little respect for others before the hate names are flung around at will.

The alleged "discussion" of this issue on DU this past week was less than stellar. Liberals courageously complimented each other on their courageous stands in agreeing with other liberals on liberal boards on liberal stands. Wow! With courageous action like that, I bet no one's mind was even challenged, never mind changed.

It has been said that liberals want to be right more than they want to change anything. Too bad. We need change in this country and that is not a one-sided conversation based on demonizing other people and calling them names. It involves hard work, diplomacy, respect for others and the need for real conversation in which sides have at least a tiny bit of respect for each other. It means retaining enough restraint in commentary to recognize that the person across from you is not an enemy, but a human being who deserves a chance to have his/her say.

Otherwise, what is the point?

I am so proud of my President today. He backed off from the brink, acknowledged the fundamental good-faith in others, recognized that genuine talk involves listening to the grievances of others and didn't take it as a slur on his being when someone expressed a different opinion. Thank God we have someone of that caliber, intelligence, grace and compassion in office right now. I wish we had more of it in our discussions on the various liberal chat boards.

[timeforpeace]

1. What exactly was the teachable moment in all this?

[Fumesucker]

2. Liberals could have learned that cops are always in the right..

No matter how egregious their behavior may seem to "civilians", they always have perfectly valid and understandable reasons for everything they do.

And yes, it's :sarcasm:

[TayTay]

5. Cops most certainly are not always in the right.

And discrimination suits in Massachusetts that have challenged racial profiling have gone through the court system and resulted in changes in many departments.

There will be no change though if there is no discussion here. Professor Gates has the right to a redress of grievances. How is he to get that if there is no one there to listen?

[Fumesucker]

7. The other side will not listen either..

You put all the onus on "liberals" to do the listening and learning, go back and look at your OP.

Edited to add: Respect is a two way street, it's quite clear that we can give the other side all the respect in the world and it will not be reciprocated.

You have to stand up for what you believe or you will be steamrollered by those who believe differently, particularly so in America these days.

[TayTay]

10. Because this is a liberal board and we don't have many others here

We have a few folks who stated that maybe the cop in this case was not the devil incarnate. There are a whole lot of people on talk radio who are saying far, far worse. That is ugly speech that separates people who need to sit down and have a discussion.

I pointed this out BECAUSE this is a liberal board. (I don't post on conservative boards, but I have plenty of conversations with people who are conservative and who have been talking about this case this week. They have hate speech too and jump to ugly conclusions and use the arguments of the other side to say that talking is useless. And I don't want to be them. I don't want to use those tactics or go down those roads.)

Didn't our own President come up with a path through this that acknowledged the depth of feeling on both sides, admitted some less than well-chosen words on his part and the deep desire to get beyond that? That is the way to go, not digging deeper into our bunkers and believing that "we are right" so we don't have to talk anymore.

[Fumesucker]

12. That's funny, I've seen a great deal of argumentation on this board about this event..

If the posters here were so unanimous in their opinion there would be little argument, instead there has been a flamefest the likes of which I haven't seen since MJ kicked the bucket.

I'm perfectly willing to talk and to listen, that doesn't mean I'm automatically going to admit the other side is correct and I'm incorrect.

[TayTay]

18. No should you

But is that all this is an "I'm right, you're wrong" moment? (Starting from either side?)

I don't see any problem with forming an argument or presenting a strong case, deeply enhanced by personal feeling and the desire to right a perceived wrong. Our system is founded on that.

But the automatic assumption of bad faith of the other side precludes that argument from being heard. No one reacts well to being told they are awful people who are obviously, totally, completely, "any fool could see it" wrong. They want to air their side as well.

Present a strong case. Progress would not happen without people who feel strongly about an issue and seek redress. But can't we do so civilly and demonstrate the respect that we are, in essence, asking for?

[Fumesucker]

20. Bad faith was shown by officer Crowley when he deliberately lured Gates outside..

In order that he could arrest Gates on what was fairly obviously a trumped up charge.

Gates did nothing illegal within his house, by the time Crowley lured Gates onto the porch Gates had already presented his ID, that should have been the end of the encounter.

We may be asking for respect but we aren't getting it, respect has to be earned and when one side of the argument is putting forth bogus points they don't deserve respect.

The USA has the highest incarceration rate on the planet, if that is not a sign of a police force out of control I can't imagine what is.

[TayTay]

21. I was not there

I understand the actions in question are under dispute.

So, how do you propose we get some resolution and a redress of grievances for Professor Gates? If the Cambridge police have wronged him then the Professor deserves a chance to say that and, as a citizen, deserves to know if the offending behavior will be reprimanded or changed.

Exactly what should come out of this?

[Fumesucker]

26. Hopefully it will go to trial..

And the facts will indeed come out..

That really is the only way this is going to be settled and even then there are going to be a huge number of people who won't accept any verdict.

[TayTay]

28. There always are

But their numbers dwindle and their case loses traction because they have no facts to back them up.

People of good faith should not be afraid to air their sides. But we need a place where those sides can be heard and reasonable people can see the merits of the arguments. That is how progress is made.

[Fumesucker]

32. I'm being a bit flippant here...

But have you been on some other planet for the last eight or nine years?

Not having facts to back their opinions up really doesn't slow down a great many people... At all.

You might recall bushie searching under his desk for the Weapons of Mass Destruction?

[TayTay]

35. And you might recall they lost

That is why Mr. Obama is now President.

Why did the Republicans lose the national argument on Terry Schiavo?

[Fumesucker]

39. Eh, I didn't think we'd see another Repub POTUS for a generation after Nixon..

I'm not making that mistake again.

These fuckers are like monsters in a flick, they _always_ come back after you think you've driven a stake through their heart.

And it's the Dems who will let them do it, I fear.

[TayTay]

41. I fear it too.

That is why we fight.

That is why good people who understand that the fight never stops are so valuable.

It is possible to be heard and it is possible to affect change. It can be done. Sadly, it is far from easy and the battle is exhausting. If I knew of an alternative to constant vigilance, I would use it and let others know. Sigh! I know of no such short-cut. So, things are slugged out every day, as they happen, with the tools and people and knowledge we have.

We don't get to give up. If we do, they win.

[YvonneCa]

56. And what would be the lesson...

...then? Two good men, of good intent, who maybe both overreacted cannot calm down enough to solve their own problems without a 'Judge Judy' to referee? Not to mention the cost to themselves and taxpayers? Or to the country because of the media circus?

Maybe a better lesson to learn is how...thanks to the leadership of our President...Two good men, of good intent, who maybe both overreacted control their anger (self-control), listen to one another, solve their conflict, and use the lessons learned to teach the country at large about the issue.

Have you ever heard of the Tariq-Khamisa organization? The names come from two fathers whose sons had a conflict...one son killed the other while robbing during a pizza delivery. The fathers became friends, established a foundation to fight teenage violence...for both their sons.

[EFerrari]

66. Those actions are not in dispute. This bad arrest was thrown out

and the mayor has apologized to Dr. Gates.

There is very little ambiguity left in this incident.

[Chulanowa]

23. The sad fact is, both sides aren't equal

Oftentimes, one side is simply wrong. The "listen to both sides! Both are equally valuable!" is a media trick to make themselves look unbiased, by presenting both ffact and fiction and claiming that it's "balanced coverage"

[TayTay]

31. That is indeed true

but it also tends to prove the point.

Take the "birthers" argument that got some recent exposure on TV. The birthers are doomed to failure because they cannot agree on any single common fact that a reasonable and neutral audience would agree is true.

The birthers argue that a certificate of live birth is not a birth certificate in the case of numerous public officials who have publicly proclaimed that it is, in fact, a birth certificate. Nothing will change the mind of the birthers and the single act of trying is incorporated into a conspiracy theory.

They are NOT acting in good faith. Good faith dictates that reasonable arguments, submitted to the court of public opinion can be judged and can sometimes be held unsustainable. Both sides in the Cambridge case have stated that they wish to submit their sides. The assumption is that these offers are made in good faith with the understanding that one side may suffer and be judged in the wrong. That side is expected to accept that judgment.

Birthers, holocaust deniers and so forth never give up their side, even when it is unqualified and based on untruths. They are not acting in good faith or with the assumption of being reasonably heard.

I hope that is not the case here. I do think both sides should be heard in this instance. That does not mean both sides will emerge from the conflict with their central arguments essentially unchanged or unchallenged.

[omega minimo]

83. The "sides" are not black and white here, either

I think I linked my OP on this down below. There have been some cautious heads -- maybe not prevailing -- on DU, but they have been vocal.

Tangerine La Bamba made excellent comments Friday from a legal standpoint. Many of us know what we don't know -- which is what really happened.

At the center of this -- and if it's a teachable moment -- is racial profiling. I'm glad Obama brought it up. That may be lost in his apology for using the word "stupidly."

Racial profiling is not commonly understood, even by police departments that order studies of their own behaviors. AFAIK much of it is ingrained and subconscious, not necessarily overtly racist or conscious as many seem to think.

If I imagine the scene as described, I'll bet the homeowner was well aware of that from the get go. The homeowner may have been pissed off knowing that he was being profiled in his own Harvard living room, where he educates people and knows quite well how profiling occurs.

I'd be pissed too. How frustrating IF that was what was going on there. The audacity of the officer to assume anything and alter his behavior based on race and then refuse to identify himself.

We don't know exactly what occurred.

Racial profiling would make a good "teachable moment."

[YvonneCa]

57. I would never say that. What I am talking about is...

...the 'sides' listening to each other, and REALLY hearing each other. Sometimes this leads to common ground and a solution.

NO ONE should believe the 'fair and balanced' thing. :7

[karynnj]

16. The answer to their not listening is not to emulate their behavior

in the opposite direction.

It is reasonable to speak of racial profiling still being a fact - it is. What you are ignoring is that, though the policeman should have been able to resolve this without arresting him, he responded pretty moderately after he was placed at the center of the storm following the President's comments - which did go further than his knowledge of the situation. I can't imagine the horror of a police officer, who taught others about how to avoid racial profiling, hearing the President's comments which do not accuse him or racial profiling, but certainly suggest it as a possibility.

These are real people. Gates does not deserve the comments from the right and there is no proof Crowley deserves the worst of what was said on DU - even if he didn't vote for Obama. The media which made this the lead story for two days was also pretty poor.

[Fumesucker]

27. Crowley's arrest of Gates was not justified..

It's clear from Crowley's own police report that Gates showed his ID, that should have been the end of the matter.

This may well be more about class than race..

For the record, I'm a white male Southerner and I'm older than Gates.

[TayTay]

34. We should have an airing of grievances so that comes out

and Professor Gates, who is a very reasonable man who has the right to be heard in this, makes that case.

It would inform the public arena and add to understanding on and around this case. That is the President's point as well, let the Professor and Sgt. Crowley state their case and try and resolve their differences. Not beat each other to death in an effort to find a single victor who can claim the mantle of absolute truth, but resolve real differences so that these things don't happen again.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Tis the key here.

[karynnj]

44. I never said it was

I wrote,
"policeman should have been able to resolve this without arresting him" - that is the opposite of saying it was justified. As to class, I think college professor ranks at least as high as police officer.

[Fumesucker]

52. That was my point about class..

I suspect that Crowley acted as he did because it was a chance to humiliate someone he perceived as being higher class than he.

Sorry if I misread what you wrote, the grandkids were bugging me to take them swimming and I was distracted.

[EFerrari]

47. I think you're making a fundamental mistake in communication strategy

by suggesting that a good faith discussion can be held with authoritarians, not matter how well intentioned that suggestion is.

Talking to authoritarians is not like having a heart to heart with a friend or even with a stranger who simply disagrees with you. If the rules are that we all sit down and listen to each other, the authoritarian expects you to do all the listening, agreeing and conceding -- because he is right not only about the topic but in general and as a matter of the course of nature.

You point to Obama's gesture and, you're right, it was a gracious one. But he knows that his first statement, in which he did take Crowley down a peg, cannot be unsaid. It is there on the record no matter how much he later qualifies it. That puts that beer sharing in a different context than if Obama had said nothing initially. The three men might meet for a photo op and that might be a good thing, but one of them will have to work a little harder at the conversation.

Because Obama knows that authoritarians respond to power, not to appeals to their reasoning faculties or even to their humanity. They are a little like the schoolyard bully that can only respect another kid after said kid has beaten him up.

That's why Douglass said "power concedes nothing with a demand" instead of "power concedes nothing without a nice long talk".

Civil rights, because at bottom that is the issue here, are not negotiated with authoritarians or with their apologists. They are asserted. And if you think about it, that's why authoritarians do their best to silence their opponents. Because in order to make a demand, you have to raise your voice.

[omega minimo]

86. !

:wow: :applause: :think:

[EFerrari]

88. Do you think that's right? I think it probably is.

It was hard to respond to this OP because TayTay is describing good faith communication over ugliness -- something most of us would prefer, right?

I just don't think it works that way with the actual parties involved.

[omega minimo]

90. The OP and thread is great, brought out the best of DU and your post is BRILLIANT

:toast: and I lifted your point elsewhere......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6148067&mesg_id=6149804

[TayTay]

4. President Obama referred to it yesterday

It means a chance for Professor Gates' side of the story to be fully told. It means he gets a chance to describe what he felt, why he reacted the way he did and why he was upset. It means that the Professor deserves some respect and a chance to fully air his grievances. Professor Gates is a world-renowed scholar and an expert in African-American history. He most certainly should be given a full chance to tell his side of the story.

Sgt. Crowley has no history of brutality or discrimination. By all accounts, he is an excellent police officer who has no history of jumping to conclusions and arresting people for emotional reasons. This decorated officer voluntary, without additional pay, teaches a course on how to avoid racial profiling. He is a well respected member of the Cambridge police and of his community. He also deserves some respect and a chance to air his side of the story.

I think something worthwhile might come from sitting these two folks down together on neutral ground and having them discuss what happened without name-calling. We all just might learn something.

That is a "teachable moment". It would benefit these two gentlemen and the communities they live in and the nation.

[Fumesucker]

6. Crowley deliberately lured Gates onto his porch specifically so he could arrest Gates..

Crowley had far more power on the porch than inside Gates home.

I've had both extremes of dealing with police, seeing them go far above and beyond their duty and also seeing some extremely power hungry, belligerent and completely uncalled for behavior, both examples in the very same department.

My opinion is that Crowley engaged in the latter behavior rather than the former.

I want to hear the recordings of Crowley's transmissions on his police radio, I won't believe a thing Crowley says until those recordings are released.

Not to say I completely buy what Gates says either but of the two, Crowley was the one charged with acting in a professional manner during the encounter.

[TayTay]

14. Did you file a complaint?

Did you file a complaint or help any injured parties file a complaint against cops who don't do their jobs properly?

There are citizen review boards who exist because of activist compromises with the police governing boards. Such citizen boards exist because police officers can be insular and wary of criticism from outside sources.

Did anyone write to the mayor/city council of the cities/towns involved? Letters to the newspaper? Appearances at local oversight meetings. Call neighborhood meetings to get consensus that the behavior of some cops is harming people and community relations?

We can't get rid of bad behavior and, ultimately, bad police officers if we don't do something about it. Preferably something with some real bite to it.

Professor Gates has spent a lifetime doing just that. He has documented abuse. He has organized people to take action to better their lives and stand up for themselves. I bet he will do so now and be a strong advocate for his side of this story. I bet the Cambridge police, which have a strong history of diversity recruitment, want to hear this in a neutral environment that doesn't presuppose that they are evil villains.

Hey, the Cambridge cops might learn something and change their behavior accordingly. Imagine that. Real change because someone listened and took a cause seriously.

[Fumesucker]

22. I couldn't afford to move out of the county at the time..

I wasn't going to open my family to retribution by the police, the behavior of the officers involved was egregious enough that it was clear there was little to no oversight of the department, staying in the county would have been a major hazard to us, as the lawyers we consulted on the issue told us in no uncertain terms.

Strangely enough, my daughter (who was the subject of the original charges) ended up marrying the son of a high ranking official in the department some years after the incident, it took him several months and a lot of effort to get the incident in question expunged from her record and even then it turned up several years later when she tried to get a concealed carry permit that someone had put a totally bogus drug charge on her record and her father in law had to pull strings yet again.

Small town America is all about local politics, you try to fight city hall or the police department and you will be made to pay, one way or another.

[TayTay]

42. My sympathies for you and your daughter

and I am sorry that there were not others who could assist you in this. The loneliness in having to fight injustice by yourself is often too big a burden to bear.

I think it is remarkable that some people still can fight, even after all they have been through. I commend you for that. I know other who have just given up.

Hopefully, we can meet someday on common ground and help each other. That is how progress is made.

[Fumesucker]

49. I don't think we are that far apart..

And thanks for your good wishes..

The thing is, I've been arguing politics and that kind of thing online long enough to know that changing another poster's mind in a significant way is a rare thing, not totally unheard of but quite rare. In twenty years I could easily count the number of times I have done so on my digits, and I have tens of thousands of posts under my belt now, all the way back to the usenet political forums and even local BBS's before that.

[dogtag]

8. I'm sorry

there aren't more posters around who are as cool, calm, collected and fair as you.

[TayTay]

15. Maybe we should pause a moment and think before we post

and accuse good people of bad faith actions.

What is the point of posting online if the chat only functions as a mirror to reflect our own opinions back to ourselves?

Isn't that one of the things we find most maddening about the RW, the fact that they robotically repeat all the talking points.

There are incredibly intelligent, creative, caring advocates on this board. They have spent time working in their communities on issues like community relations between cops and communities of color. Anyone here had an opinion changed or a cop say they might have been wrong because someone called them a "racist"? Exactly what advancement did that achieve? Who did that help? What single life or situation got better because of that? I do know people who did the hard work of getting meetings together, letting people air their grievances and getting a process together where agreements were made and things got better.

Yeah, we still have problems and cops sometimes over react or just plain act badly. So, how should we make that situation better? Give up, call each other names and retreat to our corners to lick our wounds?

[YvonneCa]

59. I often see posters reflect different ideas about 'who' is being taught...

...during this 'teachable moment.' I think you have it exactly right. There is a lesson for the participants...all three of them. But IMHO, the most important lesson is for the nation...what the American people learn from this incident.

[omega minimo]

85. "Two gentleman" sit down "on neutral ground" to discuss the previous meeting

between the White Authoritarian and the Black Detainee.


EFerrarri is right.

[YvonneCa]

54. It ain't over...

...yet. :7

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evergreen Emerald]

3. Amen.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

9. The responses here prove your point -

See, the folks already know what happened, even though much has not yet been made public.

They know, because they read it somewhere or saw something on TV.

No matter that there are other versions, other interpretations. They have decided, because they know.

Others - and they are routinely shouted down here - have advocated keeping an open mind until all the facts are in.

The response has been less than stellar, yes, to use your own words.

Until people can accept the reality - that no one yet knows what happened, it's best to wait and watch and then see what happens.

Interesting that the actors in this drama are willing to sit down and talk it over, but the spectators know only their own versions, the movies they see in their minds, and anyone who doesn't see it their way is a freeper, a troll, a rightwingnut, a conservative, you name it.

The intolerance displayed here has been appalling.........................................

[karynnj]

13. True - and some are reacting to being called out by unrecommending

a post that is asking for more civil reactions. I was happy to at least get it back to zero by recommending.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. I never even thought of that!

Imagine - unrecommending free speech.

Proving my point.

Thanks for the heads-up.

K&R.......................

[Fumesucker]

24. Where have I been uncivil?

I'm making my case in as civil a manner as I know how..

[karynnj]

25. I did not say you, or anyone was being uncivil, though there were uncivil posts in the lasttwo days

I was commenting that some were unrecommending a post asking for civility.

The op was at <0 when I recommended it, changing it to 1. I have no idea who did this - it is secret, I think.

[Fumesucker]

30. This is a very emotional subject for people who have been on the receiving end of police abuse..

And the thread here asking for stories of police abuse show it's not an uncommon occurrence.

People who have been abused often suffer from PTSD and this kind of story brings it back, you should be more understanding of their strength of feelings.

As I said already, I've seen both sides of the police, behavior above and beyond and also some despicable abuse of their authority, I'm trying not to be one sided about this.

[TayTay]

38. Exactly why we need to take this seriously

Abuse of power harms people. We need to stop it whenever and wherever we can.

How do we do that? Are there any lessons from this case in Cambridge that apply to a larger audience? Can a dialogue between Prof Gate and Sgt. Crowley at all illuminate this discussion and maybe move the needle a bit on this so this doesn't happen again and suffering is avoided?

We need to talk. This won't happen by political osmosis. Nothing happens unless someone pushes it. The question is how is it to be pushed?

[karynnj]

43. I seriously doubt all the people who were over the top had

suffered from police abuse. I am not saying there is no police abuse ever.

[Fumesucker]

50. I think it is far more frequent than many people realize..

Unless the circumstances are quite unusual police abuse never becomes revealed.

I'm a white male of late middle age now, fairly well spoken and reasonably erudite and I've personally seen it and dealt with the exceedingly frustrating aftermath.

How much more common is it to those who do not have my advantages?

[Fumesucker]

29. Just going by Crowley's police report there was no justification for the arrest..

I read the report, Gates did nothing illegal until he stepped on his porch at the behest of officer Crowley, that's why Crowley had him step on the porch, so he could arrest him for disorderly conduct, Gates conduct was perfectly legal within the home.

That's all I really need to know, I don't even need to hear Gates' side of things, Crowley's own report makes it clear that Gates had done nothing worthy of arrest.

[TayTay]

37. And that point should come out in a discussion

Don't you think?

If this officer thought he had just cause, then perhaps other officers of the law think the same in similar but far less public cases. I think we would benefit from hearing what his thinking was in an open way and having someone as reasonable and informed as Professor Gates challenge that thinking. It might even make it into Sgt. Crowley's class on how not to do racial profiling.

[dogtag]

40. Not only the intolerance.

How about the hyperbole? Holy cowabonga! I thought that by the end of the week Professor would be 80 years old, blind and in a wheelchair.

[EFerrari]

48. Perhaps your reality needs a little updating.

Both men have issued statements and also made them in the press. We do indeed know what happened if we bothered to attend to those statements.

[hfojvt]

96. that's probably true of both sides in the debate. Everybody knows.

Unless there are more than two sides. There's the Crowley side, the Gates side, the both-in-the-wrong side, and the wait-for-the-facts side. edit: I myself have certainly not been in the latter group.

I understand why people would be quick to take Gates side. They know and like Gates, just like I feel like I know and like Asimov. And they hate cops because of their own experiences or what they hear about others' experiences (Rodney King, et. al.)

Gates has also certainly been getting plenty of press to tell his side. And can talk freely, presumably without any fear of a lawsuit. If, otoh, if the cop even says 'I made some mistakes, or lost my temper, etc.' or makes some other apology that could be used against him in a court of law. Gates may have some conundrums of his own if he were to admit to some mistakes that would seem to leave the people who have sorta gone all out to defend him twisting slowly in the wind.

Ir seems to me that we have different assumptions operating here. Detractors of Crowley seem to believe that 70-80 (or maybe even mid 90s) percent of white people are racists and that Crowley and defenders of Crowley are in that disgusting group. Whereas I feel that probably only 15-20% of people are racists and I doubt if Crowley is in the group and know that I am not and do not care to see such accusations flung about on very little evidence. See things a little differently and suddenly you are told "I know your kind. Your kind makes me want to puke."

[karynnj]

11. I agree completely

The President did the right thing yesterday. I am very glad he had the grace to reach out to the police officer. I hope that the teachable moment will come when Gates and Crowley go to DC to meet with the President.

As the facts started coming out yesterday, making it clear that the situation was murky, I was most disappointed with those who made a virtue out of not apologizing. It takes a stronger man to admit that maybe he had said too much, than to point to the fact that he had prefaced the comments with not knowing the details.

[MichiganVote]

19. At this point Obama has done what coulda, woulda, shoulda been done. Let's move on.

And for those who persist in thinking I'm out to get anyone,

Name callers may now go to the left, peacemakers to the right....middle of the roaders join me for a beer.

[TayTay]

36. I wanted to join the President for a beer,

well, he did offer to buy. I mean, geez, that's a sweet offer.

[dogtag]

45. The next question is

how on earth can the White House confab (with beverage of choice) not become another media circus? Is it possible that no cameras would be present? Could Professor Gates and Sergeant Crowley be sneaked in through a back door?

I admire Sergeant Crowley for suggesting the meeting. If I were in his shoes, I'd find it pretty daunting to sit down with two powerful men who also happen to be pals. Like my President, I don't have all the facts and am happy to admit it.

Should I be queasy about the meeting possibly spiraling out of control just like the issue in question?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

61. Oh, the White House is very secretive

when it wants to be. There are all sorts of entrances that the pubic cannot access.

But, I doubt this will be done in private.

Was it Crowley who suggested the meeting? I got the impression from President Obama's statements that it was his idea, but I don't care who came up with it - it's brilliant.

No, people behave well in the presence of such authority, and if you've ever visited the White House, its majesty - not to mention all the Marine guards EVERYWHERE - brings out everyone's Sunday best behavior. Ain't no one gonna flip out, although Henry Gates is far more experienced with the press than is Crowley, so he'll be "on" should cameras be around.

My preference is that it take place without any publicity.......................

[omega minimo]

89. Then Obama can meet with a Health Insurance CEO and a Citizen whose loved one died w/o Healthcare

:toast:

[Duckhunter935]

33. I posted here that I would reserve judgment

until all of the facts were in. I was pinned as a freeper troll, a racist, call "not so bright" a "moron" because I did not go with the flow.

I find it too bad that ones opinion can not even be expressed here at times without vile personal comebacks.

Yes, I think both parties were wrong but the officer should have left and deescalated the situation.

[Fumesucker]

51. Which is worse?

Being called a "freeper troll" or "a purist"? :)

I get called purist a lot, water off a duck's back to me though.

[GeorgeGist]

46. Intraspecific competion is all about losing ...

no matter which side you listen too.

[YvonneCa]

53. EXACTLY. I am also very proud of my President...

...and his handling of this issue. My thoughts:

"Teachable Moments"

This country hasn't had a leader who understands their importance...until now. For me, it was refreshing that Obama just answered the press conference question honestly, without equivocation. It may have been a political lapse to say 'stupidly', but he spoke his truth. That's okay by me...BETTER than okay.

Setting up honest communication about issues over which we have conflict is a first step in conflict resolution. Including the people in this communication is not what the country is used to, but it needs to happen. Often. JMHO. It IS how we fix things.

The actions of President Obama reflect the best of conflict resolution skills. (Bring people together to communicate, use de-escalating language, listen to each other, etc.). Solving a conflict BEGINS with listening to each other.

We are so lucky to have a 'President Obama' after years of no or incompetent leadership for years. Can you imagine Bush's answer to that question?

For me, I'm excited to see teachable moments being used to TEACH. When I've worked with kids to develop these skills...there has often been a disconnect when they see adults do the opposite. President Obama is giving them a new role model...one that leads to a better world.

I applaud President Obama for his leadership. :patriot:

[YvonneCa]

55. We still need a 'civility' forum...

...here. :7

[omega minimo]

58. We need a literate forum

Where words matter, sentences occur, facts are checked, points of view are considered and those who love mob rule and want to talk out their asses can go elsewhere.

[YvonneCa]

63. ...

... :7 :7 :7 That was FUNNY! Yes, we do! ;)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

64. Now,

what the fuck is wrong with you, coming up with an idea like that?

(Ah, I slay myself................)

[YvonneCa]

67. I tried it before and...

...my post sunk like a rock. :7

[Tangerine LaBamba]

68. Yeah, that's no surprise -

I doubt such a forum would have any takers.

But, seriously, it's not a bad idea. Like detention - where offending DUers could be sent for a period of time, the only forum available to them, so that they could contemplate their transgressions.

That sounds far too "Catholic school," doesn't it?

[YvonneCa]

69. Yes...

...I think it does! :7

[omega minimo]

70. Your transgressions seem always wrapped in flowery tissue with paper umbrellas

charming the pants off whomever you are hoisting on their own petard. :spray:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

72. Ah, you old sweettalker, you -

when it comes to charming someone's pants off, you're the best...............

[omega minimo]

74. Hee hee

[omega minimo]

60. Indeed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6128545

[mmonk]

62. Respect is earned.

[EFerrari]

65. Yes. And rights are asserted, not negotiated. n/t

[omega minimo]

76. and sometimes their assanded

:yourock:

[omega minimo]

71. Being respectful is learned.

[mmonk]

73. And sometimes those that demand respect show none in return.

Such as in a retaliatory arrest or rhetoric from people that attack the other person personally and thus do not deserve the respect they request.

[omega minimo]

75. The Golden Rule

[mmonk]

77. Yep. Reciprocity.

[omega minimo]

78. Nope. When it is extended. There is no guarantee it will be reciprocated. That's the lesson.

[mmonk]

79. Or when none is extended to begin with, there is no reason

to show it to them even if they feel they should have it.

[omega minimo]

80. Unless you follow the Golden Rule. And learned to be respectful.

[mmonk]

82. Learning takes two.

An extremist, for instance, might feel they deserve respect but if they extend none, none is deserved.

[omega minimo]

84. Someday you'll understand

[mmonk]

93. If you are speaking of something like Ghandi or King

in nonviolent protest, that is something which allows teaching by showing the brutality or unreason of others and I support it. If you want to teach an individual a lesson through kindness that isn't reciprocated, I understand that. If you do something, however to appease someone who is wrong, there is no lesson learned as they will take it as affirmation.

[omega minimo]

94. The one who learns the lesson doesn't need the scorecard. The outcome is separate from the practice.

[mmonk]

97. Its not about keeping score but rather if there is a lesson learned

and therefore the outcome has to be successful for the practice to have any meaning.

[omega minimo]

98. Yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6148067&mesg_id=6149840

[mmonk]

100. Sorry for the confusion but it was fun, kind of like

debate club. The point I was trying to make is don't do it appease. It's like if someone was in Auschwitz and through acts of kindness and respect to a guard, the person's life is spared but if the others perished, there was no lesson learned by those that did wrong.

[omega minimo]

101. We can only do what is right and have no control over what others may or may not learn.

Your analogy is interesting. Those are the small, personal stories that are made into books or film.... maybe with ambiguous endings of who learned what; and the big picture of the world moves on................

[mmonk]

103. I understand the cop could have exercised a teachable moment

by walking away. Obama didn't need to apologize to pander to the racists in the rightwing media. He did do a good thing by saying to the policeman involved that he wasn't calling him bad. The decision to arrest was what was stupid.

[omega minimo]

104. oh is that what we're talking about?

:spray:

Walking away or handling the situation peacefully. :thumbsup: AFAIK "tumultuousness" is not a crime.

IF there was racial profiling and IF the professor reacted to that and IF the officer teaches classes on racial profiling, he would have been equipped to handle the encounter without handcuffs.

[YvonneCa]

87. Learning takes one...

...the learner. ;)

[omega minimo]

91. Ah

Civil and wise :pals:

[YvonneCa]

95. Aww...thanks...

... :pals:

[omega minimo]

92. Rec +10 for the best thread on DU in ages. A pleasure. Thanks all. And I mean ALL.

:yourock:

[hfojvt]

99. I would like this OP better with a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcWxFR4uh0

What are words for, if no one listens anymore?

[omega minimo]

102. Look at the teeth on that woman!

That song has stood the test of time quite well. Might have to go to the record shop tonight.

:loveya::hfojvt: :spray: