"Discretion is the better part of valor"? Prudence, responsibility, blame, and guilt.

[TahitiNut]

We're again talking past each other, creating a pot luck stew for yet another food fight. It's not merely that each person presumes a differing set of "facts" and not just that we each live in our unique worlds based on our own life experiences, the way our 'world' has treated us, and how we've learned to frame what we see. It's also a matter of speaking to distinct and conflicting objectives ... the questions of prudent behavior vs. guilt ... the questions of how one is advised to behave prudently in this 'world' as opposed to how one exercises one's rights.

Let's use a more overt metaphor. Let's suppose an attractive young woman decides to wear her most provocative Daisy Dukes, go party at night, get drunk, and walk home alone. She is assaulted and raped. She is a victim. Few would "blame" her for the assault. Most would agree that the decision to behave in the manner described wasn't prudent. "I wouldn't do that." We all choose behavior based on the view we've developed of our 'world' and the priorities we've set ... principle vs. risk. Clearly, the bald statement of "she should've expected that" can be met with anger and resentment. It sounds like blaming the victim and most would agree that it "shouldn't happen" in a civilized society. Those are fairly common expectations.

At the same time, it's not all that much different from smearing one's self with raw meat and walking in the woods where grizzley bears live. Is that prudent? No. But it's also not seen as the exercise of one's "civil liberties" either. That aspiration ... that expectation that we live in a civil society intrudes upon our conciousness ... depending upon our life experiences and how we see that "real world."

It may not be obvious, but similar split reactions happen to whistleblowers. When an employee stands firm and refuses to "go along to get along" their coworkers usually engage in the self-serving attitude of blaming them for "rocking the boat" ... the "I know better than to do that" security blanket. Again, it's not so much a question of right vs. wrong ... it's a question of discretion vs. valor.

Like it or not, the vast majority of us tend to adopt the Tonya Harding Defense against bear attacks. It's not necessary to be the fastest runner in your group to escape the hungry bear. It's only necessary to keep from being the slowest. So, we make sure someone in the group gets kneecapped. (If someone else does the dirty deed, we can even feel more superior.)

How do we teach our children?? Do we actually teach them right from wrong? Or do we teach them discretion?

How do we counsel our friends? When a friend discovers that their spouse cheated on them, do we tell our friend they should learn to pick better mates? Or do we assure our friend that they've been "wonged" and that they're "right" and "somebody should punish the wrongdoer."

What's our objective? Are we trying to be self-serving with "that couldn't happen to me because I know better than to behave that way" or are we actually participating in the vigilantism of lynching wrong-doers?

Is "discretion the better part of valor" ... or is it just another word for cowardice?


(I dunno ... I'm just a nut.) :dunce:

[cliffordu]

1. Discretion leads me to K&R this post.

Nice work.

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. As one of my favortie troublemakers said....

Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice. - Thomas Paine

You raise tough questions, TN.

What does one actually do when faced with choices in principle? My short answer is that one does what one is capable of doing at that moment. As a pacifist, for instance, I'm against war. But, I do pay my taxes for the simple reason that I don't want to go to prison. The easy cop out is "what good would it do?" But, the real reason is that don't want to go to prison .

I've put my ass on the line a few times for principle. On other occasions I've played rabbit or ostrich.

The best answer that I can come up with is, "I do my bit when I'm capable of it."

[TahitiNut]

3. How do we speak of those who make the other choice?

It's a conundrum in a discussion forum, I think. In "real life" it's even more troublesome. We sing the praises of Davy Crockett who "kilt him a bar when he was only three" ... but God forbid our own kid would try to do so. If we teach our kids some amalgam of valor and discretion, how do we react when the choice isn't one we'd make? How about when it's someone else's kid? (How about when it's a soldier in Iraq? God forbid it's a Viet Nam vet, huh?)

How do we distinguish between the valorous and the Quixotic?

We see a similar dichotomy in how we regard elected politicians. The projection of the principled vs. pragmatic is redolent in the rhetoric of DU. When is "pragmatic" mere risk-aversion instead of a 'realistic' approach to similar goals??

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. I think that statements about what one would do in any situation is nonsensical.

"If I were him...." "If someone broke into my house I'd...". The truth being that none of us can say what we would do. But, there's a helluva big chorus telling us what they'd do and/or what we should do.

As to choices. When I was a counselor, some of my clients made some unquestionably bad choices. After much experience, and a good dose of therapy, (4 years of it) I was finally, and grudgingly, able to learn that people will make their own decisions no matter how stupid or insane. Or, how many alternatives I proffered. I also learned that it was up to me to make my own choices depending on what I was actually capable of and willing to do. The willing part is the rub because it forced me to face myself.

The real answer to the question, "What would I do if..." is "I don't know." When faced with the option of extending my enlistment to go to Vietnam, (though the gunny sergeant was reluctant to admit that would be the outcome) I refused. Afterwords, when I was (fairly) safely out. I asked myself would I have gone if they ordered me to? Probably. But, I really don't know. Would I have shot at people that didn't know, had nothing against, and might even have liked, if ordered to? Again, I don't know.

Valor vs Quixotic? Another tough one. Do we only act with the assurance of victory? I hope not.

One of my grudges against politicians is that, in most cases, that is exactly what they do.

In that case, it is back to me. Do I vote for them as the "lesser of two evils" and "not as bad" as the other guy? Do I vote against them knowing my vote is Quixotic, in that it will have no measurable effect?

You know, old friend, now that I'm thinking about it, I believe that most of what I do in these arenas is follow my gut instinct and my conscience in any situation.

[bobbolink]

19. These are the thoughts that define us as a society. It's telling that a conversation

like this is so rare.

Thank you so much for your honesty.... it's refreshing,, and gives me much more hope than that damned injunction to "have hope"!!!

It won't happen, but this is exactly the type of conversation that I'd love to have. It seems we relegate words like this to our college days, then "grow out of it"

I appreciate your thoughts.

[bobbolink]

18. I begin by recognizing that different people have different experiences and levels of strength.

For instance, I greatly admire Mandela, but when I read of him, and try to imagine doing the same thing, I fall short.

I don't expect others to reach the level of the bar that Nelson Mandella set, either.

He is a goal to strive for, but I doubt few of us will reach those heights.

If we can do more to accept that in others, then I think we could actually reach closer to those heights, rather than judging and blaming.

[bobbolink]

22. Excellent. And we all have our capability lines in different places at different times.

I appreciate and admire your honesty.

Thank you so much.

[noiretextatique]

4. simple rules to live by

don't be an asshole, but don't be a punk.
if you are wronged, defend yourself...up to the point of being an asshole.
don't be an aggressor, but don't be a coward.
if you don't fuck with people, they probably won't fuck with you. if you are fucked with, make sure the person won't fuck with anyone else after fucking with you. (but don't be an asshole)
don't be afraid to stand alone, but don't be a rebel without a clue.
if you blow the whistle, be prepared for allies to abandon you.
don't be a mark, but be prepared to defend your choices.
if you decide to wear daisy dukes, don't get drunk and walk home alone. if decide to walk home alone, take a .38 with you. :hi:
that's my short list :loveya:

[TahitiNut]

5. "That which is essential is invisible to the eye."

I'm not just a dirty old man ... I'm a blind man feeling my way along. :dunce:


:loveya:

[noiretextatique]

7. humility is something i have yet to master

as you have :loveya:

but truly, this is my golden rule:

you can't court negativity and expect happiness to fight its way through the shadows...the negativity is stronger, readily available and all around you. it is the love that you have to fuss over and nurture, like a delicate, beautiful, rare and precious thing.

we had a meetup a few weeks ago at trishs house. willyt, tinore, wyrter2000 and others. it was a blast...DU style :7

[bobbolink]

20. "if you don't fuck with people, they probably won't fuck with you. "

And that's the myth that has spurred the current conversation.

It sounds great.

It isn't true for segments of the population.

[noiretextatique]

24. but did you read the second half?

i think gates has set crowley straight for life. unfortunately, not all of us have the power to do that. that rule was more about not being an asshole...a lesson i think officer crowley has learned.

[bobbolink]

25. sigh... yes, I read it. OK? It's still very much a class thing, and is used

against those of us who ARE fucked with.

And it hurts.

OK?

[noiretextatique]

27. i don't mean to dismiss anyone

i get it. still, i am talking more about personal rules to live by, so if you have a problem with that...have at it.

[bobbolink]

29. I get that you aren't intending that result. STILL, this is what is thrown at us.

It's a blame.

And it hurts.

Does that matter?

Because if you can't hear the hurt that is caused, and/or it doesn't matter, there is nothing left to talk about.

So, YOU have at it.

[TahitiNut]

30. Sometimes we hear 'blame' when we're given some suppport in doing what WE can do.

It's often not within the power of the spouse of a cheater to change the spouse's behavior. But IT IS often within the power of s victim to ameliorate their circumstances and (perhaps) avoid such circumstances again. Not EVERY ally finds it necessary to throw back a brew and rant about the injustices. We do each other a disservice if we fail to offer prophylactics or analgesics in the absence of an immediate cure.

It's probably important to know the difference.

Viktor Frankl thought so. :shrug:

[bobbolink]

31. I didn't expect a cutting response from you, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

It's clear there is some tie between you and the person I was responding to.

Sorry you think I haven't "done enough", and that I need to know more about "the differenc, and you're entitled to your opinion.

And that is part of what I was referring to.

I haven't judged you, and don't wish more from you.

Enough.

So long.

[TahitiNut]

32. !

:wow:

[noiretextatique]

33. stop it, please

i am not blaming anyone. another rule: if you want to be a victim, you can always create a victimizer. i...did...not...hurt...you.

[bobbolink]

34. you wouldn't recognize the damage you did if it bit you.

And what is sooooo charming is that you don't give a shit.

Just so you know.... I don't take orders from authoritarians.

Ordering me to "stop it" just shows your true stripes......you get off on feeling superior.

edited to say....I'm sick to death of insensitive bullies who have no compassion calling themselves "progressive".

You keep calling me out, and I'll do the same. The damage of this whole James Dobson "Tough Love" shit you promote is tearing this country apart.

[PatSeg]

8. You stirred some memories and a realization

I had come to long ago, but had forgotten. Doing the right thing rarely will bring one any real rewards or recognition, just the knowing that you've lived up to your principles. Unlike in the movies, your deeds will often be ignored or even ridiculed.

After I read your post I did a flashback to my childhood when I befriended a new student in Junior High who was Mexican and was shocked at the reaction I received from my friends. The friendship lasted a very short time as Marianne's family traveled the race track circuit, but I was an outcast for several years, never being recognized for taking the right stand. Some times I would ask myself if it was worth it, but then I wondered if I could or would have done things any differently - the answer was always NO. I befriended Marianne because I liked her and I was oblivious to her ethnic heritage, until other classmates made it an issue.

Similar things have happened to me throughout my life, not because I was heroic in any sense, but because it was my nature. My only rewards were usually that I could live with myself and I learned not to seek or expect external validation.

[TahitiNut]

10. "Virtue is its own reward."

I, like many, heard this aphorism for many years before realizing the double-edged sword. (1) I'd better not expect a virtuous act to be appreciated, since "no good deed goes unpunished." (2) Any motivation that's based on an expectation of a 'reward' is, by definition, not virtuous.

That's an undergraduate course in the School of Hard Knox. :dunce: The admission requirements are a bit higher for members of Approval Addicts Anonymous.

[PatSeg]

14. Yeah, those cliches never really hit home for me

until I was much older. As a kid they were just meaningless words that "old folks" threw out there. My mother was Queen of the Cliche and as such they went in one ear and out the other!

I guess I never had major expectations when I rather spontaneously did what came naturally to me, but my biggest disappointment was seeing people I thought I knew well behave in hateful, ignorant ways. It was rather scary seeing them transformed before my eyes into something barely recognizable.

[bobbolink]

23. Yes, much truth in that. HOWEVER, it also points the way to something we can do

to positively affect our ugly society... when we DO see someone doing the right thing, we can be the rare ones to appreciate them for it, and let them know we see, we value it, and we care.

It's really not that hard to do.

And could have such HUGE effects.

[BlooInBloo]

9. (shrug) Blaming black folks is waaaay cooler than blaming women.

[TahitiNut]

11. Fewer candidates for the vigilante posse, I'm guessing.

:silly:

[Stinky The Clown]

12. Once again, the nut nails it

K&R, my friend.

[NNN0LHI]

13. Any time I have had dealing with police I could never take my eyes off their gun

And knowing they had the licence to use it compounded that awareness exponentially.

This has led to me using the word "Sir", no matter what the situation was. Didn't make any difference whether I was in the right or in the wrong I still used that one word over and over again.

I think doing so saved me a a lot of grief more than once. I can't be sure about that because I never pushed the envelope to find out.

Got to know when to fold them is my motto.

Don

[hfojvt]

16. really, that's kinda sad

I hardly ever think about or notice their gun and I have had many interactions with cops, most of them positive. I try to be polite and reasonable with everyone, but 'I call no one sir, except my batallion commander'. I probably enter a situation with a cop with the naive expectation that we are both on the same side, that I am one of the good guys and so are they. And also that if they messed with me for no reason that I would come down on them like a foot on a bug. Maybe not that night, but the next day the mayor, the press and so on would hear about it. Probably I over-estimate my ability to kick up enough dust to be an actual sh*tstorm, but such optimism keeps me from fearing the police.

[starroute]

15. This is about changing society, not about personal behavior

It used to be a traditional way of praising an effective ruler by saying that when he was king a virgin could carry a bag of gold from one end of the kingdom to the other and both the virgin and the gold would arrive intact.

Most times and places are not that secure, but it doesn't mean you have to accept a broken-down state as the norm.

Same thing with protecting widows and orphans, making sure no child goes to bed hungry, and all of that good stuff. These ideals are not some sort of bizarre modern bleeding-heart aberration. They've been the standards for good government ever since government was invented. The bizarre modern aberration is the belief that government functions only to protect property and the sanctity of contracts and that actual human beings are on their own.

So it really isn't the kind of either-or situation the OP lays out, where the only choices are discretion or foolhardiness. The real choice is between accepting a defective status quo in which those seem to be the only choices -- or working for a society that actually lives up to what everybody for thousands of years has known a society is supposed to be.

[glitch]

26. +1

[Control-Z]

37. I wish I could rec this

most excellent response to the OP.

[bobbolink]

17. You're trying to make me think. It hurts. ^_^

You and this post represent DU at it's best.

:applause:

Too bad offerings like this are so rarely seen.

[LaydeeBug]

21. I think "discretion is the better part of valor" means something else, but I like your point.

discretion can mean two things: One meaning secretive, the other, particular.

Someone can have a discrete purpose, meaning individual, separate and distinct.

Someone can have a discreet affair, meaning secret and careful.

I've always understood that discretion being the better part of valor means to do the right thing, and not boast about it.

On edit: Now that I think about it, the OP works with either definition of discretion. :dunce:

[TahitiNut]

28. "Now that I think about it..."

Exactly. It's funny how often I've found myself saying that. :dunce:

[TahitiNut]

35. For Sunday.

:kick:

[reflection]

36. k/r for a thoughtful piece.