Good Cop / Bad Cop

[Mythsaje]

Not all cops are bad. Hell, MOST cops probably aren't what we'd call "bad." But as long as they are not soundly censured and driven out of the profession by those who are, by our perspective, "good," (which means those who don't engage in bullying behavior, expect special treatment because of their job, and/or aren't actively corrupt) we shouldn't anticipate the "Cop-Hating" to diminish by any perceptible percentage.

Cops should be held up to a higher standard, given that they are trusted to carry weapons and regulate the behavior of the rest of us. In consideration of this fairly obvious fact, they should welcome rather than oppose such things as citizen oversight and the public filming of their interactions with members of the citizenry. It would protect THEM from wrongful charges of abuse of power, brutality, or corruption as well as protect citizens from said behavior.

And all the calls for an end to it will fall on deaf ears as long as their defenders fail to realize one thing. Most of us are not "Cop Haters," but "BAD Cop Haters," and we really wish more decent cops would publicly join our ranks rather than reacting so defensively. I have met as many what I'd consider decent cops as bad ones. So I know they're out there.

If they want to change public attitude, they need to speak up and let us know that they're on OUR side, not the side of their criminal co-workers.

edited for clarity... (I forgot the word "diminish.")

[annabanana]

1. Stop making sense!.. I rec'd this, but I see I've already been undone.

There are clearly people here who would rather fan the flames.. . .

[marmar]

2. True. The Blue Wall of Silence does all cops a disservice.

nt

[HughMoran]

3. I agree

I find most cops to be decent hard working folks, so I'm generally not down on them, but it doesn't take many jagoffs to spoil it for the rest.

[armyowalgreens]

4. Unfortunately there is a good number of cop haters here...

And they are being complete dickheads. I also don't see a lot of people shutting them up, either. Which leads me to believe that most people support their bullshit.

[bsd13]

7. Exactly.

Because it has become "cool" to hate cops. It's become a sign of a person's "progressiveness", to malign cops.

[seabeyond]

17. a decade ago, i started encouraging my little boy, about two to interact with the cops

when they were in our local conveinent stores to get coffee and a break, i would tell son. k, there is a policeman in there. i want you to put on a big ole smile and say hi Mr. Policeman. for a couple reasons. i didnt want him to fear police. i wanted him to learn about community. i wanted him to respect police.

6, 7, 8 times over a period of time, not ONE cop was polite, nice or embracing of sons efforts. i would tell him, not all people like kids, not a deal. but i saw that they were not happy people, they did not want community interaction and i stopped it

i did see fireman at grocery stores often though. so i told him to approach them

they were so kind and nice and took the time to interact. more than one occassion they would put son in firetruck as they waited. they would talk about the dinners they were going to make. i remember these guys and get tears what they gave my boys and to this day, we go into a grocery store and see the dudes and sons will ask, .... whats for dinner. and we always have a pleasent exchange adn sons are able to let them know their appreciation with the efforts

it was that time i started noticing the change in the police force.

and cops became popular on tv. bush wasnt in it. jsut got worse once bush got in

does it sound like i am a cop hater?

[bsd13]

25. Yes

it does. It sounds like they aren't reacting how you think they should react to your son and you're mad at them about it. I've known plenty of cops both personally and professionally (and no I'm not a cop) and I can say down to the last one when they were on duty they are all business and are cold as it gets towards anyone and everyone. Off duty they are normal people.

[seabeyond]

27. took the time to interact.... you arent open. i wont bother. waste of time

and about useless.

[Mythsaje]

30. It didn't use to be that way...

The neighborhood cop was a member of the community and acted and was treated as such. These new models are defective and will never be considered part of the community.

[1monster]

42. The way it used to be: A retired army sergeant who had a drinking problem

used make regular nuisance calls to the 911 station my father worked for. She would complain, moan, and otherwise tie up the line.

She was warned on several occasions that she was violating the law by calling 911 for non emergency call. But she was not sober and the message didn't get through. These were kinder and gentler times when the cops knew their citizens, so she wasn't arrested or charged for the nuisance calls.

One evening, the station's lieutenant happened to be in the room when she called, and, as usual, prefaced her drunken tirade with, "I'm a retired Army Sergeant..."

At that point, the lieutenant butted in on the call and answered, "Well, Sergeant, I'm a Lieutenant and I'm ordering you to shut up and not call here again!"

It worked. She didn't call again.

In today's world, she would have been arrested immediately and probably hit with multiple charges.

[Mariana]

53. They don't want to be members of the community.

There are plenty of exceptions, of course. But there seem to be fewer all the time.

[Raineyb]

54. I think you're right.

In NYC most of the cops live in Long Island.

People have been trying to get a residency requirement for the police here. The line of thinking is if they're running home to other communities how much are they really going to care about the community they're patrolling other than getting a paycheck.?

Needless to say the police union weren't too keen on that idea.

[seabeyond]

55. somewhere along the way they made themselves seperate. n/t

[Mythsaje]

39. Dislike and distrust among progressives and liberals

isn't NEW. It goes back to the early labor movement (when cops were paid to bust heads by the bosses) all the way through the anti-war and civil rights movements of the 60s. The cops have always been seen to some extent as the enemy. We show cops just as much respect as they show us. Generally.

[Flaneur]

60. Oh, rubbish. People malign cops for all the shit they pull.

All the beat downs, all the tasings, all the killings, all the racial profiling, all the illegal searches, all the SWAT-style raids, all the dead pets, all the authoritarian arrogance.

I think we have a serious problem with the policing culture in this country. Gee, I wonder why there are so many "cop haters"? Got an answer for that, beyond it's "cool."

[CakeGrrl]

5. Good point. Police have to earn respect like anyone else by

honoring their commitment 'to protect and serve'.

If they become corrupt and/or abuse their power, they shouldn't carry the badge and the weapons they are privileged to carry.

[tj2001]

12. "Protect and Serve" has been transformed into "Protect and Serve The Police"

We're all expected to cover their asses and treat them like royalty and worship them like heroes?

Fuck that shit. Respect has to be earned. Besides, who is working for whom?

[PSzymeczek]

34. More like "Protect and serve your friends".

About 11 years ago, I had an accident in the parking lot of the building (on an Army post) in which I worked. The person who hit me was going the wrong way (the parking lot had slanted spaces) and failed to yield the right of way (the way the parking lot was set up, there was a central two-way entrance/exit to the street and the lanes fed it. I was in the central exit lane) The MP that responded was obviously, ffromm the conversation, a friend of the boyfriend of the girl that hit me. I was ticketed for failure to yield, even though the reverse was obvious from the position of the cars. When I went to get a copy of the other driver's statement, it was dated 8 days after the accident (coaching!), whereas I was required to give my statement at the scene. There was also no mention of the fact that that she had her approximately-6-year-old unrestrained in a car seat. I decided to fight the ticket, and fortunately, with the wisdom of a black captain from JAG, the MP's bias was revealed and I won; the ticket was thrown out.

[bsd13]

37. Was it relevant to say

"with the wisdom of a black captain from JAG" ?

Just wondering what bearing it has on your story?

[Raineyb]

6. When good cops stop covering for bad cops maybe we can have a conversation.

As it is good cops cover for bad cops which makes them as bad as the cops they cover for.

[bsd13]

8. Example

Please. And not hearsay...

[seabeyond]

13. every cop reading crowleys report knows he lead gates out to arrest. it was clear

cop speak.

all across the nation the cops stood up for crowley. i did not hear one say... hey man, lets be honest, you brought him out to arrest him. now, will stand next to you for the arrest, but lets be honest

every cop that read that report knows what happened. the cop got pissed and had the intent to arrest

and they pretend otherwise

how do you respect that

[bsd13]

15. Did it occur to you

That maybe the cops are standing up for Crowley because it was a valid arrest? Even if you don't agree, could it possibly be that they support Crowley not because he's a cop, but they believe he acted well within his authority? Just saying...

[seabeyond]

18. if you read the report it is clear that he is not answering gates questions, leading him out of

house for the purpose of arrest.

no, it did not occur to me it was valid. even the majority that are supporting crowley on du who are not cops, dont think it was a valid arrest. the police didnt think it was a valid arrest. charges dropped

[bsd13]

21. Actually the report says

He answered his question twice and on the third time went outside so he could hear over Gate's screaming like a lunatic <-(My wording). It's when Gate's continued his tirade outside that he was arrested.

The majority of domestic disturbance charges get dropped. It's a police power generally used to bring order to a situation, not to prosecute a crime. Hanging your hat on the fact that the charges were dropped is a poor idea if you want to say it proves a point.

[seabeyond]

24. i am not gonna continue to hash it out. it is clear what happened. people know. i dont

do the pretend world

[bsd13]

28. pointless reply that added nothing

so I'm editing it out.

[ThoughtCriminal]

26. So what WAS the purpose of asking Crowly outside

Leaving after he knew there was no crime being committed defuses the situation.

You are not making the arrest sound any less stupid. What was Gates crime?

[bsd13]

31. And I quote

My reason for wanting to leave the residence was that Gates was yelling very loud and the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent informaiton to ECC or other responding units.

Had Gates calmly walked outside and said, "Officer I would like your badge number and ID please" I'm sure it would have been a done deal. I've done it myself several times. The reaction has always been. "Sure sir, here you are" as they give them to me. Very easy. But Gates didn't do that. He screamed and yelled as if he had been violated.

[ThoughtCriminal]

33. So Crowly leaves and transmits without Gates - no problem, no arrest

Do you think Gates would keep yelling at the walls of his own house. At that point he knew no crime had been committed.

Why did he have to ask Gates to go with him?

Neither his OWN account or your rationalizations are not making this sound any less stupid for Crowly.

And taht is even if you believe that report is anything other than an attempt to explain away an arrest that was obviously bogus.

It is EXACTLY this kind of defense that makes "Good Cops" bad.

[Mythsaje]

19. Which is to say they approve of abuse of authority?

Not a good argument.

[bsd13]

22. No

I think it says that they don't believe he abused his authority. If they believed he had I have no doubt that they would have told everyone that he had.

[Mythsaje]

29. Sure they would...

Because that's happened every time we've seen video of cops doing something obviously wrong. All the good cops in the U.S. have stood up and shouted "THAT'S BULLSHIT!"

Oh, wait. I don't think that's ever happened. Hmmm.

[me b zola]

38. You mean abusing his authority

Sorry, but it is nothing less than an abuse of one's power if a cop feels the need to handcuff & arrest someone in their own home just because that person did not appreciate being questioned in his own home.

What's wrong? Don't appreciate my tone? Maybe I should be arrested.

[EFerrari]

46. Then they need a reality check. n/t

[Seldona]

32. Please.

Try Google. I doubt you could get through it all if you were given a lifetime.

[Raineyb]

43. I seriously doubt any example would be good enough for you as you seem to worship the police

Nonetheless, try googling Anthony Baez, Abner Luima, Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell.

Hearsay? My guess is you don't really believe black people when they say there's profiling so I doubt anything will be good enough for the likes of you. You insult under the guise of debating and I find you rather revolting.

[Ignis]

62. Those are all OBVIOUS fabrications meant to discredit LEOs!

:sarcasm:

I applaud you for trying, but I don't think our friend is really looking for honest examples, do you? Why bother looking at evidence to the contrary when you've already made up your mind?

[izquierdista]

10. Ding! ding! ding!

We have a winner right here! Can't say it any better than that.

[goddess40]

16. BINGO !!!

Sad but true. I've even seen them lie on the witness stand to cover for themselves or others.

[BlooInBloo]

9. Yep. As long as cops protect each other over protecting the public, they can go to hell.

[seabeyond]

11. what people fail to see, when a policeman knows about abuse and says nothing, he becomes that bad

cop.

for all the police that do wrong, the police that stay silent are just as bad, tis their reposnibility and obligation, duty to turn that bad seed in, speak out, defend the victim. because he knows better.

and the only way this can happen is an overhaul of the higher ups. only they can provide the envionment that will allow this to happen

[tj2001]

14. Also, police worship leads to authoritarianism

it is also very un-American.

[WeDidIt]

20. Good cops are physically indiscernible from bad cops, ergo, treat all cops as if they were bad cops

and feign respect.

The busted head avoided could be your own.

As soon as "good" cops stop covering for bad cops, I might stop feigning respect and actually have some.

[seabeyond]

23. what a world. they assume we are all criminals. and we assume they are all bad. so

we can both maybe survive.

pretty damn sad

but exactly how it is

[tech3149]

35. In the same vein, I will offer someone in a position of authority

the same level of respect and consideration they offer me. In fact I'll try to go beyond that. I have no problem dealing with LEO's or others in positions of "official" authority as long as they don't treat me as an enemy. After all, I help pay their salary.

I've had good and bad interactions with law enforcement and people with designated power and it has always been my experience that my capitulation did the most to avoid confrontation.

I've got friends who are cops and had to deal with many more professionally. I know most of them are good people and understand that they have to deal with an unknown threat. I'd give them a pass if it were not for the progressive militarization of our police forces.
I've lived in some pretty tough neighborhoods and never had a problem keeping safe. Keep your head up high and treat everyone as a friend and neighbor.
As far as LEO's, I think the best bet is to get them out of the cars and make them live in the community they patrol.
Re-establish the sense of community and knowing your neighbors and this shit won't be a problem.

[MrScorpio]

36. I'm not a cop hater

However, I am wary of them

It's what one has to do to survive in America

[Mythsaje]

40. I really think this is a subject we need to discuss more

because it's something we're divided on that we don't need to be. We need more action against bad cops, and we need those who support the good cops, including the good cops, to stand with us, not them.

[conscious evolution]

41. Good cop bad cop Isn't that an interrogation technique?

Which ever role they are playing they still want to bust your ass.

[hfojvt]

44. what is a criminal co-worker though?

My favorite example, which I have used before is of a cop who worked for about thirty years (and thus was not that far away from retirement). He was fired for punching (and maybe a kick or two as well) a guy after a traffic stop and this was caught on tape.

A bad cop gets what he has coming to him, right?

Not the way I see it. Not if you know, as it were, the rest of the story.

The thing about higher standards, is that I think I hold myself to pretty high standards, and, as such, I don't hold anybody else to higher standards than I expect for myself. If I put myself in their shoes and think 'I might have done the same thing'. I don't expect cops to be robo-cops without human emotions, including the emotion of anger. They are not Spock any more than I am or Leonard Nimoy is, even if that is the goal. Even if that is the goal, I don't think there should be zero tolerance for the fault of being human.

Mistakes happen too, sometimes with horrible consequences, and sometimes done by otherwise reasonable and smart people. Once I created a huge brush pile, and decided I would burn it. This was on my property, and I had neither a well nor running water. I had a couple of buckets of water. I, having only experienced campfires, did not realize that brush burns like pine needles - with a whoosh. It took off in a hurry and I quickly decided it was out of control and threw my bucket of water on it. This was a little bit like trying to stop a charging rhino by throwing a baseball at it. Knocked it down and it sprang right back up. Stumbled for a few steps but soon had all of its momentum back.

Soon, it was like a little piece of the sun had landed in my small meadow and I was running around trying to throw dirt on the edges and pound it out with my shovel as it began to spread in my woods. I had no phone to call a fire department, the nearest of which was probably 15 miles away. I could imagine 80 acres or more being burned and me facing authorities and victims of fire who would say 'what the hell were you thinking?'

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

But they don't teach this stuff in calculus class or university physics. The thing that saved me though is that deciduous forests do not burn like pine forests. Leaves stay a litle damp and moldy and smolder rather than go in a whoosh. So I only ended up with an hour of panic and running around before my own private sun ran out of fuel.

That is just to say that also, if I ever have to throw myself on the mercy of the court, I hope that the court has some mercy.

So back to this criminal cop. He was involved in a high speed chase, going at high speeds for a few miles until the truck he was chasing crashed. Going up to the car, the cop sees that there is a baby, or small child, in the passenger seat. So after he drags the driver out and pushes him to the ground, he hits him a few times. To me that is understandable and forgiveable. The man is first of all probably charged up on adrenaline from the chasing and second understandably outraged that somebody would put a baby in danger like that. I can understand it, and think I might have done the same thing. Third, we are only talking about a couple of hits. No broken teeth. No concussion. No broken bones. No blood, no foul.

Most of us probably don't want to be on camera for our entire workday and having people be armchair quarterbacks about everything we do. Especially not if they are gonna hold us to impossibly high standards.

[Raineyb]

45. I'm sorry, what part of this ramble is supposed to excuse the cop for assaulting

the guy he was chasing?

I'm glad that asshat lost his job. It's too bad that more often than not nothing happens to these bad cops.

:nopity:

[hfojvt]

47. no worries

I don't expect compassion or understanding from you. And there are certainly no magic words I can write to create them.

Ooh ee, ooh ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang

see? nothing.

[Raineyb]

48. Are you for real?

You expect compassion for an abusive cop? This whole weekend people have been telling stories of abuse at the hands of the police and you've done nothing but making excuses. You've made it obvious that nothing any of us say will make you feel a damn thing about those who are constantly abused by the system. But you expect compassion for the abuser? Are you fucking kidding me? Is this some kind of joke?

There really isn't enough words in the English language to express the disgust I am feeling right now.

Compassion for a cop who assaults people? I'll save my compassion for those who need it. The victims of this "good man."

Seriously you think that that assault was the only blemish on his record? Someone like that surely has other abuses in his history.

You're unbelievable!

Disgusting!

[seabeyond]

49. the guy only beat his wife cause he had a tough day kinda thing? n/t

[Raineyb]

50. That's what it sounds like.

And I'm sure that he'd rip someone a new one if that sentence came out of the mouth of a guy who was picked up for hitting his wife.

I can't still can believe what I read.

[hfojvt]

51. actually I told my own stories of 'abuse' too

somebody who runs from the cops, endangering the life of everybody on the road, and also of the baby in his own frigging truck, and you don't think he deserves to get his ass kicked? You think he is a victim? You are really saying that if your boyfriend did that with your kid that you would not kick his a$$?

I hope you are not typical of DU. Sympathy for criminals, and hatred for cops.

You imgaine that this cop has other issues in his past. All I am doing is looking at the one incident instead of imagining what happened in his past. Because I don't fault the guy for this incident, does not mean I excuse anything in his past, but neither you not I know that there is anything in his past. You can assume all you want and be completely confident of your assumptions, but they remain assumptions.

You are disgusted by my words, but I am disgusted by a guy who runs from the cops with a kid in his car. That apparently does not raise your umbrage one bit.

Or wait, because it involves a cop, the cop probably made the whole thing up. Planted the kid in the car to try to justify his assault.

We are apparently from different planets and so will never understand each other. On your planet, when a guy types something stupid on the internets, it is a total outrage. There is no measure for the disgut. Whereas a guy racing from the cops and crashing all while having an infant in his truck - no big deal.

[Raineyb]

52. You are unfortunately all too typical of those who worship cops

You think because someone deserves as ass kicking that the cops is in line to deliver it? Well he's not and if he doesn't understand that then he deserves to lose his job. You seem to be under the impression that some people should have to follow the law and others are allowed to do whatever the fuck they want. You know what people who think the law doesn't apply to them are called? Criminals. So your friend there just showed that he's no fucking better than the "thugs" he's supposed to go after.

As horrific as what the man who this cop beat on did there was no fucking excuse for what that cop did. So once again, I'm not wasting my time feeling sorry for some thug who can't control himself. Especially when said thug will commit his crimes under color of authority.

The more you keep talking the more disgusting you sound. Absolutely revolting. As per my last post there is not enough words in any language to describe how utterly disgusting I find you.

[hfojvt]

56. "When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law. Just a fight for survival."

Do you realize that you create your own disgust? Not out of anything I say, but out of the hate and ugliness in your own heart.

For example, I never said, nor implied that "some people should have to follow the law and others are allowed to do whatever the fuck they want."

That is something that you are imagining that I believe or implied. Perhaps because you know some people who seem to feel that way. Or maybe you see them on TV or the movies. So you think there are many people like Mr. Posner in the world.

"You know what people who think the law does not apply to them are called?"

I would call them human. We all have scoffed at some law. Taken some cookies when we were told not to. Driven faster than the speed limit (and without a seatbelt 'gasp'). Shot firecrackers when that is against city ordinance. And so on.

But why am I trying to reason with you when I am fairly sure that is a waste of time? You are determined to hate, hate, hate. And I am having to bite my lip to keep from quoting the best line ever from "Romy and Michelle'a High School Reunion". In the end it is certainly not going to help for us to exchange insults. I happen to like people like me, and you perhaps like people like you. So my first line was probably a bad idea, but what do you expect when you say "how utterly disgusting I find you" to somebody? Think of it as Newton's second law of hatred.

How about if we exchange cookie recipes?

1 cup sugar, 1 cup brown sugar, 1 cup shortening, 1 cup peanut butter, 3 medium eggs - mix those together. Then add a large dash of cinnamon and one of ginger (this is my substitute for 1 tsp vanilla) 1.5 tsp baking soda, .5 tsp salt and 2.5 cups of flour (actually I add flour until the dough is no longer sticky which probably takes about 3 cups). Then press into a cookie shape and dip a fork in sugar and make criss crosses on the top and bake at 325. (supposed to be 350, but I find that they burn unless you have a gas oven)

[Raineyb]

68. You clearly have problems comphrending what you say.

When you make excuses for police breaking the law you are in essence saying that the cops can do whatever the fuck they want. You absolutely implied it not once but twice. You are trying to reason with me? That's rich. It would take actual reason to reason with someone and you haven't used any reason at all. You make excuses for police brutality then get mad when I am disgusted with your stance. Well sorry buy your stance is disgusting. Too fucking bad if you don't like it.

And you have the nerve to say that my disgust with your hypocrisy is caused by me?

You are a revolting excuse for a human being. I'm done with you.

[lexanman]

57. Its not the cop's right

to kick anyones ass jerkoff. We have a system that has courts and checks and balances. The problem is you paint everyone as criminals deserving of whatever the cop decides to do to the person. Tazer him, he asked for it. Shoot a 13 year old in the back killing the kid, he asked for it. Kick his ass, he asked for it. Your blind eye to police abuse and condonement and encouragement of police abuse and criminal behavior sickens every person on this board. Even ones who say there are good and bad cops. Even ones who are wary of all cops. You are from the planet "kick his ass, cop"

[hfojvt]

58. speak for yourself please

You are not authorized to speak for every person on this board. Plus I never said the cop had the right. It was one example of a cop who went over the line. He saw the baby in the truck and he just lost it. That seems pretty understandable to me. He didn't really make a decision, more like reacted to an outrage. Second, the 'whatever' in this case is really not that severe. he did not 'kick the guy's a$$'. A couple of punches do not constitute an a$$-kicking. If the cop sat there and beat on the guy until he was too exhausted to do any more beating, then that would be a different story. If he has caused severe injuries to the other guy, then that would be another story. In the story that I actually told though, there was no serious damage. So you cannot legitimaely extrapolate from that story to one where a guy gets his teeth kicked in or his ribs broken. See, I don't believe in 'zero tolerance' policies. I rather doubt if anyone does when the zero tolerance is applied to themself or to a good friend or close relative.

[Occulus]

61. Yes, you did say that

somebody who runs from the cops, endangering the life of everybody on the road, and also of the baby in his own frigging truck, and you don't think he deserves to get his ass kicked? You think he is a victim? You are really saying that if your boyfriend did that with your kid that you would not kick his a$$?

I hope you are not typical of DU. Sympathy for criminals, and hatred for cops.

And now you're saying

he did not 'kick the guy's a$$'.

Which was it- did he, or didn't he?

It looks as though you're looking for ways such behavior can be excused, depending on context. Well, here's a clue, Sparky: it cannot be excused in any context.

That's what you are epically failing to understand.

[hfojvt]

63. so you support zero tolerance even for relatively minor infractions

Also, saying that he deserved to get his a$$ kicked is not the same thing as saying that he got his a$$ kicked.

I understand zero tolerance quite well, but I think its pretty intolerant and probably hypocritical. Just a guess that all of the people yelling for zero tolerance would not be willing to impose that same standard upon themself.

There's no inconsistency there. The guy deserved to get his a$$ kicked and he got hit a few times. He's the one who drew first blood and he got off pretty easy. He's the one I would expect people to be outraged at, but not if you demand perfection from cops I guess. Maybe I am telling the story wrong. What would be your position on Carl Lee? Free him, or fry him?

[Occulus]

64. A cop beating a suspect is not "relatively minor". It's the sort of thing

that gets the charges tossed.

"Also, saying that he deserved to get his a$$ kicked is not the same thing as saying that he got his a$$ kicked."

It is when you add punches. Even a single punch. If he didn't actually resist the arrest, any blows, kicks, etc., are prohibited.

I LOLed at this:

"The guy deserved to get his a$$ kicked and he got hit a few times."
Combine with the above "Also, saying that he deserved to get his a$$ kicked is not the same thing as saying that he got his a$$ kicked."

Let me spell it out for you: police are there to enforce laws; they are not there to pass judgment or to punish. Those actions are the sole province of the courts. Even following an arrest, nothing- not one damn thing, even that which the cop him/herself directly witnessed, can be considered sufficient evidence that immediate, on-the-spot punishment of any sort is appropriate, beyond a threat to the life or safety of the officer. The only legal option is arrest and confinement until such time as bail is paid or the suspect is otherwise released.

Police punching or otherwise abusing a suspect (or sodomizing them during a body search, or beating them with a telephone book, or any manner of extra abuse), no matter what they did, is not "relatively minor". As I said, and as has been upheld in more cases than I care to dig up, it is grounds to have the charges reduced or dismissed outright. I would support these same principles being applied to a child molestor or a serial killer. Yes, I would give the devil the benefit of the law, because I would not be able to stand in the wind that would blow were all the laws flat, as you seem to suggest they should be.

If you really want to punish criminals, rather than let them free on what you personally might call a 'technicality', you will hold police to the highest possible standard- which means not once, under any circumstances, dispensing "justice" without the benefit of judge and jury. Ultimately, it appears you don't believe in "innocent until proven guilty", because that means proof in a court of law rather than a street gutter, and you don't seem to be willing to wait for that, even in the most egregious of cases.

Zero tolerance for police brutality, under any and all circumstances?

YES.

[ThomCat]

66. "Sympathy for criminals, and hatred for cops."

There is your problem right there.

It's Sympathy for Citizens and Distrust of Authority. Citizens have rights, and those rights need to be respected. There needs to be a presumption of innocence from authority, and there needs to be restraints upon authority.

Too many people, yourself included, seem to think that authority always gets the benefit of the doubt rather than the citizens. Too many people here are more than willing to give up freedom to kowtow to authority, thinking that being nice and polite and always giving in will convince the authorities to be nice to you. But being nice and subservient does not prevent abuses of authority. It enables abuses of authority.

[seabeyond]

67. i have absolutely no sympathy for criminal. cop has to obey the law. or, the obvious,

he TOO is criminal. and guess what? i have absolutely no sympathy for a criminal

i mean

talk about duh

:hi:

[Evoman]

65. He should have been fired AND arrested.

You do the crime, you do the time.

Beating a guy is a crime. Even a "minor" punch is a crime. I don't give a shit how fucking mad you are.

If I'm working at a retail job, and some customer treats me like shit, and I grab him and punch him, I'm gonna get fired. I'm gonna be thrown in prison, or at least fined. Doesn't matter if I worked there 1 year or 30.

[H2O Man]

59. Good Cop/Bad Cop

There are two books with this title. One, by Rebecca Dartt, tells about the case that helped expose the NYS Troop C scandal. In it, one finds that the good cops that attempted to confront the snakes were subjected to the abuse of their supervisors.