Looking for Dialog on Race in America with Someone of Color

[theFrankFactor]

I want to engage in some dialogue with someone of color about what it means to be black in America today. I have my thoughts and feelings and I am willing to risk embarrassing myself in the pursuit of understanding.

This is a comment I made on another thread:

White guilt? Well why the fuck not? You strive create an underclass that gets executed if they "get any learnin'" and create a genetic "product" that's of "hardy stock", beat the shit out of them, forbid the slightest growth and participation in society... talk about having "issues". And then you agree on paper that maybe ya need to stop that shit. Then for the next 100 years... ya don't. That brings you to 1964... hmmm, and STILL we have Plantation owner wannabe's runnin' around with guns.

I know, it wasn't you and it wasn't me. Fair enough. But only the ignorant think "it's all over now."

It is basically my contention that slavery in essence created blowback. The devastation of families and the human spirit caused by it leaves lasting social and personal scars. I support affirmative action in part for those reasons. The racist behavior we see between blacks and whites is a result of the bed we (they, the slavery supporters) made so to speak.

All of us bring to society the scars of our upbringing, alcoholism, sexual abuse, emotional abuse etc. Many on the right seek to paint an entire race as genetically inferior in essence ignoring the facts concerning the history of the subjects of their racism.

Do I make any sense?

THIS IS A VIDEO I DID THAT TOUCHES ON THE TOPIC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaFxhcvSjyk

[rwheeler31]

1. I like blue.

[BlooInBloo]

2. (blush)

[JanMichael]

3. That's an assholish reply. nt

[theFrankFactor]

9. What Kind Of Fucking Response it That?

Use your words.

[JanMichael]

4. If this movie doesn't work then nothing will:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0484384/

[20score]

5. K&R

Good luck

[Karenina]

6. Frank, that gave me GOOSEBUMPS!!!

:blush: Please PM me.

[HopeOverFear]

85. Me too

that was awesome!

[theFrankFactor]

7. Well, This Appears to be a Waste of Time

[AspenRose]

8. No it's not....no it's not.

You're just experiencing the wall folks of color on DU experience on a regular basis.

Ever ask yourself whenever there's folks on Hardball talking about race, they're almost always white? That they don't seem to include people of color in on the dialogue?

That's kind of what it's like around here.

[theFrankFactor]

10. Well That's Fuckin Bullshit! All This "Liberal" Shit is What Then...

Sometimes I swear I can't believe the society I live in. The twenty-first century and homosexuality and race are STILL the stuff of fear and ignorance.

I'd tell any fuckin' white racist fuck this: If your fuckin' ass was black for a day you would likely be dead or in prison within twenty-four hours.

[Karenina]

12. Frank, we're also EXHAUSTED from recent events

Sotomayor, swimming while black, the Prez,the Prof and the asshole cop... It's been quite UGLY...

Do YOU think POTUS has ever been racially profiled? :evilgrin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6147579

[theFrankFactor]

15. LOL, I sure do!

[These Eyes]

18. You speak the truth!

I''m so tired I don't even have the strength to respond anymore. :)
I don't know if they really don't understand or just don't want to. Maybe we need to have a corporate therapy session.:shrug:

[Karenina]

20. They don't HAVE TO. Understanding US is NOT KEY to their survival.

And as long as they don't HAVE TO, they won't. Power concedes NOTHING.

[bobbolink]

21. Very, very well said. And its true for ALL prejudice.

"Power concedes NOTHING."

Yet, when the inevitable anger erupts, the predictable response is about "them" being "uppiity".

[M0rpheus]

26. "Exactly!!!"

:hi:

As you said to me ages ago...

They don't have to understand. There is no consequence to ignoring or dismissing the issue of race.
We do so at our own peril, however.

[Karenina]

34. M0rphekins!!!

:hi::loveya::hi:

[M0rpheus]

38. K!

It's good to see you working to make the world a better place, as usual!

You're one of my reasons for "un-cloaking" on these issues.
I'll admit to being tired of saying/thinking the same things over, and over again. But, we gain nothing by being quiet and being satisfied with the status quo. So, here you are... And here I am with ya, for an additional $.02.

:loveya:

[bobbolink]

40. Just as there is no consequence to ignoring poverty and homelessness.

All the same things about profiling that are being said about race apply just as much to poor and homeless people.

The difference is the lack of any support.

[Karenina]

43. BINGO! Skip made note of that

when he stated that blacks, people of colour AND POOR PEOPLE have no recourse. He KNEW when HIS HOMIE got there, it would all be OK and clearly noted who did not share in that privilege.

[bobbolink]

44. Thanks for sharing that with me! I didn't see that part...... would you have the article it was in

If he said that, I think I love him.

:loveya:

It gets awfully lonely being homeless......

Thanks again! :hi:

[Number23]

49. Bobbolink, this web site is lucky to have you and your perspective

Please don't ever forget that, no matter how many assholes you may come across here.

[bobbolink]

63. Thanks so much.....that means so much to me.

I was told by somebody here that I was "choosing to be a victim"-- somebody I had th0ught was a friend.

The superiority complexes here are truly amazing!

I cherish your healing words.

:hug:

[noiretextatique]

78. i said you were attempting to make me a victimizer

by claiming that i'd hurt you. i took offense to that. but, i do consider you a friend and an ally, and i would never hurt you.

[Karenina]

50. Here ya go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSBjU61drc0

I lived in my car, bobbolink. I told the story to a 60 minutes producer, showed her around SM and at the end of the day refused permission smelling their spin and assessing their story's worth to MY life. They were NOT INTERESTED in the big picture I saw at the time. The person they did feature LOST EVERYTHING SHE'D GAINED before allowing them to call attention to her.

[bobbolink]

57. thank you so very much! That does my heart good!

I'm trying to figure out a way I can save this, to listen to in the future when everything is getting to me. Just to know that ONE PERSON "gets it" means a lot to me!

Thank you for sharing your story on that! I recently experienced some more prejudice and the "progressives" here wanted me to tell it to the local rag. I said I couldn't do that without a lot more support than what I had, so they criticized me and said I was putting *THEM* in a no-win situation!!!

:wtf:

It helps to know that someone like you UNDERSTANDS!!!!

Thanks soooo much..... that is more healing for me than you know!

[Karenina]

59. Bobbolinkins!!!

:hug::loveya::hug:

[bobbolink]

64. Gratefully accepted!

:hug: :loveya: :hug:

[Fire1]

68. And just WHOM might the vast majority of 'poor' be?? n/t

[Karenina]

69. Who. They would be white.

Like the vast majority on welfare, if that's any measure. ;-)

[Fire1]

70. There may be 'slightly' more whites on welfare by only a few

percentage points due to the population ratio. However, the disparity in poverty is much greater for blacks and latinos.

http://www.ecineq.org/milano/WP/ECINEQ2008-96.pdf

[Karenina]

76. Ya think?

[Fire1]

81. The link is provided to show you that the majority poor in this

country are 'not' white. You are mistaken.

[Fire1]

82. The link is provided to show you that the majority poor in this

country are 'not' white. You are mistaken.

[Fire1]

71. 'Whom' is functioning in the objective case, therefore, correct.

[Karenina]

75. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Another CLASSIC "What's the RULE, anyway?" in English usage!!! :rofl: No prep+verb "to be"... The vast majority of poor would be they (who...) or
That is he. NOBODY TALKS LIKE THAT ANYMORE!!! :rofl: Remember Peter and Wendy's famous disagreement in "I Won't Grow Up?"

"Not me."
"NOT I."
"Not me."

Anyway, my linguist boss assures me I'm flogging a dead horse because, as shown in the above exchange, USAGE ALWAYS WINS.

GRAMMAR NAZIS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[AspenRose]

27. Aaand...that's pretty much it.

*nodding*

[Kind of Blue]

46. Wow! I think that's the most brilliant thing

I've heard in a long, long while. :applause:

[Hutzpa]

19. POTUS is still being profiled

just asked those birthers (hate to shine the light on them them though)

:evilgrin:

[Number23]

48. Exhausted is the exact word for it. Why so many don't even bother anymore.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

77. Actually, citing Hardball is a bad example

When Matthews brings on Eugene Robinson, Michelle Bernard, and Steven A. Smith (which is quite a bit as of late), his attitude is almost too patronizing to them about the issue of race as if that is their only field of expertise.

[JanMichael]

11. Did you read my reply?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0484384/

The movie above is not a waste of time at all.

[theFrankFactor]

13. I Did But...

I haven't had the time to seek it out and view it. I will. I appreciate it. I just get the feeling that something is amiss on this issue.

[theFrankFactor]

14. Slavery - It Matters

I wanted to ask an African American if it is in anyway degrading to address the affects of slavery and discrimination on the AA family unit and the far reaching affects we see today.

I tread lightly here because I have to admit my ignorance on this issue.

I will share my observations:

I saw a degree of racism in my own family. My mother and father were depression era poor whites. It was not to any high degree but present nonetheless.

I believe white Americans, particularly those with racist tendencies, are ignorant of the history of racism here in America. I don't think they appreciate the far reaching consequences of the dehumanization, humiliation and torture that went on for so long. It is further my personal contention that emotional and intellectual dishonesty is a requisite for right wing affiliation though it does infect the Left too.

Any "race" (especially one that can not be hidden) subjected to this treatment would be severely damaged. If a white person could honestly imagine what it would be like to be black even today, they would only begin to scratch the surface of the disparity in treatment within society.

The sensitive areas would be the areas that racists use to condemn AA's. The fatherless family, the exploitation of welfare, what is perceived as shiftlessness, laziness, the tendency toward immediate gratification, poor academic performance, poor use of language, gangs, objectification of women as examples.

From my perspective these issues, besides being present in ANY race are part of the blowback of the dehumanization of slavery and discrimination in the USA. These are socioeconomic issues. This seems obvious to the rational mind but racists strive to absolve themselves any responsibility present and past, and under the ridiculous cover of "personal responsibility" assign these problems to the actions of blacks themselves as if all else were equal.

It confounds me as to why the treatment of blacks during the slave era is not front and center in this discussion. We are talking about a disgustingly horrible practice that was legal until a little over one hundred years ago. Not to mention the continuation of lynchings and the terrorizing of blacks well into the 1960's and even the present.

How many generations are we talking about here? Since the 60's we're looking at two to three generations. Grandparents living in the 60's could conceivably have been born some twenty years before the turn of the century- 1885 +/-. The Civil War and the emancipation occurred in 1863. We are talking about an historically recent time period.

Contrary to the popular opinion of racists, the emancipation proclamation, much as the election of President Obama, did NOT end discriminatory and terrorist behavior against blacks.

Since my world is admittedly one of white relationships I don't know what the deeper sentiments of those who live it are.

I just want to get some feedback.

Thanks

[Karenina]

16. Let me offer analogy from my multi-EVERYTHING family

The grandchildren of some who escaped the Holocaust are the inheritors of a trauma that exists, in some cases, as though it happened yesterday. Who would have the unmitigated CHUTZPAH to tell those so affected to "just get over it? We're POST-NAZI now."? :evilgrin:

[bobbolink]

22. What it comes down to is accepting "The Other".

We, as a society, don't want to look at that.

In short, WE'RE THREATENED.

[Karenina]

24. There IS NO "OTHER" when it comes down to the REAL US vs THEM

The "THEM" are those who would FUCKING ENSLAVE US in a nanosecond. With their high-speed trades and takeover of the gubmint, THAT "THEM" might well succeed. And we US who don't GET IT YET are beyond "acting stupidly." :evilgrin:

[bobbolink]

25. You're right about that. I was talking about a different aspect of "other"

:hi:

[These Eyes]

17. Thanks for asking the question…

I appreciate your desire to better understand being black in America and have an intelligent conversation about it.

Yes, I strongly believe slavery does have an effect on attitudes in society today. Unfortunately, I have to run to a meeting but I would like to discuss this further. In the meantime, you might want to look up information on generational patterns -- how events/mindsets in a family shape generations to come. Off the top of my head I can't think of the black psychologist's name whose done extensive research in this area. When I get back this evening, I'll get her name for you. You may also want to read some of the writings of Jawanza Kunjufu. He's an educator and writes about the institutionalized racism in our educational system and gives insight on why so many of our young black men drop out and/or are disproportionately in special ed.

Again, thanks.

[Karenina]

23. Also Frank, are you familiar with Tim Wise and his writings?

I had the funniest exchange with him. I wrote him an anecdote about cultural bias on the SATs, recounting how on the way home the question came up, "Anybody know what a "regatta" is? Thought it was music or dance. Don't even remember what I chose!" I explained what it was. Karen Gibson, my LBAW nemesis said, "Now, HOW THE HELL are WE sposeta know THAT??? We're from Hollis, NOT the Hamptons!!!" :rofl:

He had used that example in a piece on "cultural bias" and told me he got SCORES of e-mails from highly agitated white kids SHOCKED, just SHOCKED that such things weren't "common knowledge."

Cue up: Frank Ricci :evilgrin:

[AspenRose]

29. Co-sign on Tim Wise

You should have him on your show sometime

[Raineyb]

36. I LOVE his work

Oddly enough it never seems to go over very well around here. Go figure.

[Karenina]

37. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

He's a RACE TRAITOR dontcha know??? Where's our curmudgeon, Bloo? Na, Bloooo, wo bist Duuuu denn???

[Number23]

52. Yeah, where the hell is BlooinBloo?? He's usually thick as bees up in topics like this!

[Karenina]

54. And we always get HONEY!!!

Even tho' Bloo seems to some to be all vinegar! ;-)

[Number23]

56. lol Bloo has more sistas swooning over him than ANYBODY else on DU

He's like DU's own version of Taye Diggs, except white (or so he says). :rofl:

[Raineyb]

65. LOL

Poor Bloo, he's probably exhausted from dealing with the idiots defending the cops from the uppity Prof. Gates. I know I am.

[Fire1]

73. I think he's an honorary brother. lol! n/t

[bobbolink]

45. EXCELLENT example!

...................

........................psst...............

(what's a regatta?)

:rofl:

[Karenina]

55. From Wiki, cuz I know if I just cite my personal ref, well... YOU KNOW! ;-)

A regatta is a term used to describe either a boat race, or series of boat races. Although the term typically describes racing events of unpowered water craft, some powerboat race series are also called regattas. Most commonly, a regatta is either a series of rowing, sailing, gondola races or yacht racing. A regatta often includes social and promotional activities which surround the racing event, and except in the case of boat type (or "class") championships, is usually named for the town or venue where the event takes place

Although regatta are typically amateur competitions, they are usually very highly organized, formally structured events, with complex rules precisely describing the schedule and procedures of the event. Regattas may be organized as championships for a particular area or type of boat, but are often held just for the joy of competition, camaraderie, and general promotion of the sport. Frequently sailing racing events are held for single class, or for one particular model sailboat such as the Islander 36. Regattas may be hosted by a yacht club, sailing association, town or school as in the case of Interscholastic Sailing Association (high school) regattas or Intercollegiate Sailing Association (college) regattas.

My 8th grade Class Prez, who wrote in my book, "To Karenina, who absent certain handicaps would be the most popular girl in this school" took me out on The Bay, taught me to crew and was just all-in-all a GREAT GUY!!

[Number23]

51. Girl, the SAT is so full of those types of WELL-DOCUMENTED cultural biases.

All the book learnin' in the world won't prepare you for the white, upper-middle class exams aka the SAT.

[Karenina]

58. You and I know it.

I scored quite high as did my sibs because WE UNDERSTOOD THEM and what THEY thought was important. WE HAD TO in order to advance.

[M0rpheus]

32. What I often see here,

is any attempt to bring up the past, such as the recent "apology for slavery" thread, is put down with some variation of "my family didn't {whatever}, so why should I care?". It's as if none of it counts. As if the past had no role in shaping what we feel.

It confounds me as to why the treatment of blacks during the slave era is not front and center in this discussion. We are talking about a disgustingly horrible practice that was legal until a little over one hundred years ago. Not to mention the continuation of lynchings and the terrorizing of blacks well into the 1960's and even the present.

In a rational face to face, this might lead to an enlightening conversation.
On the anonymous internetz, however people feel free to shut down conversation and say things that they wouldn't say if we were face to face.

Some who don't have a reason to fear what's done under the color of authority, don't see a reason to try to understand, because it doesn't affect them in the least.

[H2O Man]

28. What color?

[AspenRose]

30. Hey you

:hi: Glad to see you ducking in

[H2O Man]

33. Thank you.

I'm hoping to post an OP or two this week.

[KittyWampus]

31. All of us bring baggage/scars but all of us possess the capacity for objectivity and choice making

So in talking about how people deal with a legacy of any kind one has to consider to what extent a person is willing to act in their own behalf.

I fully support helping others help themselves. But implicit in that statement is the precondition that individuals WANT to help themselves.

Unfortunately, many who come from a legacy touched by slavery and its aftermath have a value system that doesn't appreciate things like education.

Oddly, that includes both blacks and whites. How many whites from the South de-value education and look at educated types as "elites" to be hated?

[theFrankFactor]

41. True - That's a Socioeconomic trait.

It's not hard for me to imagine that fear of what looks like the system that created the despair might be held in suspicion. There are no simple (pardon the pun) black and white solutions. Part and parcel of being dehumanized, devalued, and held in suspicion often comes many personal and ethical flaws.

The older I get the clearer it is to me that basic human emotions rule. Greed is a virus that is an equal opportunity infector. Clearly as one who rejects racism, I imagine if the tables were turned, I trust a predominantly black power structure would stand just as much chance of being guilty of exploitation as white.

What I find troubling is that so many are moral and ethical cowards.

[Tim01]

53. "The older I get the clearer it is to me that basic human emotions rule."

And there it is.
Humans are more often driven by emotion than they are by logic. It is everywhere.

[Karenina]

60. And you would once again, be correct.

Do I dare bring up PATRIARCHIAL systems? :evilgrin:

[Raineyb]

35. This is a very thoughtful OP

And I will have to come back so I can give an equally thoughtful reply. But I wanted to at least thank you for posting it so you know that I read and appreciated it and to make sure I rec and give it a kick.

I have often lamented about how we do not discuss race or racism on this board. Of course I was called a liar for saying so and in this person's view I guess that statement would be construed as a lie. We do not as a whole discuss race or racism on this board at all. We'll have several posts expressing outrage at a specific incident but we don't discuss the insidious nature of the institutional racism that is ingrained in this country and without the deeper discussion of institutional racism it's not really an honest discussion so this OP is quite the refreshing change of pace.

[bobbolink]

39. Some good thoughts in this.... Suspicions that still divide us

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6155370&mesg_id=6155370

[theFrankFactor]

42. I Was Not Familiar with Tim Wise

... a cursory viewing has piqued my interest. I'm anxious to investigate further.

[Karenina]

61. Hop to it, dude!!!

:bounce: We SO NEED you to get up to speed and help us out with this shit. :evilgrin:

[Number23]

47. Fan F*CKING tastic

That's what I have to say to your OP. :)

Even in all its brevity, your highlighted paragraph shows more knowledge and understanding of the screwed up institution that is race in this country than I've seen from half of DU. Very nicely done.

Happy to rec

[Karenina]

62. Psst... Do your official invite thangy!

I think he's a finey!!! ;-)

[Number23]

66. He's definitely a keeper. But he ain't got no donor star!

[Karenina]

67. Tell him about it!!!

:hide:

[vaberella]

72. It's not just the "slavery supporters."

You need to realize we're in a day and age in which prejudice is institutionalized. It's part of the system. So it's not just a "slavery supporters" thing it's evolved into an establishment thing and this is the fundamental problem. Added to that, the main problem with everything that is set forth to "help" or "rectify" the situation in-effect furthers the racist tension in our society.

When you have powerful people or I should say people in places of power spewing racist ideology you have a problem, and more so when they are the ones who are creating the policies and/or pushing it. For example during the bank bailout scandal Boehner went on national television and stated that if the economy should collapse it will be because Jews took the day off to celebrate Yom Kippur I believe. Then you have people like Bachmann in the congress stating that Blacks and minorities are the cause for the economic collapse and found documented, researched supporting evidence. It's bogus but there are people in the establishment that are still propagandizing the same shite and building the same rifts.

Whites are the first to say, "not everything is racist." And completely disregard the shit Blacks have gone through where things directly relate to what has caused us trauma in the past. Some Blacks do the same and they are touted as "supporting evidence" for many Whites. And all of these people are part of the establishment. Now it's not about "slave supporters" it's about supporting the norm and the norm is Whites on top and everyone else on the bottom, or at least the bare minimum to keep them quiet.

In any event, good post...edited to provide that point.

[Fire1]

74. Well stated, Vaberella. n/t

[noiretextatique]

79. yes, you make a lot of sense

because america has never dealt with slavery. it's never admitted its wrong-doing to slaves or their descendants who lived with 100 years of american apartheid, aka, jim crow. nor has it faced the facts of institutionalized racism that still impacts people today. the general attitude has been: ooops...sorry about all that folks, but we can't pay reparations because white people are too racist. that's why former slaves didn't get reparations either. and sorry about that race riot and theft of property in tulsa folks, but the LIVING victims won't get a dime or their property back. but hey...let's erect a memorial to racist theft and murder...but we can't pay the LIVING victims any money directly.
HYPOCRISY and DENIAL, thy name is america.

one last thing, regarding the gates incident, it struck me that some people here were advocating that black people, when confronted by the police, need to act like black people had to act towards all white people during jim crow and slavery: cower and defer. do you know how insulting it is for white people to "advise" black people to cower and defer to this most glaring symbol of white supremacy? police were the enforcers of white supremacy in the south and elsewhere. police were participants in racist violence, and they did little to assist the victims of it.

more later.

[LeftHander]

80. I'll ask my partner tonight.

He is black.

I'll say

"Someone wants to know what it is like to be black in America...so...how is it?"

I'll get back to you with his answer.

:eyes:

[theFrankFactor]

83. What does that mean?

[ismnotwasm]

84. "White guilt"

To me has always been code for "Don't take responsibility for your own white entitlement", since "guilt" implies a type of negative emotion, one faily easily soothed away or ignored. Call it luxury guilt, maybe.

I'm white, and I know you asked for other input, but I did want to say that. Whites *are* responsible for recognizing and addressing white entitlement, what it is and what it means and what we can do about it.