Have you noticed a suspicious or embarassed silence amongst your friends regarding work?

[Tab]

I have a small network of friends, a larger network of contacts. Asking about work, though, gets s suspicious (or, perhaps, embarassed) silence or an admission that they've got nothing and are trying to keep from going broke.

My friends are in the high-tech industry and we all used to make gobs of money - not "super-rich" money, but in the six digits per year easily. Now we're looking for work as part-time librarians, cheapo consultants, stuff that pays a tenth of what we used to get.

This is not meant to sound as whining (although some of it is) but it's scary when it's not just you, but everyone in your industry.

Extrapolate that out into other industries - automotive manufacture, automotive sales, real estate, financial services, etc.

Wal-Mart must be dizzy with the pickin's. For the rest of us, it's more nausea and vertigo.

[Liberal_in_LA]

1. Americans consider work/career as a big part of our identity. We can feel shame

when underemployed or unemployed.

[bertman]

51. Not to mention, major ANXIETY about how to pay for things like mortgages, food,

health insurance, car payments, gas, credit card bills, school supplies and clothing for the kids, internet access, etc. etc. And then there's the ANGER born of frustration with our "democratic" form of government that allows the richest of the rich to steal EVERYTHING from their serfs WITH IMPUNITY. And, lest we forget, APPREHENSION that all of this shit is just going to get worse.

[fizzgig]

2. i don't talk about work much because i'm ashamed it's all i could get right now

i've gone from a job in my field (journalism) that allowed me to live comfortably enough to living on unemployment to trying to stretch out the unemployment with a job that i feel too humiliated by to even talk about. my income now is about half of what i made before and that is embarrassing to admit that, even with my degree and experience, i can't get a real job.

[hfojvt]

4. bah. I have a master's degree and work as a part-time janitor

Beat that.

"There ain't no shame in being poor."

"But there might as well be." Kin Hubbard


"Nobody can make you feel ashamed without your consent." Eleanor Rigby

[fizzgig]

17. this isn't about one upsmanship

the past 16 months have been devastating to me emotionally, financially, mentally and physically and my pain is my pain.

go belittle someone's pain elsewhere.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Hugs, hang in there...

some of us do get it.

[hfojvt]

26. the past 19 years have not been a laugh fest for me either

and neither was graduate school. It's not about belittling somebody's pain. First, it's that you have fallen to where I have always been for the last decade. How do you think I felt in the late 1990s when the M$M was all "woohoo, record low unemployment, permanent prosperity. We are all rich.' and nobody really cared about the losers who were stuck in temp jobs. And actually that temp job paid more than I am making right now. But it is not really so bad down here. The water's cold, but you get used to it after a while.

Second, your attitude should change. There is nothing inherently shameful about physical labour or low paying jobs or unemployment. It is bad enough being poor, I refuse to accept any shame that goes with it. Although just tonight I was thinking about the movie 'The Kid' and how my younger self would have reacted to the idea of being a janitor in the future. I think there is much more to life than work so it's not the end of the world if I don't have a high status job. Although maybe I will skip my 30 year reunion next year.

Third, about your attitude. It seems to me that the scorn and derision that you are heaping upon yourself because of your current job will turn into the scorn and derision that you will heap on me when you get a better job. Heck, if you won't spare yourself, why would you spare me? You are feeling pain now partly because of the lack of respect you have for people doing low wage menial jobs. Hey, I am almost 50 years old and the only reason I am not bothered about my circumstances is because I resigned myself to my inability to change them.

[Rebubula]

44. Eleanor Rigby???

I thought that she was just wore a face that she keeps in the jar by the door...

Or perhaps you meant Roosevelt?

[vanbean]

85. Right, and it was "inferior".

[Lorien]

77. And yet I keep hearing those on the Right say "We can't have the rich paying

more in taxes so that the poor get health care, because then the poor will have no incentive to work". :grr: What they fail to notice is that the poor ARE WORKING FUCKING HARD just to meet basic needs. When I made six figures I could afford to take a month or two off every year. Nowadays I work every day of the week trying to find a job, or doing any small job I can find to pay a few bills. Poverty is exhausting and slowly destroys your soul. After a while life itself hardly seems worth it. Screw those who think that any of us CHOOSE to be poor!

[Grinchie]

94. Debt is more devastating than Poverty

Life is really simple. You need Food, Water, Air and Shelter and a way to keep clean. That's it.

The Corporation has worked very hard to separate mankind from the NAtural Laws of the Earth that apply to all the other animals. For christ sakes, if they can convinve people to by clothing for their pet dog's you know that mankind is out of whack.

Secondly, pet's in General are just another way to extract more money from people, while distracting them from noticing the all the wild animals are dying off in vast numbers. I no longer feed the Big Corporations that supply food of dubious quality and safety to Animals that serve now purpose other than diverting lonely people into maintaining their own lonlieness and despair. Try paying attention to the birds, bees and insects that coinhabit the earth. Every creature is my pet now. I treat every one of them with respect, and they reward me with a connection once in a while. You just need to pay attention to them, that's all.

As for Poverty, my Mom constantly reminded us that she could make a home as long as she had Three Stones. She proved it on may occasions, when we were rich and when we were poor. It didn't matter. Life goes on. She would mention that you'd have to be insane to not have enough to eat in America, simply because of the bounty of the land. Fruit trees everywhere, crops rotting in the fieds, etc.. It's true, if it came down to it, I could find a meal by simply foraging in backyards of foreclosed homes.

But the Corporations have been chipping away at this backyard bounty for year after year. They promote the myth that Fruit tree's are dirty, and draw vermin and other such nonsense. That only demonstrates the Importance of the product! Just imagine if you had a fruit tree and nobody wanted to eat the fruit!

Alternatively, you'll never see the comparison of "Enriched" White Flour to Fresh ground whole wheat. Leave both out in the open and hardly a single bug will consume the "Enriched" White Flour, while the Fresh Ground Wheat will feed colonies of insects, with the resultant production of more life. Listen to the bugs. They know what nutritious food is, and it's not "Enriched" White Flour. Plus, does anyone ask what it's "Enriched" with, or why?

In closing, one has to ask "Why we work so Fucking Hard", considering that the Economy is now exposed as a total and complete fraud. It's easy to cut back on the things "We take for Granted" which are really luxuries. They force us into Owning a car, along with all the anciliary liabilities. They keep us in fear regarding health, when we are the ones that actully control our own health barring accidental injury. They force us into a system designed to complicate our lives so much that we are unable to take the time to actually think about our actions.

It is up to us to stop playing the game as much as we do, and to actually cause their system of exploitation to collapse under its own weight. Let them bear the cost of ownership, and see how they feel about it. Withdraw the the system. That means shunning Corporate controlled Big Agriculture, along with their GMO food they feed to us without our knowledge. Buy organic and support the local farmer. They are hurting to, but at least you are paying them for their labor, and not getting a gould deal payed for with subsidies payed for with money conjured out of thin air.

[Lorien]

132. Debt is a part of poverty for most in America today

and you are preaching to the choir regarding food nutrition and safety. But try being saddled with tens of thousands in medical debt. Debt that came about when you HAD INSURANCE. And no, I didn't get sick by eating non organic foods (I have to eat non processed organic food-I have fibromyalgia). I had a genetic issue with my vascular system that was life threatening. It cost me all the savings I had and put me into debt-apparently for life.Sometimes you need more than Food, Water, Air and Shelter and a way to keep clean. You need medical services. You also need that computer that you are typing on if you run a small business out of your home as I do (did) and electricity to run it. Modern life and modern jobs require a bit more than mud huts and water.

[dog_lovin_dem]

100. Don't know if I can beat

it, but I'm at least even! I have a master's and am currently working part-time as a caregiver for my brother-in-law who has a physical disability. I'm not ashamed of what I do, but the pay could definitely be better.

[DailyGrind51]

124. Two Masters and working as a T.A. for health insurance!

[Skittles]

27. fizzgig

don't let them take your dignity - no matter how bad the job is, do the best work you can and hold your head high - we all know who should be ashamed and it DAMN sure isn't us

[jotsy]

88. You have absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about!

You didn't fail, the deck got stacked against you and none of us have been treated fairly in way too long.

While I feel your pain, I want you to know how much I think young journalists need someone like you. My middle child, a recent high school graduate, learned nothing but how to facilitate media being an echo of authoritarian talking points. As someone who is trained in that field, myself, I find that approach to delivering valid and valuable news pretty offensive.

If there's a community or progressive radio station in your town, volunteering in the newsroom can help put you in a better position to do some networking. Or you could try calling your local parks department and see about teaching community classes.

Once during a really lost moment in my life, a counselor suggested I was in need of some love and belonging, which I found at my own community radio station. My point is, if I'm not being too intrusive, that what I think hits us the hardest is the idea that there is no value in us if we're not economically viable.

Lose your patience, lose your cool, but hang on to your hope, we all need as much of that as we can muster in these tellingly turbulent times.

Best of Luck

:hug:

[DavidDvorkin]

3. I'll tell anyone who asks me

That I had a high-paying IT job till I was laid off a couple of months ago and that it's very much an employer's market right now.

[K Gardner]

5. I was shocked to find out at work last night how many of my fellow RNs, most who make

comparatively good wages and work a lot of overtime hours, are using or thinking of using consumer debt counseling companies because the interest rates on what few cards they might have used in the past have gone through the roof and they see no hope of ever getting out of debt now. So even for those who have jobs, the "climate" is getting scary.

[Horse with no Name]

78. I've been kind of looking around lately

and hospitals that have had notoriously high turnover rates in the past (ie Parkland in Dallas) only have a handful of job openings.
Now I don't know if it is because they are not filling open positions by attrition or if people are hanging on to what they have and not leaving, but the trend is quite disturbing. It has been this way for the last 6 months.

[GoesTo11]

6. If only

When times are good, I don't want to hear about everyone's work. I wish we had the skill to have rich conversations without asking "what do you DO?"

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. ... or worse, "what ARE you?"

I learned long ago to seperate what I do from what I am. It was a good thing too, because "nothing" is not a good self-image.

[femrap]

72. I answer....

"I do quite well, thank you." I hate that WORK defines us....but that is how TPTB have planned it. They wanted WORK to be the center of people's lives and that crap about 'family values' was just to make people, women in particular, feel very guilty.

Or "I do a lot."

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AnneD]

8. I fear more folks are becoming as desperate as you describe....

One thing that never got coverage during the Depression was that civil unrest was increasing and that FDR essentially save his own class from themselves. This top 5% need to be aware that they can end up like the King of France and Marie Antoinette. We tried the election route and we seem to be going no where. Revolution is not too far away.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deja Q]

15. what makes you think that is what will happen?

You can look forward to whatever hell you want your future to be. That's not the cowardly future I want, so I will work to better myself for my future.

Have fun in the streets.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AnneD]

97. A multitude of reasons cause me to have my views.....

you have not studied history. The US has always been a place of rebellion from the American revolution to Haymarket square to coal miners strikes to Kent State. Many people have lost jobs and have no resources or dwindling resources for even the basics. They have had the rug pulled out from under them. Desperate people will do desperate things. To assume you are above the fray because you are 'American', 'superior' or 'smarter' is fool hardy and arrogant. That is how they got 6 million people to walk into gas ovens.

Order breaks down . Chaos, whether man made or due to natural disaster, happens. You had better hope there are people in the streets protesting because that has been the only thing that has brought about beneficial change. We have tried the ballot and the only ones that continue to benefit is Wall Street.

I fear your attitude because because it is one of selfishness and lack of caring for the democracy you were given.. If the streets remain quiet, it is because people are too intimidated to stand up for their rightful due and we are in a fascist country.

Democracy is messy, but it is the best shot we have at an equitable share of resources.

[followthemoney]

20. It took about five or six revolutions before France...

accepted their citizens as partners in government. No one in France is called un-French for thinking their government needs to get tossed. We need to catch up with France to where, when the U.S. majority wants health care they are not denied and called un-American socialist scum.

America has a capitalist carrot and stick government. Too much carrot for the wealthy and too much stick for the workers for my taste. Time to end the capitalist strike and lockout of the work force.

Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity!

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[followthemoney]

61. I don't think there will be any new organization until...

individuals see the system for what it is and react to it on their own initiative in an individual disorganized fashion. Organization must come from the ground up. It must come from the natural organization of active disorganized individuals who recognize each other for being in opposition to a common enemy who poses as our leadership.

A disordered breakaway from present organizations must occur before a new reorganization can begin.

[Subdivisions]

67. Who is that whose messages are being deleted? n/t

[comtec]

112. he was advocating open rebellion

like violent, bloody etc.
kind of sad really, and in completely violation of TOS here.
I can't blame him.
the abuse we have to put up with from our overlords and masters is enough to make anyone turn violent, either literally or just in their heart, on a board in the internets, anonymously.
life is hard enough, but sometimes, it can break the mightiest of spirits.

anyway, I'm sorry to see his posts removed, but I understand why.

sedition, even if to blow off steam, is still a very serious crime :(

I just wish that free republic and places like that played by the same rules the rest of us, civilized people play by. this country might be in a better condition =\

[Jackpine Radical]

55. The best line in Sicko was the one to the effect that

in the US, the people are afraid of the government,
while in France, the government is afraid of the people.

Things have sure changed since Tocqueville.

[followthemoney]

62. Partnership in government means that fear is a two way street.

Credible threat is a means of communication. Lacking fear of consequences, the great compliant public is too easily disregarded by the powerful.

[natrat]

28. we have no FDR, just some psychopathic shadow government itching for a fight

[tomreedtoon]

35. Who's shadow government? The right wing?

The right wing doesn't believe in violent revolution. Their fringe brothers do, but to the National Republican Committee they're simply comedians and clowns that entertain the low-intelligence supporters.

There are no revolutionaries on the left. Look at how little anybody gets angry here on DU...angry as in threatening to fight. Unions are cowards, unwilling to strike or burn down factories. Ted Kennedy is dying, after a career of playing the system and making a fortune (and getting lots of poon).

If you know of anybody who has a consistent philosophy and really has an intention of toppling government - besides Cheney and company - please let us all know who it is.

[natrat]

56. i percieve the relentless push by corporations to screw citizens and the environment as psychopathic

they don't stop, nothing is ever enough and they own our government. I guess they lurk in the shaddows in washington. Eventually,at this rate at least, this will get bad enough to cause a fight.

[wolfgangmo]

45. Are you suggesting that ...

Some people just pick a local, rich, exploitive asshole and take him/her out for a "walk in the woods?"

Or are you more of a whip up the crowds and let them burn 'em at the stake kind of gal?

[femrap]

74. Hey, what were those

wooden shackles called...the ones in the public square where they stuck the head and arms in while the perp was standing?

I think those should make a comeback...people could walk by and say anything they wanted. No violence...just humiliation and ridicule.

Put the CEOs of Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citicorp, etc. Round up the banksters...of course there are even wealthier folks behind them. How about a Rothschild in one of those???

[Sensible321]

53. Its not the top 5%, its the top fraction of 1%

The 1% line is around $330K/yr. Take a look at this graph:
http://www.lcurve.org/
Click 'Zoom In' until you can see the stack of $100 bills at the feet of the 'median' family - then click Zoom Out' until you can see the top of the red line (a stack of $100 bills 30 miles high). The caption to the right adds to one's perspective on income disparity.

In my view, talk of taxing "over $250K" (for health insurance or other) misses the point and gives fuel to resentment of the upper middle-class; people earning that are relatively productive relative to their wealth, unlike the super-rich. A very large increase in the tax-rate above, say, $10-Million/year would be much more appropriate and politically viable. But, of course, the people in that tax bracket own the political system so...

[Jackpine Radical]

57. That's why Obama was smart to shift the discussion to taxing those

who earn over a million.

("Earn" of course is not the right word here.)

[Sensible321]

66. Yes, I liked that idea until ...

... the healthcare plan was unveiled. Instead of simply adding the plan as a payroll deduction that kicks in above the 150% of poverty-level with a steep %-increase above 1-Million, we see a small % increase above 250K and American employers being made less competitive worldwide by putting the burden of individual's healthcare on their shoulders. Let those who want private deduct what they pay from their taxes and the rest be automatically covered under a public plan. If we want our jobs back, this would be a good start (with a labor-cost neutralizing tariff being critical as well).

The "required" (read 'you will pay our corporate friends') bit adds to the irony - similar to mandated auto-insurance (and no public plan) with police 'enforcers' working for the thugs.

For that matter, SSI taxes also need to be removed below 150% of poverty-level, de-capped, and graduated. Ya gotta love having to pay the IRS 15% of the <$2K one makes on self employed side-jobs when one's Adjusted Gross Income is negative for the year.

Also, I'm with you on the definition of 'earn' - when it gets to that level we are speaking of 'winnings' - context 'casino'.

[Grinchie]

95. While at the same time Appointing Monsanto insiders and Continuing Military Contractors.

Obama is the DLC Clinton Hillbilly Hoedown. Thats the only Continuity of Government that is actually supported.

[femrap]

73. Yep....

Some of TPTB have been opposed to this excessive Greed because they know civil unrest can result.

I fear things will get worse before they get better...we are witnessing The Decline of the American Empire.

[Naturyl]

23. Never be ashamed of unemployment.

Not working does not equal worthlessness. If you buy into that, what kind of a message are you sending to millions of poor, non-working Americans?

[tomreedtoon]

32. Not working DOES equal worthlessness.

Oh, I'm doing work for other people...just work that people can't pay for. They keep hoping someone will see my worth and hire me. I smile, but I know that ain't gonna happen in America.

No matter what a wonderful person you may be, no matter how much your heart bleeds, no matter how much you sacrifice for anyone else...it isn't worth a damn if you can't pay your rent and bills. Unless someone recognizes your worth and your work and PAYS you for it, that work is worthless.

My point is that my former employer, and everyone who has rejected my resumes and applications, has said that I am worthless. I deny this, and when/if I get a job I will feel different. But as of right now, I AM worthless.

And please don't say something stupid like "to God there is no zero," because God is on the side of the Republicans and the rich. Take that Crystal Cathedral nonsense and peddle it elsewhere.

ON EDIT: That work I do for other people is for friends who have fewer skills than I do. Much of my money from my job went to buying things to help make these people live better. Now I can't afford to do very much for them, they are hurting, and I hate myself for failing to help them.

Helping others is good for the soul. But that depends on you having the money to help others. Like it or not, your paycheck is the measure of your value in the world, and if you have nothing, you are nothing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. Strongly disagree. My labor may have little worth, but I do not. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

84. the idea that helping others is good for the soul is the flip side of the belief

that one is nothing w/o a paycheck. how do you think your friends feel always being on the "helped" end? and why don't you relish being in a position to have someone help you, so they can do good for their souls?

no, "help" is humiliating unless one is or will be in a position to reciprocate. and though it's true in point of fact that we often treat each other like we're worthless w/o a paycheck, it's not the case in material point of fact.

[tomreedtoon]

105. Cute concept, but you don't understand.

They need help because they can't help themselves. They are the biggest losers of society. They need help desperately and I'm the only one willing to supply it...if I can afford to.

Yes, they feel bad about not being able to reciprocate, but you don't expect a man without legs to tapdance in gratitude, do you? These people are that crippled, emotionally if not physically.

I'm used to helping people without any gratitude. Often without any recognition that I did a good deed. Just because the rest of the world is full of ungrateful, greedy bastards doesn't mean I have to be. The people I count as friends, at least, acknowledge that I inconvenienced myself for them.

[Naturyl]

101. Wow, you are really letting them make you feel that way?

Sorry to hear it.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider letting the skewed values of this culture impact my self-worth negatively. That's why even though, according to your view, I am "nothing" and "worthless," it doesn't bother me.

I wish you the best of luck. You're going to need it if you are allowing this work-worshipping, business-worshipping, money-worshipping culture to reduce your self-worth to zero.

[tomreedtoon]

104. It's a series of basic facts.

I like helping people. I can't help people without money above and beyond my own rent, utilities and food. If I can't help people, I feel bad.

I realize all that psychological hogwash about self esteem not being related to job or work or pay, but in the end, you need a job in order to be useful to society and yourself. That's a fact of reality, even if Dr. Phil and Deepfried Oprah don't recognize it.

[Naturyl]

106. No, it's not a "fact of reality."

It's your opinion - and it's an opinion shaped by a culture which bases personal worth on economic and employment status.

I consider myself quite useful to myself and society, and I haven't had a job in ten years. If you want to help people, then get busy helping them. You have a computer and internet connection. There are tons of ways to help people online. Write something to advocate for progressive values. Write something to draw attention to an unjust situation. Do whatever you want, but don't sit around trying to convince your fellow unemployed DUers that they are useless and worthless simply because they are unemployed. If you insist on pushing that view, our discussion is going to take a different tone, because people who are already under all kinds of stress don't need to read that kind of thing. I can take it myself, but not everyone here has had 10 long years of experience opposing the idea that unemployment equals worthlessness.

[tomreedtoon]

108. The point is to get people employed.

I do not want to see a nation with one percent having all the money and the rest of us in abject serfdom. The only way to affect that is to get us JOBS and MONEY.

And at this point, it will fall two ways. Either the Federal Government will have the intelligence to create jobs, as it did in the First Great Depression.

Or we peons will get angry and start killing Wall Street bastards, our former bosses and anybody else who denies us dignity and money.

I didn't like the latter solution, but the more my savings dwindle and my life looks bleaker, it starts looking better and better. And it will to the rest of us serfs.

[Naturyl]

111. That's fine. If people want jobs they should certainly be there for them.

I'm all in favor of creating jobs for those who want and need them. Every American who wants employment ought to have it.

I'm just opposed to the idea that those of us who are unemployed due to any number of factors should be viewed as lesser human beings.

[tomreedtoon]

117. Like it or not, that's how jobless people are percieved.

It doesn't matter that these people did not choose to lose their jobs. We are seen as being unworthy; if we were so good why were we thrown into the dumpster?

And when you tell them that it's the economy, or a psychotic boss, it sounds like you're trying to shift the blame away from yourself.

That's the mindset of Americans. You can complain that it's wrong, and unfair, and untrue, and you can put PSA's on television saying "Have compassion for the jobless," but you won't change it, any more than you can instantly make people accept black Americans or gays with a slogan.

(By the way, even if you do make PSA's, you'll never get TV stations to run them. I worked in TV for three decades. TV stations and networks now NEVER run PSA's. They have no need to serve the public interest, thanks to the deregulation brought about by Saint Ronnie, the bastard.)

[redqueen]

59. No one should be ashamed. You are not your job.

People have value beyond the $$$$ they can earn.

It saddens me greatly that this isn't common knowledge.

[Naturyl]

102. Yeah, it's really insane how this culture denies something so basic.

One's economic value is not equal to one's overall worth as a human being. People have inherent value. That value is not erased because one is not economically productive. There are other forms of value and productivity, and in my opinion, some of them are way more important than a paycheck.

[tomreedtoon]

118. Not in this country, redqueen. Where have you been?

You got fired. Twenty people at your job didn't. In the minds of everyone, YOU were the problem, since everyone else kept their jobs.

Like it or not, this is how the world works. And all the flower-power thinking won't change how you are perceived by the world.

[redqueen]

125. So you believe that we should let other people's perceptions of us determine our self worth?

Seriously?

[lunatica]

9. University of California/Berkeley has just told us a huge number of us are being laid off

Units who do the administrative work for research departments (lots and lots of those in UC from Stem cell research and all the other sciences to engineering, nano technology, etc.) are all going away forever. Those jobs will now be under one consolidated unit to take care of all that. Gone are the managers, the hr people, the admin assistants, the Financial Analysts, Directors, all the staff. They will create a few jobs for the centralized unit to which we can all apply for.

We'll get our lay off letters on August 31 and we'll have 60 days notice. On the same day we get our letters the job openings will be posted (only for UC laid off employees can apply) for 2 weeks. There will be no way to find work on the campus because all jobs have been frozen and all hiring is also frozen.

Meantime the rest of the departments are all told they must cut their costs by whatever percentage they're told to cut, and on top of that everyone is mandated furlough days off for the next 12 months. The issue will be revisited again then.

And with that perfect timing that bad news has of piling more pain on I received a letter from my mortgage company telling me that the value of my condo doesn't support the equity line of credit I have so they are freezing all activity on that too. I am blocked from writing any checks on my own line of equity. But they informed me I can rest assured that I will get a bill to pay what I've borrowed up to now.

[followthemoney]

18. Maybe Berkeley can fire John Yoo.

I applied for his job a while back. I understand the constitution better than Yoo does. In my application letter I stated that "I can do do anything better than Yoo."

[femrap]

76. Good One!!!

How did he ever get hired at Berkeley???

[Jackpine Radical]

96. Yoo Who?

[Grinchie]

130. Well if that doesn't beat the heck out of a dead horse..

Thanks for the post on the UCB turmoil. All this in time for the Third Wave of foreclosures that has already started to appear here in the east bay.

The HELOC situation is yet another chip taken out of the economy that will push many over the edge. I hope your situation is not that tenuous, and good luck.

[abumbyanyothername]

10. Nearly everyone in my rolodex is out of work

Of course, I was securitizing sub-prime mortgage loans with Bear Stearns as the banker.

[CoffeeCat]

24. Holy buckets...

You're practically a part of history.

Sub-prime mortgages--do those even exist any more?

[Withywindle]

109. That's where I'm at too.

Me and my friends don't talk about job searches because we all know there is a tiny, ever-shrinking number of jobs in our fields, and those of us who used to work together in various once-healthy companies are now competing with each other for what little bottom-of-the-barrel is left. We don't want to be cut-throat. We like each other way more than we like any theoretical "bosses" and want to keep it that way.

We'd rather talk about survival strategies, like where good groceries are cheapest and which thrift shops have the best selections and which veterinarians do payment plans. (I'd love to ask which vets will do work on people after hours for cash under the table, but I don't have the guts. Yet.)

[Tab]

11. What I expected to hear, but foolishly hoped otherwise

As one of the last posters said "everyone in my Rolodex is in the same position" (or something like that).

This is scary shit, fellas! And I think most of us are not day laborers but white-collar professionals.

I did the entreprenurial route for many years, and suspect I may have to go back to that, but that's no guarantee of success. In fact, it's a guarantee of a wild ride of feast and famine (generally more famine than feast).

We have many years to go. I can't blame this all on Bush - by 2001 the second round of venture funding was running out for a lot of dot coms and the bubble was starting to implode, but when 9/11 happened, the world thought we'd go into Afghanistan, clean up stuff, and get back to normal. Instead, we went into Iraq and you could hear (if you were in a posiiton to hear, and I was) all the corporate wallets collectively slamming shut while they waited to see what would transpire.

Well, it's been eight long years. The toll it's taken on this country is immesurable.

[Fumesucker]

14. No, "the world" didn't think "we'd go into Afghanistan and clean up stuff"..

I for one knew Afghanistan has defeated every invader since Alexander the Great. The Soviets got their asses handed to them and their supply lines were far shorter than ours are and I suspect their humint was considerably better than ours as well, our elint is pretty damn good but electronic intelligence doesn't do much against 12th century goatherds.

Not everyone in the world is as ignorant of history as most Americans seem to be.

Edited to add: I've been out of work so damn long I've almost forgotten what it's like to get a paycheck.

[Lorien]

79. I know entire families who are out of work, and some where one job

has to support the family AND the in-laws. Families where everyone was a white collar worker just two years ago. It's insane.

[femrap]

81. The only jobs in the

US are Medical (where you actually touch the patient) and War (Homeland Security and Defense Contractors). IT is done in India now. Radiology is done in India.

The War Machine may be hiring IT folks. We are witnessing The Decline of the American Empire. I've seen it coming for years. It's an historic time...and will get much worse, I'm afraid.

Get new skills....skills which you'll need when the grid goes down.

[handmade34]

13. time to start worker owned business,

manufacturing, co-ops, etc. How 'bout we use this as an oportunity to change, grow, improve, help, ''make the world a better place''

[tomreedtoon]

37. How 'bout you try competing against Wal-Mart?

You can't. Nobody can, and nobody cares about how politically correct your business is.

The rich hold all the cards. You don't even have a seat at the table. All that hippie philosophy of the 1960's has screwed up your thinking, handmade34. The hippies could run communes and the like because America was wealthy back then, and making money from the war the hippies hated. Now, the bad guys that the hippies could not depose are running things and they don't want hippies around any more.

[handmade34]

49. I'm not ready to give up.

I disagree with your argument. It is the hippies of the 60's who are running things now, with the help of years of deregulation. You are correct, the situation is dire, the rich mostly hold the cards and individual consumers have little control. I still think like-minded people can work together and make a way for themselves. What are the options now? All out revolution, boycotts, whining and crying, political activism, just giving up... I don't know, but it sounds like you have given up and I would like to think that places like DU are sounding boards for potential action for change and that we would act once those possibilities are created. Most progressive social work and artistic work has happened as a result of someone or some organization being willing to risk societal judgement and/or ostracism by acting differently, by creating something out of the ordinary. I'm not giving up, whether it's fighting in the streets, calling my senators, refusing to buy or silently being part of a new way og thinking, I'm there.

[zalinda]

65. It is NOT the hippies of the 60's running things

The hippies of the 60's was a very small group of people. We had a tough time fighting against those who supported the war. Well, supported the war until it was their time to go. Don't blame this mess on the hippies. In fact, the hippies are probably the ones who are still going to war protests, working in food pantries and having been living an eco friendly life for the last 50 or so years. You would be very hard pressed to find a hippie as an executive at one of the fortune 500 companies.

zalinda

[handmade34]

I use the term loosely

as do most people (including using it often for commercial purposes) and I concede to you the fact that what some consider the "true hippies" are not the ones running the Fortune 500 companies. What I witnessed in the 60's and 70's was a wide range and varying degrees of 'hippie-ness'. There was a group that played the game because they had the luxury to do so, but grew into the business class of today. I did not intend to blame this mess on those of us who consciously fought for a more humane government and community years ago. I was obscure in my comment, but wanted to imply that many can play a game, but true commitment is what we need here and now.

[wolfgangmo]

50. Actually many of can and do.

Walmart is not the end all and be all of marketing.

But you can't go head to head. But those of us in the fields of non-insurance medicine, and co-ops and other natural health outlets are doing well right now. The reason, of course is that lots of people are going broke, losing insurance and need cost effective alternatives.

We hold classes right now on how to eat organic food at less than they can spend at walmart. The class is full to bursting. People are going back to basics.

[rucky]

87. It's viable - if the workers own the means of production.

bypass big investors, and cut all the fat at the top.

[tomreedtoon]

122. That worked well in Russia, didn't it?

No, what is necessary is for the government to get tough on corporations, limit their power and size, and force them to be responsible to the public good.

Our problems all stem from deregulation. Corporations will only behave like model citizens if the full force of the law makes them. That began slipping during the Presidency of Saint Ronnie the Bastard, and no President had the courage to re-instate corporate responsibility. And I'm afraid that Obama may show no more courage than, say, Clinton or Carter in that regard.

[rucky]

123. Seems here are the options we're talking about:

a) A group of laid-off, skilled workers form an s-Corp, scrape up some funding, and take ownership of an abandoned factory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/8947

b) Congress passes the reforms you describe.
(sorry, no link for that one)

c) Both - because it's not an either/or proposition

d) We're red-baited out of examining either option.

[tomreedtoon]

133. And once they take a factory, what will they build?

Routers that nobody wants to buy? Computers that people can't afford?

You can't just "make stuff." You have to make stuff people need and can afford to buy.

And the tech stuff is already built cheaper in China than you could do here.

The point is that there's no point building anything high-tech any more. Building low-tech or no-tech items, in VAST quantities, and CHEAPER than anyone else in the world can, is the only answer.

Unless you have those plans for cold fusion and antigravity in your back pocket? And once those are stolen by the Chinese, they'll make it cheaper and we'll still be in the same situation.

Which returns to my whole point; high tech is economically pointless to develop, unless you can somehow keep other nations from acquiring the tech. And that may be impossible. So all those IT degrees and programming courses are useless and a waste of money. Getting Americans to make huge quantities of steel again, and selling it to the Japanese to make cars, is a far more sound direction to go in.

[DKRC]

16. No, we're all unemployed

and have been for a long time. You'll get over the nausea & vertigo with time.

[Richard Steele]

19. K&R

[Yupster]

21. My income is down 50 %

and I work with small businesses, and every one of them is hunkering down and holding on.

Some are cutting hours, some are closing one day a week.

I asked about cutting staff to one guy and he told me by cutting hours you cut staff because someoe will quit because they need more hours.

They're all doing everything they can to not cut people, but it's coming because they're al struggling regardless of the industry.

[AnneD]

99. I shop small business every chance I get.....

I want to keep the money circulating locally not in a corp office. I buy produce from local farmers market. I get my meat from my brother (what luck). I went through my budget and cut big, like consolidation of insurance but beefed up Union contributions, changed cell plans, etc. Hubby and I eat at small mom and pop eateries and use local services. Hubby and I have been paying off our debts for 5 years and we are almost debt free. We are saving up to get a house before we retire. We were so lucky to start this before the crash. We try to help other.

[XemaSab]

25. I would be one of those people

Folks ask how the job hunt is going, and there's not much to say about that.

[natrat]

29. the screwed up part is there will be no CCC,TVA or reform of financial abuses

our new deal is horrifying to think about.

[KharmaTrain]

30. I'm Watching Something Very Similar

For years I played in broadcasting...cashed out when booosh came in. I saw how destructive "deregulation" was under Clinton and expected things would get even worse under boooshie. I was right. The greed and largess of the corporates grew while their need to squeeze every penny into their pockets led to "consolidation" then "outsourcing" and now these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. Couldn't have happened to a bunch of better crooks, yet I know they'll take their millions and head off to destroy some other business. Meanwhile I know too many good talents who are teaching, "consulting", parking cars, flipping burgers...doing everything they can to stay afloat...their dreams and spirits have been shattered.

When too big to fail fails it's not a pretty sight. And I predicted what would happen when the fast, easy money vanished. Too many believed it wouldn't happen, trusted their corporate overlords and when things got tough, they were cast aside like trash.

The saving grace...if there's any right now...is the talented, dedicated people are still out there and hopefully will get a chance to rebuild in a smaller and more effecient business world.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[natrat]

58. i hear they are going to farm humans for their organs and live forever

[pipoman]

31. My story is a bit different

I got out of a 20 year profession which paid well (high 5/low 6 figures every year) not because I had to, but because I grew to hate it. It is one of the few professions which is unaffected or growing right now. I followed my dream, went into a field I have never worked in before, started near the bottom ($8/hr) 18 months ago, and now manage the business. I still am making around 1/2 my previous income, but I like going to work.

All that said, what I found when I started working at the new job was incompetence, laziness, and insubordination from the bottom thru management. By working hard, smart, respectfully, and reliably, rapid advancement was the reward. When I first started the new job one of the executives at the company commented to the effect, that he was surprised not only at the quality of my work but that I showed no shame for having one of the lowest paying jobs in the organization. My response was simply "There is dignity in all labor, deny dignity to anyone on the labor chain and suffer for it at the top", then I turned around and went back to work. Within days my salary took a 25% increase, now that executive is only 2 supervisors up from my position (my immediate supervisor's boss).

Bottom line, there is usually a silver lining if a person is willing to look for it, stay positive, and provide the best quality of work. Good luck to you..

[lunatica]

41. I'm curious as to what you work in now

And what you got out of. Just curious

[pipoman]

71. It is sort of a long story

here is the whole story, both questions are answered here, I just don't want to derail this thread. Thanks..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=236&topic_id=41536

[sasquatch]

40. I guess they finally figured out that John Wayne, Horatio Alger and Atlis Shrug is all bullshit

[comtec]

43. Horatio Alger is dead, John Wayne shot him

which is sad, but true.

[comtec]

42. I admit to hiding in Europe

Holland is one of the least impacted countries for assorted reasons.
My wife's company which is a very unique business that fills a very needed gap in power regulation (transformers) is hurting.
They are attritioning people 'naturally'. That is people leave for another (better?) job, they retire, etc...and they dont refill that position.

The problem is that business has followed suit. they are down 5 people from last year, and busy wise, there is little difference.

I left 5.5 years ago. I actually saw the bust coming way back in 98. The problem is and will be unrealistic expectations.
if * had not stolen the election the economy would have come in for a soft(er) landing. Instead * stole the election, world confidence EVAPORATED over night (does anyone actually REMEMBER that the night * was selected the market CRASHED! I do. I remember quite vividly) Then we had 9/11 just as the economy was actually starting to recover from that horrible crash.

that was it, that was the end.

I am in IT. I have done that entry level phone work, and worked my way up to tier 3. but i could not have done that without suffering those few months in Tier 1. Since those jobs are now in india, I have no way to work my way back up.

I am not working (thank FSM! I got another year contract - next year it's Perm. This year a Perm would have been guaranteed termination) in a related, yet totally different field. If i lost this job, i'd be screwed. I knew taking this position I was terminally damaging my ability to return to IT. I was already behind from the 2+ years it's taken me to go through the immigration process (8 months for paperz, then a year+ learning the language and "integrating" see rant on inburgering in holland)

But I left because even 6 years ago the IT jobs in the bay area (CA) were evaporating. They were hiring senior level people for mid (im mid) level positions and outsourcing to India. What few entry level position there were they didn't want to hire me because I'd actually expect to get promoted through diligence, and hard work- not to mention competency.

So here I am, doing not too bad, I have health insurance that is competent, with doctors that are not (I would KILL for the German system. This is bush-care lite, I swear). I have not been denied, but the Doctor I have is hesitant to prescribe anything you don't demand - but he is good about antibiotics (imho over used).

But I am afraid for America. I am afraid because I do wonder how far from all out violence we are? And if we don't deserve the revolution that will come.I am afraid for everyone else, because my family is taken care of. My dad is retired Gov+ Military - worse off he has the VA. My Step-dad is a retired teacher from an affluent area, so my mom is taken care of.
My brother in law is coast guard so my sister is taken care of.
My step-brother is a crazy good musician, who has a bloody doctorate (along with his wife) in music and are teaching in NYC, so they are ok.

I am worried for everyone else in the US. And I am worried if they will take vengeance on my family. We're hardly rich. We're old middle class (because apparently MC is not 300k+ WTF?)

I'm worried because the desperate don't always make such fine distinctions between middle (every-man basically) class and the uber rich.

[Ganja Ninja]

46. As a baby boomer and former autoworker let me say ...

Welcome to my world. :hi:

[conspirator]

47. You tell me. 5 years software development experience and unemployed.

Now retraining as a car mechanic. Which by the way is not a bad trade.

[mntleo2]

48. As a techie I gave up ...

...As an older woman in that business, I often see that, with people my age and sex, when someone my son's age is doing the hiring, I can see it on their face: "I am not going to hire my mom to play foosball with me ..." I am now helping anyone who want help for free with their computer problems because it is at least keeping me abreast of all the new stuff coming out and helps others who need it and perhaps can't afford it. It is not anything that will get me a job. However it is turning people on to the computer that is my passion ~ particularly low income people and seniors who feel so intimidated by them for many reasons.

I am an activist for low income people and I have heard it all. The "rags to riches to riches to rags" stories are legion. One thing that might be good about all this is that people who sat back and judged low income folks are now becoming more understanding since they now know poverty is for many reasons ~ and most of them have little to do with drugs and alcohol. American poverty is about racism, sexism, and classism ~ I would say this is the reason the world over for the most part. The drugs and alcohol usage in wealthier American neighborhoods is little different than in poorer neighborhoods, but the police presence with arrests and imprisonment, particularly among people of color, is disproportionately represented in neighborhoods of the poor the most. A large population of high class prostitutes come from the (mostly) female population who are addicts themselves coming from rich families whose parents who are drinkers and/or drug users themselves. Often these kids are looking for a thrill they cannot find in their privileged upbringing.

So perhaps one good thing about this embarrassment about work and economic status is that now, people in poverty are better understood instead of being blamed for all the problems in this country, which they did not cause, they are only the victims.

Cat In Seattle

[Vickers]

52. My wife and I *combined* make less than I did in the telecom industry

8 years ago.

:shrug:

We never really "bumped up" our lifestyle as I made the climb financially, so we haven't been hit as hard as some of my former colleagues.

[madmom]

54. This problem is two fold. My son works/worked as a machinist, he got laid off. Now

where ever he goes he gets beat out for the job because "we can get people with more education for the same wage we paid for lesser educated before" He worked as a machinist for over 10 years but because he doesn't have a piece of paper, he loses out.

[irislake]

60. How great was it to be `successful`` for starters

and how often have you wondered why North America nearly always equates success and happiness with money. There is a lot to be said for the `simple`life.

Maybe I am simple-minded for recommending it.


My son`s job in a high-tech company in the U.S. was out-sourced to India. (The whole department.) He was given 3 mos to find another job in that company and did -- at the same pay.

Although I am happy for him because he was so relieved I wonder how long his luck will hold out. He can always bring his American wife and move back to Canada if he loses his health coverage but I told him the story of my wonderful Grandfather who was head of Imperial Oil (Esso) for Northern Ontario (Canada). At the age of fifty he was offered the job as president of Imperial Oil. That meant he would have to leave the small community up north and adopt the lifestyle of an elite Toronto bigwig. He retired. (Comfortably I`ll admit but by no means rich.)

He stayed in his modest house in the small community gardening and reading books, chatted with neighbours and cherished his family. I thought it was a very rich and peaceful existence. He was a happy and fulfilled man.

I am now seventy and live in a log house in the woods also enjoying (very much) the simple life. On week-ends the cottagers from the city come here to relish only two days of what I have every day.

I urge my `successful`daughter who participates in the rat-race in Toronto to give up her high-paying high tech job and take a position for half the money in the country. She is becoming exhausted and is very tempted. Her partner is a plumber and his pay alone would be enough to support them -- houses being so much cheaper when you get out of the city.

As for the stigma I have a friend with two sons. One, an electrician, stayed in the village and is satisfied with very ample money -- not lavish. The other, a plumber, went for Big bucks and has all the trappings of success. I had to chuckle when the father said to their mother, Where did we go wrong --- referring to the son who went for the big bucks.

People who made it big in big cities return to high school reunions and deplore their old school mates who had no ambition and live happily in small communities. But I wonder who is more successful at life and who is happier. How much do we need anyway. Not much really.

Well so much for the advice. You do not need it as circumstances are forcing you to re-think you values. Eh. Or huh.

(Scuse absence of question marks. My computer is malfunctioning this morning.)

[redqueen]

63. Love this post.

:thumbsup:

[Hannah Bell]

86. hate to tell you but "people in small communities" are getting laid off too.

15% unemployment here.

if you don't have income, you will eventually not have a place to live. this is the flaw in your "simple values".

[nolabels]

64. Sigh, .... unfortunately for me the trade i have and the company i work for are too stable

We had a few layoffs but mostly our company always ran lean and our services were in demand and mostly irreplaceable



It seems more like 'you don't know what you got until other people don't have it':shrug:

[earcandle]

68. The master plan was to undermine us and make us a third world country

in wages, in lack of self esteem, and finally in turning against ourselves as a whole, so that our tension causes civil unrest and the need for a police state. What is left? Civil war, complete meltdown, soldiers on our turf, halliburton rebuild.

how to stop it? well some of us may have to die, but it would be much more enlightened and hip if we repool and rebuild with our own capital and ignore the fuckers. Don't use the banks, start our own. Do your own payroll, not with a service. And put people in leadership roles who get it. And convince our sons and daughters to come home from the fight. don't work for gun and weapon factories no matter how poor, and don't become a cop or a soldier. we could start an underground economy of our own using pot and our own banks. we could refuse to pay taxes to the government and pay them to those who will invest in our health, well being and growth. But we got to do this world wide. We should look to south america for leadership.

there is my two cents, straight out of the book of common sense and how energy flows. put our own accountants back to work, and take HR away from the nazi's who portray us as less than human.

http://www.earcandleproductions.com/Worker_Bee.mp3

[Blue_Tires]

69. yeah, i used to be in newspapers

what you describe was starting to show signs 6-7 years ago...and we weren't even making 6 digits....

[prolesunited]

82. What field were you able to transition into?

[Blue_Tires]

89. public relations, kinda-sorta...

i'm still trying to get a real, decent-paying job in the industry, but i don't have a lot of PR experience...I'm also looking into writing/editing jobs...

[prolesunited]

92. Having PR experience still doesn't help

I have 12 years and equal time in newspapers and I'm still having trouble. I think I fall in that delightful category of too old and too experienced.

[Blue_Tires]

107. i know a good listserv if you aren't already on it...

this guy is pretty well connected

http://www.nedsjotw.com/

[Lorien]

70. Yep. I'm an illustrator and former 2D animator

Most o my former colleagues worked for Disney, Dreamworks, Sony, Warner Brothers and various toy manufactures. Most of the 2D animation studios have closed. Disney is making one more 2D pic-"The Princess and the Frog"-and has nothing after that so layoffs are happening now. One of my bigger clients, MGA Entertainment (makers of those awful "Bratz" dolls) has pretty much gone under. I hated their products, but they were a very good company to work with. Treated freelancers quite well! Just about everyone I know is struggling. It's quite disheartening.

On edit; yes, I also used to make six figures. Now I'm not above the poverty line.

[JDPriestly]

75. I have begun writing my congresscritters every day about healthcare

reform and the need to vote either for H.R. 676 or H.R. 3200 without further negotiations. (Both acceptable bills, H.R. 676 the best.) I end each e-mail with the request that Congress just pass one of these bills without further ado and get on to the work of creating jobs for Americans.

The health care bills are all ready for passage. They just need votes and a signature. Congress is dilly-dallying around and wasting time. The next job is creating those green jobs. They are procrastinating that one because they know it will cost a lot of money. But we have to spend money here at home if we are to generate tax revenue. Medicare costs would not be such a problem if there were jobs for the over-50-year-olds now. Fact is that the health care that people get in their 50s can decide how well they are in later years. Right now, a lot of middle-aged people are losing their jobs, not finding new ones and also losing their health care insurance. Unemployment checks do not cover health care insurance.

Health care insurance and then jobs. The one will make the other more possible.

[wizstars]

80. "Prosperity is just around the corner." --Herbert Hoover c. 1929

"So is poverty." George W. Bush, 2009

[tomreedtoon]

119. Scary, isn't it? Hoover was a conservative Republican...

...who utterly believed in the system of business. He believed the economy would recover on its own, and quickly, without government affecting anything.

And it appears that President Obama has a lot of those same beliefs; that Roosevelt-like intervention and job creation are unnecessary, that the banks can be trusted, that business will revive on its own.

I still believe in Obama, but I wonder if Obama the President is ignoring the beliefs of Obama the candidate.

[hunter]

83. It's scary in my town.

I was in a big box store yesterday, one that used to be crowded, and I saw only two people working and maybe five customers. I doubt they were making enough to keep the lights on, much less pay the employees or lease.

There seems to be no jobs in the pipeline, and no hope. There are empty houses scattered throughout our neighborhood, no signs, nothing but a note attached to the front door with blue tape. Many more houses have brown lawns. I'm guessing people don't bother keeping up appearences if they think they are going to lose the house, or else they are living so close to the edge they can't afford the water.

No recession or recovery here, nobody wants to say it, but this is a depression.

[leveymg]

90. The only people who have careers these days either work for the gov't or gov't contractors

When that's gone bankrupt, too, then the shit will hit the fan.

Until then, half of us will be paid to watch/police the other half.

[Buzz Clik]

91. I've seen what you're saying. It's tough out there.

[Grinchie]

93. I noticed it in 2002, and left the industry, but it was common knowledge.

I started my own "Growth" industry, and that was Farming, and it hasn't disappointed me yet.

The IT industry has turned into another "Make Work" industry that produces 2% real productivity, and 98% consumption of labor and resources. It stupefies the majority of Americans by freeing them of actual critical thinking, and provides ample distraction to the real issues of the day.

If the Ex-IT people are even considering working at WalMart, then they deserve it, because they are too specialized to adapt to a changing environment, and continue to work for the man that destroyed their career in the first place.

The first thing and EX-IT person learns is how incapable they are at actully producing a tangible product or service, whether it be a Tomato, a well tuned, efficient automobile, or a hand crafted chair. They may be able to design a chair in AutoCad, but when it comes down to producing it, they are lost. Simply because they are so far removed from the variability and chaos of an individual piece of wood, causes most every task to encounter unforseen difficulties.

I think the recent segment of The Daily Show exemplified this with the story about "Pull My Finger" vs "iFart" applications.. Good luck with that when your water is cut off, you don't have electricity, and the local supermarket is cleaned out.

[comtec]

113. What a very pleasant asshole you are

Many of us grew up with our heads in the computer because of assholes like you on the outside.

It was our escape. We knew and understood it. It was comforting, because every time we ventured out we ran into self-righteous, pompous, assholes.

I agree that other skills are not tough enough in school, and too much negative stigma has always been attached to honest, hard work, like gardening, and growing plants, sewing, carpentry, et al.

I have some of these skills- but for the life of me, I can not understand why I can kill a vine but grow weeds that could win prizes!

try to de-inflate a bit and learn some humanity.

Most ITers were told this was what the "low income" job would be about now-ish.

They were just kids growing up in under-funded schools, that didn't have green houses, or even a short course on repairing their own clothes. Their parents were probbaly killing themselves to keep them taken care of, et al.

learn some humility. you survived, and adapted, yay you. no go choke on a organic husk of corn.

The rest of us are trying to survive with what little dignity we have.

How about posting some gardening tips, as opposed to bloviating on what a better person you are than those damned, dirty IT-ers.

[timo]

114. IT snobs

I think Grinchies point of view is because of asshole IT snobs who look down their noses at the great unwashed masses who really make the world go round, and now the masses are tired of it, plus the IT crowds disposable income to pay for our services have dried up, so the worker bees don't have to be as nice to them anymore

[comtec]

115. That is actually a pretty fair point

But it's not as though we didn't work our ever-lovin asses off.

But yeah I can see the point. Class warfare at it's worst.
Which is probably why the US is still in the situation it's in.
they have us all fighting for crumbs, while they eat cake.

[Grinchie]

127. No, thats not my point.

It has been my point of view for many years that the current educational system churns out well categorized specialists, and not enough generalists. How many times have you heard the phrase "Jack of all trades, but master of none?". This mentality is an enforced edict upon the workers of the world in order to be able to easily replace one cog with another.

I have always had a very wide ranging desire to know who things work. When things don't make sense to me, I search out the facts and learn where my knowledge was lacking and then go as deeply as I am able to. This applies to Geology, Metallurgy, Chemistry, Electronics, Computer Science, Agriculture, Forestry, Pest Management, Irrigation, Ethnobotany, Hydrology, Climatology, Waste Management, Database science, Harmonics, Patterns, Spectra, Economics, etc. etc. etc. I ignored the role of "Specialist" and focused of being a "Generalist". It has never played a negative role on getting hired for anything, and my resume is about 12 pages long. The myth that if you have many jobs makes you less desirable is also a myth, but it is used quite commonly as an excuse.

At this point, I have had first hand real world experience with the Rat Race, and the last thing I learned was that it is a complete sham. It is a marketing campaign devoted to promoting consumption and transfer of wealth.

One of the last areas of study for me has been Economics, and it really surprised me about how much I didn't know, especially while earning 6 figures for many years. We are not taught the difference between asset or liability, and are marketed into consumption by media and government economic policy. Does anybody wonder why the savings rate is negative in America when an average savings account returns 0.25% annual interest?

They push the buttons, and Americans, like trained rats run for another hit of the drug of the day.

While there are folk here that will defend their production of Daily TPS reports, when it boils down to the real productivity, they got nothing but an extra piece of Flair on their lapel.

I've been out of IT since 2003, and the amount of free time it has given to me is more wealth than anything I could have earned in a cube.

Furthermore, if you are working more that 40 hours a week, then you are just screwing your self. Of course, if you are having fun, then have at it, but if you are ignoring real life skills then it's a waste.

As for IT Snobs, I never ran into that many. As a generalist, they were always envious of the many different points of views offered by having a diverse skill set, and the unique solutions it provided. They would always be amazed at the stories of the Passing Golden Eagle that landed on one of the trees upcanyon, or would see the benefit of pruning the codebase of dead code.

The IT people that are suffering today have the skills to become Polymath. All they need is the time to pursue tthe things that interest themselves. Money is really nothing at all, and as soon as people realize that it is nothing more than the shadow of wealth, it's desirability will not be as high as it is today.

The true wealth is adapting to the current environment. It's not by placing the blame on others, but by waking up to the cold hard reality that the system is a fraud, and frauds can collapse very quickly.

[Grinchie]

126. Survive? Sound like you are whining about it being someone elses fault.

That's right, take the comfortable stand that everyone is against you, and that's the only reason you are suffering.

You state "but for the life of me, I can not understand why I can kill a vine but grow weeds that could win prizes". All I can say is, have you ever taken the time to expand your mind as to "Why"? You have demonstrated exactly the point I was trying to make, specialization is the root cause of failure, simply because ones focus is too narrow, and too separated from the physical reality and the Lawa of Nature that dictate the fundamental rules that apply to everything on Earth.

You are mistaken by calling me an outsider. I most likely had a had in the development of the software that you code it to this day. Perhaps it was because I was able to see the transition from a truly innovative field towards the GM model of annual obsolesence, ridiculous distraction, and make work that I determined that it was non-productive.

I can see your anger welling to the surface. I would recomend that you direct that energy to learning about the fundamentals of life instead of attacking the messenger. Self-pity is very expensive, and nobody is going to come to save you. You have to take that responsibility for yourself, and be prepared for some really hard physical work ahead. It didn't kill me, it made me stronger, and it will make you stronger too.

Break out of the box you have built for yourself and explore the world.

[tomreedtoon]

120. Grinchie, I've been saying the same thing and get blasted for it.

My opinion: the hordes of people who studied IT saw it as "money for nothing and your chicks for free." They had no particular love or understanding of computers; they wanted a way to make a fast buck. And they were suckered by two basically evil forces: the educational institutions that told them there were "opportunities," and the businesses who needed them as workers, until there were enough Indian teens to work for a tenth of American wages.

The same can be said for most college degrees. Americans used to be able to get good jobs and support families with high school educations. But educators, people who are often dunderheaded, believed that physical labor and actual creation of products was "dirty" and "demeaning." People had to get a college education to even be considered for a job. This made colleges richer and larger, but didn't enrich the lives of the people slogging through the curriculum.

Now all those third-world countries with "ignorant savages" have big tech facilities, and they make nearly everything used in the United States - only cheaper and flimsier. We have millions out of work, more each day, and we can't even change the oil in our cars or cook our own food. And sitting at the top, laughing at us, are the top one percent that make God-like money at our expense.

And I'm afraid it will take violence, and lots of it, to change this situation. (Somedays, when I get depressed about this, I'm no longer afraid of violence: I smile when I consider it.)

[Grinchie]

129. I personally think that Violence is not the answer, especially when resistance works so much better

I look at what Gandhi was able to accomplish with pacifist movement, and it really is amazing. After all, it required no materials, no armaments, and no civil war, although if you were to ask the British, it was a complete revolution.

All of this due to the fact that the people refused to go along with the game. If every single American one day said, no, I'm not going to support this system anymore, the Government would grind to a halt. They have worked very hard to convince people that they are powerless, while at the same time demonizing labor unions.

At this point, the system is teetering on the edge of collapse. The rule of Law is rewritten to the benefit of the Powers that Be as they see fit, while contract law in ragrds to the liens the PTB holds on the People are sacrosanct.

The current Administration has the same spots as the last, and the one before it, yet people are still clinging to some belief that things are going to change. They will, but it will be when this fraud finally collapses once and for all, but the only real threat is if the Government pays off the creditors with our wealth and real property.

It can happen, and that will be the real tragedy of all of this.

This whole event can turn into the epic battle within the Human body against Cancer, although It's pretty clear that the Cancer has metastisized into the Liver and Brain already, causing irreparable damage. The Liver being our GMO laced Agricultural system, and the Brain being the government. The Cancer being the Corporations expanding into every other organ as well.

[RagAss]

98. It's all gone to India !

[Gwendolyn]

103. Yes, I have.

Those who are out of work, are either squeezing by, or desperate, depending on how much contract work they get. Those who are still employed are stressed out like crazy wondering when the ax will fall on their heads. In my industry, even if you're middling seniority, you can find yourself easily replaced by one cheaper, very inexperienced, fresh faced slave wager and a few experienced contract workers brought in at low ball prices to make up the slack.

[cap]

110. A little chicken soup for the liberal soul: Have a cup of Walter Reuther

http://www.reuther.wayne.edu/collections/hefa_261-uaw.htm

We are just going to have dig down and get this kind of guts. We will all feel a lot better when we do. Yeah, some of us will sustain some body blows. But, we're tough and we can take it.

Let's make this a "teachable moment":
http://reuther100.wayne.edu/guide.php

[tomreedtoon]

121. I'd rather take a fistful of Jimmy Hoffa.

Controversial or not, he was a union leader who saw no trouble facing company goons and paid-off police with violence. It's true that the modern-day UAW has sold out its own members and refuses to fight for them, but even at its peak, they had nothing on the Teamsters when it came to forcing the rich bastards to bargain.

I, for one, would love to have Bill Gates plan and design a new building, and inhabit it...only to find that there was a little too much sand in the concrete mix. Or to find his IT people on strike and his mainframes full of Sudoko programs, and the source code for every version of Windows distributed freely to the Internet.

[MrsBrady]

116. I'm a professional musician, but I worked as a recruiter for 3 years.

I have a huge professional admin resume, as I was lucky enough to have to really good admin jobs before I worked in recruiting.
I had about 15 years experience working, and he thought he could teach me how to recruit.
He did. I was very good.

But he paid crap. I made 14 an hour plus crappy commission. I actually pulled off 36k a year for 3 years, and that was rough because his commission scale sucked too.
But I sure did make the company a lot of money. Paid for myself many times over.

We did "reverse auction" recruiting.
In other words. A large client would have Company A handle all the recruiting...and 5-20 other companies would submit resumes to the system.
These 5-20 companies would "bid" for the jobs, and the lowest bidders would be allowed to recruit for positions.
Then, the people that got interviews were the cheapest vs more experience. Most of the time, the resume had to have exactly what they were looking for. No training was much involved.
We are talking telco, wireless, engineering...big name companies that you would recognize. Everything from auto industry to beverage to telco to wireless to pos.

What ended up happening, is that the companies were trying to find people working at the H1 rate, which is about 27 per hour (legally).
Of course, no one wanted to work at that rate, some would....but many of the high end jobs would only end up paying about 35-40 hour max, even if they went that high.
And there was no negotiation on the rate. The large client's rate was set, our company made only a certain amount, not on percentage. Our company made the same, no matter how much the contractor made.
Most people didn't really believe me when I said this rate is unmovable, and that the system was set up so that there was not really any negotiation available on the rate.
Most people would come to believe me when I would finally say, "I'd love to pay you more, and I understand you want to negotiate, but this is set and If you don't want to work at that rate I understand, but I'll have to move on. Thanks."
Don't even get me started on the cost of health care.

This is how they do business now. But I don't hear anyone talking about it. Anywhere.

New Chemistry grads in NY were being paid 15 per hour for a major beverage/snack manufacturer, and they paid the entire cost of premium for their health care. They were so young and clueless. They had no idea.
After 3 years I had to quit because I was going to lose my soul.

I had already begun to move to the left politically, after hanging out with lefty songwriters for the last 10 years...and thinking for myself.
Don't know why I was a Repug, when most of my family were Democrats anyway. I don't know how I could have been so blind.
I was already a Democrat when I took that job, but this job moved me very far to the left.

Anyway, I'm back in college to finish my music degree...and then maybe teach school or music...maybe master degree...teach grade school or college. I haven't decided.
I know there will be plenty of BS in education, but at least I can compose/write while I do that. And at least at the end of the day I've tried to help someone.

[Spike89]

128. Survivor guilt also keeping people quieter

My wife works in the marketing department of a manufacturing company that has had serious layoffs. She's been alternating between full-time and one week on, one off (involuntary) for a few months now. That she's still pulling a check (albeit fewer, smaller ones) from the company means she feels guilty talking to her friends (who lost theirs) about the job.

Worse, as is typical, the people that were let go were mostly the higher paid long-term workers. New hires were kept on in some cases because they simply cost less. My wife has mixed feelings about marketing, but these other factors have really made her self conscious about having a job at all.

[B Calm]

131. If only I made six digits per year , hell I could retire in a few years.