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Instead of forcing people to buy health insurance, how about making it more difficult

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Tony_FLADEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:02 PM
Original message
Instead of forcing people to buy health insurance, how about making it more difficult
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 04:03 PM by Tony_FLADEM
for people to get health care and shift the cost to others because of a lack of insurance.


If health care reform passes and it is easier to attain health insurance through a public option or co-operative, those who choose not to participate should not be allowed to shift the cost to others if they get sick.


Instead of requiring them to get insurance, make it more difficult to shift the cost through a variety of methods i.e. withholding a portion of their pay.

You are never going to bring down the cost of health care without increasing transparency and reducing the shifting of costs. This would be an alternative to those who oppose a requirement to buy health insurance because they view this an "un american".
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. how about making it more difficult to be an idiot?
"how abt making it more difficult for people to get health care" is tantamount to maiming and killing people, what ethical doctor could go along with that

you are never going to be able to bring down the cost of health care as long as technology keeps coming up w. new expensive things (which is actually a good thing) to prolong lives and to save life and limb

you are also never going to be able to bring down the cost of health care as long as the insurance industry is allowed to stick its ass in and take off a large helping of profit every time someone gets help

making it more difficult for those who can't buy insurance to get care is a cruel and ridiculous suggestion, why don't you suggest that we cook and eat them to save a few bucks if they can't afford to buy the fucking insurance? take it out of their pay, what are you a part time comedian? a lot of these people don't have any pay to take it out of

what the hell is the matter with people, i guess i don't always think before i post either, but at least i fucking TRY
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Tony_FLADEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm not referring to people who are too poor to buy health insurance
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 04:20 PM by Tony_FLADEM
They should get a subsidy if they can't afford to cover the total cost.

I am referring to people who can afford insurance but choose not to because they think nothing will happen to them. Then something happens i.e. a car accident and they can't pay a $100,000 bill.

You are not denying anyone health care, just making it more difficult to shift the cost. You need transparency if you are going to reduce costs.

You have a similar situation with auto insurance. In some states if you get into an accident and you don't have insurance, you go to jail.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. has that ever happened once in the history of all mankind?
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 04:24 PM by pitohui
nobody "can" afford health insurance but keeps the money in their pocket because they think "nothing" will happen to them

they don't buy the fucking insurance because it is too fucking high for what they get -- i assume you are referring to self employed people buying individual policies, well, you be self employed and try it for yourself, if you get hurt/sick suddenly your policy is no good and you have no company behind you so, yah, some self employeds don't buy it because they KNOW from experience of self and others that it's worthless, just a theft of their money and they're still not covered

didn't you see "sicko"???? that wasn't about people who refused to buy health insurance, they were insured, they simply didn't get the coverage they paid for

in what state do you go to jail if you don't have auto insurance? don't make me laugh, do you know the percentage of drivers on the road that are mexican immigrants etc. who can't even get insurance? they don't go to jail, maybe they get deported if they really hurt somebody else -- i've had friends drive for years w. no insurance for economic reasons, nope, didn't go to jail, at least the judge was more kindly than you and tried not to exact too harsh a punishment when they got caught -- what would be the point? they can't afford insurance, they don't have thousands of dollars hanging around the house either
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Tony_FLADEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Making it more difficult to shift costs is an incentive for people to get coverage
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 04:35 PM by Tony_FLADEM
I don't think it is politically realistic to require everyone to get insurance as they are contemplating in the Congress.


There needs to be alternatives to the health insurance model of delivering health care. I don't see how insurance companies offer any value or contribute anything to the health care system.

If they are going to keep the health insurance model of delivering services, then everyone needs to be covered in a way that is acceptable to most Americans.


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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. And what if you've already gone bankrupt from medical bills,
and you've amassed $20,000 in medical bills because your cancer comes back? Just looking at income it looks like I could afford insurance, but that isn't reality.
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PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. It can't work that way
First, any attempt to equate health care to auto insurance is bogus. We're not talking about driving a car, where one has other options.

Having dismissed that canard, let's look at your overall suggestion. It's true that if people are given the opportunity to "opt out" because they're young and/or healthy and think they'll stay that way, you'd end up with a broken system. In fact, what you're describing isn't far from the current system we have.

The whole idea of insurance is the concept of "pooled risk." The larger the pool, the better the deal. The cost (treating the sick) is shared by the whole pool. That's why the only real solution is single-payer. Everyone in the country would be automatically covered and the system would be paid for out of general tax revenues. Tax rates would go up, presumably in a progressive fashion. But the extra tax would be far less than private insurance premiums people pay today. So it would be a net gain for 98% of the population. In other words, people would be paying less for better coverage than they have now. It's kind of a no-brainer.

Republicans will do anything they have to to scuttle this, of course. Why? Besides pleasing their corporate masters and "contributors," they know that if there's real reform, it will relegate them to the dustbin for decades the same way FDR's New Deal did. (They were even plotting a coup against FDR back then.)

Now, I share your concern about "forcing people to buy insurance." This is the wrong way to go. Such a scheme could be rightfully referred to as the "Private Insurance Racket Protection Act." Uncle Sam would act as the muscle forcing you to pay your vigorish to the lavishly-compensated billionaire insurance CEO's while they merrily go about their business lying about their policies' "benefits" to get you in the door, then deny your claims while they kick you out the back door -- minus your wallet.

But you lose your rationale when you talk about "cost shifting." How does that work? If someone gets sick and has no insurance, regardless of whether they "should have" or not, it is still a benefit to society as a whole that they get treated. The threat of docking their pay (assuming they have enough to "dock" in the first place) will simply motivate them to not seek treatment, guaranteeing a bigger drain on both their health and society as a whole.

Again, this is why single-payer is the only thing that works. Everyone can get the help they need regardless of their ability to pay, and we don't lose 20% or more off the top to profit-skimming parasites who contribute nothing to society at all.

Even the "public option" plans offered so far fail miserably. Unless everyone is enrolled in the same system (single-payer,) you will dilute the risk pool. Even the most optimistic descriptions about such a scheme, where private insurance could no longer deny claims (they've already testified they'll never agree to stop that practice) or refuse coverage for pre-existing conditions, you'd still have a fractured risk pool. Each plan, private or public, would be its own risk pool and it would pale in comparison to a national single risk pool like you have with single-payer.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. No. It's my obligation as a human being to try to help the sick.
But it's also my obligation as a human being to reciprocate. It is grossly inappropriate to accept someone else's charity care without participating.
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Interloper Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. but, I don't want health insurance
when I paid for health insurance they never paid out...ever.
When I just paid cash for seeing the doctor I discovered it cost less to pay out of pocket than paying even one month of health insurance. So, I dropped out of health coverage because it isn't financially realistic to pay for insurance. I don't want to be forced to pay for something that only financially benefits administrators and middlemen. I will pay cash.
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WillowTree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. And if you're diagnosed with stomach cancer or MS.......then what?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. If you get *sick* you won't have the cash.
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 06:38 PM by lumberjack_jeff
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Welcome to DU!



:toast:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Abolish healthcare!
:woohoo:
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. or pay the average rate of 6500 per year (2004) out of your pay check at least
health care really isn't a cheap as some people seem to think. We have to pay for ourselves and each other - and that won't ever be cheap. We will need to abolish health care by withdrawing life support from some people - ie people who are on respirators with no brain function who the family wants to keep alive.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Choose? CHOOSE??????
Somebody needs a BIIIIG reality check.

This is like right out of the ....reich wing........

It's time for "progressives" to erase this whole "CHOOSE" meme!
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. That would I think be more feasible if you were to dissolve the sector...
of the investor class that pumps money into health care for profit, like a business. In That; in that it is a business it's allowed to defer costs downward by all manners charter, tax code, and redress you and I may never see. Recalibrate the clamor for obscene profits by manipulating or denying health care to people in need.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. A single payer system into which everyone pays makes that unnecessary..
The contortions people are going through to keep from eliminating the insurance vamp.. err.. companies is amazing to me..

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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I agree - but will every one pay about $8000 per year (approx cost per American)
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 07:07 PM by stray cat
for a single payer system? I would - but the lower your income the harder it is to pay that amt.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. Health care in 2004 was 6500 per person in America, a bill for cancer can go over a million
It is easy for an uninsured individual to cost a hospital millions of dollars and Medicare reimburses about 10% of the costs to the hospital. If they garnish your wages - if you ever regain your health how long will it take you to pay off one million in bills?
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