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OK. Here's my take from Boston on Gates-Crowley

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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 06:34 PM
Original message
OK. Here's my take from Boston on Gates-Crowley
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 06:44 PM by louis c
I've talked to a Cambridge officer (African-American). Labor leaders (Non-police unions). Cambridge politicians and many of my work colleagues. The most frightening are my all white, middle aged work colleagues. But, anyway, here's my take.

1. Common sense-- When Crowley arrived at around 12:30 in the afternoon on Thursday to a "break-in" report from a passer-by (not a neighbor), he approached the front door through the porch. In all the history of criminal justice, can anyone remember a burglar, in the middle of the afternoon, answering the door of a house that didn't belong to him in order to try to convince a cop that it was really his house? On top of that, a burglar that was in his late fifties and walked with a cane? Shouldn't Crowley, at that point, given the benefit of the doubt to Gates? Isn't it rather absurd that he didn't? Isn't it understandable that Gates was upset that he had to prove he lived in his own house?

2 The Constitution--The fourth Amendment grants to every person that he be "secure in his person, houses, places and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures". It goes on to describe that a warrant, specifying the items and person's to be searched and a sworn affidavit to do it. When Crowley, by his own admission, asked Gates if anyone else was in the house, Gates correctly answered that it was none of his business. An unsubstantiated report from a passer-by does not supersede the U.S. Constitution.

3. Two Alpha Males. There is no question in my mind that Gates and Crowley are super Alpha-Males. My speculation is that both were assholes during the incident. I believe that none of it was overtly racial, but instead is the usual "police mentality" when confronted by an equally arrogant and determined person. Remember here, there is no crime, just an erroneous report from a passer-by (white) who made an incorrect assumption (for what ever reason). I have no doubt that Gates overreacted and was met by Crowley's equally arrogant overreaction. Gates may very well have been an asshole, but being an asshole, especially when you are right and safely in your own home, is no crime. This is evidenced by the fact that the Cambridge Police dropped all the charges against Gates after reviewing the police report and talking to the witnesses.

4. My Fear. I'm afraid that too many of my contemporaries would gladly give up their freedom because of their lack of understanding of the US Constitution. Many have come up with wild hypotheticals like "what if an intruder had a gun pointed at Gates. Alter all,the report said two black intruders." Under that line of reasoning a report by anyone could allow police to enter your house and search it and question you without a warrant or even a complaint. Under that line of thinking, an anonymous report that a "dangerous terrorist was hiding in the basement of some house in your home town" could allow the police to search every house in your city, without a warrant. We might as well tear up the Constitution.

5. In Closing. My conclusion is that this is not about race, but about arrogance. Gates was correct but less than friendly. Crowley was, well, a cop. "How dare you question my authority". Again, Gates and Crowley are probably both good men who had a bad day. They'll both garner lavish lives as a result of this overblown incident. What really has educated me is that too many citizens have no idea what the Constitution stands for or what freedom really means, to be secure in your own home and police should only enter it with your permission or with a warrant. As Benjamin Franklin once said, "...A people who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither."



Link:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1187095&format=&page=2&listingType=Loc#articleFull

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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. It must be remembered that Gates had arrived home from a trip out of the country.
I think I saw it was China.

Anybody ever been tired after a trip like that? Jet lagged? Not in the best shape to verbally
spar with the police over your right to be in your own home? No wonder he got pissed. I'd have been pissed, too.

I'll give Gates the benefit of the doubt. The cop, no.
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. That's another arrow in the quiver (nt)
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SteelPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. How bout...
Arriving home from a long long trip, over a day travelling in planes, airports, cabs, etc; only to get home and have your front door jammed and not opening.

I know that would have me in a sparkling demeanor.
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whistler162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Gates has driver force the door open and THEN is
surprised when the police show up to investigate a report of a possible burglary!

Those that can do those that can't teach!
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-30-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. I take it that you teach punctuation, then? nt
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-30-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. ZZIINNGG!
}(
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TuxedoKat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Coming back from China
was the worst jet lag I ever experienced in my life. I am a former Flight Attendent too, so I travelled alot
internationally. I remember just collapsing on the couch when I got home in a dead sleep. I wouldn't have been
in a mood to tolerate any nonsense.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. "How DARE you question mah
Edited on Sun Jul-26-09 06:39 PM by rocktivity


:rofl:
rocktivity
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think you are right
But I do have a question in re: 4th Amendment. Here in Arkansas, if the sheriff comes by your house, he brings along Fish and Game. According to Arkansas law, Fish and Game can go into your house without a warrant to check for illegal meat (ie bear or elk) in your freezer, and the cops just simply tag along. I can't figure out why this hasn't been challenged in court--have your ever heard of any government agency being above the law in this way?
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. We should defend the 4th as ardently as the right defends the 2nd
I can't believe how this amendment has been eroded over the last generation or two. That's unbelievable in your home town. Here's what they did in mine.

Link:

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/389/389mass137.html
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. DEA and their "No Knock Policy"
:shrug: I think the wildlife aspect would lose in any real court challenge though.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Crowley used to work for the Harvard Police.
So, he should have known, as he rolled up to that address, that it was University housing. Why didn't he know who the resident was? He had a phone, right?

Sloppy, all the way around. He fails.

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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-26-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. In reference to your #3 I can guarantee that Prof. Gates
doesn't see it that way.
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I'm sure Crowley doesn't either
but if they were both invited guests to a party and acted that way, the objective observer might see it my way.

I do agree, however, that for Gates to have been more cooperative would have meant that he relinquished his 4th amendment rights. No one ever should do that.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think that is a pretty rational analysis
However, while it may not have been "about race", do you really think the officer would have done everything exactly the same if Larry Summers had come to the door? I don't.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. The police would never have been called
if Larry was having trouble getting in his house. (Or if they were, it would have been to assist.)

The whole situation stinks of racism.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
10. The police have a right to enter a home if they have a reasonable suspicion
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 10:27 AM by Romulox
that a crime is being committed.

There is no Constitutional issue with the officer entering Gates' home. Please be careful when you lament others' "lack of understanding of the US Constitution"!
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. I beg to differ
A report by a neighbor does not vacate the fourth amendment. If I'm in my own house, the police have no right to enter unless they have a warrant. If a "report" is enough for police to enter my home while I'm there, then the fourth amendment is meaningless. We may come to that, but we are not there yet.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. A damaged lock, an open door, a report of a B&E and an uncooperative person inside
Edited on Tue Jul-28-09 09:57 AM by Romulox
Again, there is no Constitutional problem here (do you wonder why you are the only one mentioning it?). You are simply wrong about a warrant being required to enter a home in all cases.

While Wikipedia is not a good primary source, you can see some of the exceptions to the requirement of a warrant (the list is not complete.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Exceptions_to_the_warrant_requirement

Again, please be more careful when passing judgment on a Constitutional issue. One cannot decide Constitutional issues with an appeal to "horse sense" or even the plain text of the Constitution; rather, Constitutional issues are decided on precedent and ideology. In the present case, precedent clearly establishes that there are many situations in which law enforcement does not require a warrant to enter a private home.
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Once the identity is established
and Crowley starts "investigating" by asking "who else is in the house" it is certainly a fourth amendment violation. When I want a cop out of my house and there is no complainant residing at my house and no crime has been committed in me house, the cop has to leave my house. Even crowley knew this. that's why he wanted Gates outside to make his false arrest.

you can make any point you want but I'll rely on these words, "A person shall be secure in his...house." (circa 1789)
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-29-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. We were speaking about *entering* the home without a warrant.
Now you are speaking about when the police officer must *leave* the home. I assume you've conceded that the officer had a right to *enter* the premises under the facts we have.

When the officer must *leave* a house he has legally entered in the investigation of a crime is a separate question, I think, and one that does not really figure in the present case. At any rate, no matter who is right or wrong in the Gates controversy, I don't think an illegal search really figures into the present controversy.
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-30-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Judge Neapolitano agrees with me
Edited on Thu Jul-30-09 02:10 PM by louis c
Certainly the Fox news legal analyst is no ulta-liberal. however, on this one, he can explain it better than me. "...only observing a crime first hand or with a search warrant from a judge, can the police enter your house. Otherwise, it's a violation of the Fourth Amandment". Please scroll down to video. Enjoy.


Link:
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/28/fox-legal-analyst-gates-arrest-was-improper/
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bighart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
11. My question is this:
Just because someone's id says this is their address, does it automatically mean they aren't breaking and entering? What if say a woman has a restraining order against her estranged husband and he has returned to do her bodily harm? His id would show that the given address is where he lives but that does not mean he is not violating the law. Many women are beaten in their own homes every year, often by family members who live at the same address. I think it is prudent, maybe even crucial, for an officer to verify what is going on in this kind of situation as the person could be entering the residence unlawfully, possibly even with further criminal intent, despite the fact that this is the address on their id.

Just my thoughts.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. If there was a restraining order, the police would have a copy.
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bighart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I understand that.
I still think it would be advisable for the officer to determine what the situation is. Just because someones id shows they live at the address that in no way indicates that there is not something going on that may need law enforcement involvement.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Not without probable cause or a warrant or permission from the resident.
That's to protect you against all kinds of infringements -- like being arrested in your home for being black.
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bighart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. I could be wrong but I believe that a report of a possible break-in
provides probable cause in the same way that a cop pulling someone over for speeding and observing "unusual behavior" can provide probable cause to search the vehicle.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That's right, it does. But the moment that cop determined there was
no break in in progress, his job is over.
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. I love your logic
I couldn't have said it better myself.
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. The fourth Amendment defines probable cause
You need a warrant, period.

If another resident of your house swears out a complaint, like a 911 call from an abused spouse, the police can enter. But an unsubstantiated report from a passer-by or a neighbor does not reach that point. If we let "probable cause" be determined by the police, we have no Fourth Amendment. That's why the warrant has to be sworn to by a judge.
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Bingo. Thanks.
Some one who gets it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. During my marriage and before my ex was stable on anti-psychotic meds
I got a graduate seminar in dealing with cops at the door. All kinds of cops, nice ones, mean ones, hassled ones. It's not a bad skill to have.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
15. Hearsay from cable ramblings: Gates FOLLOWED the cop(s) outside & kept verbally abusing
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 11:48 AM by UTUSN
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Hearsay from police spin. Gates followed to get officer ID which
was unlawfully not provided.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. & calling names. But despite the lip service (propaganda) we tell ourselves
that cops MUST provide their ID, it is common knowledge that cops SNAP when it's demanded by huffy (or drunk) citizens and arrest the citizens-------NOooooo, can't beLIEVE it!1

(signed: ) -----I Look Stunning in a Red Beret (but without an ideological tag on it)
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. The question I have is with regard to Sgt. Crowley being the...
'racial profiling expert' who teaches other officers about racial profiling. The question is this:

Why did Crowley not even consider that Dr. Gates responses to him could be as a result of previous experiences of racial profiling by police officers? Dr. Gates is a 58 year old black man who, due to his age, would have experienced all the ugly ramifications of segregation. He would have been 5 at the time Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus which many historians mark as the beginning of the modern civil rights movement in the United States.

From Sgt. Crowley's report:

"He then demanded to know who I was. I told him I was "Sgt. Crowley from the Cambridge Police" and that I was "investigating a report of a break in progress" at the residence. While I was making this statement, Gates opened the front door and exclaimed "why, because I am a black man in America?"."

Why, given Sgt. Crowley is the departments leading expert on racial profiling, did he not recognize Dr. Gates' fear/suspicion as soon as Dr. Gates said, "Why, because I am a black man in America?".

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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. That's an excellent point..
And one I don't think I've heard before.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Maybe he was just too happy the burglar got the door for him. n/t
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. LOL!
I keep asking myself, given Sgt. Crowley's seeming inability to grasp where Dr. Gates' was 'coming from', exactly what training, etc, did Sgt. Crowley have that would have him declared the "expert in cultural diversity" who has taught, for 5 years, a course entitled "Racial Profiling"?

I would have thought part of that training, etc, one would need to 'qualify' as a 'cultural diversity' expert would include an understanding of the history of racial profiling and how to recognize when a minority citizen might be re-acting in a 'surprising' way due to past experiences with racial profiling and, along with that, have the 'tools' to defuse the situation in that case. Am I expecting too much?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. The Cambridge PD has now been shamed twice by this guy.
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 04:51 PM by EFerrari
I hope he has a brother in law that does Amway or something.

More seriously, I bet it would be hard to find a community where some mandated class like that isn't taught and the attendees are just serving time because it's worthless.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yep, it certainly seems, in this case at least, the course is SADLY lacking...
Edited on Mon Jul-27-09 05:05 PM by Spazito
in some pretty key areas. The jaw-dropping part to me was he didn't just take the course, he TAUGHT it! Yikes!

Edited to add: your point re the course being mandated is a very good one. The course could actually contain very little re the subject "Racial Profiling" if the intent in mandating the course is solely to meet a minimum requirement due to policy.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
21. If it wasn't about race, why did he make up the part about the 911 caller reporting two black men?
And why did he make up the part about having a conversation with the caller at the scene?



http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/index.html

911 caller in Gates' arrest says she never referred to race
By Wayne Drash
CNN

(CNN) -- The woman who made the 911 call that led to the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. never referred to race when she contacted authorities for what she thought was a potential break-in, her attorney told CNN on Monday.
Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested after a break-in was reported to police.

Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested after a break-in was reported to police. Attorney Wendy Murphy also categorically rejected part of the police report that said her client, Lucia Whalen, talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene.

"Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene," Murphy said. "And she never said to any police officer or to anybody 'two black men.' She never used the word 'black.' Period."

She added, "I'm not sure what the police explanation will be. Frankly, I don't care. Her only goal is to make it clear she never described them as black. She never saw their race. ... All she reported was behavior, not skin color."

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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. To cover his Ass
You may be right, but I'm inclined to believe that the color in this case is Blue. Police Blue.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-30-09 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
43. Do we have evidence other than from a report-falsifier, that Gates was uppity?
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