Is the current financial crash and unemployment

[pipoman]

actually caused by artificially propping up the financial and job markets following the signing onto trade agreements which shifted thousands of jobs to other countries? This is my theory. I am not an economist or trade expert, but this seems like the effect feared by the majority of working Americans when we were being sold (we refused to buy) these trade agreements, NAFTA, GATT, MFTS w/China, etc., then summarily had them rammed through by political leaders on both sides of the isle. As I remember it, the changes in lending standards were applied about the same time these agreements were all the rage among the corporatists and Washington politicians. I am no Pat Buchanan, I believe in fair competition, we have not seen the positive results in Mexico and Central America that we were promised, only a mass exodus of US jobs to these places and continued illegal immigration from these countries by people who are trying to improve their lives, which they shouldn't have to do according to the wonks who so favored these agreements.

In fairness and as a matter of disclosure I will say, I was first disenfranchised by my party, the Democratic Party, a.k.a. the labor party, a.k.a. the party of the working person, when I saw a Democratically controlled congress, senate, and executive tongue kissing the repugs while 'fast tracking' the NAFTA down my throat. So, you see, I do come into this philosophy loaded with previous anger over this issue. Am I too jaded to objectively look at the current crisis' without blaming it on these agreements?

[rucky]

1. Partially, but it started in 1981

If you have a spare hour, watch this. You won't regret it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa8ksiqr1Rw

[HopeHoops]

2. I don't think the trade agreements have much of a negative impact.

Frankly, I think Canada is the one getting shafted by NAFTA. I would say most of the problem is a direct result of the free market itself - people either don't know about, don't think about, or don't give a shit about the implications of what they purchase and where and how it is made. Any purchase at WalMart is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Believe it or not, there are plenty of quality items made in the US, including plastic ware. K-Mart has nylon (not plastic) spatulas, ladels, and serving spoons for .89 each and they are US made. I just bought a US made dehydrator - Garden Master 1010. You just have to look. Is it really worth saving a few pennies to funnel massive profits into companies that exploit loose or non-existent labor and environmental laws in other countries? I'm bothered enough by fruit from Mexico, but how about candy? How about candy canes made in China? I would be afraid to find out what the lead content happens to be. We almost didn't have candy canes last year, but I actually found some that were made in the US.

There is also the matter of companies being able to export jobs without penalty. Hershey just shut down a plant IN HERSHEY, PA and shipped the production to a facility in Mexico - 350 jobs went "poof". The only negative to exporting jobs used to be public outrage, but now there's an "everybody is doing it" attitude that makes it okay. The argument that it is "what consumers want" is bullshit. How many times have you been frustrated by someone sitting in a phone bank center in Bangalore with a marginal grasp of English and absolutely no understanding of the product or service they are providing "support" for. If the decision tree questions don't handle the problem, they are lost. If you get upset and want to speak to a manager, they just hang up and you have to call back and go through another 45 minutes of bullshit.

This is not an easy problem to solve. Unfortunately, ignorance is one of the hardest things to overcome. There's a sick irony here. The very people who are most hurt by WalMart are the ones most likely to shop there. I've got an old news clip somewhere about a factory that had moved operations to China because it was the only way to meet WalMart's price/unit demands. One of the former workers from the factory knew this and was still going into WalMart to "save money" because she was on unemployment and had to. It isn't just WalMart that's the problem, of course, but they're definitely responsible for establishing some of the most disturbing trends.

On Edit:

Curiously, right after I posted this I found the following on the BBC site: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8169378.stm

[pipoman]

4. This is the biggest problem

with these trade agreements. They have stripped the US of the ability to penalize companies for moving overseas, scrutinize labor practices in other signatories, and places any arbitration on a court which is weighed against the US in general in many respects.

Yes we can vote with our feet, but it is almost too late because nearly everything, both nonessentials and essentials, come from these producers who have exported the jobs.





It isn't rocket science that countries with severely depressed economies because of dictatorial or corrupt political systems are not going to just change because we decide to try to help their people by sending jobs. They should be required to change befor we enter into these agreements, this has long been my position.

[KG]

3. the recent crash stem from a confluence of many factors, of which the one you describe is certainly

a part.

[Laelth]

5. I think you have all right to be angry. k&r n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[notesdev]

6. There are many factors

the vast majority of which can be boiled down to simple 'stealing'.

There are too many ways to steal successfully if you know the right people. They got so good at it that it's hard for anything good to get going when there's a hefty fraud and graft tax on everything.

[pipoman]

7. This plays into my frustration too

I do feel that when these agreements were signed with the support of the majority of Repubs AND Dems, the vast, VAST majority of the USAmerican people opposed them, yet the President (Clinton), Congress, and the ('fast track') Senate said, "FU, you stupid lemmings, we will do what ever we wish", and bound us to these agreements for decades to come. I really don't know if we can ever recover from this current crisis while still having more and more jobs flush out of the US. I am a generally optimistic person, but I am not seeing where our recovery is going to come from...so yes, theft..

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. It's a catch-22 economy.

In order for the economy to "recover", people have to start buying things again with money they don't have. If they can buy anything, they'll buy the stuff that's cheapest in order to save money. They can't afford to buy "Made in the USA" products because they're too expensive. The reason they're too expensive is labor costs. The "Made in the USA" companies have to go overseas to get cheap labor so they can compete with the other companies making the same products that consumers will buy. When the companies leave, the people lose their jobs which means they can't buy stuff. The banks won't lend them money to buy stuff because they're out of work or their jobs are threatened.

Catch-22

Trade restrictions won't work because China could so easily retaliate and literally destroy our economy by not buying our debt. And, demanding that China raise wages, remove tariffs, etc, is in essence, demanding that they destroy their own economy to save ours. The "level playing field" isn't likely to be produced by raising the low end, but by lowering the high end.

Catch-22

For the American workers, it will mean having no job or a job with lower wages.

[Greyhound]

9. Pretty much. The trade agreements were the mechanism wherein power was

transferred from governments (The People) to the corporations, so the results have been (and were) quite predictable. The people in all the member (victim) nations have suffered while the corporations have gained unprecedented prosperity.

So, over the last three decades we have seen both the wealth and power (related but separate elements) transferred to the parasite class in quantities not seen here before.
:kick: & R

[pipoman]

10. So where is the outrage

and why no real movement to remove ourselves from these unfair trade agreements? We were told when we signed on that with notice we can remove ourselves from them at any time...it's about time IMO.

[Greyhound]

11. My question, too.

The only theory I have is that we have become so disconnected and ignorant of how things work that the vast majority haven't put it together yet. They know they don't like the agreements, but usually cannot express why with any clarity and so their reasoning is easily shot down.

They also have an incredibly naive faith in anything they are told by anyone that has the "badge of authority".