Woman accused of killing newborn ate brain, police said

[sixmile]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-woman-accused-killing-baby-072709,0,3935740.story

SAN ANTONIO - A woman charged with murdering her 3½-week-old son used a knife and two swords to dismember the child and ate parts of his body, including his brain, before stabbing herself in the torso and slicing her own throat, police said Monday.

Otty Sanchez, 33, is charged with capital murder in the death of her infant son, Scott Wesley Buchholtz-Sanchez. She was recovering from her wounds at a hospital, and was being held on $1 million bail.

San Antonio Police Chief William McManus said the early Sunday morning attack occurred a week after the child's father moved out. The child's aunt and two cousins, ages 5 and 7, were in the house, but none were harmed.

McManus, who appeared uncomfortable as he addressed reporters, said Sanchez apparently ate the child's brain and some other body parts. She also tore his face off, chewed off three of his toes and decapitated the infant before stabbing herself.

``It's too heinous for me to describe it any further,'' McManus said.

Officers called to Sanchez's house at about 5 a.m. local time Sunday found her sitting on the couch ``screaming that she killed her baby,'' police spokesman Joe Rios said. They found the boy's body in a bedroom.

Police said Sanchez said the devil told her to kill her son.

``It was a spontaneous utterance,'' McManus said. ``She said she was hearing voices.''

Sanchez does not yet have a lawyer, police said, and was hospitalized in San Antonio. The police declined to identify other family members.

No one answered the door Monday at Sanchez's home, where the blinds were shut. A hopscotch pattern and red hearts were drawn on the walk leading up to the house.

Neighbor Luis Yanez said everyone on the street was appalled by the news.

``Why would you do that to your baby?'' said Yanez, 23, a tire technician. ``It brings chills to you. They can't defend themselves.''

end story

Posted to give some perspective to all the inanities discussed here sometimes. There are REAL HORRORS here on Earth.

[BlooInBloo]

1. For fucking fuck's sake. WTF is wrong with people.

:(

[sixmile]

3. Yes. What the fuck, indeed

The devil? The fucking devil? This evil thing will never see jail time.

[Maru Kitteh]

76. The non-religious psychotic would believe it was Hitler, or the government, etc.

It's the psychosis that causes the behavior, not the belief system.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

26. It's called mental illness.

Her disease did that horrific thing to her baby. Her "punishment" will be going on anti-psychotic meds and discovering what she did. :(

[BlooInBloo]

32. Thanks for the remote diagnosis.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

70. She's hearing voices ---

classic psychosis symptom.

[Fire1]

91. LOL!!! n/t

[me b zola]

169. Decapitated baby's mother had psychosis diagnosis

Decapitated baby's mother had psychosis diagnosis


SAN ANTONIO - Relatives of the Texas mother of a 3 1/2-week-old boy found dismembered in his bedroom said she was diagnosed with schizophrenia and postpartum psychosis...

~more at link~

http://kai03.qwest.com/WindowsLive/Media/News/NewsDetail.aspx?cat=National&id=[e-mail]&client=gadget&qid=0

[moc]

173. And yet, the baby was left in her care....

So much for child protective services.

[Hansel]

176. Yeah, because that was a tough one.

Sometimes things are just obvious to most people.

[fire lake]

42. Thank you!!!!!!! They want to slap capital charges on a person

who is hearing voices and doesn't know what the fuck she is doing! I cannot understand how otherwise intelligent people don't get that if someone is nuts, you cannot say that they are also cruel. Psychosis is what it is: total losing of one's bearings.

[Maru Kitteh]

81. Welcome to DU and you are entirely correct. This is why the insanity defense exists.

Because insanity does exist. Nobody asks to be this broken, and this kind of illness is just that, an illness - not a moral failing.

[backscatter712]

84. I've known a few schizophrenics.

Some of them have done some truly fucked up things while they were ill, though nothing quite so horrible as what's in the OP.

But when you give them medication, and proper psychiatric treatment, and get their brains chemistry working correctly, they're the nicest folks.

[malaise]

35. Clearly she is mentally ill

That's what's wrong here.

[AngryAmish]

37. I hate that every time a woman does something evil it is always called mental illness

It infantilizes women.

BUT...in this case...knowing the facts available to us...I completely agree with you.

[Maru Kitteh]

83. No, it doesn't. There is nothing infantile about mental illness.

Among men, or women.

[Silent3]

161. I see it more as a greater readiness to demonize men...

...than to infantilize women. I'm glad that most people seem ready to see a story like this and give the benefit of the doubt toward it being insanity and not criminal evil -- but I don't think a man who did the same thing would get that same benefit of the doubt from nearly as many people.

[springhill]

141. She is obviously mentally very sick...................

that is the only explanation.

[mamaleah]

2. Well, she obviously needs help. Permanently.

Nevermind prison. She needs to be in an institution for life. Never ever ever around any human that she can harm again.

[BanzaiBonnie]

post partum psychosis?

They'll most likely be looking at that possibility while she's in the hospital.

[TheWraith]

15. I don't think that that's capable of making someone hear voices.

This goes far beyond anything I've ever heard attributed to postpartum.

[Dogmudgeon]

28. There is such a thing as post-partum psychosis

It is an extremely powerful, dangerous psychosis. One of its major symptoms is hearing authoritative auditory hallucinations -- the voice of God is the common one in this culture.

Postpartum depression is its much milder cousin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis">Wikipedia article on Postpartum Psychosis -- a good intro, but subject to Wikipedia caveats.

Postpartum mental illness of some sort may be nearly universal. This group of illnesses demands a lot more attention than it has been getting.

--d!

[Fire1]

94. Oh that's convenient. Hearing 'voices' and it just HAS to be

God. What else is new.

[Maru Kitteh]

102. No, it's not convenient, it's unmitigated living hell that you or I can't imagine.

And "God" doesn't have anything to do with it. The non-religious psychotic with hallucinations hears the President, or a secret government agent, or space aliens.

I wouldn't even wish schizophrenia/acute psychosis on George W. Bush. Of course, that's because I prefer he be lucid for a trial, conviction and imprisonment but that's another post.

For the acute psychotic/schizophrenic, life itself is a continual horror movie that surrounds them as completely as the air they breathe. They cannot trust their own eyes, thoughts, or ears. They cannot trust themselves to know what is real.

[springhill]

142. Brook Sheilds descirbed it very well............

She was afraid that she would do something to her baby and herself. It was very scary.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

29. Not depression, psychosis --

PP psychosis can include hearing voices telling the mother to harm the baby and/or herself.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

62. the key word is psychosis - and hearing voices can be part of that

when the brain chemistry is fouled up, people can "hear" voices, "see" things that aren't there,
or even "smell" odors that are not there.

That is because the chemistry affects how the brain works and it is the brain that controls
these things.

[backscatter712]

89. Psychosis doesn't just cause hallucinations - it screws up your thinking.

John Hinkley was under the impression that if he assassinated Ronald Reagan, Jodie Foster would have the hots for him. And somehow, this was all perfectly acceptable.

To you or me, no, of course it doesn't make sense. But the wiring in the brain of a person with schizophrenia is completely messed up.

That's what I'm thinking in this case - schizophrenia, or bipolar disorder, or post-partum psychosis.

This woman needs treatment, not punishment.

[superduperfarleft]

108. But I thought it was demons!!!!

Burn the witch! She's possessed by the debil!!!

Oh, sorry, got carried away with the tone of this thread.

[PSzymeczek]

92. It's rare, but has happened.

Remember Andrea Yates? That was determined to be the result of postpartum psychosis. That's one of the reasons she got a second trial. Why does it always seem to happen in Texas?

[Saphire]

114. Andrea Yates? She was hearing voices.

[KakistocracyHater]

147. yes it could be just that, I picked up a book about post partum depression

I can't recall the title & it was about 5 years ago; this nurse had been involved with the treatment of post partum when she herself had a child & consequently suffered the same. She said it got worse with her second child, she expressed shock that she was not able to recognize the symptons in herself. But I recall there was only a little note about the really bad post-partum psychosis. For "regular" ppd I think it's quite average: 1 in 1000 women/girls get it.

..."Many new moms experience the baby blues after childbirth. An estimated 10 percent of new moms experience a more severe form of emotional distress known as postpartum depression. Rarely, an extreme form of postpartum depression known as postpartum psychosis develops after childbirth."....
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/postpartum-depression/DS00546

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/postpartumdepression.html
..."Unlike the "baby blues," postpartum depression does not go away quickly. Very rarely, new moms develop something even more serious. They may stop eating, have trouble sleeping and become frantic or paranoid. Women with this condition usually need to be hospitalized."...

http://www.breastbabyproducts.com/postpartumdepression.html Risk Factors for Post-partum

I think knoweledge of WHAT is at stake should be part of sex education, having a child should be treated very seriously. It's about more than baby showers & fun-especially teen moms-to-be: they should be told all about this.

[TreasonousBastard]

I don't know about for life, but, yeah, this isn't evil...

this is insanity.

Who, no matter how "evil" would knowingly do such a thing?

[mamaleah]

13. Why not for life?

Sorry, there are some things that unforgettable and unforgivable. Allowing someone to go back out into society after killing, dismembering, and eat her own infant is disturbing.

[rollingrock]

31. No, she needs to be put to death

why waste anymore taxpayer money caring for these hopeless wackjobs.

[cali]

43. no. the death sentence is not the answer. ever.

she needs to be in an institution. She's profoundly mentally ill. And you don't need to be a shrink to state that with confidence.

[uppityperson]

48. DAMN STRAIGHT!!! KILL ALL THE MENTALLY ILL!!

It will cost a whole lot less than getting them hel!

:sarcasm: just in case

[rollingrock]

51. The violently mentally ill who are homicidal should be put to death

I never said all of them should.

Most of the mentally ill don't pose a physical threat to anyone or go around hacking people's heads off. Those who do, should be treated like any other violent criminal.

[uppityperson]

54. Rather than getting them treatment, kill them. Gotcha.

Thanks for your concern

[rollingrock]

56. You can't cure the criminally insane

like I said, they should be treated like any other homicidal criminal.

you can put these people in an insane asylum for the rest of their lives, but what kind of life is that for anyone?? better to put them out of their misery and the taxpayers misery as well!

[uppityperson]

58. You CAN treat post partum psychosis and schizophrenia.

[rollingrock]

61. How?

by locking them up in an insane asylum for the rest of their lives?? but what kind of life is that for anyone?? what's the point?? better to put them out of their misery and the taxpayers misery as well!

is the point to somehow rehabilitate them and one day release them back into society?? there's no guarantee they're not going to end up hacking up another innocent person! who's neighborhood are you going to stick them in?? what neighborhood would be willing to take that risk? How about yours? would you like to have this woman as your neighbor? You're just playing Russian Roulette with people's lives.

[cali]

72. no. through medication. medication can be remarkably effective

not saying it always is, but quite often it works to control delusions. And by the way, I worked as an advocate for the mentally ill- including those in prisons and in the State facility. I've known people who committed heinous acts while psychotic who became quite rational while taking medication.

[rollingrock]

80. The woman behaved normally

before she went psycho and hacked up her baby. The point being, crazy people don't always appear to be crazy. Take Jeffrey Dahmer for example, the guy who hacked up his victims and put them in the fridge before he ate them. No one even suspected what he was doing because he appeared to lead a normal life.

On another note, medications can often be the CAUSE of violent outbursts. The FDA for example, has mandated warning labels on ALL common antidepressant medication which warn that these medications can cause people to kill themselves (SUICIDE warning label). But suicide is an understatement. If the FDA were being honest, the label would warn that taking these drugs can cause you to harm yourself OR harm others. Since anyone who is capable of harming themself is obviously capable of harming others. Better yet, they should be banned altogether...but in the US they are frequently prescribed to people of all ages, including teens and young children. Keep in mind, the people running the FDA are frequently the same people who were working for Big Pharma.

Hence, I suspect this woman could have been on one of these medications when she killed the baby. Doping her up with these very questionable pharmaceutical drugs will just make her condition worse.

[Maru Kitteh]

101. The stupid coming out of your keyboard is making my eyes sad.

SSRI's and similar antidepressants do not cause auditory hallucinations and are not associated with increased homicidal behavior. Hallucinations are the blinking neon lights of psychosis.

Psychosis and depression are not the same illness. Psychosis is not treated with antidepressants. If you break your big toe, I would not treat it by applying a bandage your ear.

You propose that this woman acted normally, but yet you say she was probably on medication? How do you reconcile that? You also say that people should be killed for being legally insane, and that antidepressants make people legally insane. huh.

Know what else you are so very wrong about? She was NOT acting normally before this psychotic break.

"Otty Sanchez's aunt, Gloria Sanchez, said her niece had been "in and out" of a psychiatric ward, and that the hospital called several months ago looking to check up on her. She did not elaborate on the nature of her niece's health problems."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/27/otty-sanchez-woman-accuse_n_245627.html

Just. Stop. It's painfully obvious you have no clue at all what you're talking about. You're in way over your depth and every post you make confirms it.

[rollingrock]

103. Your ignorance is painful to see

You write this:

"Otty Sanchez's aunt, Gloria Sanchez, said her niece had been "in and out" of a psychiatric ward, and that the hospital called several months ago looking to check up on her. She did not elaborate on the nature of her niece's health problems."


Yeah, a lot of good that psychiatric ward did for her, huh? I wonder how much drugs her caretakers pumped her up with before she was released and went on a violent rampage? Hmmm?

[superduperfarleft]

109. Ignorance. Huh.

If that's not the pot calling the kettle black.

[Posteritatis]

111. It's more the pot calling the pumpkin black in this case, or something similar. (nt)

[Maru Kitteh]

113. This orange gourd thanks you. :-p

[Maru Kitteh]

121. Gosh. I guess I'm going to have to simplify for you so you can try to grasp the basics.

My apologies in advance for all the big words and complete sentences.


Depression is not psychosis.

Psychosis is not treated with antidepressants.

Antidepressants (which you insisted this woman was probably on) do not induce psychosis.


Psychosis Definition:
Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality, typically including delusions (false ideas about what is taking place or who one is), hallucinations (seeing or hearing things which aren't there), and disorganized thinking.



SSRI side effects (none of which are psychosis):

# anhedonia
# apathy
# nausea/vomiting
# drowsiness or somnolence
# headache
# bruxism
# extremely vivid and strange dreams
# dizziness
# fatigue
# mydriasis
# urinary retention
# changes in appetite
# changes in sleep
# weight loss/gain
# bone fractures and injuries
# changes in sexual behaviour
# increased feelings of depression and anxiety (which may sometimes provoke panic attacks)
# tremors
# autonomic dysfunction including orthostatic hypotension
# akathisia
# liver or renal impairment
# suicidal ideation (thoughts of suicide)
# photosensitivity


If you keep digging like this, you'll be in China in no time dear.

[Posteritatis]

124. Also note that the side effects aren't universal and tend not to all show up in anyone getting them

My sister did get the suicidal ideation one from her first antidepressant, which was especially lovely since she was a newly-diagnosed bipolar in a high-stress school surrounded by philosophy majors who don't believe in mental illness, but none of the others that we could see, and she's fine on her current medication.

People latching onto the side effects ("she was on antidepressants! No wonder she (action) and (action) and (action)!") need to get a basic grasp of probability, to say nothing of the nature of side effects. Too many people assume that anyone taking any psychiatric medication will get all of them or something similarly inane.

[Maru Kitteh]

126. Yes, important information! Thanks for adding that.

I'm so glad to hear your sister is doing well.

[rollingrock]

132. SSRI drugs aren't just used to treat depression...dear.

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or serotonin-specific reuptake inhibitor<1> (SSRIs) are a class of compounds typically used as antidepressants in the treatment of depression, anxiety disorders, and some personality disorders.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor


Educate yourself.

[uppityperson]

155. She never said they were...dear.

Seems like you are classifying anxiety disorders and some personality disorders as psychosis. Which they aren't.

Speaking of educating oneself

[Maru Kitteh]

87. So you understand that they are not responsible for their actions - but you would kill them

Let's repeat that.

You understand that they are not responsible for their crime.

You think they should die.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mamaleah]

100. She needs treatment. But that needs to be permanent.

Not a few years and "ohhhh...you! it's ok. You are better now. We all know you won't kill and consume your next child".

[Posteritatis]

60. Let's sterilize the rest, too! That worked out well last time, right? (nt)

[Thickasabrick]

93. That's some sick shit dude. nt

[closeupready]

59. WTF?

Your gutbucket outlook on life makes me puke. :puke:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

64. punishing mentally ill is useless, but death might be a mercy to her

if she becomes sane enough to realize what she has done.

Who could live with that horror?

And she isn't likely to be cured of her illness, it will likely depend on
meds that must be taken every day and she likely will always require secure
monitoring for ever.

Medicine might make her capable of realizing what she did, which would be
the worst torture in the world.

[Hepburn]

69. For a second, I thought I had stumbled into the Free Republic...

...:puke:

[Posteritatis]

79. I dunno, DU's always had a hate on for the mentally ill too. (nt)

[mamaleah]

98. No death penalty, but life in an institution.

Dp is about vengeance and I think "justice" is better served if she never sees the light of day outside the institution grounds.

[RedCappedBandit]

164. You tell us

You're the one advocating for the more expensive option (death penalty)

[babylonsister]

4. Shudder. Horrific. nt

[NeedleCast]

5. Mental Illness is real

As easy as it is to turn this mother into a monster, it sounds like she had a serious (and I'd bet) untreated mental condition.

[sixmile]

9. This thread will soon become a debate about "mental health"

but I don't have a shred of human emotion for this monster. She gave up the right to exist on this planet the second she made the first knife cut into her baby.

[NeedleCast]

14. That's sad for you

People effected by mental distorders usually have very little control over what they do, especially those who are not receiving treatment...and in this country that's a lot of poeple who are, for one reason or another, not getting the help they need.

You think she "gave up her right to exist on this planet" because she has a mental disorder? Says a lot about you.

[sixmile]

16. It is ultimately a court's decision to make

but in my opinion a human who ritualistically butchers and cannibalizes another living human (a baby, no less) is not fit for life on this planet.
Is this act not evil enough for you?

[uppityperson]

18. Severe mental illness=evil?

It is too bad you do not understand about mental illness and what you write tells us a lot abut you.

Edited to add the question mark to clarify that I was asking this of the poster I am replying to since they are indicating they believe that.

[Posteritatis]

Please give us a list of what mental illnesses consist of "evil." Be specific. (nt)

[uppityperson]

40. None. Perhaps you meant that for the poster I was replying to, since they said that. nt

[Posteritatis]

50. Ack! Reading comprehension failure; I apologize. (nt)

[uppityperson]

53. no problem, I edited to clarify also. nt

[Dorian Gray]

71. I agree...

that this person is mentally ill, but the act she committed is so heinous and objectively immoral (i hesitate to use the word evil because of religious connotations, but.... it's what I would use) that it is difficult to separate the crime from the perpetrator's illness. I hope that she gets proper treatment, and if she can become mentally healthy, she'll have to live with the horror of her actions. But, regardless of the ability to treat her, she is a danger to society as a whole right now, and she needs to be separated from it and into some sort of mental institution.

[NeedleCast]

25. At risk of getting into a "what's evil" argument

Is the act evil? Probably. But it seems in this case reading the news story is more than enough for you and you're happy to skip straight from news at six to getting a noose ready and locating the nearest tree. What you seem to fail (utterly) at understanding is that this is not the behavior of a sane person and like it or not, insane people can do horrific things. That's why our criminal court system has a whole section of law for dealing with things like this and why we don't just get a rope and hang em high...as you apparently want done.

Attitudes like yours are - I generally find - those of people who have never had a close family member or loved one with a severe mental issue. Whether bi-polar, schitzo, psyhchotic...these people often do not operate on a sane level. A lot of these illnesses (and they are documented illnesses despite what the cop shows make them out to be) are treatable or at least controllable with proper medication and/or counseling...but with the horrid state of mental health care in the US, these people often don't get the treatment they need.

If a mental health issue is the underlying reason for this terrible crime, then the act is not really evil, it's uncontrollable. For a faction of what we spend on defense in a year, people like this would hopefully be getting the treatment they need and acts like this would be far less common.

[Odin2005]

30. Calling the mentally ill "evil" is bigotry against the mentally ill and should not be tolerated...

...on a liberal message board. The ACT was wrong, but the woman has no responsibility for it because of her mental state.

[Hepburn]

34. +1....n/t

[LeftishBrit]

77. Agreed.

Even in Victorian times, it was recognized that some people were too mentally ill to be criminally responsible.

She needs treatment, and to be kept in a hospital or institution until and unless she becomes sane enough not to be a danger to others or herself. But not to be lynched.

[varelse]

118. Agreed - it is bigotry and it has no place here

This tragedy, and others like it, may be rare but could be preventable with better medical care and early intervention:

http://www.pregnancy-info.net/postpartum_psychosis.html

Postpartum Psychosis Signs
Although the onset of symptoms can occur at anytime within the first three months after giving birth, women who have postpartum psychosis usually develop symptoms within the first two to three weeks after delivery. Postpartum psychosis symptoms usually appear quite suddenly; in 80% of cases, the psychosis occurs three to 14 days after a symptom-free period.

Signs of postpartum psychosis include:

Hallucinations
Delusions
Illogical thoughts
Insomnia
Refusing to eat
Extreme feelings of anxiety and agitation
Periods of delirium or mania
Suicidal or homicidal thoughts

Who Is At Risk?
Women with a personal history of psychosis, bipolar disorder or schizophrenia have an increased risk of developing postpartum psychosis. Likewise, women who have a family history of psychosis, bipolar disorder or schizophrenia have a greater chance of developing the disorder...

Making an example of this woman by killing her or labeling her as "evil" and unredeemable will not prevent other tragedies from occurring under similar circumstances. Improving mental health care generally and postpartum followup care specifically could do so. Yet another case where universal health care would be helpful.

[closeupready]

148. I agree.

n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

106. The idea that illness is evil belongs in the dark ages along with a flat earth and talking snakes.

I can't believe this much stupid still exists in the world, especially on DU.

[uppityperson]

17. Thank you for putting what I was thinking into polite words

you are much more polite than I was going to be. thank you

[heliarc]

19. Sounds like a lot of emotion you've reserved for her actually...

A lot of hatred. She sounds sick to me... should definitely be locked up, but I also can't fathom the depth of twisted agony she must be in over her actions and her illness. She is truly in a Hell of her own making.

[Odin2005]

27. She was in post-partum PSYCHOSIS. She was insane.

During the final month or so of pregnancy the fetus can sometimes "canibalize" the fat in the mother's nerves for it's own nerves and that can cause psychosis.

[undeterred]

119. Yeah, she's probably just a really mean woman

who was hungry and having a bad day.

:eyes:

[ima_sinnic]

157. if one of yr friends or relatives developed a serious mental illness,

you'd be screaming that he/she had no "right to exist" and should be swiftly executed?

after living with a schizophrenic for 15 yrs, I can say with all confidence that you don't know anything at all about this issue. Your judgment is duly noted and dismissed as totally ignorant.

[Arkansas Granny]

I have to agree with you there. These are not the actions of a sane person.

[musette_sf]

22. + 1

[panader0]

6. postpartum depression in the extreme?

I say it's too bad she recovered from her wounds. Now the taxpayers can take care of her for 50 years in a mental institution.

[Initech]

7. That is fucking insane to say the least.

:yoiks:

[MineralMan]

8. What a shame that mental illness is so difficult to find

treatment for if you are poor or uneducated.

[Posteritatis]

21. Even if you aren't, sometimes

Even around here there's enough people that believe "mentally ill" and "bad person" or "intrinsically conservative" or something are the same thing; imagine what people who could afford diagnosis and treatment would do if they're in communities which are even more backwards with their views.

[fire lake]

44. It's not always the case, especially with postpartum...

I read a tragic story of a wealthy and beautiful young woman who jumped out a window because of her delusions after giving birth. Sometimes loved ones don't tune in to when others start to lose it.

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. Another heterosexual religious murderer - I hope she gets the chair

n/t

[cali]

49. She is profoundly mentally ill. period.

and I love how illiberal half of you jokers turn out to be.

[leveymg]

11. Thanks for sharing that.

I practically never unrecommend. But, in this case, I'll make an exception.

Is this what you spend your day thinking about?

[sixmile]

20. Why should I waste my beautiful mind about things like that?

I think it's as relevant, real and potent as any story.

[Liberal_in_LA]

12. No need for a trial. Send her straight to a mental hospital. Poor baby.

[proteus_lives]

23. That lunatic needs to be in a padded room for the rest of her life.

Brain-eating? :puke:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

33. gotta hide this thread fast. keep accidently glancing. jsut horrible

[Cairycat]

36. There is a range of postpartum psychiatric illnesses

The least severe would be the "baby blues" that many women experience in the first few weeks after birth. The causes can be the shift of hormones from a pregnant to non-pregnant state, combined with exhaustion.

More severe is postpartum depression. This can be self-limiting and last a few weeks or months, or may need treatment. Bi-polar issues can appear or reappear in the postpartum period also.

Then there is postpartum psychosis. It can come with hallucinations and delusions. It certainly sounds to me like that is what this mother was suffering from. She would not have been sane enough to realize what she was doing was so heinous, at the time of doing it. She definitely needs treatment. Personally I don't think incarceration would help. When this mother is treated and comes back to sanity, she will have to live with the thought his gruesome death - punishment enough, in my opinion.

[Withywindle]

38. My mind tries to mitigate the insanity of the world sometimes.

When I first saw the headline, my first thought was, OK, she ate cow brain or monkey brain or something like that, she had mad cow disease or a parasite or something like that, tragic.

Then I read more.


OMG



:scared: :puke: :cry:

[Fumesucker]

39. Poor child..

And as someone who suffers from a hereditary chemical imbalance in my brain I have a bit of sympathy for the mother too.. She is going to have to live with what she did if and when she is ever "cured" of her problem, and I'm fairly well convinced she has some sort of mental problem, quite possibly biochemical in nature.

This has to be one of the more ghastly things I have heard of.

I suspect I will not sleep tonight without the help of drugs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. I feel bad for the cops who responded. n/t

[aquart]

45. Oh, so true.

We require them to maintain calm good sense in all situations, but we'd give trauma treatment to any innocent bystander who wandered into this...

[Blue_Tires]

46. what the.... that's FUCKING SICK!!

[ContinentalOp]

47. I have to agree with other DUers who have asked details like this not to be included in the subject

Maybe something like "Horrific infant murder: gory details within" might be more appropriate.

[Posteritatis]

68. In this case it's just the headline verbatim

If this was LBNd it would require that; it might have been and wound up moved here or something.

[ContinentalOp]

88. Which is precisely why I don't read newspapers. If I wanted this kind of tabloid bullshit...

there are plenty of places that I can get it. I'm not sure what the relevance is to a Democratic political website. :shrug:

[Fire1]

129. I have to 'roger that.' This REALLY is not the appropriate

venue. :puke:

[WorseBeforeBetter]

74. I agree.

The OP stated s/he posted to remind us of the horrors here on Earth. We're all well aware of the horrors here on Earth. I question the motives of people who post things like this. Discussion always breaks down into: 1) "She's mentally ill" or a "substance abuser"; and 2) "Fry her!". We get it.

<Hide thread.>

[backscatter712]

52. That's completely psycho. As in literally psychotic.

She doesn't belong in prison, she belongs in the psych ward.

This sounds like schizophrenia to me.

[bridgit]

55. Stupid cranked out/cracked out bitch it don't matter which...

[uppityperson]

57. Mentally ill=stupic cranked out/cracked out bitch?

Good lord people are clueless about mental illness

[bridgit]

73. don't know allot about substance abuse ya'poor thing do'ya?

you're prepared to give this behavior a pass because in your opinion she needs what again? a clue? a cessation from her rapid thoughts? a shopping spree? a box of Calgon? quite beyond the 'mental illness' you so blithely refer to; this story is a glimpse onto a level of disrupted psychiatric architecture riddled with random rolling thunder and lighting bolts, hm, i wonder if in the event we weren't so inclined just how we'd go about replicating such an effect oh never mind, i'm sure it doesn't really matter...you can refer to it in whatever way makes you feel personally happy inside that's the important thing, but this woman needed to start slowing way the fuck down sometime ago

and please, don't spittle to me about mental illness until you're able to convince me that you're doing so for some other reason than to plant your flag in someone else's back

[uppityperson]

152. Amazing what you write. eom

[cali]

75. we don't know that this had anything to do with drugs. And yeah, it matters a fuck of a lot

whether she voluntarily took drugs and had a psychotic break or whether she simply had a psychotic break.

[bridgit]

82. Lilith, it's not like these things don't happen IRL, part of the tag at HuffPo however...

is that the police were told, maybe by someone that cared for her even less that the dude that left her and their baby you know, like dumping on her setting her up as an irresponsible, drug taking kook; but that she had been to Austin to use drugs:

Otty Sanchez, Woman Accused Of Killing Newborn, Ate Brain: Police Jul 27, 2009 ... Otty Sanchez, Woman Accused Of Killing Newborn, Ate Brain: Police .... told police she believed that Sanchez went to Austin to use drugs. ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../otty-sanchez-woman-accuse_n_245627.html - 1 hour ago - Similar -

But it's really hard to find cause I looked, either way: this conduct is quite beyond even a bad bag of the funkiest street dope, quite beyond a garden variety form of mental illness - "too heinous" - this behavior is approaching insanity, and god save her if some more common, ancillary matter that speaks to lifestyle is developed or some authority will be pushing Criminally Insane if for no other reason than to justify their own salary

[Arkansas Granny]

78. Per the AP article, it sound like she suffered from mental illness. No mention of drug use.

Otty Sanchez's aunt, Gloria Sanchez, said her niece had been "in and out" of a psychiatric ward, and that the hospital called several months ago looking to check up on her. She did not elaborate on the nature of her niece's health problems.

"Otty didn't mean to do that. She was not in her right mind," a sobbing Gloria Sanchez told The Associated Press on Monday by phone. She said her family was devastated.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j65NeeVH5ihfMyvu7qiBZWQBV-kgD99N0G1O0

I don't know if even drugs could make someone do something like this if there wasn't some kind of mental illness involved in the bargain.

[bridgit]

86. Mm, in my post just above I mention a HuffPo link where a drug connection...

has been suggested, the story is clearly still developing and I have to go to UPS :(

[Arkansas Granny]

163. I'm sure we'll hear more background on this in days to come.

[Gwendolyn]

128. There was some police report from a couple of years ago...

where her mother reported her missing and claimed she had gone to Austin to do drugs. May or may not have anything to do with this horrible tragedy. But aside from that, it is possible though, to do something similar on drugs. There's an absolutely ghastly pic still floating around the internetz of a man who flayed the skin, nose, eyelids off his own face while under the influence of PCP.

[Hansel]

177. There are plenty of mentally ill people who self-medicate

I'm guessing if drugs played a role at all though, it wasn't the primary cause if her behavior.

Post partum psychosis probably had more to do with it, which is usually associated with some other known underlying mental illness. Hormones rage after a Mother has given birth and can make even the most sane among us act crazy. But when there is an underlying mental illness, the hormones raging can significantly acerbate the symptoms.

It wouldn't be surprising if a Mother tried to escape the escalated symptoms by self-medicating so it's possible illegal drugs were part of the equation. But again, not likely the cause of her behavior.

[closeupready]

63. The people here advocating eugenics can fuck off.

Mental illness is REAL, and it's a problem, the answer to which is not yet more murder. :mad:

[Posteritatis]

65. +1 (nt)

[Fire1]

131. First, eugenics is not murder, Secondly, some people

should not be allowed to procreate. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

[closeupready]

133. Eugenics can indeed be murder. See Nazism for reference.

It can be lesser measures, as well, such as execution of the mentally ill. Well, actually, I guess that's still murder, even if the state sanctions it. But it can also be things like racial laws or laws prohibiting reproduction of short people.

And sorry, regardless of the horrific story which prompted it, your stated opinion (as to 'prohibiting reproduction of some people') is fundamentally offensive to me.

[Fire1]

134. 'Can' be but typically IS NOT by it's true definition. Sorry

my opinion does not meet with your approval.:sarcasm:

[closeupready]

135. Are you denying that there are DU members calling for her execution?

Even despite the obviousness of her mental illness? If so, you need to re-read the thread.

Second, I have a hard time believing that your opinion would meet the approval of any real Democrat. Sure you're on the right board?

[Fire1]

138. You need to re-read my post. I've not denied anything of the

sort. Secondly, I'm as much on the right board as many I've seen here. I don't believe in the death penalty but the fact that this person has a history of mental illness is an indication, to me at least, that she should not have been allowed to procreate.

[Odin2005]

144. I'm sure you Eugenicists would be want us on the autism spectrum to be sterilized, then, right?

:puke:

[Fire1]

145. We're talking PSYCHOSIS here!! Keep up. n/t

[Odin2005]

149. First they came for the schizophrenics, and I did nothing because I wasn't one...

You know the drill.

[uppityperson]

154. +1

[REP]

66. Worst punishment: make her lucid, have her live with what she did

While I agree that putting the mentally ill to death for being mentally ill is a terrible idea, cases like this make me wonder if that's really humane; for example, now that Andrea Yates has treatment for her illness, all she wants to do is die rather than live with what she did. Is that mercy? I'm not advocating executing the mentally ill at all, but it seems treatment is worse punishment than imprisonment without treatment. It's a dilemma.

[Hansel]

178. It really is a dilemma and is really very sad.

It's the stuff Greek tragedies are made of.

By all accounts, Andrea Yates would have been the last person in the world to have ever harmed her kids. What a horrible thing to "wake-up" to reality and find that you have drowned them all. I cannot imagine.

[Myrina]

67. ... what kind of chemicals are inthe water or landfill down there?

I know Eli Lilly used to (supposedly) dump a shitload of chemicals in the water here in Central IN, and other places have found pharma chems in the water table & marine life ... but I have to wonder with TX being 'industrial' and 'oil focused' (not to mention pesticides from farming) ... what might long-term exposure to some of that shit do to a person?

:shrug: :(

[chatnoir]

85. She'd been in and out of a psych ward previously

Relative: Mom who killed baby had mental problems

SAN ANTONIO — An aunt of a Texas woman accused of beheading her 3 1/2-week-old infant son says the woman had been in and out of a psychiatric ward.

Authorities say Otty Sanchez used a knife and two swords to dismember the child and ate some body parts before stabbing herself and slicing her own throat. The 33-year-old is hospitalized and is charged with capital murder. Police said she does not yet have a lawyer.

Gloria Sanchez said Monday that her niece had been "in and out of a psychiatric ward" and that a hospital called several months ago looking to check up on her. She said Otty was "not in her right mind" and that the family is devastated.

Otty Sanchez is being held on $1 million bond.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/6549254.html

[rd_kent]

90. And her in and out of her church

Wonder if there is any correlation there? You betcha!

[Maru Kitteh]

125. Using this incident to push your personal agenda is crass.

Non-religious psychotics just happen to hear other kinds of voices like secret government agents or aliens. The results are dependent on the psychosis, not the belief system.

[rd_kent]

168. Is it?

IMO, and in some psychiatric circles, religion IS seen as a mental illness. Is it crass to try and open the eyes of people to the real dangers that religion poses? I think not. There IS a correlation between religion and mental illness. Here is just one example: http://www.smw.ch/docs/pdf200x/2004/25/smw-10322.PDF

[Hansel]

179. I don't think religion is the cause of mental illness.

But being obsessed with religious can be a symptom of mental illness. Being obsessively religious can be a way of coping with the symptoms and shame of being mentally ill.

I have several members of my family who were mentally ill well before they were religious. Religion became a way of coping with and/or avoiding the symptoms of the illness. To get rid of the guilt or to feel adequately punished for their perceived sinful thoughts.

Also, there is a tendency for some churches, particularly fundamentalist churches, to prey on and manipulated the vulnerable in order to recruit them into their church. It is called proselytizing. Alcoholics, the mentally ill, incarcerated criminals, the insecure and the poor are prime targets because they are easy. This might account for the correlation.

[LisaL]

139. One wonders why the baby wasn't removed before

he was decapitated.
Seems like CPS would take some children from their parents without those children being in obvious danger. Yet this baby remained with the mother.

[KamaAina]

95. Still more in LBN

for all you gluttons for punishment. :(

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3987449&mesg_id=3987449

[fujiyama]

96. I really wish I hadn't read this

Just makes you sick and there's not much to say.

Ultimately, I think there are some people that just shouldn't share society with us. I'm not sure if the death penalty is the answer, but this being (can't call it a woman because it's too fucked up) should never walk outside of a small box of a prison cell at the minimum.

[Fire1]

97. Another case to justify sterilization. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

105. They already tried that. It's called Eugenics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Integrity_Act_of_1924

Writing in a now-infamous 1893 "open letter" published in the Virginia Medical Monthly, Hunter Holmes McGuire, a Richmond physician and president of the American Medical Association, asked for "some scientific explanation of the sexual perversion in the Negro of the present day." McGuire's correspondent, Chicago physician G. Frank Lydston, replied that African-American men raped white women because of "ereditary influences descending from the uncivilized ancestors of our Negroes." Lydston's solution to this problem was not lynching, but surgical castration which "prevents the criminal from perpetuating his kind."

And then there's Carrie Buck: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Buck

Nice friends you got there.

[Fire1]

123. Not quite the same thing believe it or not. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

160. Care to enlighten me as to what the difference is, doctor? n/t

[Supply Side Jesus]

99. One of the worst things I've read in awhile

I could not even begin to imagine how this will affect everyone involved. From the families, Doctors, EMS, Police, everyone....

[BreweryYardRat]

104. Ugh.

Okay, lock her up in a high-security padded cell for the rest of her life and put her on meds to try and treat her. If she's capable of doing this to her own child, she should never be released back into society due to the risk of her going off her meds.

It might be a mercy to kill her rather than treat her -- someone cited Andrea Yates' remorse after being treated -- but we can't make that decision.

[superduperfarleft]

107. To all those calling for the death penalty/sterilization/etc. etc. etc.

This woman is sick, just as sick as someone who has a cold or swine flu or ebola. What she needs is treatment for her condition, not an authoritarian lynch mob calling for her head.

edit: And with proper treatment and medication, I'd be willing to bet she'd return to "normal" pretty quickly, although the grief of what she did is not something I'd wish on anyone.

I never imagined I'd see serious calls for executing the mentally ill or eugenics on DU, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised since children and the mentally feeble have such an easier time accessing the internet these days.

[Posteritatis]

110. They're depressingly common here

There's a surprisingly large chunk of DUers who believe that mental illness is exclusively, or intrinsically, Republican, for instance.

[Saphire]

112. This happened in my neighborhood....about 8 blocks from my home.

She is insane. I think when she's well and realizes what's happened, she'll go insane again.

[Posteritatis]

116. What are they saying about it in your neck of the woods? (nt)

[Saphire]

120. I heard the responding cops are in need of counseling. Imagine so.

Most people I've spoken to are a lot like DU. Some people are really bothered that someone could be that mentally ill, the others think she needs to be shot immediatly.


I haven't had to go by the house yet, but knowing SA, there will be many memorials set up there.

[undeterred]

127. Its very hard to see children harmed

even if you don't have children, but if you do its got to be horrible.

[old mark]

115. I wonder if they will put her into a mental hospital or a prison -

It seems like they could go either way.



mark

[LisaL]

130. My bet is that they stick her into the same place Andrea Yates is at.

[dixiegrrrrl]

122. Well, this thread made my "ignore" button overheat.

[MilesColtrane]

136. ``She said she was hearing voices.''

Too bad the voices didn't say, "Kill yourself".

[LisaL]

137. They probably did. She cut herself as well.

[bridgit]

151. zzzzzzz / -_- \ zzzzzzz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Dk3hyRFYE&feature=PlayList&p=0997E1CF60C239FE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

[Sebastian Doyle]

140. It's just too bad she didn't finish the job on herself.

There ain't no coming back from that. A monster like that cannot be rehabilitated.

[Fire1]

143. I agree that "there ain't no coming back from that" and I don't

think medication is going to help.

[superduperfarleft]

159. You don't think medication will help?

So tell me, doctor, what are your qualifications for making such a diagnosis, especially from nothing more than a newspaper article?

[Fire1]

166. Pose that question to the poster to which I responded. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

167. I targeted you because you're the one advocating eugenics.

That's far nastier than the usual "the mentally ill are possessed by demons and should be burned at the stake" attitude illustrated by the morons all over this thread, including that poster.


So congrats, your position is so incredibly vile as to drown out the other irrational bullshit.

Care to answer the question? On what do you base the opinion that medication won't help?

[Fire1]

170. Ok. execute her instead since that's less vile and perhaps

even more humane.

[superduperfarleft]

171. Oh, so you ARE one of those "the mentally ill are possessed by demons" people.

Gotcha. I thought you were stuck in the early 1900s; turns out I was off by a few centuries.

[Fire1]

172. Whatever. n/t

[gleaner]

146. The legal criteria...

for mental illness that renders the defendant incapable of standing trial and not responsible for his/her own actions it not knowing the difference between "right and wrong." If she was screaming that the devil made her do it, does that show a knowledge of wrong doing? If she claimed she heard voices when she sees the police, is it inevitably true?

Has anyone examined her to see if she actually is mentally ill and incapable of knowing or controlling what she did? Granted the attack was so grisly and over the top with violence that she most likely is insane, but she will have to be examined before anyone can know it for a fact or even bring her to trial.

In the meantime, I wonder why only the baby and not the other two children present? Could it be post partum psychosis? That is a very real mental illness that gets worse each time the woman who suffers from it has another child. One of the prime symptoms is a desire to harm both the baby and herself. I don't know, though. This was way, way extreme in the violence toward the baby, yet she survived her own wounds.

I remember a woman named Diane Downs who shot her children and then herself to make it appear that a third party had attacked all of them. The childrens' wounds were lethal. One died, one was paralyzed and the other had a stroke caused by the surgery to try to save her life which left her paralyzed on one side. Diane's wound was not serious. She shot the children because her boyfriend didn't want to have children. She tried to plead insanity caused by her own abuse as a child, but it did not play. She is serving life without parole in prison. Considering what this mother did, I hope she actually was insane. That would be easier for me to understand than the evil it would take for her to act as she did if she wasn't insane.

[LisaL]

153. Apparently the other two are not her kids.

[backscatter712]

158. Apparently, she has a history of mental illness.

She's been hospitalized before.

[gleaner]

174. Thanks to both you....

and Lisal for giving me information I had missed before. It sounds strange but I'm relieved that she is mentally ill. It was really hard for me to think of her doing what she did if she was capable of controlling her actions.

[Atticus]

150. A post which, so far, has spurred over 140 replies,

many of them thoughtful and well-considered and well-written. But, the thread is "unrecommended" because---why?

Is it just because it deals with a very ugly and uncomfortable topic?

Does that render it worthless?

[stewartcolbert08]

156. Shaking my head

:puke: Makes me sick to my stomach. Poor baby boy.

[hayu_lol]

162. Not one comment in this thread concerning the...

bailout of the husband/father/SO a week before this happened. Not one word about his culpability/responsibility for this happening or about his failure to take action on behalf of his child.

All the blame is pointed at the woman(almost always the case--think about the Yates case). The woman is sick/mentally unbalanced to be sure. What did the husband/father do to protect his child or his wife? He bailed.

Lets at least try to get some balance in this and other similar topics.

[gleaner]

175. You are right.....

The father should have taken action to protect his baby if he knew that the baby's mother was mentally ill. I got that information today from another poster in this thread. I didn't realize it before, or I would have addressed it. I had thought that the father leaving might have helped trigger the violence toward the baby, maybe as a form of revenge toward him. I don't think that any more.

If he knew she was not in contact with reality, was hearing voices and could be dangerous; or if he knew that she was acting out in a strange and erratic way he should have acted.He should have taken the child. Better yet, he should have insured the safety of the child and then tried to help the mother get the help that she needed to keep her from hurting herself or others.

I do think of the Yates case, and I think Rusty Yates was equally responsible for the deaths of his children. Andrea Yates had a history of post partum psychosis. As I said in a previous post that can get worse after a first experience, with the birth of each subsequent child. Andrea's doctor warned Rusty, but Rusty largely ignored him, and insisted that Andrea keep having children even when it was not in her or the childrens' best interest. He sure lapped up the sympathy that came his way, and shed crocodile tears in public, but I wonder if he ever has or ever will feel responsible in any way?

I wonder if the father of this baby will ever feel that he should have done more? Many men do feel that the children are only the responsibility of their mother. They are wrong. It usually works out so that the mothers do bear more than their share of childrearing, but that is a societal perception too, and not a reality. If you help create a child, you are just as responsible and necessary to that child as the child's mother.

[dugaresa]

165. clearly she is insane and to be honest with how horrific her crime is

i don't know that she will ever be able to deal with what she did if she were ever to become rational again.

i will let the mental health authorities and the justice system figure this one out.

my condolences to her family and for her child.