those lecturing on our "cop hating/bashing". crowley lied.

[seabeyond]

this is what all of us have been saying. why we dont trust and have faith in our police force across the nation. and how many of those cops KNEW crowley lied on his report yet bashed obama and justified the arrest

crowley lied.

and people on this board demanded we not question.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Don't bother. They don't care that cops lie. They don't care that cops cover for lying cops.

[seabeyond]

2. i will BOTHER until the day i diiiiiiiii.....

lol, ya ya ya. a bit dramatic. but damn it pisses me off the sanctimonious holier than thous telling me... and worse, black people, to suck it up, respect, be submissive, no eye contact, lower head.... and give them the respect they deserve.


i dont respect lyin dogs.

and hundred times worse for the black community. yes i know. i am the least effected.

[Renaissance Man]

18. Yep...

..throwing themselves behind that never-to-be-questioned blue wall of silence.

:sarcasm:

[UndertheOcean]

46. nevermind , they are not worth it

[seabeyond]

56. every once in a while i see and hear and listen to a few that have the integrity

to accept reality/truth. and that makes it worth it.

[RoccoR5955]

3. It's called the "blue mafia" for a reason. n/t

[seabeyond]

4. hell yes. and if the people on the board would have been at least a little reasonable

i wouldnt be nearly as pissed.

person after person telling us we dont have the right to question. how dare we not trust. bad bad

they are more the porblem then the lyin cops. cause they are the ones along with all of us to stop it. demand it. but when you have all these people with head buried in sand

this is what you have

[Howardx]

33. in all fairness

from what i saw most of the people with that attitude had under 25 posts if you get my meaning.

[seabeyond]

35. a lot. and there are a too many that have been here a while. the whole authoritarian

crowd. comes in all ways.

willing to throw out all consitutional rights and laws to "feel" safe in airports

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Well in fairness to police departments, here are a few broad strokes that

unfortunately they apply

Police misconduct flows from the top, bad chiefs, bad cops.

Also, Cambridge Mass is in the East.. which tends to have much of a problem with this... the same goes for the South... but a rule of thumb (LAPD is the big exception to that damn rule), the further West you go, the better Internal Affairs are. If this happened in my town, and yes it has happened, the case ended up in the USSC... right about now Internal Affairs would be involved,

It happened in the 1980s when the PD was really bad locally. To make a long story short, an African American Professor was arrested in La Jolla for being Black in La Jolla. As I said, that ended up in the USSC... and after much reforms and changes in Chiefs right now we have a civilian review board and a police chief that does not take that shit.

In my view EVERY city should have an effective Internal Affairs and Civil Review Commission. That reduces much of the crap. Does not fully get rid of it, because all departments have bad apples, but greatly reduces it.

So in general, the further EAST, or DEEP south you go (with some notable exceptions) the worst the problem of a blue mafia is.

[WillyT]

7. I Guess That Means We Have Blue Mafia Democrats...

to go along with our Blue Dog Democrats...

Wee...

:crazy:

[Xicano]

9. Yup..

Remember this one:

The Rampart Scandal. Corruption in the Community Resources Against Street Hoodlums (or CRASH) anti-gang unit of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) Rampart Division in the late 1990s. More than 70 police officers in the CRASH unit were implicated in misconduct, making it one of the most widespread cases of documented police misconduct in United States history. The convicted offenses include unprovoked shootings, unprovoked beatings, planting of evidence, framing of suspects, stealing and dealing narcotics, bank robbery, perjury, and covering up evidence of these activities.


The Rampart Scandal is notable in popular culture because at least three Rampart police were found to be on the payroll of hip-hop mogul Marion "Suge" Knight of Death Row Records, a convicted felon with known ties to the Bloods gang. Moreover, detective testimony and a wrongful death lawsuit filed on April 16, 2007, holds Rampart CRASH officers Nino Durden, Rafael Pérez, and David Mack responsible for the 1997 drive-by murder of platinum-selling hip hop recording artist Notorious B.I.G..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_Scandal

[seabeyond]

40. i was busy having babies. no, i didnt know about this. and we are

suppose to automatically give trust and respect

wow

i wonder if that had anything to do with the name of the movie, crash. good movie

[Kablooie]

54. I'm white but I care. This kind of lie just validates the issues that Black Americans point out.

And as long as they are validated, even occasionally, African Americans have a right to expose discrimination, no matter how trivial.

The only way it can be resolved is for White America to be aware of discriminations that are taking place and
much of it will go unnoticed unless it is highlighted by those that can see it clearly.

---

Just an opinion from a white guy.

[Mythsaje]

5. They really don't want to discuss it...

Rather bash and insult and obfuscate.

Reading between the lines made it clear that the cop was lying and the others were pretending he wasn't.

[seabeyond]

6. damn in your face clear. cowards. n/t

[tj2001]

8. I suspect the LE apologists on DU are not Democrats

Absolute and unthinking obedience to authority is not a Democratic value. It's not even an American value. Furthermore, coercion and intimidation are hallmarks of insecure cowards.

[Chulanowa]

16. Wish I could agree

But I tend to think of the Democratic party as a very big, deep lake. And every lake has a layer of rotten fish shit at the bottom.

[VMI Dem]

10. Rec.

[pleah]

11. K&R

[Hydra]

12. Trust the system, they say

They can trust. I question. They can silence my words, but not my suspicions.

[seabeyond]

14. cant silence my words either. people griping about gates arrogance. damn good thing gates so

arrogant and connected enough or this report would have gone thru without question. the attention brought witness out to say... no, didnt talk to him. totally showing a part of the report as bogus

[fire lake]

13. Are we 100% sure of this yet? I am trying to get the story to show up

and it's sooo slow. I take it that Crowley said the neighbor claimed two Black men and she was actually asked? Is it possible that he phoned in that version because she claimed they might have been Hispanic and he used 'Black' as a synonym for person of color?

[Hydra]

15. Officer also claims he spoke with the witness prior to going to entering Gates' residence

Ie: He was attempting to cover himself and his behavior. As pointed out, it only failed because they made such a stink. Should have accepted the title of "Stupid" rather than "Deliberate."

[seabeyond]

17. hould have accepted the title of "Stupid" rather than "Deliberate."

damn straight.

[fire lake]

19. You know, the way public servants are overly scrutinized these days...

I am not making excuses if Crowley deliberately effed with Gates, but I simply refuse to believe that a rogue, racist cop would stomach teaching racial profiling classes, as well as garner the total trust of Black superiors. Perhaps he is covering up for some minor glitch in procedure.

[seabeyond]

20. they are gods. all must bow. and gates didnt. racist? only when he doesnt get the

submissive behavior to his liking possibly. doubt if it matters who the person is.

[fire lake]

23. I have trouble maintaining hostility for cops, despite that mentality

you describe. I think that many must get into the profession because of some power need, but they are on the front lines, which are getting progressively crazy, and so I cannot just completely chuck them.

[seabeyond]

27. well, then. dont look for it to get any better, only worse. it will escalet, feed

feed until people actually have an interest in it.

it wont behoove the citizens, the community, but most it wont behoove the cops. they need our support and they are not going to get it this way

so your way hurts them, not helps them

at least i am as concerned about them, on the front line, as i am about the innocence that are being abused

i look for win win win all the way around

this way, maybe with acknowledging there is a problem solutions can be had and we can heal

or do it your way and let it continue to grow

[EFerrari]

45. This isn't about hostility for cops but a rejection of bad behavior.

And that would extend to the bad behavior of the Blue Wall when it protects offenders in their own ranks.

[kenfrequed]

112. Lines

I say chuck em.

Here are some lines I am tired of hearing:

"We are the most dangerous profession in the world"

"We are all that stand between you and the criminals"

"We deal with the worst people all the time"

"You can't understand the stress law enforcement has to endure"

"We are constantly under seige"

Etc etc...

This kind of BS would almost be tolerable if there wasn't so much damned abuse of power, corruption, violence, excessive force, racism, and other crap.

[freebrew]

154. Front lines?

If it weren't for the fact that they can't pull anyone over without 6 cars showing up, searching your car, breath test, random stops, and typically arrogant demeaning treatment from them, they would be more respected and much less threatened.
Most all of the above were unheard of when I was young. It took a 'Conservative appointed' supreme court to decide that the cops are not bound by the constitution. That if they think you may commit a crime they have reason to search and detain you.
This is very typical of the drunk driving laws. A law against behavior that may or may not result in some bad thing happening.
Note: I am NOT in favor of drunks driving, but that is totally different than the laws designed to prevent it.
Cops don't get respect because most don't deserve it.
And I know cops, locals are the worst. State cops in my state seem relatively professional.

[Renaissance Man]

24. Uh...

His "teaching racial profiling classes" is something that the Cambridge Police Department tried to use so that, hopefully, no one would ask for the 911 tape. I'm sure they never banked on the fact that the person who actually placed the 911 call would seek legal counsel so that her name wouldn't be dragged through the mud for profiling.

The tape is released, and what do you know... Crowley, the "racial profiling expert" actually rewrote history in his police report to try to cover his ass and his LIES were uncovered.

So, not only was he a dick in not leaving Prof. Gates' home after discovering that it had not been burglarized (and that Gates was the proper owner), he declined to provide his identification once requested, arrested Gates, LIED in the police report (at least three times) to attempt to cover his ass and had the entire Cambridge Police Department and Police Union act like major dicks demanding an apology from Pres. Obama.

[seabeyond]

86. really, you hit on it all. got it all in

amazed. there is so much

and the people still defend

[Hydra]

25. They're only "overly scrutinized" if you've never had a problem before

I've never had a problem with a cop, but I have with the courts. That gives me some perspective.

Crowley thought he was going to get away with this. In a way, he has. His side forced THE PRESIDENT to retract a statement that was true, correct and genuine...in favor a of a person who lied and abused his power.

You think we hold them up to too much daylight? If he doesn't want to defend people like Gates, as is his duty, then he shouldn't be a cop.

[seabeyond]

28. now obama can get up there and say " you lied, you dog, you lied", right? nt

[Hydra]

39. He could and he should

But I don't see it happening. This is the problem with his "can't we all get along?" strategy- it means he can't hold a moral line when it matters.

[seabeyond]

41. but it sure would feel good. i know i have calmed down.

every defender, every thread

he lied.

just saying it

[Common Sense Party]

128. Did he speak with the elderly neighbor?

Not the woman who phoned it in, but with the neighbor who first noticed the men on the porch. She didn't call, but it's likely she was still near the scene when the police arrived.

[quiller4]

21. She didn't mention race in the call and Crowley didn't speak to

her at the scene.

[LisaL]

52. Yes Crowley did speak to her at the scene.

“She didn’t speak to Sergeant Crowley at the scene except to say, ‘I’m the one who called,’ ” the lawyer, Wendy J. Murphy, said. “And he said, ‘Wait right there,’ and walked into the house. She never used the word black and never said the word ‘backpacks’ to anyone.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/us/28gates.html?_r=1&hp

So Murphy says Lucia didn't talk to Crowley but yet Crowley and Lucia had the conversation where Lucia informed Crowley she was the one who called. Pardon me, but that sure looks like she did talk to Crowley at the scene.

[seabeyond]

53. ya... wait right here. that was it. bit different from his report. he lied.

she even gave it to the dispatcher, could possibly be his home. cop went in knowing that.

he made up a story.

lied

[tblue37]

84. First of all, she was not a neighbor, but someone who worked nearby.

Secondly, she never spoke to Crowley at all, yet his report offers a detailed story about her calling out to him as she stood on the sidewalk with a cell phone in her hand. He even details how he turned to face her, with his back to the front door in order to talk to her. But none of that happened at all! It was a total fabrication.

She also never once said the word "black" or described the persons as being black. She said she couldn't tell the race, but when pressed by the dispatcher during the 911 call, she said one of them might have been Hispanic.

Crowley also said she was white, but she is an olive skinned Portuguese woman.

Also, no one uses "Black" instead of "Hispanic," not even as asubstitute for "person of color."

[Odin2005]

22. Authoritarians suck no matter what side of the aisle they are on.

Cop-Apologists, Chavez-istas, Anti-gun nuts, Nanny-Statists, Social Conservatives that like spying in people's bedrooms, they all suck.

[seabeyond]

29. you are so right on.... nt

[Odin2005]

31. Thanks! n/t

:hi:

[seabeyond]

32. i'm mad

lol lol

again

enough with it all.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

51. You're mistaking Chavistas from the right wing cartoon of them.

[Odin2005]

75. The right-wing corporatist authoritarians say the same thing about themselves.

They try to pass themselves off as "libertarians", preaching "Liberty! Freedom! Tyranny is Dead" while they are busy butchering the freedoms of everyone except the elite and calling it "real freedom. All Authoritarians, Left and Right, Populist and Elitist, claim to be defending Freedom when they are really destroying it.

[EFerrari]

89. That's very true. So, look at what they do, not what they say.

:)

[backscatter712]

26. A police officer? Lying?

[seabeyond]

30. nnnnaaaahhhh. wink. he lied. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

34. can't say i'm surprised-

but i am disapointed.

There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with questioning. I don't fault the police going to Gates' home. I fault Crowley for arresting Prof.Gates.

And even if he hadn't lied, I'd still fault him for that.

There was no need to have abuse his power like that.


:hi:

[seabeyond]

36. go to the door and verify. his job. then leave. but to knowingly lie and then sit on tv

with a smirk and say i didnt vote for him and buddies standing of for him saying shame on obama

geez

but what really bothers me reading that report, it is so clear crowley lead gates out of house with intent to arrest. so very clear. so clear i know every cop that read the report KNEW what crowley did. not ONE across the nation said, man.... crowley, you know you were going to arrest. lets at least be honest

instead

they backed crowley

[Bluerthanblue]

37. yeah... sadly the

blue wall seems to be pretty much like kryptonite.

It did bother me to see how many DU'ers took him at his word- but i tend to secretly hope for the best even when it is all but impossible.

I'm extra glad the Pres didn't change his opinion about the fact that the arrest was wrong.

I'd like to know who the "older woman" was- and if maybe she still plays into this whole thing in a significant way.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

38. that was the other part. the number of du'ers that insist we become docile for the police

not question, believe and automatically respect.

cant be done

[BlooInBloo]

44. I'm sure they're quick to bitch about Obama continuing bush's authoritarian ways though....

I wonder what the difference could possibly be?

[Bluerthanblue]

50. i'm old enough that one of the first

bumper stickers i had on my first car was

"Question Authority". (my very first one was Crumbs "Keep on Truckin".)

Unchecked/unchallenged authority is the recipe for disaster.

:hi:

peace

[seabeyond]

55. Unchecked/unchallenged authority is the recipe for disaster.

as we have been shown time and again. yet refuse to learn. especially last 8 yrs with bushco. you would have thought that would have been a lesson.

it is the weak and fearful that need a set of rules to guide them how to walk this journey. i believe.

after almost 5 decades i have faith and confidence in my own abilities. i dont need someone to tell me to do right

[EFerrari]

42. Calling us haters, emotional, irrational, unAmerican, anarchists,

ignorant, confused, knee jerkers.

What a great object lesson in taking your own advice. :)

[seabeyond]

47. lol, isnt that the truth. but do you hear.... do you hear the ... silence. nt

[EFerrari]

48. I bet there are a lot of people out there that feel pretty betrayed right now.

I would.

[seabeyond]

49. i think, they dont give a shit. trying to work an angle how to argue the "lie"

justify and go on to defend.

i think they knew before.

you started that thread last night. the obvious that the womans lawyer said she saw only back, could not determine race. and the defenders time and again ignored the obvious. one poster going to such an extent to make up a whole story about the lady watching and then later seeing race.

left her story open to then she would have seen the "burglars" belonged there, carried in luggage, drove away and ignored that.


they knew. but a lyin police is ok with them

just like a police breaking the law and arresting someone that doesnt deserve to be arrested

[Number23]

88. "i think, they dont give a shit."

That's all that needs to be said. Because the truth is really that cut and dry and really that simple.

i think, they dont give a shit.

Of course they don't. Why would they??

[seabeyond]

90. why? because it is the right thing

lol lol

forget all the other reason, but it is simply the right thing to do

it would behoove them and if they did care about a cop making it that much worse for the whole police force across the nation, it is in their best interest to care and maybe solve some of these problem so it isnt so very hard on the police force. feeding and growing the animosity.

[Echo In Light]

43. Rec

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. So you are certain that Crowley lied and not the witness?

[EFerrari]

58. He identifies the witness in his report as white. She is not white.

And she has no real stake in this.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. So it isn't possible that he spoke with a white woman he assumed was the 911 caller?

[EFerrari]

60. All kinds of things are possible and do happen.

But isn't that what the incident report is for, to lay them out clearly?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

61. I review emergency medical reports all the time. Mistakes are more common than people think..

[EFerrari]

80. I know that's right. So far, Sergeant Crowley says he didn't make any mistakes.

[LisaL]

62. Oh for crying out loud.

What race is this woman? Do tell.

[EFerrari]

70. That woman is brown like me, Lisa. She's of Portuguese extraction

and that makes her, GASP, Hispanic!

[LisaL]

71. As far as I know "hispanic" is not a race.

It's an ethnicity. And god forbid Crowley confused her for being white.

[EFerrari]

72. I hear there's going to be an opening at Cambridge for a sensitivity trainer.

You should apply immediately. :)

[LisaL]

74. "Hispanic" is not a race. It's an ethnicity.

I am not sure referring to the woman as white would be incorrect. And if Crowley looked at the woman and didn't figure out her origin/ethnicity, I fail to see that as some sort of hideous crime as some of you are trying to imply.

[seabeyond]

76. oh my fuckin god. you will argue everything. like my 14 yr old son. lordy

save us all.

i just had a flash of him all over this post.

you know, in your face the man lies and still there are people defending. what do you gain, defending someone who hurts all cops across the nation

[EFerrari]

79. She said she isn't white. How's that? Are you going to tell her she's wrong?

:)

[seabeyond]

81. i think. i think she just might argue and suggest.... were is the insult in that

like if labeled white and your not, sooooo

[LisaL]

83. No. But I don't think it's some sort of horrible thing for Crowley

to have assumed she was white.

[seabeyond]

85. you right. the horrible thing was he lied. n/t

[AngryAmish]

106. Someone who is Portuguese is not Hispanic

Otherwise Sotomayer would be the 2d hispanic justice

[seabeyond]

63. i do think crowley lied. yes. time will tell. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

64. I'll reserve judgement. I doubt time will tell though.

[seabeyond]

65. are you saying, you doubt anyone cares. that it will be ignored like so many lies we see of late

that nothing will be done?

god

our world has had enough of that. i hope, truly hope that is not the case. but then i am still hopin bush and cheney will have to experience the repercussion of their lies. you know people still say we cant "prove" they lied ergo they didnt. i cant stomach that

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

66. I think Crowley will give a different version of events.

Unless the other Officer was close by then what we currently have is a he said she said. Crowley and Gates will go to the WH. Come out with their arms around each other and all will be forgotten. That's just my opinion of what will likely happen, I would love to know what really happened.

[seabeyond]

67. i watch ko with lawrence. saw the notes. read the transcripts of 911 call

heard crowley talking on phone with no yelling.

you know, will do nothing but cement the feeling of frustration

thats too bad

[LisaL]

68. Why would Crowley be yelling?

[seabeyond]

69. crowley was talking on the phone, saying gates was resident of home but yelling,

continue to bring the back up... it was on the ko show.

[Raineyb]

77. I think Crowley should stop lying while he's behind.

Or leave the fiction to creative writing classes.

[seabeyond]

82. lie. one of them will have lied. i wont play cutsie with a play on lie

i am so damn tired of liars being coddled.

[marshall]

73. OJ redux--who'll be driving the white bronco this time?

Deja vu all over again, to quote a great man.

[TexasObserver]

87. Recommend

[seaglass]

91. Gates lied too. Do you see how it can be difficult to accept that either

is telling the gospel truth if they both lied?

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

94. how

do you keep your sense of humor.

[Karenina]

95. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I don't live there anymore.

[seabeyond]

93. ? he did. and where would that be. and was it on the stand or an official document? nt

[seaglass]

96. Yes, he said he didn't and couldn't yell and now there are two

non-police witnesses stating that he was yelling.

We are talking about what is truth here, does a lie only count if it's written or testified to on a witness stand?

[seabeyond]

97. i am not opposed to listening, thinking, interacting. i dont live life protecting an agenda

truth simply does not hurt me. i dont fight struggle wrestle with it.

i have heard about the witnesses, but i have not had any opportunity of hearing a first account from them. i would be interested in hearing from a witnesses mouth their perception of the event. the more we hear, the better understanding we would have

so

where would i go about getting htis info that you say is out there

and does a he say she say matter over a court document. yes. it does. when arguing that crowley did wrong, i did it absolutely and only from his perspective. did i think crowley was a 100% correct. no. but when telling our story we see it from our eyes. and crowley story had three places where it showed he didnt do his job, or he broke the law. i did this knowing that crowley was one sided. i did not call either a liar cause there is something in telling your story, from your eyes, and perspective adn experience

on the other hand, a document is created stating truth and all truth. stating you talked to a witness, and that the info is what witness said when you did not talk to that witness adn not what she said on the 911 tape is a flat out, purposeful, with intent lie.

yes

that is a difference

i am not here to be friends with either

i am not emotionally connect to either

i dont have an agenda to protect

so this isnt so hard for me

please show me these witnesses

[seaglass]

98. And I am not opposed to changing my mind when more information

becomes available.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/education/20143900/detail.html

Bill Carter, the man who snapped a photograph of Gates being led away in handcuffs, said police officers were calm and that Gates was "slightly out of control" and "agitated" when he was arrested.

"The officers around kind of calmed him down," Carter said. "I heard him yelling -- Mr. Gates yelling. I didn't hear anything that he was saying so I couldn't say that he was belligerent."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535044,00.html

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, without going into the content of what was said, which is, of course, part of the controversy, but in terms of the -- of whether the arrest itself might have been a disorderly, did she describe it to you that it was an out of control screaming at any point at all so that you might think, I might have made that arrest, or, I might not have made that arrest?

MURPHY: Well, I think what's fair to say is she does not believe the police acted inappropriately. Without describing the content of what she heard, there's only one person she heard screaming, and that was Professor Gates.

And Prof Gates:

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,1

TR: How did this escalate? What are the laws in Cambridge that govern this kind of interaction? Did you ever think you were in the wrong?

HLG: The police report says I was engaged in loud and tumultuous behavior. That’s a joke. Because I have a severe bronchial infection which I contracted in China and for which I was treated and have a doctor’s report from the Peninsula hotel in Beijing. So I couldn’t have yelled. I can’t yell even today, I’m not fully cured.

[seabeyond]

99. you took me to a site that wants to store stuff from my computer.

may be totally ok, i dont know. i dont know this shit. but didnt like it even a little bit. please dont do that to people

all of that is subjective. i talk firmly, clearly, and louder than normal and kids saying i am yelling. not... get over it. at the time of arrest, he was handcuffed and we are actually suggesting there is a wrong in the person being agitated.

the other witness, .... fox really didnt have any info, just enough to say, .... justified, but so little info

i dont know.

yelling, not? dont know

that is why i make the point on the he said she said perspective, subjective perception.... you cant say liar.

a huge difference from what happened with crowley and what he did on report. that, you can say..... lie

no


i cant call a man a liar with that information

[seaglass]

100. There's something wrong with your computer.

Clearly we are not going to agree about what does and does not constitute a lie, so I will leave it here.

[seabeyond]

103. something wrong with your computer..... you think? i am really computer illiterate

and know nothing about this stuff. will have hubby check it out. it shuts down on me too, jsut cause, no reason i see.

thanks

[seaglass]

104. The Root page tried to load a pop-up but that's very common,

did you get a warning from a pop-up blocker? Because that is not really that big of a deal and Prof. Gates launched The Root so I'm sure there wouldn't be anything nefarious there.

[seabeyond]

105. i just really dont know anything about anything and hurried out of it.

thanks.

cause it shuts down, hubby has to look at puter anyway. what he gets paid for all day. i guess that is why i have been allowed to, after a decade, still not know anything.

[marshall]

101. I thought the currently accepted term was "mis-spoke"

At least that's the term politicians use.

[seabeyond]

102. ya. i stopped doing it with bush. and raising kids. a lie is a lie and not gonna

cushion it and make it all soft and pretty

wink

[zonkers]

107. The only learning moment for these kinds of cops is sueing the fizuck out of them in court. I hope

Gates has that beer and does just that. Lawsuits wake people up. Funny. $$$

[seabeyond]

108. and i hate that idea. i really do. not saying you arent right. if more people took seriously

actually acknowledge the problems and then work at solving, maybe wouldnt have to resort to that. cause i really hate resorting to that. kinda like putting a band aide on an amputated arm. blood still shooting and and bleed to death.

the $$$ only makes people in for money and not cause and builds the resentments and thickens the wall of protection even more.

nah...

more i think about it, the more i see that isnt the answer

it is for people to friggin wake up

lol

[BlooInBloo]

109. (shrug) Without a cost being exacted for lying, lying will continue...

Money might be an imperfect way of exacting a cost, but it's the most straightforward one we have.

[seabeyond]

110. probably the only. i know this

my hubby always resorts to $ as the lesson. works in their family. i approach life differently. but clearly, so clearly after listening to crowley defenders, my way isnt going to happen, anytime soon anyway

[followthemoney]

111. Must be some of those Dumb Ass Democrats that voted for...

Reagan Bush and Li'l Bush.

[seabeyond]

114. we do have the authoritarian liberal. i think it is more character. need a set of rules to follow

in order to be comfortable living. some of us enjoy, take pride, are good at living/making decisions with confidence we can do as well and surely better than another telling us. some people dont feel that way. some think not only they, but especially everyone else has to be told, guided, directed how to walk life. cause god forbid a fuck up. the world at the end.

both parties have it.

personality

[asdjrocky]

113. You can always tell when a cop is telling a lie....

His lips are moving.

[seabeyond]

115. lol lol.... geez i am a sucker. a post like these my favorite

so i read your subject and brain already ticking off the things that show a cop lies, such as... not specific but general

then had a giggle at punch line. and so obvious, but surprising to me.

funny

[asdjrocky]

117. It's an old joke. Can't take credit for it at all.

Just shows ya how funny the truth can be.

[teachableseconds]

116. No, what I "demand" is that you not bend into a pretzel to look for insult

where none may exist. I wonder how many of us (who are not cops) would recount an incident and include info without remembering the sources. Everyone was so giddy that the caller didn't mention race, but they must have been rather crestfallen when the dispacher asked: "WHITE, BLACK, OR HISPANIC?" D'oh!

[seabeyond]

118. the other demand didn't work as this wont either cause both are full of shit. no pretzel

reality. well documented on du time and again last week. because someone speaks out and says, no. doesn't mean they are pretzel looking for insult. it means.... no. that simple

firstly

(a post of wrong)

a cop is a paid profession. how many people not doctors would know how to stitch up a wound. i dont have to. wasn't educated, trained and paid to do the job. cop is. it is his job to know where the info comes from

the reason people took not caller didn't mention race is cause crowley said she did. he lied. lied. get it. did not tell the truth. made up a story attributing it to a witness he was well aware he did not interview. so it was not that he made a mistake. no officer should be on the job if they cannot remember an hour later they did not even talk to the person. he lied.

race is a description. i am not bothered with that. so your duh is lame

[teachableseconds]

119. Why would Crowley "lie" when the 911 tapes would come out eventually?

I mean, come on now! As soon as he knew this guy was esteemed and pissed, to put that shite in a report intentionally would be nonsensical. And I suppose he volunteered to teach racial profiling because he is a racist? And his Black superior (who hired him) who backs him up is what...in cahoots with him because he's afraid of getting fired when he is Crowley's boss?

I am looking at this from a spiritual viewpoint and it seems like some people have a need to shape reality a certain way so it fits their conditioning. And if you see the world as hostile, the world will deliver. In spades.

[seabeyond]

120. i cant tell you the why of the man. how responsible would i be, telling you the why. the reality

is, he said the witness said. and the witness never said. the only thing the witness said is ... i am the one that made the call. and he said, wait here, i will be back with you.

i didnt create this. i am not responsible for this. why are you giving it to me. if it has shaken your world, a world where you trust the police then it is something that you are going to have to come to terms with

i dont see life in terms of good/bad. i dont need to set in judgment. we can see the reality of a situation without it being any of that, and if you truly understood spirituality, then you would understand.

reflect on your need to ignore what is being said to protect. why the need to protect. i dont have that need.

you want me to jump in this mans head and give you reasons. i do have a few guess. then you want to jump in my head and tell me who i am, well you are wrong.

the bottom line is , crowley lied. i dont say something like that casually. when talking about the "he said she said" of this mess, i wont get into who is right or wrong. but at this point, with this official document.... crowley lied.

because police are having ethical issues in no way puts my world as hostile. i know how to be in a peaceful, still environment. not a challenge for me.

[teachableseconds]

122. Funny, you talk about the need to protect. What about the need

to project?

I have met some very unhappy, hostile, and toxic people in my day. They always hear insults in others' words. Much of it can be traced to childhood, I suspect, but it's not an excuse. If you have been mistreated at some point, and it affects how you relate to others, you need to figure out some way to dissolve the anger and stop projecting your low self-esteem onto others. Sometimes it's a racial thing, sometimes a gender (women-hating men and vice versa), and sometimes an income thing.

[EFerrari]

124. Right. Maybe you should email Crowley and tell him his projections

are ruining his career and that he doesn't manipulate those of others well enough to compensate that way.

[seabeyond]

126. what is that post that poster is doing an analysis of my childhood, bah hahah.

i am confused.

[seabeyond]

125. lol wtf are you talking about. for real. you dont know me.

i was totally reasonable in that post to you. what am i protecting. do tell. tell me what i am protecting since you are telling me all of who i am clear back to my childhood. geeeez

[teachableseconds]

129. I was talking about Gates! Doesn't it make sense that Gates

could be angry about possible negative treatment in his childhood by Whites? Did you read his memoir "Colored People?" I did. His mother cleaned houses for Whites. He grew up in West Va. (still very, very White and most likely racist). He wrote an essay to get into Yale where he talked about 'whitey' being in charge of whether he was admitted or not.

He did end up marrying a White woman, but they are now divorced, since the memoir came out. He has since remarried yet it doesn't say to whom. Wonder why she wasn't there that night...

[seabeyond]

134. thank you for clarifying. i was very very confused.... sure, with what you are saying

he can be all that stuff. it can be cause he was tired. just cme back from china, tried to get in and had trouble with the door, airplanes and all that, high stress, thanks bush. real pain in the ass stuff. and then the door bell rings and there is a cop asking for id. as he sits in his own home. and on top of that, he is sick. hasn't been feeling well. trouble talking. and he is getting older, so double the tired more than us younger people. he is what 56? i am 47, wink.

since we are doing pretend, i can imagine he would immediately be short with them. i would be short with them. when i want control over situation, and i dont want to be doing what i am doing, i get short. not particularly nice. but then what the fuck, i dont have to be particularly nice. nor does gates. adn immediately

booooom

cop takes offense. well hey dude, why get pissy. i hear break in. i am you protector. all people immediately give me respect for no other reason but badge. and hey... you are being short with me

then he starts playing fuckin games. but his games, .... he has power of arrest. or taser. or even drawing a gun

so?

[teachableseconds]

139. Well, all I lknow is that I am gonna squirm when they have that brewski on Thursday!

Obama is gonna try to bring them together and Gates may still be pissed and Crowley is REALLY pissed, LOL...They are allowing cameras so break out the popcorn.

[seabeyond]

143. why is crowley really pissed. last i saw he had cops across nation stand up for him. or really

pissed

cause he got caught in his lie. :hi:

teasing

i am not gonna watch. you can come back and give me your take on it.

and welcome to du

[teachableseconds]

148. OOoooo...you got me there...back atcha!

:hi:

Thanks and I don't know if I can watch it. It seems like an uncomfortable thing because Gates and Crowley both have their egos and poor Obama's trying to play peacemaker! Hope they don't get drunk and start wrestling or something!

[seabeyond]

149. that is why i cant watch those things. n/t

[seabeyond]

127. today. this is your first day. very very first day, lol lol. hm. nt

[EFerrari]

123. Why would he know those tapes would come out?

And even if they did, that's not his piece of things.

Why would he not construct a report that backs his action up, that's what those reports do.

Why would he not take a job teaching a mandated class for a for extra dollars or as a cut out from street work?

Why would his superior not back him up? Isn't that what cops do?

You're seeing a pretzel where there is no snack food. And there is no illusion here. Gates was arrested for his "tone", in Crowley's words and he was hauled off to the police station where he got no medical care for his labored breathing until his friend shows up and insists on it. That's pretty fucking hostile and it has nothing to do with subjective "vision".

[Spazito]

140. ROFL!

Having read and responded to your posts on another thread to say you are looking at this from "a spiritual viewpoint" is beyond laughable!

In case you have forgotten, here is the link to that enlightening thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6169745

[EFerrari]

144. What it is with this rash of low count posters defending Crowley?

Is this like when people registered here to tar Chavez before the referendum in 2007? Or, like that wave of "Hondurans" we got just after the coup? I know DU gets new members all the time but, these little waves of people who all support one side of these flaps are :crazy:

[Spazito]

146. In reading the posts from those low count poster who are 'defending' Crowley...

I am seeing it is less the 'defense' of Crowley that is driving them, it is the opportunity to attack Dr. Gates, a man of color, who dared to stand up for his rights, the 'uppity' 'tone' of Dr. Gates is what has enraged them and the incident and Sgt. Crowley are merely the vehicle they use to try and cover themselves, imo.

[seabeyond]

150. you may be right.

get a lot of "what about gates behavior" and to me that is totally irrelevant, insignificant, has nothing to do with anything. we know gates wasn't a threat, ergo, no arrest warranted

i mean, find the level of just how agitated was gates. agitated. and warranted

[Spazito]

153. I call it the "yeahbut" red herring...

'yeah, but he did this...', 'yeah, but she didn't do that...'.

My kids learned at an early age that crap won't work, lol.

[seabeyond]

156. My kids learned at an early age that crap won't work, lol.

damn straight.

[EFerrari]

162. Yeah, some of them just use this as a vehicle. Some of them are cops. n/t

[Spazito]

166. A few maybe but most are the 'wannabes', probably' washed out'...

if they ever even tried to join the force. Not unlike the armchair warriors we often see come and quickly 'go' having been served with a granite pizza.

[EFerrari]

170. You're probably right. n/t

[EFerrari]

121. Not really. That's what dispatchers do. They're trying to get visual markers.

[bridgit]

180. That's not absolute if you know how often 911 is used falsely to dump or drop a dime...

on people with user problems or chips on their shoulders other people don't care for ala Ashley Todd/Twana Brawley, "Three black guys with a chain ran that way!!" "Some white guys did all this stuff to me!!" If it were up to dispatchers we could let them go ahead and solve the case and mete out justice yet that's just not the way it works. They aren't looking so much for 'visual makers' read here "three black guys a chain ran that way" as they are situational: what's the scene *where's* the scene is anyone injured the prepositioning of safety concerns i.e. remain where you are don't take no wooden nickles, etc

[bridgit]

179. There's a simple Mgt & team building tool called: Midnight Murder...

a parlor game - that is administered to a group of prospects in-session after which their recollections are sought regarding the scene they've just been given; in fairly short order, many realize where they are able; that in spite of what they thought they heard or seen they aren't able to recall to a useful extent the key parts that bring objectivity into the scene and no...Snopes may not be the end-all when a consult with The Amazing Randi will suffice.

That's right round when the subjective prejudices and bigotries of prospective folk (that actually believe they are void of them) are themselves observed and logged as per ways in which they may effect the decision making process. Here's hoping such folks take full advantage of learning their contributions in-session, in context

[hfojvt]

130. How did he lie? I may have missed that.

I am not sure anybody said anything about 'not questioning'. More about not putting the conclusion before the facts.

[EFerrari]

132. His police report says the witness told him the bit about two black men

with backpacks. She says she didn't say two black suspects to anyone. Not to the dispatcher, not to him, not to any other officer. In fact, she didn't retell her report to him at the scene at all. He made it up.

[hfojvt]

133. Are you sure about the last part?

Many people came into this story pre-judging the cop as a liar. I suppose that is a good bet since all people are liars, but almost nobody lies all the time. Especially not in writing, and if there are serious consequences for lying.

Crowley has been contradicted by Whalen. Okay, first, we don't know that Whalen is telling the truth, or if something else is going on. For example, Crowley may have talked to somebody else that he assumed to be Whalen when he wrote his report. A person can get something wrong on a report and still not be a liar. Has this all been determined yet?

However, those who assumed him to be a liar are gonna be quick to say 'aha, I was right' before they have all the facts.

[EFerrari]

135. Yes, he writes up that he spoke to Whalen and identifies her by name EDIT

and race and he gets the race wrong.

Do you believe someone else went up to Crowley and identified herself as Whalen?

He fabricated the conversation.

Here's a post that lays it out clearly:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6169745&mesg_id=6171537

[hfojvt]

141. no he wrote

"I spoke to a woman, later identified as Whalen" The woman he spoke to never identified herself.

What is not obvious to me, is why he would fabricate this conversation. What is the point? He already has a purported burglarly from dispatch. Does he need to talk personally to the caller before he investigates? That does not make sense to me. I don't know procedure, but first, why would this caller hang around? Second, why would the police waste time talking to the caller?

I don't expect anybody to lie unless they have a reason to lie and I don't see a reason here. But let me go read that link.

[EFerrari]

142. They usually ask witnesses to meet the responding officer at the scene. n/t

[seabeyond]

145. you know what i reall really think

and put aside all the pissy i am with the police.

i think he said, get back to you. didnt figure arrest. went into situation and arrested guy. never got back to her. here he is doing up the paper work and says, oh fuck... not a biggy and typed out two blacks with backpacks without much thinking it through

[hfojvt]

152. I have said this before, but we seem to have worldviews colliding here

I am of the perhaps naive belief that most people are decent, and also that most people are imperfect, that means both Gates and Crowley. In stressful situations or conflicts often neither person is at their best.

In the other, more cynical worldview, there are lots of bad guys, especially among the police force, but often on DU too where 'cop-defenders' are bad guys too, and some 'trolls' have over 20,000 posts.

The story you tell there does not sound implausible, but it does not make the cop into a bad guy either, nor mean that there isn't some truth in the rest of the report.

[seabeyond]

157. i will take it further

the whole good/bad thing doesn't work for me. not how i see people. nothing is all that they are. i have yet to meet a bad or good person. just stuff. anyone can justify, validate, rationalize any behavior.

BUT

that doesn't mean we can't be honest either. i think the lying to self, is the most damaging.

this man did four things now that should have earned him discipline at the very least. but instead of owning them, he lied and denied and further had his fellow officer side with them in nontruths. that just isn't ok with me. i dont honor lies. truth isn't hurtful and painful to me. i refuse to live in this manner, why?

cause things escalate, feed, grow, fester. i would much rather deal with a little tumor than cancer thru out body cause i pretended it wasn't there

and this is what the cops are doing to themselves

what would have happened if crowley truly had been a man and after calming down said you know, i had missteps

but he refused

that is why we are here

we create what we live with the choices that we make. this is what crowley has created for himself. and the nationwide distrust of cops is what they are making causing lack of support from totally law abiding citizens like myself.

not gonna hurt me. but it hurts them. adn they are such dumbshits, they dont get it.... ok, that was in tease

now

[EFerrari]

158. What you are calling a cynical worldview is what other people would call

history.

[seabeyond]

161. history. factual. documented. reality. present. and appears future too if we

dont do something about it.

[hfojvt]

167. One thing about history

is that it's in the past. What I see in the present is people trying to perpetuate this history and being paranoid about racists and bad guys who may not actually exist.

[EFerrari]

169. Paranoid about racists? Have you heard about Obama's birth certificate?

[hfojvt]

174. that's racism too?

I thought it was more like paranoid conspiracy theory, much like Clinton's drug murders. Would that have been racism if Clinton was black? Did you hear he killed Vince Foster and Ron Brown? Certainly nobody would create such smears against a white President. You actually found a perfect example of falsely attributing something to racism. I am quite sure that some, or even many, of the birthers are racists, but I don't think their primary motivation is racism any more than it was for the Clinton Derangement Syndromers, the Swift Boat Liars, or the War on Gore veterans. It doesn't look like racism to me if the same thing happens to white guys.

[EFerrari]

175. Yes, that's racism, too. Maybe you haven't heard -- There's a "Kenyan citizen"

in the White House. :crazy:

[hfojvt]

176. isn't that where his dad is from?

Should they call him a German citizen to be non-racist? Seriously, this in incomprehensible to me. Is it automatically racism whenever a black person is involved? Am I a racist if I think Jimi Hendrix sucked? Why can't I just be an idiot? Just because Jimi is black? I am just an idiot if I think Led Zeppelin sucks, but ooh, have a negative opinion of a black guy and you are not just wrong. You are wrong AND a racist.

These people are wrong. They are borderline crazy (although actually I exchanged emails with old friends of my parents and she brought up the birther complaint and we went back and forth a little about it. Is it fair for me to call her borderline crazy? How would she feel about my LIHOP?) amd they are probably racists too - some of them, but their belief in a crazy conspiracy is not, as far as I can tell, evidence of their racism.

[EFerrari]

177. It's patently racist code of the same sort Palin used at her klan rallies --

"Obama is not like us" -- which generated cheers and death threats and mock lynchings from her crazy racist base. Racism is one of the lynch pins of the modern Republican Party.

[seabeyond]

138. actually i am taking subtitle back. was snarky. you asked ? and ? are good.

here is a link to a story. a whalen hired an attorney to put out story. the attorney was her spokeswoman


http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/index.html

[hfojvt]

147. I have read that story

but several things are not clear to me. Or at least several possibilities exist.

First, why would Crowley lie?
Second, if he was not lying, was there another woman at the scene.
Third, as has been explained, most people do not remember details correctly. Thus if Crowley gets told 'two men went inside that house" and later finds a black man in the house, then it stands to reason that said black man is one of the people and when re-telling the story he inserts that fact into it, even though it was not what the woman said. Failing to be totally accurate in a report is not the same thing as giving a completely inaccurate report.

Fourth, when you have two people

Person A: X happened
Person B: X did not happened

You cannot immediately say that either one of them is wrong, or a liar. That is, one of them is, but you do not yet know which one, but either one could be remembering something wrong, rather than lying. We had an incident at work where I was a third party, and I had to write up an account. When asked about the other people's accounts I had to say sometimes 'I don't remember that'. and I ammittedly got some details wrong. I said one person threw a piece of paper at another when it was his latex gloves that he threw. But the essence of what I said was true - he threw something, and it was something lightweight. Plus I left out some details which may or may not be considered significant.

[seabeyond]

151. her lawyer said, whalon said, i made the call. crowley said wait here, be back

report said..... a whole lot of stuff that was never talked about

that is a lie

he has her name, whalon. standing on sidewalk. just like approach

look

you want to find an out for crowley, do it.

he lied

[hfojvt]

155. then did you lie too because that is not in the article you linked

"her lawyer said, whalon said, i made the call. crowley said wait here, be back"

This is from the link above

"Attorney Wendy Murphy, who represents Whalen, also categorically rejected part of the police report that said Whalen talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/index.html

That's different from what you wrote. If there is no possible out for Crowley then there is no possible out for you, is there?

The important part of the report is the rest of it. How much is true about what Gates said.

If your account is correct, I still think his report is mostly true on that point. 1) that he spoke with her, and 2) that he included a slightly inaccurate (probably second hand) report of what Whalen said.

Other than being able to smear him as a total liar, how significant is it that he inserted her statement into the story. It may turn out to be fairly significant.

[seabeyond]

159. firstly, you just simply are refusing to get the difference.... he is a trained paid professional

and i am not

secondly

i gave you the most i could favoring crowley to be as fair to him as i can. the attorney saying she did not talk to crowley i think is saying she did not give a statement. i read last night that he approached, she said i am the one that called, and he said, wait here i will be back

so i thought that it only fair to give you the most fairsided knowledge i had for crowley

i am that good

[hfojvt]

165. there are differences and there are similarities

Some of it though is this whole 'the cop is a liar' meme is blowing things up. Suppose my report of my workplace incident was put online and people were taking sides (after all one worker was white and the other one was black, since I am white I probably lied about what the black guy said because I am a racist). Then you could take the part of the report where I was wrong. I said he threw a piece of paper and both others said it was latex gloves. "Ho ho." My detractors would cry. We have captured the racist heffalump in our cunning trap. He has lied. Therefore everything he said is a lie and he's really a racist dillweed.

That's a slippery slope I don't wanna slide down, and my point is that you can nitpick at any inaccuracies and that does not really help you get closer to the truth although people are using it to set their caricatures in concrete.

[seabeyond]

172. no. when initially talking about htis i used only crowleys words. didnt even consider gates

statement. again to be as fair on the cop side as i could get. was i pretty sure his statement wasnt 100% accurate, absolutely. as you said when he said she said you can figure it is somewhere in the middle. but i didnt even consider gate. and still there were three things in crowleys statement that let me know he didnt do duty as cop and one he flat out broke law. and he is by far not the first cop to not give badge and number. seems to be the trend with cops. like they lose power in doing.

so, i was fair to crowley only using his words and not using the word liar in either case

this is a circumstance of lying. flat out, in your face, lying. and i refuse to soften it, make it nicer than what it is, downplay what he did

he lied.

not nikpicking. but a flat out lie

[EFerrari]

160. Except it's not a smear if it's true. He did not take her report at the scene.

He lied and more, he codified that lie into his incident report.

[hfojvt]

168. it is a smear in the same way that if you took the one inaccuracy in my report

and painted me as a TOTAL liar. If you find one thing that is wrong, does not prove that everything is wrong or that what everything Gates has done is right. It's not all or nothing.

[EFerrari]

171. I agree with you about not exaggerating one thing into a character assasination.

But this one lie is just one among a number of details that do add up to bad faith.

Whatever. Gates is on vacation; Crowley is likely still dealing with the fallout.

[seabeyond]

173. there is a difference from perspective, telling story, mistake or error and flat out

knowingly, with purpose, .... lie.

when you see the person capable of blatantly lie, then all he says is subject to not be believed.

it is different

[seabeyond]

136. he quoted witness as saying..... and witness didnt say. n/t

[Gman2]

131. Had an almost identical rogue cop action. I wish I could see my report.

[hfojvt]

137. this has made me wonder what various reports have said

for incidences I have been involved in, but I bet it would not be helpful. The cop who got in my face about weapons after a seatbelt stop would probably not explain why he did that in his report. He's certainly not gonna write "the guy had long hair and looked like a thug so I went fishing to see if he was breaking any other laws". Or that "He was fumbling around in his car and I got nervous."

[bemildred]

163. He's not a rogue cop, he's a perfectly ordinary cop, that's the problem.

If he was a rogue cop nobody would make that much of it.

[seabeyond]

164. i think so too. that is what people arent seeing. and that is why people

who think so see such a huge problem.

[Gman2]

178. The minute a cop says they are comin in without a warrant, they are rogue.