Do you deserve to die?

[autorank]

The Forgotten Question in the Health Care Debate
Tuesday, 28 July 2009, 1:09 pm
Opinion: Michael Collins

Do you deserve to die?
Do your friends and family?

Rationed care.

Scenario 1: You've just been diagnosed with a cancer of the lymphatic system. You're told that it requires a procedure within the next two weeks. Unfortunately, you were laid off from your corporate job 11 months, 30 days ago. You are on your last day of COBRA. Your company retirement and savings are all gone. You can't afford the $1,200 a month premium needed to continue your coverage. Without the operation, you will die. Do you deserve to die?

Scenario 2: Your spouse has a long history of illness. Then you discover she has a virulent infection that, if untreated, threatens to disable her to the point where she's immobile and requires 'round the clock medical care. You work for yourself. While you have catastrophic health insurance, it doesn't cover the needed treatment nor does it provide for nursing care. Does your wife deserve to experience this untreated sickness and suffering until her premature death?

Do you or your family members deserve to die simply because the rulers of this country can't get their act together to provide universal health care? Snip

Who among the advocates of rationing are without health insurance?

Who among them are unable to afford or obtain their own critical care or the same for their loved ones?

Who among them will step forward and tell those denied medical care:

"You deserve to die."

More: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0907/S00312.htm

[ihavenobias]

1. You shared a great perspective with the different numbers.

K & R

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. thanks

[autorank]

5. All things considered, I'd prefer to see you live & live well. You're welcome. n/t

[Hydra]

3. Funny how we have to save the rich

But when it's us, well it's just too bad...

[autorank]

4. Brother can you spare a trillion?

[valerief]

6. Bingo! nt

[Hydra]

7. +1000!

*big grin*

You made me smile, though as Ellen Ripley put it:

"I'm finding a lot of things funny lately. But I don't think they are."

[autorank]

9. :)

And another

[Mythsaje]

22. OOO!

Now THAT I like.

It begs to be stolen.

Begs, I tell you.

So simple. So true.

[autorank]

24. Enjoy

It's an old anarchist slogan. It's around, unattributed.

It's ours, it belongs to the world. Public domain!

And it is the pure, unvarnished truth.

The media is sitting on the "class war" canard, I suspect, because they're afraid they'll give us some ideas.

A little late for containment, I'd say :evilgrin:

[Mythsaje]

29. I've done a few on the class war... but that line is priceless.

I wish I'd invented it... But I daresay I've written a few pithy phrases on the subject. Just not quite as... concise.

[maryf]

40. sorry wrong place but link left!!

http://www.healthcare-now.org

[readmoreoften]

8. +1!!!!

Brilliant

[althecat]

10. +2!!!!

:bounce:

Brilliant indeed.

[kenny blankenship]

19. They don't even ask. They just demand it from us.

They don't answer questions about how they use bail out money, and so far they haven't had to answer any questions about their long-running systemic fraud that led us to this point.

There is no accountability for war crimes, no accountability for torture, no accountability for warrantless domestic spying, no accountability for multi-trillion dollar ponzi frauds... This society is bankrupt in every fucking way.

[Hannah Bell]

11. k&R.

the same question could be asked in other situations, too.

job losses.
the war(s).

[autorank]

13. You are right

Why fight wars to "save us" when we lose our jobs as a result? Same argument. We have absolutely no business
in any wars unless there is a direct, real, no b.s. threat to the USA and we're responding. So we get these fictions -
we simply can't afford them, on multiple levels, but particularly on a 'dollar' level. The 'we can't afford it' line
is just another diversion to stop social justice. It's as though the elite simply can't stand the thought of
eliminating suffering; in the suffering of others, they find their meaning. What else are we to conclude?

Thank you for all of your great posts.

[AuntPatsy]

12. K & R nothing more to add...

[Naturyl]

14. Yep, I definitely do, but thanks to that commie LBJ, I have Medicaid.

However, others in my family are uninsured. Thank goodness we still have some common sense in this country and we can still let nature take its course for the 50 million uninsured. To put it in the words of another DUer who was addressing smokers earlier today, "it's called thinning the herd." Social Darwinism is as American as apple pie. Ability to pay is equal to fitness to live. Let the weak die off and improve the gene pool for all the rest.

:sarcasm:

[autorank]

55. Yep

If there were no concept like Social Darwinism, they'd be in trouble because the policies of the government are
often designed to serve what is clearly a "culture of death." In that sense, I guess we're both "pro life" in the
real sense of the term - you know, the living, the people walking around, with goals and aspirations. But if they
can't negotiate the health care system or get enough money, if they're not willing to go bankrupt, then, hey, that's
life, or death.:sarcasm:

[Fla_Democrat]

15. Depends on who you ask

but I'm sure you can find someone (many someones) who would think I do. :evilgrin:

[truedelphi]

53. Move over. I am in that boat with you. n/t

[autorank]

57. Would you stop it!

Joy is also in short supply.

Can you believe this "Gang of 6" or whatever they call them. Actually "gang" is the right term - they're mugging
the citizens, and not the least bit ashamed.

:hi:

[truedelphi]

75. Hi there. I had a bad dream that I was Orly Taitz and

My eye make up was running all over everything. So they refused to let me over to their white and beautiful beachs in Hawaii while reserching everything. It was very unpelasant being her! Imean, where would my close relationships with people be if everyone of them had to produce a birth certificate!


Then I woke up and found out that Universal Single Payer never had a chance.

but this bit of wisdom (or satire) cheered me up

http://tinyurl.com/m33wst

I like how it starts out - "So why stop at forcing us to buy defective health insurance from the usual insurance "providers." Why not insist we have a Ford Pinto in every garage?"

[autorank]

56. Well, I don't know you but...

stick around, irony and dark humor are in short supply;)

[puebloknot]

16. Unbidden, that photo brings up the image of a cross ...

... and all the hypocrisy that permeates our "Christian" governmental structures.

The utter hypocrisy, and the insanity that infect the effort to offer what most other modern nations offer to their citizens -- from practical, if not humanitarian motives -- is beyond the pale. A reduction in the military budget could fund health care. Kucinich and some others point out that just taking the inefficiency and waste out of the current system could fund a single payer plan.

We already have rationing -- by the insurance companies. I got my "socialized medicine" (actually, I guess it was) in a quonset hut as an army brat. The Hippocratic oath has gone the way of the Constitutuion and the Bill of Rights -- and doctors and nurses are not the prime cause of our broken system. There is greed in the medical community, to be sure, but leaving our fate to insurance companies is not going to right that wrong. Au contraire, it will continue the abuse.

We need a "Yes man" on every corner, near every congressional office, near the capital building of every state, tricking the bastards into admitting the truth. (Have you seen that movie?)

Thanks for posting this. It's very important.

[autorank]

59. Well said, so clear

"the insanity that infect(s) the effort to offer what most other modern nations offer to their citizens"

This reminds me of the toxic notion of "American exceptionalism" - ya know, we're so special we get to invade
at will. We're the "last best hope for manking" - yeah, if 'man" wants to play Russian Roulette with his life
and that of his family.

This country is a great one, not because of the leader or our power, but because the people will make the right
decision again and again, when presented with the facts. When we had a semi free media, semi independent, we got
the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, even the EPA under Nixon for goodness sakes. But now, the polution
os so thinck and the corruption so pervasive, my modest notion isn't even on the table unless it's someone who
never gets covered like Kucinich.

After failing on mortgate relief, the Durbin bill, and forgetting that the credit card bill of rights needed a
cap on interest rates, a failure on health care may be the tipping point that lets the "rulers," those bipartisan
buddies, feel the wrath of the people.

What's the movie - sounds excellent.

:hi:

[diva77]

62. home page for "The Yes Men Fix the World" here

http://www.theyesmenfixtheworld.com./index.htm

to be released in Oct. I believe

[puebloknot]

65. The movie is "Yes Men." On cable here last night.

It's about two guys who go into various conventions with regard to rebuilding New Orleans, alternative fuel resources, etc., and pretend to be keynote speakers from the likes of Enron, Dow, and others. They call and say a bigshot will be speaking, but when the convention *convenes*, the big shot is sick so these guys are pinch-hitting. And then we see the television reportage of how X convention was hoaxed.

It's hilarious, and it makes a lot of good points about the absurdity of our current situation.

Watch it!

[leftstreet]

17. K&R

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. I really do. Otherwise, why would I?

[rumpel]

20. k&r

:hi:

[flvegan]

21. I voted for Kucinich for a number of reasons.

This is one of them.

[autorank]

23. He's one of the few intellectually honest, compasionate

members of Congress who cares about the people and the nation on a consistent basis.

He still has work to do and he'll be able to do it, I'm sure.

[Selatius]

25. But the political dialogue in this country is reduced to calling Kucinich the "Keebler Elf."

They attack everything about him and ridicule him. Hell, I've seen some despicable DUers here in the past call him names or say he's "batshit crazy" because he saw UFOs. It totally overshadows his policy positions, and then they use "socialist" in a pejorative sense to attempt to show his views are not of the working class and thus are not beneficial to most working class Americans.

[Naturyl]

27. He's known as the "Evil Elf" in Repuke-land.

Here in the "left-leaning" community, he's simply dismissed as "not electorally viable" and what not.

If everyone who supports Kucinich but lists reasons why he could "never win" would just vote for him, he'd go a long way.

[Vidar]

26. K&R

[Seldona]

28. K&R

It is the great equalizer. It really pisses me off republicans, and some Democrats, treat health care as a commodity. Everyone will need it at some point. We all get sick. We will all die.

[formercia]

30. Feedstock for the Medical-Industrial complex

Preventative care isn't profitable enough.

[autorank]

60. We're headed down the shute for the inevitible

Earlier than necessary and without much respect.

Which one of these Senators is without health care?

Which one of them worries about family membeers denied care?

Let them step forward and say it's OK to see a loved one die because "we don't have enough dollars."

[formercia]

76. They live in a different dimension.

and they feel immune from what ails us.

[Hubert Flottz]

31. Today,

Jesus would probably turn all those people he once healed away,(might even dropkick some)if they didn't have their Blue Cross...card.

The republicans are politicizing some of us to death, as I type. Congressional Repub's "Family Values" do not, nor have they ever, extended beyond their own families. The CONservative "compassion" is underwhelming. Greed dominates their every thought and action, as usual.

[Stinky The Clown]

32. Kicketty Kick and Rekkedy Rek

*No one* deserves to die.

We all will, but it ought to be for reasons other than written words (or lack thereof) published by the government.

[autorank]

61. "reasons other than written words .... by the government.?

They can't find their ass with both hands on issues that help, but when it comes to screwing us, they're like
ninja assassins - efficient and cold blooded.

Great thread on this subject by your earlier. Thanks!

[LeftishBrit]

33. k&r

The right-libertarians and privatization fanatics who deny people necessary health care have caused the deaths of far more people than any terrorist group has.

[DemReadingDU]

34. very important

because as more and more people lose jobs, many more will lose healthcare, and die too soon

:(

[autorank]

64. And it's all unnecessary.

"We don't have enough dollars?" No, we don't have rulers with the will, inclindation, and intelligence to solve this
problem, one that every other idustrialized nation and others as well have solved.

Good seeing you!

[John Q. Citizen]

35. the rulers of this country depend on premature deaths to peddle private insurance to everyone else.

Private insurance companies are continuing criminal enterprises who bribe our law makers so they might better pick our pockets and control out fates.

Like the cocaine/heroin/meth cartels, the slave holders, the tobacco giants, the asbestos mine owners, these criminals derive great wealth from the suffering and death of others.

Obama wants to let people "choose" to profit ongoing criminal enterprise if they want.

I say ENOUGH!

[wolfgangmo]

36. I read this somewhere ...

... that if every person in America simple made a target of a local person that they knew were exploiting someone else and stood up to them publically that things would improve overnight.

The key here is to give the bastards and their minions no where to hide and no rest. Harass them at home, harass them at work, report them to the authorities for everything wrong they do, go to their church and talk about what they are doing and why it is wrong, etc. If everyone everywhere just kept up the pressure then maybe they would behave better, or at least not be able to get away from it as much. Imagine if there were citizen spies reporting their every move in their life.

Of course the article went on to suggest that for some unrepentant miscreants that more drastic and permanent measures would be needed. I am not advocating this.

[autorank]

43. The Gang of Six: "great wealth from the suffering and death of others." - preach brother

This is the case when you think through this issue. Of course, John Q Citizen knows this and says it clearly.

ENOUGH is right. Enough of their bull shit stories about "oh we don't have the money." We've got it, it's all in the banks. Get it back. Shut the criminal enterprises down that received the money in an illegal fashion. It's our money and credit based on the good faith of the US - as in us!

ENOUGH of the stupid stories about these small State senators with Baucus. They have people in those states who want and need health care. They're as caring as people elsewhere. But it's the myth of stupid people who want to die that allows these senators to deliver the death blow. And the media plays right along.

Let's have some leadership, some action. The push back if this fails will be monumental. It's an existential thing, Congress wouldn't understand. Well, they'll get the message real soon if they screw this up.

Incredibly well said John Q.

[tomreedtoon]

37. "We ALL deserve to die...

"...Tell you why, Mrs. Lovett, tell you why...
for the lives of the wicked should be made brief,
for the rest of us, death will be a relief,
we ALL deserve to die!"

---Sweeney Todd

Footnote: I know that "the rest of us" are expected to die, and the Republicans are intent on doing that. But I just want to make sure "the wicked" also get it.

[maryf]

38. K&R; health care death clock...

http://hc-dw.org/

25 deaths so far today...

[DemReadingDU]

69. good website, thanks. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

39. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, autorank.:thumbsup:

[autorank]

42. Hey Joe

Max Baucus should be on a wanted poster, along with those other passive aggressive advocates for mass suffering and
worse. Time for the bull shit to end. The "Gang of 6" and those who allow that to exist don't realize that they're
playing with fire. There will be a huge payback for failure on this. Where's the leadership?

[Uncle Joe]

44. I totally agree on all counts, autorank.

I can't imagine how they can justify preserving a dysfunctional and immoral industry; having nothing to do with health care, that only exists to take precious dollars via bonus and profit directly away from actual health care, what are they Ferengi?

The Baby Boomers are approaching the times of their lives, when health care becomes preeminent and for profit "health" insurance has been failing miserably while simultaneously undermining the actual industry of health care. I believe a perfect storm is approaching that will drown anyone standing in the way of government sponsored universal single payer health coverage.

I believe we have reached the times were dog eat dog capitalism; on several fronts is posing a financial/security threat against our democratic republic, society at large and the human race.

"Where's the leadership?" is and will be the growing question of the 21st Century.

[maryf]

41. Health Care Rally July 30th DC

http://www.healthcare-now.org if you live in NYS (or nearby) there is still room on the buses, info at link!

[Mithreal]

45. Heaven will make it all better. nt

[msedano]

46. who deserves to be re-elected?

there lies one answer to the obstructionist "me first, me only, me and mine" types like adam schiff, the best friend in congress bush-cheney ever had and my congressional reprehensible.

being as how "blue dog" insults both the color spectrum and dogs, that cabal needs a new handle, too bad "shit" is already taken.

recommended.

[fascisthunter]

47. the very people who never have to worry about being covered

are the very people making the decisions. Here's a great example of selfishness, greed and inhumanity.

[emald]

48. everyday people die because of our "system"

everyday. Our "congress" is prolonging and aggravating an already dire situation. This is not government of the people, or for the people, or by the people. Time has come for a social earthquake. I'd give my all, my life included, if my children did not have to face this fraud that we call a health care system. What an ugly, mean, little country we have allowed ours to become. All for profit.
Greed is king in the United States. People will continue to die for no other reason than the profit margin needs to be a little higher. All we need to do is look at the freaks in the halls of leadership to see that. Liars. cheats. perverts. These are our cream of the crop.
Revolution is needed.

[pleah]

49. K&R

[baldguy]

50. The state has no business killing it's own citizens.

Either through direct action, or indirect inaction.

[KT2000]

51. This is KATRINA

all over again.
I have said this before and will keep saying it - During Katrina we could see the faces of those suffering and it is the shame of this country.
The only difference with lack of access to healthcare is that we do not see the faces of those suffering. Hell - the doctors don't even see their faces.
This is murder and neglect by design.

[truedelphi]

54. Hell - the doctors don't even

see their faces. (Great comment, BTW.)

Sometimes the doctor does, if the face is on a body strong enough to wait six weeks.

[proReality]

52. K&R n/t

[diva77]

58. very powerful statement with juxtaposition of photo

as usual, you cut to the chase, auto!

congress has blood on its hands the way this thing is going so far

[autorank]

68. My favorite diva!

They are a mess, that Congress. Here's The Gang of Six:



They may be old, but the pack a big punch - and 3% of the population is represented. That's democracy in action!

:hi:

[Me.]

63. You Can Blame Rahm For This

Just as M. Waters said, he recruited blue dogs when he was in Congress and told them they could vote however they wanted. I specifically remember him doing it in Ill. and Fla. In Ill. he knocked a popular progressive out of the way and backed Duckworth, had to spend over 2 mil and she still lost. In Fla. he recruited a repuke and pushed a progressive out of the way again. The repuke later said he didn't owe anything to the dems. As maxine said, his chickens are coming home to roost. Sadly, the rotten eggs they're laying are being thrown at us.

[autorank]

77. I like dogs, dogs are friends of mine, and "Blue Dogs" are that in name only;)

[Daylight]

66. Your trading one form of rationing for another.

Now, in certain circumstances, you will die if you don't have the cash or credit to pay for your medical expenses. Thus rationed based on your ability to pay.

With Universal healthcare, like Canada has for instance, you still die based on other criteria. Maybe your to old and they want to ration the care to someone younger. Too many people waiting in line for the care you need and you die before it's your turn in line. New experimental treatments won't become available to cure you because Rich people weren't around to feed the research via their own medical care.

Changing your scenario 1: You've just been diagnosed with a cancer of the lymphatic system. You're told that it requires a procedure within the next two weeks. Unfortunately, the procedure you need is expensive requireing limited resources such as high priced specialist, expensive drugs, and hi-tech machines all of which in high demand and the government didn't budget enough for the services because they didn't have the funds to do so. Even though you don't have to pay for it, somebody does.

How about, there are more people in need of the equipment then can be accomadated so Governmental buraucrats will have to figure out which ones will die without the procedure and which ones won't.


The choice is be limited on medical care based on our ability to pay, or have some Governmental buraucrat decide whether or not you are worthy to expend the resources on. Either way it is rationing and I'm not sure which one is better.

Another way of looking at it, rationing based on yourself (your ability to pay) vs rationing because of some stranger making the decision for everyone.


Not enough money in the budget to provide enough drugs for everyone so someone has to decide who won't get those drugs.
Not enough money in the budget to keep enough MRI's available so you die waiting for your turn, or someone gets to decide whether or not to put you at the head of the line based on your age, your contributions to society, your education, whatever they decide to give to one and not give to another.
Fewer people decide to become doctors because they can get rich faster if they become a lawyer. So now we have fewer doctors available to handle more people. Most people don't chose the medical profession simply because they are nice guys who care about everyone.

Either way it's still rationing based on ability to pay. Now, your ability to pay, in the future the governments ability to pay.

[autorank]

67. I'm not advocating an ineffective system

There is enough resource and talent to provide for a decent health care system given the will. Your points about
Canada and the limitations there are important notes. My understanding is that hospitals get $X for a period of time
and after that runs out, it's over for the year. That makes no sense.

If we're going to switch from our system to Canada's or one like it, then this comparison is valid. It's very useful
in any case.

But defining what *we deserve* and can have in terms of what has been done doesn't make sense. This is a moral
question with a rational solution. If these people want to govern here, then they can earn their keep or get out. I
share your frustration and concern with bureaucrats making decisions. However, if properly guided and tasked, they can
do quite well to make things work.

Best wishes to you and thanks for the thoughtful comments.

[Daylight]

72. Medicaid stinks.

My sister just got Medicaid. They gave her a list of doctors to call who accept Medicaid. Of the Doctors who actually answered the phone none of them will take on new medicaid patients. So now she has the insurance she still has to use the emergency room. Her sons still has no medical. They got the loussy card but no Doctor will take them with the card.

I have VA. They act like they want to make sure I'm healthy wanting to do tests that don't really need to be done. It's almost like they are begging for work. One problem though, if I call for an appointment it can take up to 30 days to get one set up. If I got the flu, I'll be taking Nyquil and not seeing the doctor. By the time I'd get in I'd either be over it or dead. Still it's $16 per doctor visit and $8.00 per prescription and it covers me better than nothing at all.

I guess, for poor folks, Government insurance is better than no insurance at all. But for those who can afford to pay it would be worse than they are getting.

My sister followed our conversation with email, here is her exact quote;

I still have no regular dr but at least have gyno now for myself. My appt is next Thursday, I finally did it.]

[autorank]

74. Medicare, not Medicaid has potential

If I said Medicaid, my mistake, my apologies. Medicare plus a decent drug package negotiated like the VA does would be a good
starting point. Going from there would be the creative and productive party. (Medicaid is state by state and is
not a national solution).

The VA had some major turnaround because there are comments just like yours I'm hearing regularly, right down to the
appointment times.

There are, no doubt, bits and pieces out there that would constitute an excellent system right now and that could
evolve quickly to all of our benefit, those with a need for health care, those who provide support, etc.

It would also be a kick start for the economy. We're burdened with the huge disadvantage of trading with partners
that lack these costs. That hurts our ability to export and hurts domestic companies when they have to compete
with imports. I heard the president of John Deere say he was really ready for a decent program. What more does it
take?

[Daylight]

78. Medicaid is the government health care system for poor people.

Therefore Medicaid is the prime example on how government insurance would work.

In addition to the problem with finding a doctor who will accept medicaid, I read a report that Medicaid pays 40% of what other insurers pay which is sometimes below the cost of the healthcare so that doctors who take medicaid lose money when they take medicaid patients.

When you don't have to pay for the medical insurance yourself you'll tend to abuse the system. For example: When I was in the Army I would go on sick call when I got a headache. Why not, it didn't cost me any money.

or:

(FYI I'm still trying to figure out how to put quotes in, standard html code isn't working for me here which is what I use at most forums)

Anyhow "If it's a medical emergency, Erie County 911 will respond, but there is one address many of its dispatchers know by heart.

They find Scott Graham usually waiting at that Buffalo address for his ambulance several times a week.

"Sometimes two times a day," Graham told 2 On Your Side
...
Graham doesn't have a job, insurance or car. So, when he feels bad, he doesn't call a cab. He calls 911 to have an ambulance drive him to the hospital.

A 2 On Your Side investigation found that from January 2006 to May of this year, Rural Metro Ambulance picked him up 603 times.

Medicaid picked up the tab for each ride, costing taxpayers at least $118,158.
http://www.wgrz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69029&catid=37



Don't get me wrong I think everyone should have medical coverage whether they can afford it or not. I think everyone who works for a living should earn a living. But making the fantasy reality may not be very realistic.

How do we compete in a global market place when so many countries out there have their workers living on barely subsistent wages. We can't force them to provide for their work force better. And doing so here puts us at a disadvantage.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

70. Bump

[Hubert Flottz]

71. Bump...

:kick:

[autorank]

73. My compliments to the users on this thread

This is a challenging topic, to say the least. The responses here are a major part of presenting the issue due to
the respect shown to the topic and the seriousness of health care denied.