Blacklist

[H2O Man]

The discussions on DU about "Cambridge-Gate" have been interesting. Should anyone ever say that this forum is not representative of the general public again, I shall smile knowingly, and type in the response, "Oh, just read the threads about the arrest of Henry Louis Gates, Jr." For in these threads, I believe we can find all of the emotions, logic, experiences, and inability to identify with "others" that is part and parcel of most every debate on this topic in America today.

I have found myself searching for the single example that might help to illustrate how I view the many problems involved – yet, because there are indeed so many, a single example is unlikely to suffice. I could use any of dozens – and I do mean dozens – of examples of experiences that four of my relatives have had ….not because of any illegal behavior on their part, but simply because of their color. You can be a respected professional, a student scholar, a law-abiding high school athlete, and even a victim of a crime, and still be treated differently, because you are black or brown.

But because these were personal examples of life in small communities in rural, upstate New York, I thought that others might conclude that I am not entirely objective. So, I considered the example of my friend, who was incarcerated for 20 years for a crime he did not commit. Although one victim of a terrible crime told police my friend was not one of the gunmen, and another victim actually identified the real criminals before dying, and my friend did not remotely fit the description provided by the witnesses to the crime, my friend served 20 years. You can see a movie called "The Hurricane," starring Denzel Washington, about that experience.

Years later, after being cleared by the federal courts, my friend moved to Canada. There, one afternoon he was picked up "on suspicion" by police who were looking for a 19 year old cocaine salesman. My friend was 53 at the time. However, as one cop told reporters after recognizing the error, "he is in pretty good shape for a man his age." And he was, of course, black.

Again, I am certain that it could be said that I am not entirely objective when a close friend serves 20 years for a crime he didn’t commit. More, I could be accused of being jealous that no one on earth would confuse me for a 19 year old. Thus, I’ve decided to write about a situation that I am familiar with – including casual friendships with many of the people involved in a variety of ways – that became national news in the fall of 1992, and which continues to be at issue today.

In September of 1992, an elderly white woman living in the small city of Oneonta, NY, in rural Otsego County, reported to police that she had confronted an intruder in her home, and been assaulted. She described the thug as a young black male. The city and state police immediately began to investigate what clearly was a serious, violent crime.

Oneonta has a relatively small "minority" population. Most of the young black males who inhabit the city are students at one of two colleges: Hartwick College, which is a highly respected private school, and the State University College at Oneonta, or SUCO. There was some physical evidence that suggested the thug may have headed towards a trail leading to the SUCO dormitories.

Police investigators went to SUCO. The college’s president was on leave, due to illness. The person filling in provided the investigators with a list of the names and addresses of every young black male SUCO student. In the following days, the young black males attending SUCO were subjected to interrogation by investigators – not because there was any evidence that a single one of them was in any way involved, but because they were young, male, and, of course, black.

The situation became known as "the blacklist," and tarnished not only the reputation of SUCO, but of Oneonta as well. It was obviously a tense time. Those who serve as advocates for social justice know that "tense times" allow for opportunities to transform creative thinking into meaningful action. That was accomplished, at least in part, by the creation of the Oneonta Commission on Community Relations and Human Rights.

This commission was formed when citizens pressured the city government to address the needs of the community. And this obviously goes across the board: the diverse groups that create the community all have needs, including students and faculty at the colleges; the police; and certainly the residents of the city …..for it should not be overlooked that there was an elderly woman who was the victim of a violent crime within her own home.

Did this commission solve all the problems that it has sought to address in the years it has been in existence? No, of course not. But its value, and its potential to help identify both problems and avenues leading to resolution, cannot be denied. And the sad truth is that, like every village, town and city that combine to create our country, there still are problems.

The election of Barack Obama was an important milestone along the path that our nation is taking. However, we would be kidding ourselves, and indeed putting our communities’ safety at risk, if we believed that issues such as the SUCO blacklist were artifacts from a distant past. In fact, the Oneonta Commission on Community Relations and Human Rights has had a significant increase in reported concerns in the months since Barack Obama has been sworn into office. In February’s meeting, for but one example, they dealt with complaints concerning a black male college professor being confronted on a city street by a police office, simply because he was young, male, and of course, black. A doctor visiting a friend in Oneonta – also a doctor – had a similar experience. A dealer in real estate noted that prospective buyers who are black are not interested in the Oneonta housing market. College students have reported an increasing number of incidents that they believe are due entirely to "profiling." Commission members find that both the city government and police are less willing to engage in meaningful dialogue with them. Members have noted their impression that the city’s police chief does not seem to talk conversations with females – of any color – seriously.

When tensions build – no matter if it is within a family, a neighborhood, a community, or a country – there are distinct advantages in promoting discussions between those involved in a safe, organized manner. There are no advantages accrued by burying one’s head in the sand. I am convinced that issues involving racism and sexism will not be "solved" at any time in the near future. These are problems that we must deal with on an on-going basis. And by denying their existence, we only make it more likely that some small incident will serve as the fuse that lights up the larger keg of fear and hatred that exists within our society.

Thank you for reading this. Please give it some thought.

Your friend,
H2O Man

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Dear H2O Man,

My friend, I'm deeply troubled by many things in this country, but one of the worst things is our collective inability to 'step into someone else's shoes'. It doesn't matter if it's racial , sexual, gender, economic, or language related, our old biases come immediately to the forefront.
I can remember no criminal case I've heard about where every young, white male was considered a suspect and questioned. I can only image what insults and snubs have come your way.

It will be interesting to see how the 'beer party' at the White House goes tomorrow. Perhaps we'll get to an honest discussion.

[H2O Man]

7. You raise a key point

that I'd like to expand upon. And that is the ability and advantages of being able to "step into someone else's shoes."

This is almost always hard to do. It becomes harder in direct proportion to the tensions and hostilities involved. Indeed, there is a natural tendency to, when the sun goes down and the danger of the darkness becomes the greatest, to seek safety by joining together with one's own type. Much of the animal world does this, and for much of human history, it has worked to an extent. Yet today, when our country is confronted with grave dangers, we witness how dydfunction this behavior is. The stupidity of a Lou Dobbs dabbling in the after-birther movement comes to mind ..... as Chris Matthews recently said, it would be easy to dismiss this type of foolishness, but the sad fact is that the thug who shot the guard at the Holocaust Museum was a "birther." The fear and hatred that Dobbs et al promote sparked his fuse.

Yes, it is difficult to place one's self in the shoes of another. Yet it will prove far more difficult and damaging, should we fail to begin to do this.

Thank you.

[bobbolink]

16. Thank you very much for including "economic"! We poor and homeless folk are IGNORED,

for the most part, including by "progressives".

Growing up white and muddle-class, I was not prepared with street smarts for the prejudice I have encountered, and it has taken me a while to recognize it for what it is. Yet, when I speak out about it, it is ignored.

Reading this ongoing story has really enlightened me, because I've experienced some of the same things, but didn't see it for the prejudice it is----mainly by the cops.

What makes me feel hopeless is that there is NO indication that "progressives" will recognize this any time in the future. :(

[H2O Man]

20. Until the

progressive/liberal wing of the democratic party take hold of the message of Martin Luther King, Jr., regarding his proposed "Poor People's Campaign," we will not make any meaningful advancements in this country.

[bobbolink]

28. In the meantime, we suffer and die.

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change." Even though it means my death.

That's a hell of a lot of serenity!

[Ignis]

2. K&R: As always, an incredible post from H20 Man.

There are no advantages accrued by burying one’s head in the sand.

And that's the truth. :patriot:

We must use these (relatively) minor examples of racism to confront the larger specter of ingrained, institutionalized racism, and I hope Pres. Obama will use this opportunity to do just that. Good on him for speaking his mind on the subject--no matter how offended the various Fraternal Orders were--and good on him for taking this opportunity to sit down and actually discuss the subject with the participants in this one example. From such small seeds can grow mighty oaks.

[H2O Man]

8. Thank you.

I am convinced that our best option for dealing with issues such as racism and sexism, is to start in our own communities (sometimes, within our own extended families), and build the grassroots foundation needed to support the movement on a national level. And, of course, the international level.

[Enthusiast]

55. Thank you, H2O Man!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this issue.

[me b zola]

3. K&R

[H2O Man]

9. Thank you. n/t

[rosesaylavee]

4. Yes, why isn't there more empathy?

It seems more and more that 'mean' is the norm and that 'me and mine have ours the heck with the rest of ya' seems to be a respectable and endorsed type of behavior.

[H2O Man]

10. Right.

We are seeing the brewing of fear and hatred on a national level. Much of it is being pipped into people's living rooms, on the cable news shows. But those seeds of paranoia are finding a more fertile ground, as people experience hardships in their daily lives.

[OneGrassRoot]

61. Yes indeed. It is a critical time. Thanks, H20 Man. n/t

[Spazito]

5. Thank you for this

My views on racism come from many different 'sources' but the two that impacted me the most were:

Reading "Black Like Me" which was on the required reading list for one of my Literature courses in high school and then seeing the movie made from the book

Learning what had happened to you friend, Hurricane Carter and why it had happened.

[H2O Man]

11. "Black Like Me"

remains one of the most powerful books that I've ever read. I was lucky in high school, to have a teacher who encouraged us to read this, Malcolm's autobiography, and the works of James Baldwin.

[Spazito]

18. I realized, after already submitting my above post, I neglected to...

include one of the most impactive moments in my own life which profoundly affected my understanding of the obscene nature and impact of discrimination and it was this:

I attended a high school where there were also First Nations students who had been forcible removed from their parents and housed in what are now known infamously as 'residential schools'. The 'residence' in which the First Nations children were being 'housed' was directly beside the school. Those students were treated very differently in a very overt manner by many and I wondered why but truly didn't put much more thought than that, just wondered.

One day, one of my friends, a First Nations student, needed to go to the 'residence' to get something and asked if I would like to go with them. I agreed and proceeded to accompany my friend. Before my friend could even go into the 'residence, they first had to ask permission to both enter the building and for me to accompany them. Permission was given.

In my naivety at that time, I fully expected my friend to have a room of their own where whatever it was they wanted to get would be found. Instead, my friend took me to a huge room where there were many, many beds, all lined up in perfect order, all beds identical in their coverings and perfectly made up in what I knew to be military style due to my father's insistence of that same style at home. There was nothing, absolutely nothing of a personal nature in that room and it was then I knew something was horribly wrong, I did not know what, I learned later how horribly wrong it really was, but when I walked out of that 'residence' I truly was a different person from the one who walked in.

Even in typing this, the feeling I felt then comes back immediately.

[grantcart]

38. "Nigger" by Dick Gregory did it for me.

[H2O Man]

40. Oh, yes.

Absolutely. A GREAT book.

[grantcart]

43. "Momma every time you hear that word you know they are advertising my book"

The greatest sub line for a title in the history of publishing.

[Ignis]

52. James Baldwin did it for me, too. Powerful stuff. (nt)

[Mira]

115. My eyes started to open when I read "Soul on Ice" by Eldridge Cleaver N/T

[flyarm]

6. doesn't always relate to the color of one's skin ..

be it black or brown..or very white....it can be just the surname!!

I know I am married to a hispanic man and I had a terrible experience ..just because of my last name, with a police man(?, and that is questionable..) when he saw my last name on my licence, in SO.CALIF..seems he thought I was too young and thought I was too hispanic (by the name) ..and must have "stolen" my Porsche automobile..and put me through hell on earth, both physically and verbally.

[H2O Man]

12. Absolutely.

Hatred and ignorance, like cancer, spread and seek to destroy all in their path.

[L. Coyote]

103. long hair. n/t

[Forkboy]

13. K&R

You, Sir, are a real treasure on DU. :thumbsup:

[H2O Man]

21. Thank you.

I appreciate that!

[myrna minx]

14. K&R.

[H2O Man]

22. Thanks n/t

[malaise]

15. Lovely post H2O Man

Thoughtful as usual.
K & R

[H2O Man]

23. It's a touchy subject.

I hope that I added something of value to the discussion on DU.

[Horse with no Name]

17. I am a middle-aged white woman and obviously I have nothing but anecdotal

evidence, as it were, that racism does indeed still exist.
My daughter and her friends went to a state park in Oklahoma.
One of the young ladies that went with them dates a black man.
They walked to the bathroom. This young black man is very intimidating--he is a linebacker who plays college football.
They walked to the shower. She went in the women's shower and finished before he came out of the men's shower at the campground.
In the meantime, a young white boy came out of the shower and started sexually harassing her.
The young black man came out and told him he should leave. And he did.
That is all that was said. There was no altercation.
About 30 minutes later, the Park Ranger came by their campground and told my daughter and their group that they had to leave because of the "altercation". They had already paid the camp fees and did nothing yet they had to leave. The other boy who was sexually harassing the young woman did not.
Not to mention it put 8 kids under the age of 21 on the road at 1:00 at night to head home as they didn't have money to stay anywhere else.
Anyone that denies that racism exists in this country lives in a vacuum.
Very good OP, as usual.

[H2O Man]

24. This morning,

my older daughter and I were discussing this. I went through a list of things that her cousins have experienced, for no reason other than being young, black, and male. She was surprised by the sheer number of incidents that I told her about.

There is a very real difference between hearing about a case on the news, and having it actually happen when it involves your family. The incident you describe helps you to put other incidents into a context that others simply cannot.

Thanks!

[SidneyCarton]

19. I thank you for an insightful analysis H2O man

The first time I heard of Reuben Carter was listening to one of my mother's Bob Dylan CD's as a kid.

I have tried not to say anything about the Gates affair because it does not seem terribly clear cut, a cop and a black civilian entered into a tense situation with all the underlying fears and prejudices that come naturally to them both (and for reasons of varying validity) and a sadly familiar mess occured. Thank you for putting that mess into perspective.

[H2O Man]

25. Thanks, SC

The worst thing that we could do would be to allow an opportunity such as this one to pass by, and in effect cause greater divisions, rather than take full advantage of the opening for the progress that comes from understanding one another.

[JonLP24]

26. K&R

I stumbled here on accident as I don't come to GD much but I saw the author and I knew it was going to be great post. Not a bad post yet by you, my friend.

:kick:

[H2O Man]

27. Thank you.

I am hoping that it will result in a civil discussion .... something that DU:GD participants really are good at, much of the time.

[KoKo]

29. K&R...thanks for going "deeper" into this. n/t

[H2O Man]

33. Thank you.

[spanone]

30. k&r

the brightest light on d.u.

[H2O Man]

34. Thank you.

Lots of experience in this area has provided me with insight on what has the potential to work, and what doesn't.

[G_j]

31. yes, the only way to grow

is if people actively attempt to grow,
Which also translates into making the world a better place for everyone.

[H2O Man]

35. Exactly.

It's not going to happen if we wait for others to improve things.

[Solomon]

32. Checking in and bowing solemnly.

Lots of us minorities have a double consciousness that allows us to be a bit more empathetic I think. I've had a double consciousness since the age of 6 when I found out about slavery. It's always there. But it was dealt a serious blow when Obama was elected. I started to feel like an "American".

But now when I see the arguments made here and in the media about certain events as they unfold, it gets disheartening.

We definitely have a long way to go, but we will never get there if we don't talk about it.

[H2O Man]

37. It doesn't seem like

a coincidence that the commission in Oneonta is getting more complaints, since President Obama took office. Of course, I do not believe that there is any such thing as "coincidence" to begin with.

Discussions on these topics can cause discomfort for some. Failure to discuss them allows pain to continue for others. I think our society is mature enough to handle the discomfort.

[EFerrari]

36. "You're the first negro to get a Mellon fellowship?

They're going to call it the watermelon fellowship from now on." -- Henry Louis Gates, Sr.

Eta: Yes, the conversation continues.

[H2O Man]

39. I have enjoyed

reading your contributions on a number of threads on this general topic. Keep up the good work. You are a Voice of Conscience on this forum, and that is greatly appreciated.

[Stephanie]

41. Thanks

One note - I want everyone to know this. Henry Louis Gates does not blame the woman who called the police. Not at all.

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,0

Skip Gates Speaks
The Root's Editor-in-Chief Henry Louis Gates Jr. talks about his arrest and the outrage of racial profiling in America.
July 21, 2009 at 5:34 PM

==snip==

TR: What do you make of the suspicious neighbor who called the police with an erroneous report of “two black men” trying to enter your apartment? Was this neighborhood watch gone wrong?

HLG: I don’t know this person, and I’m sure that she thought she was doing the right thing. If I was on Martha’s Vineyard like I am now and someone was trying to break into my house, I would hope that someone called the police and that they would respond. But I would hope that the police wouldn’t arrest the first black man that they saw—especially after that person gives them an ID—and not rely on some trumped-up charge, which is what this man was doing.

[H2O Man]

42. That's an important point.

Thank you for posting it. There is a heck of a lot of misinformation being pushed on cable.

[TahitiNut]

44. It seems we're again of like minds.

:pals: :hug: :hi:

Going to our respective corners and coming out fighting ... should be reserved for the ring, not community relations. Life isn't a zero-sum game.

[H2O Man]

45. Right.

There are many tactics that one can use in a struggle for justice.

[David Zephyr]

46. Another K&R from me, H2O Man

K&R!!! :)

[H2O Man]

56. Thank you, David! n/t

[the blues]

47. Hear, hear.

Reminds me of a time in college when various clubs on campus were selling food at booths in the quad. A male student (who happened to be white) got upset and complained about being short-changed at the Black Student Union's booth. I was surprised at the sudden tension in the air over a friggin' hot dog -- until one of the guys running the booth (who happened to be black) said, "We can work it out." And they did. Sometimes, those words -- "We can work it out" -- are strangely difficult to remember in the heat of an argument, yet they are powerful (and you can dance to them).

:fistbump:

[H2O Man]

57. "We can work it out"

An outstanding song, and a good stance to approach conflict from. Thank you.

[Divine Discontent]

48. k&r 44 for #44 & the battles he faces before he even got to the 'white' house

and how race is something that is hard-wired in all of our brains, but our better angels has the ability to override with maturity to understand that we, mostly, are creatures trying to find joy with one another, and that each of us deserves respect as someone who deals with many of the same things we do - regardless of the packages or style the issues come in that we confront!

[Igel]

49. Race isn't hardwired.

The tendency to be tribal is. There's a big difference (note that I'm using "tribal" in an extended sense, where "tribe" is replaceable by any other kind of grouping).

Race is just one kind of boundary we can look at. Language, religion or other beliefs, loyalties, etc., etc., are others. If you have a shared history and interpretation, if you have a single culture and way of doing things, if you share responses in most situations and have the same outlooks, race doesn't much matter, it's not where the boundary lies between "like me" and "not like me."

The tendency to be tribal is the "the worst of my kind is better than the best of your kind." We're all given to it at times. The struggle is to overcome it.

Things that reduce the sharing of culture, that give rise to multiple cultures and groups side by side, to exacerbating differences between groups without having a single unifying theme and way of doing things that makes those possible boundaries trivial and unimportant, are contribute to factionalization. If you restrict marriage to your group, if you emphasize differences between your group and others, if you are explicit about pride in your group and how much better your group is, if you point out that your allegiances are elsewhere and not to the same figure or ideals of a majority group, given how we've evolved you're just asking to be excluded, and the majority will be sure to oblige. I may consider such oppression to be wrong, but that's how we're built.

[H2O Man]

58. I think that "race"

is, at best, a description of the larger tribes of humanity. And when we look at "tribe" closely, we see that it has always been a social identity that involves extended families and clans, uniting with those they identify as having much in common with. (This is, of course, the type of brief description that one writes in the early morning hours; I'm doing a better job in a series of interviews on the human history of central New York, which my sons are conducting as part of a book they are writing.)

During times of social stress, tribes tend to behave in one of two ways: they either identify neighboring tribes as "the enemy," and engage in blood feuds, raiding, and battles against them; orthey develop tribal confederacies. There is always the dual options, of doing good or bad, of adding to understanding or confusion, of working towards peace and justice, or engaging in hate and violence.

We are at a strange time, both as a nation (in the USA), and as the only true race, the human race. We no longer have the luxury of chosing to be ignorant, stupid, selfish, hateful and violent, without very direct and serious consequences. I tend to think that one of the best options we have, is forming a grass roots confederacy. Certain, the Washington DC tribe is not going to advocate for social justice on their own. But as a confederacy, we can. In fact, if one looks at the Constitution, and perhaps especially the Bill of Rights, and puts it into a group context, rather than individual context, it may be that we can revive it.

[bleever]

50. A friend of mine and I sometimes pull off the road on the same shady spot

to make some phone calls, or eat lunch.

No one's ever noticed me. He's been questioned, by well-meaning citizens, just to be sure.

But "well-meaning" in this case is alerted by a black guy, but not a white guy. That's fundamentally wrong.


We have to comprehend that good people can be at cross-purposes, even to their own professed values.

[H2O Man]

59. Right.

There are good and decent people, who without knowingly doing so, behave in ways that are indeed racist, sexist, etc. But if we point fingers at them, and accuse them of being other than good and decent, they are going to be offended. It is better to appeal to their good and decent natures, in order to make positive changes.

And, of course, there are racist, sexist jerks. They are the ones that we should be confronting. Yet, in confronting them, it is as important to allow them an avenue to grow and change, as it is to keep them from being able to harm others. That is the best way to change individuals, and thus society.

[unapatriciated]

68. If I could rec this post I would. We will not advance until we honestly discuss it and

face our own bigotry. Most of us are good and decent people, who discriminate without realizing it. I faced bigotry (a lot from my maternal grandparents) early as a child in a working class poor family. As I grew older I learned the discrimination I faced was minor in comparison to people of color. Now as a grandparent I have the extreme pleasure of enjoying a diverse and multicultural family. I give my parents credit for my growth especially my mother, who always asked that I "walk in their shoes for just a day" before I did or said something I may regret later. She had married out of class and religion but for love.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

51. What happened?

In the 1992 case of the break-in, what happened?

Was anyone ever arrested? Charged? Tried? Convicted?

How was the investigation conducted?

[H2O Man]

60. No arrest(s).

No suspect(s). Unsolved.

The investigation was handled by a joint effort, which included the NYS BCI and Oneonta City Police.

[PSzymeczek]

53. I do sincerely attempt

to be empathetic to everyone. I really do. I'm a 56-year-old, straight, white female. and I try to put myself in other peoples' shoes. And I know that Sgt Crowley submitted a falsified report, whether intentionally or not. It does occur to me that he should have a better recall of major facts like he did not speak to the caller.

[H2O Man]

62. At this point,

I believe that Sgt. Crowley's report states he did talk to the woman who made the initial call, and that her lawyer has publicly stated that she told him she did not speak to Sgt. Crowley. Obviously, only one of the two can be telling an accurate version of events. Hence, the truth cannot be known until this is cleared up. And if the truth isn't known, the problems cannot be resolved, just passed over.

[EFerrari]

63. This lady is reportedly having a press conference today.

Maybe that will help.

[Number23]

54. This might piss some folks off here, but I really don't give a crap.

God bless you. Thank you.

[H2O Man]

69. Peace.

[Mopar151]

64. Well said!

Joe south said it well, too - and a nice vid to go with it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do4VZxkrLhI

The BadBoys Englsh class (with the alky teacher)in my high school made an 8mm film/pop music soundtrack (hey, it was '74) with this as the title song. Somehow, it was shown to most of the school, despite lampooning the foibles of Boones Farm Regional pretty well.

Lynrd Skynrd's take (Things goi'n on) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1btRAxJFteQ&feature=related

[H2O Man]

70. I remember

Joe South's "Walk a Mile in My Shoes." I'm pretty sure that I've posted the lyrics at least once on DU. Heck of a good song.

[sui generis]

65. I am in favor of discussions

Also, in favor of stopping and being rational.

I get that in many cases it is incontrovertibly about skin color. I also get that in many cases, using skin color as the sole reason for a complaint is both counterproductive, and a "cop out", so to speak, for not taking responsibility.

I was fairly neutral in earlier posts, but the vile ad hominem attacks I got on MY character for daring to be neutral meant to me that that there were some people in the discussion who weren't mature enough to be engaging.

Blame the victim? Hell no. Blame the victim psychology - at this point I'm no longer talking about Gates, but about some nasty children right here on DU. True, but sad.

[H2O Man]

71. As Ben Franklin said,

"When passions drive, let reason hold the reins."

[noiretextatique]

94. i think we have to find respectful ways to communicate

"victim" and "victim psychology" aren't partcularly respectful terms. they can be seen as dismissive...a complaint that i think has some merit.

[sui generis]

106. but to dismiss them altogether as disrespectful

is also dismissive.

The fact is, we do play the victim some times, and we do so because of social conditioning, our own experiences, and because of the psychological factors that surround those experiences and conditioning.

That's why in a discussion among adults, those phrases are NOT seen as inflammatory when used to examine root causes and alternate outcomes.

[noiretextatique]

108. it depends on the context, actually

if you are dicussing poverty and using terms like "culture of victimhood," it's very unlikely that you are going to engage a poor person. i may believe in the term "white privilege," but i don't think i can use it with someone who believes we live in "post-racial" america. it's not about "being adult" it's about engaging people in a way so they will hear you and listen to what you have to say, if that's what you want.

[sui generis]

117. actually I disagree.

You remain focused on this "victim" thing, which betrays your agenda, however polite.

In discussing crime in an area of ethnic concentration you CAN, and I HAVE, engaged the conversation with arguments about associating racism to the culture of poverty. You will most certainly have "poor" people engaged, because even "poor" people know that there is not such thing as the noble poor any more than I believe there is a subculture of the noble rich. Everyone is their own case.

Now, if you personally find the phrase "culture of poverty" to be offensive, then you're either arguing on behalf of people who don't care, or you have an agenda, but I doubt you are personally impacted. My experience is that people are willing to abstract problems if you are willing to say you are abstracting them when you open the conversation.

I don't have to play by kindergarten rules of conversation. There will be vexatious people who are easily offended and willing to remain offended at any cost, and merely drawing breath is enough to get them riled up. I'm not responsible for their opinions, and nobody who is willing to really talk through their perceptions is going to cede any credibility to a person like that.

Finally, I am sick to death of the inflammatory mob-baiting racist-identifiers here. If you don't agree with them, you're a racist. I'm a racist for sure (sarcasm), which is incredibly ironic to me, considering my family of origin. Those people get no quarter from me, and I'm not the tiniest bit afraid of their myopic and self serving observations about my supposed eugenic proclivities, any more than you would be concerned that someone characterized you as a piece of green cheese.

[noiretextatique]

118. ok...you're an angry person

my "agenda" was to tell you that if you insist on framing a debate a certain way, people may not listen to you. who are the "inflammatory mob-baiting racist-indetifiers" you speak of? i bet you have trouble communicating with them too.

[ColesCountyDem]

66. As a former deputy sheriff, this whole incident has troubled me greatly.

It troubles me greatly that the officer involved failed to 'see the forest for the trees'. Having now heard the initial 911 call, the officer was justified in questioning Dr. Gates, BUT... After Dr. Gates identified himself as the resident of the home and had simply locked himself out of his house-- a not uncommon experience, regardless of race, age or gender-- the officer could and should have verified Dr. Gates' identity, an easy process. He allowed himself to become distracted by Dr. Gates' anger, even though common sense tells me that that anger was most likely provoked by the officer's own words and conduct. Provoking Dr. Gates was his first mistake; losing focus was his second. A good police officer cannot afford to lose his or her objectivity and allow a 'contact' or investigation to become a 'pissing contest'.

Good post!

[H2O Man]

72. For many years,

part of my duties in social work included tasks such as responding to "community crisis calls." Sometimes, this was done with police, other times not. I think that we expected that some folks would not be pleased to see us, and might even say some things that they intended as insults. That's part of the job description. I never took insults personally. Threats, obviously, are different. But it seems clear that Gates was, at most, attempting to insult, not threaten.

[democrank]

67. Bless you, H20 Man.

The truth will set us free.

[H2O Man]

73. Thank you.

I think the responses to the OP have been quite interesting.

[redqueen]

74. By denying their existence, we make things worse.

We enable proud bigots, we soothe the consciences of bigots who are in denial... and the message that people bearing the brunt of these problems get is "get used to it, cause that's just the way it is."

The idea of wanting to bury one's head about these issues... I'll never understand that. But usually it seems while the blinders are up in one context, they're down in another area - in an area in which one has a personal stake. So the idea of trying to see things from other people's perspectives is key.

[H2O Man]

82. True.

I tend to think that our society promotes burying one's head, though. Or filling it with useless nonsense. So I try not to find fault with most people who do exactly that.

[redqueen]

84. Yes... I should try harder to do that same thing.

However, at times like this... it is really, really hard.

[H2O Man]

88. It is harder

when one encounters a person who is purposefully attempting to stir shit up. And that happens, from time to time. Even on DU.

[Mira]

75. Thank you, as always, very important to us all. Your

experience, insight, and willingness to share are greatly appreciated.

K&R

[H2O Man]

81. Years of experience

don't amount to much, if one doesn't put them to use.

Thank you!

[Mira]

112. YES.

The trick is to be secure in that you had the experience and have something to offer, take out your ego, learn from it yourself, and put it out there for us to learn from if we can.
You do all of that so solidly. And I appreciate it every time, and only miss a thread of yours by accident.
M

[mrs_p]

76. very well-written and well-argued post

[H2O Man]

79. Thank you. n/t

[bc3000]

77. You start off talking about the Hurricane???

Do a little reading - he was obviously guilty.

His situation is much like that of Mumia Abu-Jamal, another criminal that was guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, yet had his cause championed by whites after the fact using nonsense conspiracy theories that would make a 9/11 truther or a birther blush.

I think blacks in this country have this idea that the police approach white people with a wink and a nod and a how do you do. Guess what? That's not the case. In general, cops are huge assholes and they usually treat white people like crap too. It's going to be difficult to change things as long as we blame it on color. A piece of advice to black people: Next time a cop is acting like a huge asshole and treating you like crap, pause and think for a second: "Maybe he's not treating me like this because I am black, but because he is a huge asshole who treats everybody like crap."

[H2O Man]

78. Clown

[david_vincent]

80. Remember Kenneth Walker

His murder seems to have been largely forgotten. Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1069337

[H2O Man]

83. Thanks for posting this.

It's much appreciated.

[barbtries]

90. i was previously unfamiliar with his story

and shocked - believe it or not - at what happened to him. he was murdered. has his family seen anything resembling justice?

[harmonicon]

85. very rarely do I read posts that are this long...

... because they're usually chock-full of stupid bullshit. Anyway, I trusted that this wouldn't be the case with you, and I was right. The implicit racism that I've seen on this board lately is very disturbing, but not all that surprising. Usually it's accepted around here that the poor are shit and sub-human. The number of people here who write about "rednecks" and "hicks" with disdain amazes me. These are the people who make up the country which they supposedly love, and the disdain seems to be largely class-based. Well, I am poor, and if I'm not one, at least many members of my family, like my grandfather who fought in WWII and was a real New Deal Democrat. To failure to see racism as what it was constructed to be - a way to easily class a group of people as sub-human in a hierarchical class system in one fell swoop - and that relationship with other sweeping condemnations of class astounds me. This shit is why so many "rednecks" hate liberals. Just as the right-wing supports racism to keep the poor divided, we do no better when we condemn a large percentage of the population because of their class or culture. The division which is caused is the same.

[H2O Man]

89. Valid points.

Thank you for this post. I absolutely agree.

[Gregorian]

86. In The Heat Of The Night

I've been fighting to see that Troy Davis gets a fair trial. Not too long ago I watched In The Heat Of The Night. It was physically difficult for me to watch, the irony was so heavy. Having grown up in a highly educated town in the shadow of Stanford university, bigotry and racism was something I learned about much later in my adult life. One would expect that instead of repeating the same errors, we would be growing as a specie. And maybe we are. But only through a kind of social heavy handed force that holds down the lid of repression, hate. The police in that movie were looking not to solve a crime, but to get their work over as easily as possible. Were it not that the already assumed suspect were a highly educated cop himself, he most likely would have died at the end of a rope.

I myself fell victim to bigotry. After Vietnam there was a big influx of Vietnamese into this country. For my own reasons, I was unhappy about it. In my own way, I understand the feelings behind racism. But I am fortunate in that I learned the truth about those people. I discovered their story. I had people around me who held none of those feelings, and so was exposed to the truth about them over time. I got to hear their stories. And with great relief, all of my hatred vanished. I am fortunate, as harboring those feelings is more destructive to those holding them than those with whom they are held against. Their music, their stories, their food.

This issue is critically important. It isn't about race. It isn't about anything but the very ignorance from which it grow.

Intelligence is the only way forward. Knowledge. We can overcome our weakness and lack of information. It's very simple. And from that comes understanding.

Assumptions and premature conclusions grow into false facts.

As I sit here, I am suddenly thinking about those who are not discriminated against. And I'm sidetracked by it. Somewhat confused. I'm thinking of Dick Cheney. I'm thinking of those who are not perpetrated against, but who do the perpetrating. And of course, these are the people we're talking about. Perhaps they are in bigger trouble than those who suffer under their curses.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this.

[H2O Man]

92. Well, I'll give it

a shot .... and even if it isn't exactly where you were headed, I hope that you'll find it makes sense.

We are all, at times, a prisoner of our own misconceptions. We are, after all, human beings, and that involves being a combination of things, and which also includes the potential to grow. As you note, people can be subjected to their own errors in thinking for a variety of reasons .... the large-scale horrors, such as the Vietnam war, do take a toll on a society. And that toll is on people. And so any person who was alive in the period in question, be they a veteran, a family member of a dead or wounded soldier, or even a person who protested against the war, could have their perception impaired.

Yet the evolution of human beings is not to be found in physical changes -- not at this point -- but rather, the evolution of their consciousness. And a person need not be "religious" or "spiritual" to understand that. It's something that is experienced inside your own head, rather than in any four walls. We learn, we grow. Often, we find ourselves frustrated when we make the same (or similar) mistakes, but again, we are human. We must be patient with ourselves, as we must be with others. And in doing that, we begin to recognize old errors in thinking when they pop up in our minds, and we are able to recognize them before we act on them. That's evolution. That's growth.

In regard to Dick Cheney, I suspect that he represents a basic type of human, who has the characteristics of a parasite. He grows off of other people's fears, anxieties, and hatreds. So, if for example, Muslims and Jews and Christians could grow to understand one another -- something that their texts recommend -- then tape worms like Cheney could not feed upon those negative qualities that they require for nourishment. Likewise, if black folk and white folk really got to know one another on a large scale, those who feast upon "racial" hatreds would be forced to change their diet. And if poor people and middle class people removed the psychological barriers that separate them, they would not only find out how much they have in common, but they would not be willing to be taxed by those who benefit by building such barriers.

I'll stop. I do get carried away some times!

[Gregorian]

104. I can never get tired of growth.

My anger toward the Vietnamese immigrants was over my own fear of losing something I felt they were taking away. Completely unrelated to the war. And if anything I had more of a tendency to feel empathy for them due to the war. Anything can be the fuel for hatred. And it is most often a misunderstanding of the true reality which causes the trouble. Even in the case of invading a country for it's resources. A fear of scarcity, perhaps. Fear and greed are usually at the bottom of things.

I am full of fear. I can stand in the midst of a burning building and maintain my ability to function. Yet I have great anxiety over scarcity. Funny how that is. But what I really want to say is that I believe the answers are extremely simple. I believe it always boils down to something trivial. And this is the reason why I believe we can work out the troubles, and have great optimism. I find myself hugely upset over how I see people not using what consciousness they have to try to avoid the troubles we find ourselves in. This is what fuels my anger now. So little effort is needed. And this is what I saw when Obama invited Gates and his arresting officer over for a beer. Together, we must go.

[EFerrari]

111. When you were growing up near Stanford and I was growing up in Sunnyvale

we didn't notice discrimination because we were children living in segregated communities. We didn't miss what we never knew.

Isn't that something?

I didn't know until I was in my early teens that literally over the railroad tracks was where people of color lived in Sunnyvale. I was a kid. :shrug:

[Gregorian]

113. The best years of my life were working at the VA hospital in Palo Alto.

I worked in a lab with all black employees. That was how I learned about East Palo Alto. I knew it was there. I knew it was lower income. I knew it was on the other side of the freeway. But I didn't know these were the best people on earth. They shaped my life. I learned about a culture within America. One with soul.

Willis Jackson was my supervisor. The best man I've ever known. He grew up in Montgomery Alabama during the civil rights protests. A tough man. He drank and fought. The most honest and good man I'll probably ever know.

It's odd that I would never know racism. I attribute that to being on that peninsula. It is an educated place. I'm not really fond of that place. It does seem to lack the soul I knew in that lab. That was it's own little world. The radio playing Johnny Guitar Watson, and all the rest. And me just a little white kid. I will always love that time.

It's not fair. And I was also treated unfairly because of my physical body. I was white, but I was shunned for another aspect of the human physique. So maybe that's how I ended up internalizing the struggle that so many have endured.

It must have been horrific to try and just live out life in the south.

I know of no better feeling than the liberation and happiness that comes from free minds meeting without prejudice. I could tell stories. But it's late, and tomorrow is just around the other side of the night.

[Me.]

87. Sterling!

[H2O Man]

93. Heck of a thread,

isn't it? This is the DU that I like so much.

[TheMadMonk]

91. A recent post here on DU illustrated this quite well to me.

I believe it was in a (sub?)discussion about "going back home". I can't recall the name of the poster, and I wouldn't point fingers if I did.

What stuck out to me from their post, was that in describing their travel through a "certain neighbourhood" late at night was not that they felt the need to lock their car doors, and get the hell out of there as quickly as possible. Sadly such neighbourhoods exist and it is exactly the attitudes under discussion here that create them. No what stuck out like dogs balls to me, was that a generally respected member of this online community felt the need to mention that the young thugs hanging out in groups on street corners were bee ell ay cee kay.

[H2O Man]

96. I thank you

for several reasons. The first is that you posted what you did -- and I'll get to what I think is among the most important points that you make in a minute. But, first, thank you for what you did not post -- for this shows that by not finger-pointing, we are able to keep the focus on what is important. I surely do appreciate that.

Now, what you mention is, as you know, very common. If, for example, white people listen to their white friends, they will hear "black" as a frequent descriptive word, though rarely "white." Yet, before we can begin to attribute this to an individual's level of racist thinking (much less reach a conclusion), I would remind people of Minister Malcolm X.

As we know, Malcolm had come out of prison, and began to preach a theology that, among other things, taught that white people were "devils." But he came to recognize that this was not true -- that it was not an attribute of "white" people. But he did not, of course, change in his opposition to racism. He grew. He evolved.

After breaking with Elijah's NOI, Malcolm used his trip to Africa as a vehicle to present his new level of understanding. Included were his story of a meeting with a leader, who was described by Malcolm as revolutionary. He was also white, and he pointed out to Malcolm that if being white made people a devil in Malcolm's view, it excluded him as a brother.

Malcolm told his friends in the US that this made him realize that it was the system in the US that was racist. And that the racist system influenced the behaviors of everyone. Now that is revolutionary. (Of course, today, many of us know that this is indeed the case.)

My father used to tell me that it takes people living amongst others before the fears disolve. He said that it can take two generations before the stains of hatred are washed away. I'm not convinced it happens that quickly on the larger scale, and so I wish that our judicial system were better structured to deal with such issues.

[noiretextatique]

95. thanks for this opportunity for respectful dialogue

i agree with you the DU is a microcosm of america, not necessarily the bastion of liberal/progressive thought that some fantasized about on occasion. it's been quite interesting battling here over racial issues for 8+ years now. i know those battles changed some hearts and minds, but battling supposed allies does get tiring. it's really refreshing to see so many posts of late from people who are actually allies :hi:

[H2O Man]

97. It does

get tiring, sometimes. No doubt about that. There are some OPs and posts that just make me shake my head.

I'm not fond of age-ism, but there are times that I suspect that part of it has to do with experience. There are many DUers who are old enough, and experienced enough, to remember the battles that liberal/progressives engaged in for civil rights, women's rights, etc. And there are people who are too young. There is also current experience: some of us are engaged in on-going struggles for human rights in our own lives -- no group more so than the gay & lesbian community -- and others are not.

So there is plenty of empty space between people. Too much, in fact. We can fill it in by efforts to create a true brotherhood and sisterhood, or we will become further divided. There are no other options.

It's a funny thing -- being an old person myself, I remember how the Nixonites in 1967-68 labored to plant seeds of resentment, supicion, and fear in the rows separating groups of people. That's how a rat like Nixon was elected. I think the same general thing is happening again. It's our job to stop it.

[noiretextatique]

99. agreed

it is our job to stop it. i don't think younger people really understand how recently and how drasticaly this society changed. i'm 50, and i remember how different things were when i was a child. i remember living in a segregated community, and i remember being told i COULD NOT do certain things, like play the tenor saxophone, because i was a girl. we have to continue this dialogue too so people understand that liberal and progressive ideals transformed america...and not that long ago. unfortunately the backlash is the context that most younger people grew up experiencing, not the transformaiton.

[robertpaulsen]

98. K & R! Thanks for contributing to a thoughtful discussion on this subject.

:kick:

[Generic Other]

100. As a person of mixed heritage I have experienced it firsthand

And I only look vaguely ethnic being part-Asian. But I know firsthand how native Americans and Hispanics are treated because I am often mistaken for both. I can only imagine how much worse African Americans are treated.

The worst things I recall come from long ago in my childhood. I went to school wearing my hair in a mess-proof ponytail. My Asian mom would die if a hair dared fall out of place. The ultimate neat freak. But the school nurse when noting my reluctance to undo the rubber band (fear of my mom's wrath for messing it up), after a very cursory examination said to the teacher "She has lice. All those Mexican kids do." They sent me to the principal's office where I was left alone all day--a 5 year old whose Asian mother didn't speak English. When my Anglo father got off work, he was forced to track me down. I had been left at the school, forgotten by the staff after the end of the day. At 6 o'clock that night, my father finally found me. I did not have lice. The next day, my mother cut my hair off. I still have the hair to this day. A least a foot long. Soft baby hair. Very symbolic to me. And not the last time, I would encounter people like that school nurse.

When I was an adult, I once entered a store with my husband only to be dragged out by him rather brusquely. When I asked why, he told me he had heard one of the clerks say to the other, "Watch her. Indians always steal." There is no way to chalk this incident off to undue sensitivity on my part.

And why is it my husband can cash checks at retail stores without being asked for ID? I once bought shoes at a fancy store where I wrote a check, and they demanded two pieces of ID. My husband walked in the store two seconds later, bought some clothes with a check and was not even asked to show ID. This happens so often I refuse to pay if I go shopping at malls with him. Of course if I ask if this is racial profiling, I set off a howl of people saying I am being too sensitive.

How about when I am first in line to buy food at a congested food stand, and I am served last even when other customers tell the vendor I was first?

Or when I went to Montana and stopped at a bar miles from anywhere and asked to use the bathroom. I was told to go out in the woods.

These are examples of daily indignities that to me seem based on racial profiling, behavior white people rarely experience. And I only experience them because of mistaken assumptions about my race.

I know this because when I am seen as Asian, I am treated differently. Like people talk louder and slower. Even though I am an English teacher, they assume they hear an accent when I speak. Even though English is my native language. I love it when I hear I speak English so well by some surprised white person. Well, considering I lived in the good old USA my whole life... These are the sort of things white Americans rarely experience. I think African Americans experience it constantly. Much more than I do.

My friend an African American professor was pulled over while drinking pink lemonade. The cop said another driver had reported she was drinking and driving. He made her take a sobriety test. Oh, did I mention this woman is a non-drinking Baptist Sunday School teacher? A Shakespearean scholar? Driving while black and drinking pink liquid. In her hot graduation gown headed for the yearly ceremony which she nearly missed.

People don't share these stories because they are dismissed as anomalies, or oversensitivity, or meaningless. They are questioned as Gates' story has been. And mostly people are silenced by the unproveable nature of the accusation. How can you prove what someone else's intent is? What is in their heart? Like with rape victims, you need blood and bruises to be taken seriously when you raise questions about racism.

[EFerrari]

107. When I was about five, I watched my favorite uncle washed racial slurs

off the side of our house. He didn't say anything to me and I couldn't read English yet but I remember it was big and that he looked angry.

That's when I knew our family was different and that some people didn't like us.

[reflection]

101. Proud to be the 99th rec.

I'm sure it will be over 100 soon.

[sellitman]

102. Proud to be #100

You Sir are one of this sites best.

Check that, one of humanities best.

[Me.]

105. !

:kick:

[EFerrari]

109. Indeed.

:kick:

[EFerrari]

110. kick

[hfojvt]

114. a few questions

Are you really friends with Hurricane Carter? Have you ever told that story? I normally do not read your boxing threads. I sorta gave up on boxing when Howard Cosell did.

Also you never mentioned how the Oneonta case ended. Unsolved perhaps? Did it turn out to be a white guy? Or did it turn out to be one of the students at SUCO? Given the evidence they had, I am not sure why the black students at SUCO should not have been questioned. You said interrogation, so there may have been something more involved in the questioning. If the suspect was a brown haired white guy, then why shouldn't I be questioned if I goto school there? It's not like I have not been accused of theft many times. That's what happens when there is a crime, and it is another insidious part of the crime. Everyone becomes a suspect. I don't see how questioning becomes a big deal until it crosses over the line into harrassment and/or railroading/framing somebody.

[H2O Man]

116. Good questions.

First, in regard to Rubin: yes, we've been friends for over 35 years. And I know him in the contexts of boxing (which he no longer approves of, though he loves boxers); his legal case (I assisted with his defense as a volunteer, am friends with his attorney, and have read virtually every legal document -- including those allowed in court and those excluded -- and have spoken with police on the scene, people who were in the bar that night, and prosecutors and one judge); have been with him at public appearances; had fun playing a minor role when he last was the studeo guest on ESNP; and, these days, talk from time to time, late at night over the phone, about flower gardening.

Next, I understand what you are saying about how the police might look for a suspect (or suspects) among young black males on the campus. In fact, I'm familiar with the now-retired lead detective from the case. While we do not share the same political outlook, I have nothing but respect for him. I know him well enough to say that he's not a racist. And he was a great investigator, who worked closely with two of my relatives on solving some of the most brutal murders in recent history. But that is not to say that I agree with the infamous "blacklist."

One of the things that I believe helps people to both understand and appreciate the "other side's" point of view is the simple (in theory) exercise of making the best case you can for their position. What is interesting, I think, in this case is to consider a factor that hasn't really been discussed on this thread: what was the college administration's obligations to (a) the students, and (b) the police? There was no court order for such a list, nor was there a description that could be considered better than so general that it "fit" every young black male, no matter how short or tall, thin or heavy, etc. So, were they obligated to assist police in the manner they did? Or an obligation to protect students' rights? Because the students who were "interviewed" by the police did not report having a pleasant experience, or anything approaching it.

The crime was never solved.

[bobthedrummer]

119. wisdom kick...

[BlooInBloo]

120. :)))))