Should people who served their jail sentences be allowed to get on with their lives afterward?

[devilgrrl]

Because it seems that Michael Vick will never be able to live down what he did. I'm not defending him as his actions were reprehensible.

But don't you want to see him back in the NFL getting drilled by defensive players who love animals and want to make him suffer for it? I sure as heck do!

So what's the point of letting people out of jail if they can't restart their lives?

Just thought I'd ask.

[BuyingThyme]

1. It's up to the people with whom they want to work.

[rvablue]

2. I think you mean "allowed" not "aloud." n/t

[devilgrrl]

5. Got it!

typical typo. :blush:

[lapfog_1]

3. I think they should do so quietly, not aloud. - n/t

[n2doc]

4. I think that people mostly object to him being handed a high profile job

From what I understand, no team has shown an interest and very few need his particular football skillset. If he were an "average" felon, he could expect to get diddly squat in job offers. I think he should be allowed to seek employment wherever he likes, but I also hope no NFL team hires him.

[dysfunctional press]

6. i will say aloud that they should DEFINITELY be 'allowed' to resume their lives.

:evilgrin:

[bemildred]

7. I'm with you kid.

I don't care much about Mr Vick, but if we aren't going to kill him, we might as well let him live.

[nosmokes]

8. So child molesters should be allowed to be teachers.

After they've done their time, of course.

The NFL is certainly within it's rights to allow Vick back on the field, but if they do they'll never see another see another dime of mine.

[hlthe2b]

12. I'm with you, nosmokes... and "reprehensible," Devilgrrl?

I should say so....

Tell that to one who survived his cruelty...Hat Tip to ForkBoy who posted this photo in a previous thread to remind all what was involved in this little "misdeed," that some feel compelled to downplay. I can only hope this vision haunts his dreams every night for the rest of his life. Maybe then, he'll actually show some contrition...

[devilgrrl]

14. You don't have to show me that - but nice try....

So, what your saying is Michael Vick should never have the right to work again ever?

:popcorn:

[hlthe2b]

18. How, pray tell does not believing he has a right to play for the NFL

equate to "never having the right to work again ever?" Straw men argument, much?

He has a right to live his life, earn a living, go on living. You seem to extend that as a sense of entitlement. As someone asked earlier, do YOU think a pedophile who formerly worked as a elementary school teacher should be allowed to return to teaching young children after release from prison? He's served his time, after all. :sarcasm:

Oh, and you can keep the "nice try." I find those who are not deeply moved by the cruelty that Vick and others inflicted to be fairly hopeless in terms of being able to appreciate the horror. Particularly when the most important thing is having someone play sports for their enjoyment on tv.

Shallowness and callousness... not just a Sarah Palin attribute, it seems.

[devilgrrl]

42. So what your saying is Michael Vick has no remorse for his actions and is therefore redeemable?

okay.

[hlthe2b]

48. NO... but apparently you can not read and comprehend

since you claim I am saying "Vick has no remorse for his actions and is therefore (sic) redeemable?" :eyes:


NOTHING else matters except that you are entertained... apparently. Ironically, the same kind of mind set that led Vick to make money off the cruel but very lucrative, dog fighting for entertainment, to begin with.

[devilgrrl]

55. You are so grasping at straws... get off of your sanctimonious high horse.

:nuke:

[hlthe2b]

66. Ahh.. projection.....LOL

--complete with your own little self-destruction, I see. Nothing left for you to say, eh.

That's ok, hon. Maybe someone will crack a neck on your behalf on the football field. Isn't that what you were craving with Vick? Redemption, my ass. It is all about your own perceived "entitlement" to be entertained.

[devilgrrl]

70. Redemption, my ass. It is all about your own perceived "entitlement" to be entertained.

:rofl:

[hlthe2b]

77. Exactly ...

I must ask. Are you 12? Your spelling and grammar, not to mention minimal reasoning skills, makes me think you are very very young. If that is the case I apologize for not giving you more benefit of the doubt, and perhaps being a bit more patient with you... I hope that time brings a little maturity and education.

[BlooInBloo]

22. Contrary to what you people think, a gross picture is not an instant argument winner.

[hlthe2b]

23. No, the denial factor among those determined to be entertained

at all cost, is far too high. You are right, BinB

Unfortunately we can not teach compassion for those incapable of feeling.

[Forkboy]

56. (facepalm)

:rofl:

[Hassin Bin Sober]

80. LOL. White people ...... (insert one liner)

[devilgrrl]

16. Michael Vick molested children?

So, you don't want to see him creamed by football players who love the doggies?

I want to see him get late hit after late hit after late hit.

[hlthe2b]

19. Why not pay him to be a gladiator against the lions then, DG

Playing in the NFL is a privilege, not an entitlement. Players are given celebrity and with that comes at least a modicum of responsibility to present a reasonable role model to young child fans and to represent professional football to the world. Felonious dog fighting and cruelty just doesn't seem like the kind of role model I'd want. (but then, that's just me....:eyes:)

[devilgrrl]

44. Too bad he didn't abuse women - he'd be back on the field in no time.

:sarcasm:

[hlthe2b]

47. I certainly don't justify that EITHER...

so, what's your point? Apparently, some obsessive fans are so desperate for their entertainment fix that NFL owners know there is no price to be paid if they bring back abusive, violent felons.

[devilgrrl]

54. My point is that there's a possibily that he's remorseful but apparently that doesn't seem matter.

Whether he spends time in a halfway house flipping burgers or playing football.

Guess prisons aren't very good at rehabilitating inmates.

Do you get this strident when people leave racist organizations? Are they beyond redemption as well?

Oh no! What if he writes a book?

[hlthe2b]

65. And you don't seem to get that one has to earn trust & redemption

Any sacrifices he has made have been court ordered. That does not automatically equate to contrition, nor redemption.


Your concern that you might get to be entertained is amazing to me. What, pray tell, are you willing to do to aid the redemption of the countless millions of far less talented and "entitled" poor felons released... What do you do to ensure they get their jobs back? Oh,yeah, they don't amuse you, so they are clearly not "entitled" to your support and assistance.

[devilgrrl]

71. You are so tedious.....

:crazy:

[BlooInBloo]

21. That's why I asked if there should be a LAW forbidding Vick's return.

[hlthe2b]

24. NFL owners run the league... no one is proposing a "law"

If the owners turn a blind eye, a team signs him, then let market forces prevail. Should they sign him? MOrally, I would say no and I think a lot of American society continues to think similarly-- not all, certainly. Yet, I'm betting there will be financial repercussions for the team that signs him. But, we shall see.

[BlooInBloo]

27. But then the analogy to child molester restriction LAWS dies.

[hlthe2b]

31. Pedophile laws do not specifically prevent schools from hiring...

They restrict convicted pedophiles access to children.... Obviously it has the same endput, but is not legally equivalent at all to what you are suggesting--laws restricting who the NFL can/can not hire to play pro ball.

[BlooInBloo]

36. Those LAWS make it impossible for pedophiles to work in school. If you're not talking about LAWS...

that make it impossible for Vick to work in the NFL, then there's no analogy.

[hlthe2b]

39. I have repeatedly replied that no one is suggesting a law...

banning Vick from playing. However, the analogy is that not all who are released from jail SHOULD be able to return to their previous profession. Society (and our legislatures) have dictated that. So, whether it is from moral indignation impacting market forces (NFL), or in the case of a convicted pedophile, societally-passed laws, there are moral issues that can and have led to restrictions on employment.There is your analogy.

[BlooInBloo]

43. Then there's no analogy to child molestation, which was the topic of the branch...

I replied to here.

If you want to talk about something else, that's perfectly fine.

[hlthe2b]

46. Ok... Circular reasoning does not interest me...

Whatever, BinB

[TheKentuckian]

63. Child molesters shouldn't be allowed to be primary teachers because of the proxemity to kids

The NFL does not create any special association with dogs, especially not one that gives him special authority over canines. I'm sure he wouldn't be seriously looked at for Animal Control.

I despise what Vick did probably more than most but his job had nothing to do with it and in all cases that don't bring on a reasonable threat people that have served their time should be restored to their full rights.

[Luminous Animal]

64. Just as pedophiles should not be allowed around children...

Vick should be barred from owning animals. Yes, he committed a reprehensible crime and yes he did his time, if he is able to be employed by anyone, even the NFL, then that is a matter from between him and his employer.

[slackmaster]

72. If it isn't safe to allow them around children, they shouldn't be let out of custody

:hi:

[Ohio Joe]

9. Other - Resume their lives? Yes. Have restrictions? Also yes.

In the case of Michael Vick, he should never be allowed to own a pet of any kind again.

[Fire1]

29. I'll agree with that but he should be allowed to resume his

career.

[mitchtv]

86. +1

no animals or jobs that use animals otherwise, he's done his time.

[Ignis]

30. Agreed. (nt)

[blueamy66]

10. It depends on their crime and what they want to do with the

rest of their lives.

[ejpoeta]

11. i can't imagine any team hiring him. that would be a bad pr move for them, that's for sure.

should he be able to try to rebuild his life. sure. but I don't think he should be a role model or making big money.... he should have to start all over like anyone else does who goes to jail. most of them can't just go back to where they left off. wonder how many of his buddies involved in that dog fighting thing are in jail now. and how many will just start where they left off???

[Morning Dew]

13. I voted yes. I also think that some ex-cons need some restrictions.

Child molesters, for instance.

Here in Minnesota, they have been doing a commitment for some of them after they've served their prison time. In effect, they're never released.

That's wrong also.

[LanternWaste]

15. I think there's a relevant difference...

I think there's a relevant difference in what the law will allow an ex-con to do, and what main street will let an ex-con (all other things being equal, and of course it's not really equal in Vick's case).

Mt dad was an ex-con, and when he got out he immediately began selling new cars at a local Chevy lot. Made a pretty good living at it too. Won regional and state sales awards. Plaques, presents and bonuses from GM. But he still conned people-- nothing grandiose or great, but the cons were there til he died; but then again there wasn't that much rehab going on when he was in prison.

Maybe there are more effective and more numerous rehabilitation programs these days, and maybe the recidivism rate is better. Maybe Vick will become sincere and contrite and humble in his personal and social repentance. I personally doubt it though, and have been presented with no valid reason to believe otherwise...




However, as my opinion will have no direct or indirect bearing on any team picking him up and paying him 20-40x the average teacher's salary, it doesn't really matter what I believe in this one, specific instance.

[Fire1]

32. There is still no rehab to speak of. n/t

[izquierdista]

17. No

Judges, sentences, and the prison system have no effect on a person's personality. After their sentence is up they should be taken to the front gate and shot in the head.

[winyanstaz]

59. get some help dude

[izquierdista]

82. There's always one

:sarcasm: I hear there's a sale on clues down at the dollar store. You might wanna stock up.

[winyanstaz]

60. umm doesnt this post make you a wanna be killer?

[BlooInBloo]

20. Dave Zirin (best sports/society person currently alive) had a good article....

(This was through email - it won't be posted on his blog for a day or two.)

http://www.edgeofsports.com/


The Reality of Vick’s Return
By Dave Zirin

Michael Vick has been reinstated by the National Football League. But there's no guarantee that he will ever see the field.

"I urge you to take full advantage of the resources available to support you and to dedicate yourself to rebuilding your life and your career. If you do this, the NFL will support you," said NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell.

"Opportunities for redemption are rare--but that is exactly the opportunity that awaits Mr. Vick," chimed in Ed Sayres, president of the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.

Both men, in their way, were attempting to put the best possible spin on Vick's return to the NFL. After serving twenty-three months in federal prison at Leavenworth for running a dogfighting ring--an ironic sentence considering the fact that a warmonger like Dick Cheney still roams free--Vick can now sign with an NFL team after a suspension that can last as long as six games.

While in prison, Vick met with the president of the Humane Society of the United States. He also will be working with groups aimed at steering young people away from dogfighting. By all accounts, Vick is profoundly remorseful. And if you had to declare bankruptcy and spend two years in Leavenworth, you would also be feeling a share of regret.
Vick said in a recent statement, "As you can imagine, the last two years have given me time to re-evaluate my life, mature as an individual and fully understand the terrible mistakes I have made in the past and what type of life I must lead moving forward."

Goodell's decision comes in the wake of several players showing their support for Vick on Twitter and even challenging the very idea that he could be suspended. It started with Terrell Owens, who tweeted, "Who's w/me on the Vick situation? All n favor, lemme get a tweet 2 support Mike Vick! He did the time 4 the crime! Let the guy play!!"

Former pro bowler Steven Jackson added, "Playing is a priviledge...But who has not sin? Who can I say I haven't made a mistake? Don't forget this will follow him the rest of his life. If serving time 4 the crime is not enough then what is? Don't agree with 4 games, 23 months is enough."

Nonguaranteed contracts and Goodell's role as judge, jury and executioner of the league usually breed a kind of passivity, and this kind of public display of support by NFL players is rarer than a Detroit Lions playoff appearance.

But none of it means a lick unless one of the NFL's thirty-two teams takes a chance and signs Vick, which is hardly guaranteed. It's a preposterous scenario. The NFL continues to employ J.T. O'Sullivan, Trent Edwards and Dan Orlovsky--quarterbacks who couldn't throw a tantrum, let alone a touchdown. They also employ players who have been convicted for manslaughter, spousal abuse and everything short of molesting pandas.

Yet Michael Vick could remain radioactive for some time. It's hard to believe that NFL owners care deeply about animal rights. According to political donations, a typical NFL owner runs slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan. In fact, if they cared so deeply about animal rights, NFL owners would be publicly disavowing Sarah Palin.

What they really care about is public relations. It's a public relations refracted through the very lens of the casual, mainstream racism that defines the modern Republican Party. Just as the ever-shrinking right wing clings to notions of Obama's birth certificate being invalid and are shocked that Henry Louis Gates Jr. may have a problem with being arrested in his own home, the idea of seeing an "ex-con" like Vick as being worth a damn is an entirely foreign concept.

The very political forces--and they are bipartisan--that have made the United States the prison capital of the world are at work in the saga of Michael Vick. To insist that he deserves another chance is to admit that all ex-prisoners deserve to be seen as human beings and not simply statistics. For African-Americans, 9.2 percent of whom are behind bars, the urgency is even greater.

Whether you believe Michael Vick got a raw deal or think he deserved every last day of those two years in Leavenworth, people should collectively agree to pressure the owners of NFL teams to sign this man. Not just because he is good enough. Not just because he deserves any kind of a career comeback. But because if Michael Vick can't get a shot at redemption, if he is forever tainted, then where does that leave the millions still under the thumb of Prison USA? It's time for Michael Vick to get his second chance, for everyone who never even got a first.

[hlthe2b]

28. Vick has support for his second chance for exploitative reasons

Some want to make money off of him and some want to be entertained by him. If these same player and fan-advocates were actually doing something to give other former felons a chance at productive jobs and futures, I might be persuaded. But, that is NOT the case. These folks who will go to bat for Vick could not give a shit about the millions of others in jail or released to mop floors if they are lucky--live under underpasses, begging for food, if not.

[Fire1]

33. I agree with that, too. But I'm sure Vick realizes that he is one

of the fortunate and talented few and is also aware (as all of them are) that they're being exploited. After all, sports is a multi- billion dollar business and they know what they're getting into.

[hlthe2b]

34. It is mutually exploitative..... Great if you are Vick...

but for those poor untalented impoverished lugs whose futures are forever zilch--- not so much.

[Fire1]

84. Absolutely and I've said as much up thread and on other

threads concerning Vick, as well. That's my main conern. There is no rehabilitation to speak of for the avg. citizen who's been incarcerated and they end up back on the streets and back in prison. It's a vicious cycle b/c there's no way out. Noone will hire them even if they learned a trade or vocation. Going back to college is another exercise in futility if they can't get hired.

[BlooInBloo]

37. Thank you, Mr. Karl Marx.

[hlthe2b]

40. LOL

Feel better now? Better go watch some ESPN or maybe Faux, since you seem to be echoing some points most frequently espoused there.....

[Forkboy]

58. Thank you. Mr. Zeppo Marx.

[Forkboy]

57. +1

[Uzybone]

35. Great post

if a man with talent who by all accounts has learned his lesson and fully served out his time in prison shouldn't get a second chance, then we might as well kill all the other people in jail right now or commute them all to life sentences.

[KDFW]

25. Well, it depends.

:D

[wickerwoman]

26. Depends on the crime.

What Michael Vick did is indicative of severe sociopathology... the kind that less than two years in jail doesn't fix. He's served his debt to the state but that doesn't mean he has a right to walk straight back into his old life, everything forgiven and forgotten.

People who molest kids or rape women continue to pose a significant threat to society and need to be monitored for the rest of their lives. People who torture animals should not be held up as role-models to kids.

The NFL has the right to reinstate him. I have the right to protest his continued involvement in that organization but not buying NFL tickets.

If he wants to restart his life, he can do it bagging groceries and living in a halfway house like any other ex-con with a record for dogfighting who doesn't also have a superfluous talent for throwing a football.

[Iggo]

38. I'm an ex-con...

...and this thread is an eye-opener..

EDIT: I will say that I'm pleased with the poll results, though.

[alcibiades_mystery]

75. It's unbelievable, isn't it?

A disgusting display of the Punishment Fetish in our culture.

[Iggo]

79. Well, it's interesting.

It's like, what are we supposed to do after we get released? And almost invariably people respond with the intellectually lazy non-response "You should have thought of that before you (did whatever)".

:eyes:

[hlthe2b]

81. No... the poll is ridiculous because it conflates second chances

and redemption-- which, from what I can tell, most on this thread believe in-- with return to a lucrative celebrity life as a NFL player. Most on this thread distinguish between the two, believing the latter to be a privilege and with it responsibility to exhibit some level of personal ethics. That many do not believe release from jail automatically should signal a "right" for Vick to return to the NFL without some evidence of contrition beyond merely serving his court ordered sentence, does NOT equate to them feeling that all former felons have no right to a job and a future. Serving a sentence does not automatically result in a former attorney or doctor getting his/her license back. That too, is a privilege that hinges on a certain level of ethical behavior. Don't conflate the two arguments. You do an injustice to most DUers if you assume most stand in your way of a return to work and a future. Unfortunately, that is precisely what the OP did when she constructed this very flawed poll.

[donheld]

41. Black and white world anyone?

[Hugabear]

45. I have a hard time feeling sorry for a celebrity millionaire

People make it sound like if Michael Vick can't play in the NFL, then he won't be able to put food on his table.

Playing in the NFL is not a right. And it's not as if the NFL represents Vick's one and only chance to make money. What happens to any other football player once their career is over? The average NFL career is only a few years. And if Vick wants to play football, there would still be other venues for him to ply his trade. There are other football leagues out there. Or he could go into television, get a reality show, or do something else. Point is, with his celebrity factor and riches, he's in a lot better shape than many people getting out of prison.

[BlooInBloo]

49. It's not a matter of feeling sorry for Vick. It's a matter of whether or not one believes...

in doing the time for the crime.

Like, the law? Remember that?

[Hugabear]

50. As far as I know, there is no law prohibiting Vick from playing football again

And chances are that he will play in the NFL, I'm sure that some team will take him.

But that doesn't mean that he should automatically expect to play in the NFL again.

[BlooInBloo]

51. Ah. So you would then support blacklisting union members.

[Hugabear]

52. How do you get that from my post?

There are a very limited number of QB positions available in the NFL. Many teams already have established quarterbacks, and are therefore not going to take him. Let's face it, Vick isn't the young player that he once was. At 29, he's considered middle-aged by NFL standards. Other teams may not want to deal with the public relations hassle that is sure to come with Vick.

[Forkboy]

61. Nice framing, Hannity.

Anytime someone starts a sentence to someone else with, "So.." you know what follows is going to be stupid as fuck.

[pecwae]

74. And it was. nt

[proteus_lives]

53. Should he be legally denied chances?

No. But I don't have problem with boycotts or rude behavior. Doing his time doesn't make him less of a scumbag. I'll bet in the months to come he'll complain of fan behavior and rough treatment from other players. Well, fuck him. It's his choice to step back into the public spotlight.

[Forkboy]

62. Yes.

[lunatica]

67. He should not be allowed to own pets of any kind. Other than that

he can play his game. It's not like football is considered a gentleman's noble sport, because truth be told it's just a money maker.

[RedCloud]

68. PETA euthanizes out the wa-zoo. Who are they to tell Vick to get his head checked?

I don't support what Vick did either, but seeing a spokesperson for PETA on the Ed Show yesterday saying that Vick needs to get his head checked (not the exact words, but the inference)seems that this person didn't care about Vick's mental state until after he got released. Humans are after all, animals too.

Also I think the NFL commish is a little overboard with his sadism on Vick. Since the NFL tied Vick's suspension with the NFL to his prison term, he cannot go beyond with double jeopardy.

The commish as some of you may recall is the same man who when it came time to investigate the Patriots and their spy-gate film of the Rams secret plays for the Superbowl, had those tapes destroyed!!! without proving anything to the public. The Patriots made perfect plays on ALL Rams secret plays which enabled the Patriots to squeak out a victory/

So on Michael Vick, sit down commish and PETA, and stop being such hypocrites.

I want to support PETA but that euthanasia means they have higher hurdles to clear just like Vick does.

[DailyGrind51]

69. Sure, with exceptions...

Star athletes should not be given lucrative contracts, right after they do their time, because of fan or network pressure, especially for sadistic crimes.

[lunatica]

73. Vick will be dogged (pun intended) for the rest of his life

by animal lovers.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

76. Yes

Although it seems impossible to do in today's society- which seems bent on continuing to punish people for past misdeeds irrespective of their own redemption. Obviously, there are some circumstances in which discretion is called for (i.e. people whom have harmed children in the past shouldn't be allowed to work with them) but I don't think it's fair to make it impossible for people whom have committed crimes and completed their sentences to find housing, a job, and obtain basic necessities once they've paid their so-called "debt to society" which has IMHO become more of an "indefinite loan" that can never be fully "repaid"-often leading ex-cons to find ways to return to prison where they will get their needs met. IMHO we've become a very harsh, punitive, and unforgiving society even when it comes to non-violent (i.e. drug possession, drug use) offenses.
I especially don't believe that it is fair, just, nor even constitutional to be able to strip people whom have committed felonies but whom have served their sentences of their voting rights.

[Orsino]

78. Michael Vick hasn't yet *tried* to live down what he did.

He seems to feel that his sentence erases it. I am offended that a wanton torturer seems about to return to celebrity.

If I were aware of something resembling genuine remorse and atonement from Vick, I'm sure I'd feel differently.

[DefenseLawyer]

83. Yes, unless I really don't like them or their particular crime

In those cases I'll let you know.

[Posteritatis]

85. No restrictions whatsoever, or else keep them in prison. I recognize no in-between. (nt)