Group smears bodies with fake blood, lies on sidewalk outside Dean book signing...

[madfloridian]

in Seattle. They say they sent him a strong message. They lay down on the sidewalk so he would have to walk past them. They say they sent him a message about the people who die every year for poor health care.

I am not sure what message they sent, and not sure why they chose to send it to Dean instead of Democrats like the Blue Dogs. He faced the same protests and hecklings in Portland. Seems like the message is being sent to the wrong person.

From a group called the Socialist Alternative which joined with United for Single Payer and other groups to protest loudly outside Dean's book signing:

A spirited crowd, made up of Socialist Alternative members, United for Single Payer, and other single-payer activists chanted for an end to the insurance companies control over the healthcare debate and held signs and banners calling for single-payer healthcare. Some protesters smeared themselves with fake blood and laid down on the sidewalk in a theatrical die-in to represent the 22,000 people that die every year from inadequate health insurance coverage.

People coming to hear Dean speak were all given leaflets explaining the case for single-payer healthcare as they entered the forum. Chants for single-payer universal healthcare could be faintly heard inside the event even as Howard Dean started speaking. After less than 30 minutes, Dean ended his speech to allow for questions and answers.

They asked if they would have to form a new party to get single payer. Heck, most of us are wondering about even getting public option.

Protesters were inside and hoped to ask Dr. Dean the hard questions. They hoped to ask him why he claims now is not a good time to support single-payer even though 59% of people polled say they support it and his party has a filibuster proof majority. They hoped to ask him why he and his party continue to have closed-door meetings with the insurance companies and continues to exclude single-payer activists from the discussion. And they hoped to ask him if single-payer activists would have to start a new political party like in Canada to win true universal healthcare.

They seem unaware that Dean advocates strongly for inclusion of single payer at the table, and that it is Max Baucus who shuts them out.

If there is no health care reform, they need to blame the right people instead of smearing themselves with blood and blocking the way of one who is all for real reform.

With members and supporters of Socialist Alternative, as well as other groups joining the fight, we sent a clear message to Howard Dean, who was forced to walk past protesters covered in fake blood lying on the sidewalk - a somber reminder of the 22,000 Americans who die every year from lack of healthcare coverage.

This harassment is apparently occurring at his book signings around the country. Meanwhile, back at the Senate Mad Max has it easy. He is simply shutting the door on such activists. If they get too close he has them arrested.

[Startup]

1. Why are they attacking Dean?...

They give both Socialists and Alternatives a bad name.

What a bunch of Maroons.

[madfloridian]

4. I wonder myself, which is why I point it out.

I wonder who is behind it, who is funding it. Most people know Dean is strong for health care, so it really makes no sense.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Because the all-or-nothing crowd prefers nothing.

[Maru Kitteh]

13. And the idiocy of this protest group is representative of that contingent.

[pnwmom]

48. And because no one would support them if everyone was satisfied with the Dems.

So it's their job to try to peel off as many liberal Democrats as possible for their party-- they view Dean's fans as in that group.

[karynnj]

52. The tactic used though is the least likely to work.

If they want the Dean fans, attacking Dean in this manner will make it harder to win over any Dean fan, who could have been persuadable.

[Salviati]

9. Heck, they give Maroons a bad name

There's a long (long) line of people they should be giving crap to before Dean:

1) Blue dog "democrats"
2) Insurance company execs
3) "moderate" "blue-collar" republicans

to name but a few...

[pnwmom]

47. Because they are an opposition party, just as the Republicans are.

They are attacking Dean because they view him as a sell-out, since he belongs to the nefarious Democratic party.

[NashVegas]

54. Same Reason They Did In 2004

He's not Dennis, or some other brazen perceived idealist who will tell them everything they want to hear, knowing he doesn't stand a chance of getting the bill passed.

[redqueen]

70. deleted

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. Same reason there are a handful of anti-Obama nuts on DU.

Because they're fucking stupid.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

2. Dean was awesome on MSNBC tonight

they should give him his own show.

[madfloridian]

6. I thought he was great.

Not like a professional, but honest and sincere. I liked his guests. Even Keith in a casual shirt with no make up.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

19. Dean is so down to earth

There's no pretense in him, but he is wise, and shrewd, yet a gentleman.

Love him!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

29. I like him bettter when he's speaking for himself,

extemporaneously, but he'd get used to the teleprompter really fast, I have no doubt.

I thought he was terrific.

I wish he was my doctor, even, but I'd settle for him on his own show.

How about Dr. Dean and Lawrence O'Donnell on one show? I would FLIP if that happened. I wouldn't even mind if they had rightwingnut guests on, like Uncle Pat.

Imagine how nicely those two gentlemen would handle the headcases.........................................

[PassingFair]

87. I love O'Donnell, too!

Can we through in Rachael Maddow, Katerina VanDenHeuval,
David Sirota and Robert Reich?

Ecstasy!

[BlooInBloo]

3. hahaha! They must be a hired group - they rotate around the Canadian embassy (baby seals)...

And down at the market (throwing dead fish).

[leftstreet]

7. Actually, they weren't protesting Dean so much as advocating singlepayer

The single payer advocates wanted to ask him questions, but he wouldn't take any. They would have had the same gathering with ANY health care 'reform' speaker.

Dean was in town to sell copies of his new book and to build support for Obama's healthcare reform. In his speech he urged single payer supporters to back the more "reasonable" healthcare measures of the Democratic party that do not challenge the interests of the insurance companies.

[madfloridian]

11. That is not an acceptable reason. He is not against single payer.

He advocates for it as well as public option.

That makes no sense. I guess they are afraid Mad Max will have them arrested. They don't smear blood in front of him.

[leftstreet]

12. Well in his speech he does urge single payer advocates to get-over-it

I understand what you're saying, and it can't be easy for him to press for a healthcare reform bill that he doesn't really support.

In fact, I don't know why he's doing it.

[madfloridian]

14. Perhaps he means either quit targeting him...or that they won't get it.

No matter how much blood they spread on themselves.

I would be fed up by now if I were selling a book and got hassled everywhere. You should stop excusing such rude behavior.

[leftstreet]

17. It's not really 'rude' behavior, just standard protest behavior

But you're right, he's just trying to sell a book and probably doesn't want this grief.

The Democrats really need to get more people out there speaking about the healthcare bill.

[karynnj]

57. The Democrats do need more people out speaking about the healthcare bill

and I hope many do in the upcoming recess. By then, all the bills should be out of committee - though there still will not be a final bill. Although that makes it harder to talk specifics, at least the basiic shape of the paln is known.

One thing that will hurt the effort to win additional support, is if this "standard protest behavior" is used against them. That will make the story about the protesters, not the healthcare plan and not any alternative the protesters want.

By the way, this might be typical left wing protest now, but there are alternatives. Consider the protests of the civil rights movement and the most effective of the Vietnam era anti-war protests (the moratorium and the veterans protest that Kerry was part of). The thing they had in common was that they focused people on the issue rather than on outrageous behavior.

[madfloridian]

82. Now wait a minute.

Fair is fair. Yes, we need people protesting. But... Why do you agree it's ok they hassle Dean, but no one is supposed to protest Kerry?

[karynnj]

83. look at all my comments in this thread - in virtually all I said that

it was crazy to target Dean. Here, I was responding to a comment she posted to you disputing that this rude behavior was rude. I was trying to make the point that this was wrong towards anyone.

I did not repeat what I said elsewhere in the same thread. I think these people are completely counterproductive. Dean absolutely does not deserve this just because he is pushing to get the best practical plan. Dean has been the BEST voice out there, excepting possibly Obama. I had several posts defending the Dean's choice to defend the public option.

Here is one posted to the same person - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6175362&mesg_id=6176500

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

20. if we have single payer /public in the bill

it will pave the way for full blown single payer non insurance.

I think, anyway.

New Zealand and Australia have medicare for all, but some people, who can afford to,
carry private insurance.

But everyone is in.

But I like the idea of adopting the VA program or Medicare for all or
even better - Medicaid for all. Medicaid pays for everthing.

[karynnj]

55. Because he is less ideological than that

He likely does see the type of bill he has advocated for as the best feasible plan. As someone said, politics is the art of what's possible. It may be a far better use of his political capital and time to try to change what can be change to the best of his ability rather than fighting for something that clearly does not have anywhere near the support needed.

[ContinentalOp]

23. He is on record as opposing single payer!

I don’t think we should impose a single payer on everybody, but I do think we should give Americans the choice of having one if they like it. If it works for them, that’s what they’ll choose; if it doesn’t work for them, they’ll choose the private sector.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

25. He's in favor of giving folks a choice -

that statement doesn't make him "opposed to single payer."

He's opposed to imposing single payer on everybody - your quote.

Quite different from what your subject line says............................

[ContinentalOp]

28. The whole point of single payer is that everyone is covered and private insurance is not allowed...

to duplicate coverage. Single payer can't be optional. It defeats the entire purpose. And no, this is not the same as these ridiculous mandates to buy private insurance. Clinton's plan for example was the worst of both worlds: it would have kept private, for profit health insurance in place and mandated that everyone purchase it. It sounds like this may be what we're getting.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

31. I see -

thanks.

I thought there was a hybrid version that seemed viable.

Why would Dr. Dean say that, then? To frame it as optional?

See, this is where I get confused, but thank you for the very cogent explanation...........

:toast:

[ContinentalOp]

45. I don't know, I guess the hybrid version would be...

an optional public plan that was identical to Medicare which everyone could buy into. Unfortunately it seems like this might not be what we're getting? I don't know, I can't keep up with what's happening on that front.

Still, even though that system may be an improvement over our current system, you can't reasonably call it "single payer" since, after all, there would still be multiple payers. ;)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

46. I've tried to make sense of it,

and I have a small history of legislative drafting in Washington, but this one has been beyond me in every iteration. I thought it was horrid when the Patriot Act was rammed through, but this one is molting and mutating so rapidly, I fear that what Dr. Dean said about a new insurance plan will be the result. Not new health coverage for people, but a new way for the insurance companies to thrive.

Thank you again for all your help.....

[madfloridian]

33. No, he does not oppose it. I will find more quotes tomorrow.

Plenty of them.

[ContinentalOp]

40. "I don’t think we should impose a single payer on everybody"

Isn't that the very definition of single payer? How can you have optional single payer? That's like allowing people to opt out of their social security taxes.

There was a whole list of quotes on another thread where he said that single payer and the public option were one and the same. Do you agree that they're the same? If so, that may be the crux of the problem because there are plenty of people who think that the differences between single payer and the various public options under discussion are critical.

[leftstreet]

43. The Democrats are hoping to blur the definitions

Tactically I suppose it's smart. There's not much else they can do at this point. The reform bill suckz.

Hope to convince people that they're getting something great. Hope it takes voters longer than the next election cycle to figure out they've been screwed. Set the implementation point out in the vague future so you can keep telling 'em Change Is Coming!

The Democrats are expected to deliver healthcare 'reform,' but people want single payer.

It's a mess, and you can bet the Republicans are sharpening their knives.

[karynnj]

61. Can you give me a link to a hard source that says that

most people want single payer. There are many articles quoting numbers (like one in this OP), but is you look at all the polls - looking at all the questions asked and the responses, these claims are not really true. Sometimes it is done by the following sleight of hand. The question asked is Do you favor universal healthcare coverage, then there is the logic single payer = universal healthcare coverage, followed by using that question as the percent favoring single payer. (compare - Do you want colored walls, blue is a color - yet do you want colored walls is not equivalent to do you want blue walls.)

When you look at the various studies, the results show that nothing is as clear cut as advocates want to make it. Here is a link to the full results of the NYT/CBS poll that had the result that 72% of people are for the public option which the NYT to its credit put in its entirety online. http://documents.nytimes.com/latest-new-york-times-cbs-news-poll-on-health#p=1 Looking at all the questions is fascinating and shows the complex terrain this bill has to be built on. The universal question shows that Democrats over time have convinced people that healthcare is a more issue and that everyone should have access to healthcare. What is impressive to me is that far more people are satisfied with their own insurance than they are with the overall system. This means they do care that others do not have what they need. But, it also shows that the Republicans have succeeded to some extent in sosing doubt and fear of a government plan.

There is a huge amount of good news here for Democrats. People trust us on this issue far more than the Republicans and the believe that the government can do things better is raising. But, one thing that works against radical change is question 51. 47% are very satisfied with their own healthcare and another 30% are somewhat satisfied. These are people who likely might see they do have something to lose. (balance this by looking at question 50 -people do care (or at least say they care) that they are not satisfied overall because others lack insurance.)

Looking at all of this, the place where people like Dean, Obama, Kennedy, Dodd, Kerry etc are makes a lot of sense and could be what would make the greatest number of people happy. (My personal opinion, although I do see the role a public option plays in keeping down costs by keeping the insurance companies honest, is that the level of the subsidies to people above the medicaid threshold, getting rid of the pre-existing conditions as a factor, and letting everyone buy at a "group" rate are more significant that the structure in terms of changing the negatives on question 50. )

[slipslidingaway]

72. Link...

page 8

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/SunMo_poll_0209.pdf

http://www.healthcare-now.org/another-poll-shows-majority-support-for-single-payer/


There are other polls out there as well if you want to look for them, even Dean states that the majority of primary care physicians favor a single-payer system.


Also please see this thread as to why SP advocates are heckling Dean, he has been confusing the two plans for months. Now the organization and doctors who are the biggest threats to the insurance companies are the bad guys because they called Dean out on his misuse of the terms.

:shrug:

Recently he came out in favor of a longer period for data exclusivity for some biotech drugs. Harkin, Sanders and Brown all made statements opposing this longer period, Obama reportedly favored a 7 year period.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6164248&mesg_id=6164827


More on the data exclusivity amendment in the senate bill and one of the questions raised at the Portland book signing...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6164248&mesg_id=6165037


Biotech lobbyists cast their nets

http://www.pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/21/biotech-lobbyists-cast-their-nets/

http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2009/07/21/biotech_firms_lobby_hard_for_say_on_healthcare/

"...Dean failed to note in his editorial that he is an adviser to McKenna, Long & Aldridge, a global law firm that is advising the Biotechnology Industry Organization, the influential trade group. Nor did Trippi mention that his public relations firm handles social media projects in a partnership with the Boston public relations company Brodeur Partners, which also has BIO as a client.

Dean said his editorial was part of McKenna’s rapid-fire response to an unexpected, eleventh-hour Senate health committee proposal (which biotech firms ultimately fought off).

“It was a huge scramble, all hands on deck,” Dean said..."

[karynnj]

75. The CBS poll you link to is the NYT/CBS poll I linked to

The Times link has all the questions. It does not show a majority support single payer. There actually is no question which defines single payer and polls it. The closest is a question that has as one alternative scrapping the existing system - which gets far less than 50%. The Health-Now link is to the same poll - and they do not say single payer. The fact is that question asks whether the government AND private insurance vs private only. This has nothing to do with single payer, but is the definition of a plan with a public option. (Both Dean and Kerry have quoted this correctly - and I assume most other public option people have as well.)

I agree with you on not increasing the period for drugs remaining exclusive under patent law - but I have not looked at any data the drug companies have shown to justify it. (They may be claiming they need the period to recover research costs. I really don't know.) Drugs are a huge part of the cost for healthcare. This is something I really thing needs to be looked at seriously - it is important that drug companies have the incentive to do research on a variety of promising potential drugs - and that incentive is proportional to the amount of money they can make if they are successful with some of them. If the incentive is too low, they might develop fewer drugs or maximize their return by tinkering in a minor way with a patented drug so they can patent the "new" improved drug.

I did not know of Dean's role as an adviser to McKenna, but I don't think it fair to jump to the conclusion that it had an impact on his policy positions.

[slipslidingaway]

86. Both CBS/NY Times but different polls, one from Jan. and one from June...

you can scroll through some other polls that are listed here as well, although they do not always list the full details.

http://www.pollingreport.com/health.htm

The results below are from a July 2009 poll and it comes close to describing a single-payer, not for profit plan.

Many polls do not even ask the direct question and then we have people like Dean saying that the public option is like single-payer it can be very confusing to people who do not know the difference in coverage and costs between the two systems.


58% approved of a "Medicare For All" system and 59% approved of the hybrid system...down from 67% in April.


Kaiser Family Foundation Kaiser Health Tracking Poll. July 7-14, 2009. N=1,205 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

"Having a national health plan in which all Americans would get their insurance through an expanded, universal form of Medicare-for-all" N=609 (Form A)

7/7-14/09
58 38 3


Creating a government-administered public health insurance option similar to Medicare to compete with private health insurance plans"

7/7-14/09
59 36 5 .

4/2-8/09
67 29 4


This is what Dean has been saying and it confuses the issue.

"...What Obama's plan essentially does is give you the choice of whether you want to be in a single-payer or private insurance plan..."

"Public option is like single payer. It gives consumers the choice..."

[karynnj]

90. Sorry - I thought it was the same one -

and the first bold question is most certainly single payer.

[slipslidingaway]

91. No problem....I just had this long post prepared with more

info on the data exclusivity amendment and my computer failed.

Maybe later, I'll retrieve the links again, basically it is not about the patent length, but the period of time in which data can be released. The amendment passed in committee.

:(

[slipslidingaway]

66. Exactly!!!!! Make people believe that the "public option" is the

same as a single-payer system and exclude the SP advocates from discussions... they are the real threats to the For Profit companies.

I have no idea who this new group is that is mentioned in the OP....Socialist Alternative, but they are now being connected with other single-payer groups in a new thread.

:(

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. DU loves our disinfo

AMY GOODMAN: Governor Dean, we let people know that you were going to be on our show today, and we have been getting calls and questions, emails, tweets, everything from all over the country nonstop for the last twenty-four hours, and we hardly have time for any. But this is one from David Swanson. He asked, do support Representative Kucinich’s amendment to allow states to create single-payer healthcare, if they so choose?

HOWARD DEAN: Sure, absolutely. I’ve always believed that states ought to be able to try different things, and the states—our state was the first state, I think, to have universal healthcare for kids, 99 percent eligible. Massachusetts—actually, Hawaii technically was the first state to do universal healthcare in its entirety, because they were—for technical reasons, it had to do with the Employment Retirement Insurance Security Act . Massachusetts, most recently, has done some groundbreaking things. I absolutely believe that if the people of a state want to try something different, that they ought to be able to try, within the federal framework. And that’s certainly within the federal framework.

[ContinentalOp]

80. So he thinks single payer should be tried at the state level only? -nt-

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. He wants this bill to pass. He does not want to discard it for what's behind door #2. n/t

[karynnj]

51. That justifies the tactics they used?

They did not want "to ask questions of him", they wanted to use his appearance to get their message out, with absolutely no respect to him. Dean is now a private citizen. He is not required to let any group take over his events for their own purposes. Dean has every right to choose his own positions and choose what he wants to speak about. I'm sure there They, like Dean, can use their freedom of speech by setting up their own events.

Do they honestly think they win over even one person by throwing blood around?

[Bjorn Against]

58. They can exercise their free speech rights in any public space

They don't have to set up their own events to speak out, protesters need to be able to target the events of political figures and are under no obligation to show those public figures respect.

I don't think Dean is the best target, but free speech is very important and we should never suggest that protesters need to set up their own events and leave public figures alone. Public figures need to be confronted face to face sometimes, and while they could have found a much better target than Dean I am not going to suggest we limit free speech to a group's own events.

[karynnj]

63. You do not have the right to drown out the person who others came to see

In addition, throwing blood is not free speech. In addition, venues have the right to define codes of behavior. There has to be some balance here. Now, there are times when protesters will overstep those bounds and submit to arrest for doing so.

I see nothing wrong with protest that does not interfere with the rights of others. I would have no problem with people with signs, passing out literature, or asking questions. I've participated in rallies.

In addition, I was giving my impression of what protests seem to work - and I seriously doubt that activists throwing blood at a Dean event - or even a Baucus event will cause even one person to consider the advantages of single payer. I can see their passion, but I reject their behavior.

Not to mention, that like you I don't see Dean as a good target - nor most of the Democrats. This month, there will be an enormous effort from the right to destroy any healthcare reform. Does it make sense that the far left scream down or attack liberal or moderate Democrats, who are pushing a plan which will be the biggest increase in healthcare since the 1960s? It comes down to trusting that the legislators are committed to getting the best deal they can through their house. They are the ones who have spoken to their peers and Know what they will support. Wouldn't our effort be better in support of something rather than against something at this point.

Now, I know people will attack this as gullible, naive and being a Pollyanna. I am not saying that all are legislators are pure as the driven snow and completely honest - having come from the Indiana suburbs of Chicago to NJ, that would be brain dead. But, I do think the majority of them got into this to help make changes they think are right. They do have a motivation to try to do good that is bigger than campaign contributions and getting re-elected. They want to be able to point to legislation that they contributed to with a sense of accomplishment. I am old enough to know that cynicism sometimes is the more naive state as it judges everyone in advance as being corrupt - rather than rationally identifying those who are completely corrupt and those who over time have shown they are honest. Cynicism of the "purists" causes them to hobble the people on their own side who are working towards the same goals, but who see that progress occurs only when something is done and that the purist's solution may not be politically viable. (Ironically, cynicism often gives rise to the least genuine leaders, proclaiming their own purity, while condemning others who, though imperfect, are genuinely working for what they think best.)

[Bjorn Against]

64. They didn't throw blood they smeared themselves in fake blood, huge difference

You certainly do have the right to wear fake blood on yourself to make a political statement which is what they did. I don't see any evidence of violations of the law in the OP, if you can show me any evidence they threw blood at other people then that is wrong but I don't see anything wrong with them smearing themselves with red makeup. I don't think Dean is a great target for them to go after, but I don't see anything that is outside their first amendment rights happening here.

[karynnj]

71. I misread the op on the blood, but I still think:

If they allowed Dean to speak, then they did nothing wrong - though they were intentionally rude as was there purpose. That however is not against the law. If they heckled him, there are limits. It is not legal to persist to a point that the speaker can not reasonably have his freedom of speech. (I am not a lawyer and the article speaking of that seems no longer to be online.)

More importantly, their effort is counterproductive - you tell me how it leads to gaining support for single payer. Only if their goal is to make Dean less effective because they prefer nothing to anything except single payer, are they accomplishing what they want.

[Bjorn Against]

77. These tactics can be very effective if they are aimed at the right target

The problem in this particular case is that I don't think they chose the right target. Dean may not be perfect on health care, but there are many other people who are far worse than he is and it is important to choose your targets wisely.

If the target had been chosen better however then an action like this could have the potential to be very effective. Look up Michael Moore's video "Funeral at an HMO" on YouTube and you will see him use a pretty similar tactic to what these protesters used and he ended up winning a huge victory, but he also chose his target much more wisely than Socialist Alternative did.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. I smell GOPigs -

this smacks of the thugs who participated in the Recount fiasco.

Smearing Dr. Dean, no matter how senseless, is all that matters.........................

[madfloridian]

15. That picture...

LOL

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. Feel free to take it -

I get a heck of a lot of use out of it, alas..................

[rug]

53. No, it's a trotskyite group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Alternative_(US)

[Odin2005]

60. What did the Neo-Cons start out as, Oh yeah, Trotskyites.

There seems to be a connection with Trotskyites and with having regressive views deep down inside one's soul. :crazy:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. A ridicuous conflation.

A few ex-Trots later became neo-cons. The neo-cons and Trots only have 1 thing in common, they both are opposed Stalinist Communism.

It's kind of like saying that FDR and Churchill were communists because they were allied with Stalin.

[stevedeshazer]

10. Could be Republican dirty tricksters.

Wouldn't put anything past those guys.

That said, all kinds of fringe groups call Seattle and Portland home. It's just a northwest thing.

[MADem]

16. Who are these fucking nitwits? Why are they bothering Dean?

It's not like he holds government office.

Man, some people are dumb as dirt. What are they, a bunch of Activist Emily Latellas?




"Nevermind...."

[BlooInBloo]

21. Because he's been pushing the public option. He is no longer pure.

[Jennicut]

38. So now Dean needs to be thrown under the bus too?

Its never ceases to amaze me.

[MADem]

73. He's also without ability to influence. He's out in the wilderness.

I just don't "get" some people with their protests. They spend a whole lot of energy hollering at the wrong people. It makes them look stupid, unserious and attention-seeking. Like the tea-baggers, really. The flip side of the same dumb coin.

I am all for citizen protest, but I think it's important to target it and ensure it makes sense. I am reminded of those assholes who managed to completely overshadow Valerie Plame's important testimony. If they'd been paid in cash by Cheney himself, they couldn't have done a better job for him.

[TheKentuckian]

18. shakes head and moves along

<comes back and yells>

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HISSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

[RandomThoughts]

22. Dean was in Seattle?

When was that?

I think Dean is a great advocate for health care, and he makes a good case on many shows for the public option.

Single payer has also shown to work well in many countries, and except for the loss of 30% overhead given to private sector, it does not seem to have many downsides. Although transition is one downside of Single payer now. And insurance companies might not be able to spend as much money naming parks and stadiums after their corporations, but that does not seem to be about health care as much as control anyway.

For me, what Dean has said makes alot of sense.

[ContinentalOp]

24. "Dean advocates strongly for inclusion of single payer at the table"?

WTF, he's opposed to single payer! He said "I don’t think we should impose a single payer on everybody, but I do think we should give Americans the choice of having one if they like it." http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/03/04/dean-single-payer/

Single payer is not single payer if it's an "option" and he's clearly opposed to single payer if the thinks that private insurance should still be an option.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

26. I don't understand this -

Single payer is not single payer if it's an "option" .

Why is it not single payer if it's an option?

What is it?

Am I missing something here?

[ContinentalOp]

30. In a true single payer system, private insurance is not allowed to duplicate coverage...

and everyone is covered under the government insurance. You can't opt out of paying into social security for example. A true single payer system is the same.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

32. Thanks again -

I didn't realize you were the same poster as when I asked the question above. (That's what I get for not paying attention!)

There are a whole lot of physicians now who don't take Medicare or Medicaid, but in a single payer system, every physician would belong, opting out not being a choice, right?

[ContinentalOp]

34. I think so, yeah. I'm no expert on single payer, but I do think it's the best option.

And I have no connection to any of these activist groups, and no particular animosity toward Dean, but I think it's silly to pretend that he's is in favor of single payer. On another thread somebody posted a list of quotes where he has consistently conflated single payer and the "public option" saying that they're the same thing. That's either plain ignorance or he's actively trying to downplay the idea of single payer for some reason. But regardless of these people's silly and unhelpful tactics, I don't think it's out of line for single payer supporters to target Dean.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

39. Yeah, that makes sense -

they're NOT the same thing. Even I know that, but I'm surprised that Dr. Dean would say something like it.

Do you think he sees his plan to have single payer as an option, and to have public option included, would somehow equate, in his mind, to more people having choices?

If all physicians were obligated to belong to the single-payer plan, I can't see why public option would be necessary.....................

[madfloridian]

35. And how do we force the insurance companies out?

When they have so much power. Single payer groups want the insurance gone.

That is not going to work in this country right now.

[leftstreet]

37. Well, guillotines would probably be too messy

Good question though

[ContinentalOp]

41. Hey, I didn't say it would be easy or politically feasible.

But let's not pretend that single payer advocates don't have a legitimate gripe against Dean. It's a huge blow to single payer for a major figure like Dean to say that single payer and the "public option" are one and the same. Particularly when the public option is some poorly defined thing with constantly moving goalposts!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

42. That's just it -

we're daydreaming, I know that.

We're never going to force the insurance companies out. They own Congress, and, yeah, it's that simple.

Money talks, and whatever we the people want - or need - doesn't matter.

Iraq, Afghanistan, universal health coverage - no one cares what the people are saying.

We don't control the war chests that the insurance companies fill.

That's why we need campaign finance reform, but that's not gonna happen, either.

Somewhere along the line, we became the very monarchy that our forefathers came here to escape, and now we "elect" our sovereigns, a charade that makes us believe, however briefly, that we honestly have a voice in this "representative democracy," but it's a sham, and, in the harsh bright light of reality, we get to watch our lawmakers do whatever their campaign donors tell them to do.

There is nothing, right now, that we can do about it.

I've lost hope. About all of it...................................

[NashVegas]

56. We'll Never Get Single Payer Via Dictatorship

People need to grow up and accept that reality.

We will not get single payer with the stroke of a pen.

[madfloridian]

36. Then you figure how to get rid of insurance companies.

You would do the world a favor.

Instead of condemning Dean's stance, research and figure out how to kick out insurance companies when they own congress.

[ContinentalOp]

44. It's quite easy. You pass a single payer plan and private insurance is gone.

If congress is wholly owned and controlled by the insurance industry then surely Dean is as well right? Personally I don't know which politicians are truly bought and sold by these corporate interests and which just lack the courage to advocate radical solutions. I would give Dean and others the benefit of the doubt and say they're merely trying to be practical about the situation. That's why I supported Obama's health care plan during the election because I liked the fact that it included a public option but no mandates. It seemed like the most practical plan to get him elected. But now that the issue is under debate and there seems to be discussion (or maybe not, I can't keep up) about mandating the purchase of private insurance and eliminating any kind of public, medicare-for-all type of plan, I'm much more cynical about the whole thing.

[madfloridian]

84. I am a cynic also, but why not smear fake blood and hassle Blue Dogs?

Why make a target of one who comes so close to agreeing with you.

Or maybe that is not the goal of this group and others. Maybe it is to keep us from getting anything right now.

Stranger things have happened.

[ipaint]

49. Post 55 and post 47 in your previous thread on this same subject

explain exactly why people are protesting and criticizing dean.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6164248

I don't see why Dean should be immune from questions every other politician can be held accountable for. And starting another new thread because some of the info in your previous one on the same subject is inconvenient won't make the facts disappear or inaccessible so folks can make up their own minds up.

[slipslidingaway]

68. Thanks for posting the link n/t

[madfloridian]

81. Well, just go right ahead. You and your friends hound him.

It will accomplish so much. He is on your side.

[ipaint]

85. I don't trust any politician

and watching what is unfolding regarding reform in several areas such as torture/health care/rule of law. etc., I'm comfortable with that position.

Dean isn't on my side, if he was he would push for single payer not pretend obama's plan will be a legit choice between single payer and private ins and proceed to spread that lie on national tv. If he was on my side he wouldn't be using his reputation as an honest broker to push for longer patents on biosimilars on behalf of drug companies.
Besides that he's a centrist and the reason vermont now has a progressive party that represented folks who disagree with his centrist policies when he was governor.

I don't know those folks who are protesting at his book tours from a hole in wall.

For me all it takes is one time for a politician to use his reputation as a trusted expert and proceed to lie.

Here is a non politician and a physician who doesn't lie:

Obama's Doctor: President's Vision For Health Care Bound To Fail

The man Barack Obama consulted on medical matters for over two decades said on Tuesday that the president's vision for health care reform is bound for failure.

Dr. David Scheiner, a 70-year Chicago-based physician who treated Obama for more than 20 years, said he was disheartened by the health care legislation his former patient is championing, calling it piecemeal and ineffectual.

"I look at his program and I can't see how it's going to work," Scheiner told the Huffington Post. "He has no cost control. There would be no effective cost control in his program. The said it's going be incredibly expensive ... and the thing that I really am worried about is, if it is the failure that I think it would be, then health reform will be set back a long, long time."

Scheiner, who prefers a more progressive approach to reform, was hesitant about trying to divine the president's motives, although he said he believed that "in his heart of hearts" Obama "may well like a single-payer program."

"His pragmatism is what is overwhelming him." Scheiner added: "I think he's afraid that he can't get anything through if he doesn't go through this incredibly compromised program."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/29/obamas-doctor-presidents_n_246870.html


So is this doctor dissing dean, too? He's referring to the exact plan dean is- Obama's.

[slipslidingaway]

88. Did you make this a separate thread? If so would you post a link nt

[LiberalLovinLug]

101. Quick lets protest Dr. Scheiner!

:sarcasm:

[George II]

100. I don't agree with the protest, but agree with you about being able to question....

....their politicians. It happens all the time here - Obama gets more criticism here (that "here" is general AND specific! ;) ) than probably all republicans combined.

But raise one word against the issue-o-the-day and watch out!!! You'll be accused of being offensive, insulting, maybe even un-Democratic.

[JI7]

50. fuck them, but i guess whatever makes them feel better

it's much easier than trying to get the people who actually aren't supporting these things to change.

[Odin2005]

59. Here comes the shrill-sounding nuts from our side to join in with the wing-nuts.

Trotskyite morons.

[tritsofme]

62. Too funny!

You can't make stuff like this up.

[KittyWampus]

65. And the difference between this group and Code Pink is?

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. Idiots. n/t

[greiner3]

74. "not sure why they chose to send it to Dean;"

Sounds like Rahm has a wicked sense of humor.

Just saying.

[backscatter712]

76. GOP purity trolls.

How much do you want to bet these "single payer advocates" are yukking it up on Free Republic after they get home?

[madfloridian]

92. Frankly, I think some of that might be going on.

You never can tell.

[annabanana]

93. oppo operators. . . (sop for the RW wing nuts)

Follow them home.

[Capn Sunshine]

94. Constant Criticism of Dean because of his practical bent

Howard knows that incremental change works, and welcomes ANY legislation on health care. In Vermont, they started with the children. There was widespread criticism of Howard at the time for caving. He's pro public option, but maddeningly practical at times.
The Socialists know no one pays attention to them, but they DO pay attention to Howard Dean, hence the coat tail strategy.

[madfloridian]

95. Hi there, Capn...where the heck you been?

Have not seen you in ages.

:pals:

[The Wizard]

96. Are they being paid

by the RNC or insurance lobby to marginalize Dean and the movement for single payer advocates?
Dean really has no power to write legislation. All he can do is make the public aware of his views on the issues. It is the American people vs. the insurance lobby.

[DinahMoeHum]

97. Looks like the "Purity Pigs" are at it again. Fuck 'em.

This is a major reason why the Left does not have their shit together and win that often - it insists on treating allies such as Dr. Dean like adversaries.

[Piewhacket]

98. I'm sending Dean a thank you valentine. He's earning it! THANK YOU DR DEAN.

[chaska]

99. Now see this stuff happens. Remember this the next time you slam PETA....

It's just human nature to go too far sometimes, to get carried away. It's a forgivable sin most of the time, if you look at the big picture.

[madfloridian]

102. Not just Dean apparently. An organized effort by lobbyists, teabaggers?

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/31/recess-harassment-memo/