45 million uninsured Americans: misleading stat?

[durutti]

Hey, all. I haven't posted regularly on DU for years, but I'm interested to hear folks' thoughts on this topic.

A big reason that I decided, from an early age, that I was part of the Left and not the Right, is that we're relatively more honest. That's not to say that absolutely everything anyone on the Left says is 100% true and that absolutely everything anyone on the Right says is 100% false. But, in my experience, the Left does not suffer from the sort of full-time-manufacturing-of-alternate-realities tendency that the Right does.

But, I'm concerned about the use of one statistic that's been floated recently: 45 million uninsured Americans (down slightly from 45 million a few years ago). This is supposed to be based on the Census. And, until recently, I had taken it for granted.

But, upon closer examination, this is not what the Census says. What it says is that there are 45 million uninsured people in the U.S.. And while the vast majority of those are either native-born or naturalized citizens, around 20 percent of them are not.

Now, don't get me wrong. There are plenty of reasons why, even setting this stat aside, single-payer is the best option. But I would be disappointed to find that we were going with this figure merely because we misread it, or because "Americans" sounds better than "Americans and immigrants".

Is there some other possible justification for this statistic that I'm missing? For example, are the uninsured actually undercounted (and I mean according to actual research, and not just anecdotal evidence)?

[Laelth]

1. I don't have the evidence you're looking for.

But I'd bet that the number of uninsured people in the U.S. is much higher. A lot has changed since the last census.

:dem:

-Laelth

[TreasonousBastard]

4. That sort of data is updated regularly...

at any one time the census Bureau might be doing up to 15 different surveys, and at least one of them, the American Community Survey, specifically asks about health coverage.

on edit...

I see that the NIH/CDC survey mentioned in another post was another one of those 15 or so conducted by the Census Bureau. Census reguarly contracts out its surveying services to other agencies because, well, it's good at asking questions and has some of the best statisticians in gummint working for it.

[berni_mccoy]

2. The stat comes from the CDC after performing the National Health Interview Survey

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrelease/insur200712.pdf

[durutti]

5. But the same applies.

The survey covers both citizens and non-citizens.

[berni_mccoy]

10. It does not say that. And resident aliens should be counted. If you are referring to undocumented

aliens, then this study probably doesn't include them. What undocumented alien is going to talk to a Federal Surveyor? NONE.

[durutti]

18. Yes, it does.

Again, learn to read.

[berni_mccoy]

26. I searched the document. Says nothing of the sort. Prove your point with evidence.

[durutti]

29. Introduction, first paragraph

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) is releasing selected estimates of health insurance coverage for the civilian noninstitutionalized U.S. population based on data from the January – June 2007 National Health Interview Survey (NHIS), along with comparable estimates from the 1997–2006 NHIS.

Not "U.S. citizens". U.S. "population".

[TomClash]

3. Are you really saying what I think you're saying?

Are you saying that you don't want to count illegal aliens? Good enough to clean toilets for "real americans" but not good enough to get health care?

By the way, if any illegal immigrants are from anywhere in North, Central or South America, they are Americans. They may not be citizens of the United States of America, but they are Americans.

My apologies in advance if I misunderstood your point.

[Indydem]

6. Are you supporting extending health care to people who are here illegally?

[TomClash]

12. Yes, especially since the overwhelming majority are working and paying taxes nt

[Johonny]

22. more to the point

they get sick and go to our hospitals anyways. It's not like we aren't paying for them now.

[JHB]

28. I'm not particularly fond of the idea, but...

...viruses don't give a damn about citizenship.

The question isn't really "do you want to pay for health care for illegals?" but rather
"Until we solve the illegal immigration problem, do you want illegals who catch something to go on mowning your lawn, working in meatpacking plants whose products you eat, taking care of your kids, busing tables and washing dishes in restaurants, picking produce, working at construction sites, etc. etc., without treatment?"

[durutti]

7. No, that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is:

"American" is generally taken to mean "American citizen". And even if we do use "American" in the broader sense, it's still not true that 45 million Americans are uninsured -- if we're just going by the CDC stats. That's a question of the facts. Whether that matters is a separate, moral question.

[berni_mccoy]

11. That's stupid. My wife is a Permanent Resident who pays taxes. Even though she's not a Citizen

She counts. So stuff your xenophobia where the sun don't shine.

[PSPS]

14. You got it. This is the "Lou Dobbs" angle to scuttling reform.

Despite being 1% or less of the total population and despite being contributing to the economy that would fund such a plan, we mustn't have universal healthcare because THE ILLEGALS WILL DOOM US ALL !!11!!!1

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. A distinction should be made between resident aliens and illegal aliens.

We've agreed to host the the former.

The latter have healthcare systems in their home countries. If they lack insurance and develop illnesses beyond that which can be treated in the ER, they should be sent home to seek the assistance of their government.

Unemployed americans may not see "their contribution to the economy" quite the same way you do.

[durutti]

16. Learn to read.

Q: Where did I say that she (or any other immigrant) doesn't deserve health care?
A: I didn't. And for your information, I support open borders.

Again, my question is whether the facts are being misrepresented. There's a separate, moral question as to whether citizenship status should have any bearing on whether or not someone should have access to publicly-funded health care. And certainly, a strong argument should be made that it should not.

If you can't distinguish between the two, then frankly, you're not qualified to have an opinion on much of anything.

[berni_mccoy]

27. You are the one who needs to learn to read. The NHIS sampled US CIVILIAN HOUSEHOLDS

They would not sample illegal aliens in this and illegal aliens aren't part of the census data which is used for projections.

[durutti]

30. Incorrect and irrelevant.

"U.S. civilian households" includes both citizens and citizens, regardless of legal status. The latest Census report on the topic of health insurance coverage explicitly includes reference to immigrants: http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

It's true that this undercounts the number of undocumented immigrants, but that has no bearing on my point: "45 million Americans lack health insurance" does not seem to be a true statement.

[TomClash]

15. Maybe I'm dense but

You said there are 45 million uninsured people in the US, according to the 2000 Census. You say 20% are not naturalized or born citizens. That means the number of uninsured citizens is 36 million and there are 9 million uninsured legal/illegal aliens.

For purposes of the health care debate who cares if the number is 36 million or 45 million? The census estimates the population at 281 million. 36 million is still 13% of the public - more if you subtract immigrants.

I'm still not sure I get the significance of your point.

[durutti]

23. That's a valid point. BUT...

The question isn't, "Is health care coverage a serious problem?" Clearly, it is. The question is: "Are we being completely honest?" As is often said, if the truth is bad enough...

[endarkenment]

31. Yes that is the question. Are you being completely honest?

Because right now I think perhaps the answer is 'no, you are not being completely honest regarding your motives'.

"And while the vast majority of those are either native-born or naturalized citizens, around 20 percent of them are not."

You fail to distinguish between uninsured illegal immigrants and uninsured legal immigrants. Uninsured legal immigrants are just as entitled to be insured as native born americans. You fail to cite any links for your data or your analysis of that data. Is that because a brief google of your chosen topic reveals it to be a standard rightwing anti healthcare reform talking point, one that exploits nativism in the right's war against universal health care?

[durutti]

32. Search my posting history.

You'll find that I'm far from a nativist right-winger. And really, the reason I don't distinguish between citizens and non-citizens is the opposite of what you suspect: I think the U.S. should welcome all immigrants. I don't think there's anything morally wrong with crossing the border illegally. U.S. immigration restrictions are to be blamed.

I'm asking, really, because I'm fairly new to the health care debate. It's one that I just haven't been that interested in in the past. I'm trying to understand all sides of the issue.

[Orsino]

8. The birth country of the uninsured doesn't change the danger of the status quo.

"People who live in America" is close enough for me.

[Warpy]

9. I find it odd that the number of uninsured, published at the end

of the Clinton administration, didn't change for eight solid years of job losses by the Stupid administration. Something doesn't smell quite right, especially since we know good jobs lost to offshoring were often replaced by a patchwork of part time jobs with no benefits. Others lost their insurance because their companies were priced out and dropped it.

I would hazard a guess and say they've been using the 2000 figure for nine years now and unless they fix this mess, we will see a near doubling of that figure in the 2010 census.

[Uncle Joe]

19. I agree with your observation, Warpy.

I can only imagine the un-insured figure to be higher, of course this doesn't take in to account the tens of millions in the under-insured classification; people believing they have good coverage until they seriously need it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. It is a moving target and one stat is as good as another.

Really.

At any given point in time, there are 40-50 million uninsured. Of those, perhaps as many as 30 million have lacked insurance more than a year.

[L0oniX]

20. There have been over 3 million people unemployed this year...

how many will not now be making insurance premium payments and how many homeless people have health insurance?

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. I don't care how many are uninsured; it could be 100

It's wrong that people in this country have no health care. I do not care how many there are.

[BlooInBloo]

24. Hi, Mr. Dobbs!

[Hutzpa]

33. Good catch

thought it was going outta the ball park.....:rofl:

You are an excellent outfield player, no more third base for you...:evilgrin:

[durutti]

35. Hi, Mr. Demagogue. n/t

[Hutzpa]

36. Isn't that Lou Dobbs -- aka ???

:shrug:

[shraby]

25. As far as covering non-citizens, other countries treat

anyone who goes to the doctor..resident of that country or not. At least Italy does..my cousin had a problem when in Italy, went to the hospital and was treated for the illness, no charge. His wife was grateful and delighted cause he was pretty sick.

[durutti]

34. As well they should, IMO.

But the objection could be raised: is it as morally pressing if -- perhaps even uninsured -- many of these immigrants have access to care better than that they would've received in their home countries?