Face it DU. If Michael Vick wasn't rich or famous no one would be all up in arms

[xultar]

about him getting his job back.

Now, I work in animal rescue. I've seen situations where people have allowed hundreds of dogs to languish die without food and water. I've seen dogs that were eaten alive by fleas, feces caked, and scared shitless of love and affection. Just the other day someone posted on our rescue board that a family had locked their dog in the garage to die of dehydration and starvation because they didn't want it anymore.

Guess what.

They were allowed to go back to their jobs and so were all the others. Hell, the puppy mill we busted 2 years ago is up and running again. I see all these horrific animal stories posted right here on DU. You know what, the thread is active for a few hours and then it dies. No one is screaming that the people in those threads need to prove that they are rehabilitated. Why?

I don't see DUers or PETA trying to prevent those people who have microwaved cats alive or BBQ'd puppies alive from going back to their jobs.

So what fucking gives? Is it only because Michael Vick is famous or rich? There was s dog fighting ring busted the other day. Where's the outrage on that?

Now I do animal rescue, I put my fucking money where my mouth is...how many others screaming for Vicks head are doing the same? So If I can give the guy a second chance why can't you? I live that shit. Get off your asses and help out. I think if you really looked at the situation you could see how Michale Vick could be uesd to educate especially the Black community on the humane treatment of animals. I ain't gonna lie, the black community could really use some education where pets are concerned.

Michael Vick has done his time. He got more time than most get for his crime. He got the same sentence as Lindy England. Shit eople who have done horrible things to humans didn't even get that much time, and you're still screaming for more retribution? You want his job? His lively hood? Bemoaning the fact that he lost 100 million dollars as if that isn't enough. That's a hell of a lot, because when you are used to having it, and shit is gone, your world has collapsed. I think most people are forgetting to see that he's done more than most who commit animal abuse and dog fighting ever have.

So, what more do you want from the man? I mean seriously what fucking more do you want people? More jail time? Brain scans? Him to live in poverty? A scarlet letter? WHAT?

So instead screaming your heads off, look for solutions, or help out. I think that would be more positive than calling Vick names and demonizing him for a few days and then moving on having done nothing.

[paulsby]

1. excellent post

i think vick should play again.

he's a scumbag who did an evil thing.

and he was PUNISHED.

fair enough.

and the NFL is hardly a group of morally perfect athletes.

give me a break. it's the frigging nfl. to paraphrase sir charles barkley (a basketball player, but the point holds), vick is not anybody's role model.

he did a bad thing, he was punished.

let him play.

[xultar]

4. And you knkow what, If a team doesn't hire him...those are the breaks. Too bad for him.

But no one should actively seek to ruin him further just cuz...

[paulsby]

11. well people have every right to ostracize him

or advocate he not be hired.

that's free speech.

i;m just saying *i* think he should be hired.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[swishyfeet]

86. Self Delete

The subject of my reply is already gone.

(though I thought it was entirely reasonable)

[Missy Vixen]

He's been reinstated

I don't notice a large number of teams clamoring for his services.

I think the team that signs him (unless it's Oakland or Dallas, where the trash of the league end up,) will find the public relations fallout to be much more intense than they believed. I also believe they will discover that Mr. Vick is in no physical condition to play football.

If none of the above happens, I look for an enterprising DE or linebacker with a cherished and beloved pup of their own at home to make sure Mr. Vick's return to the NFL is a short one.

[jehovas_waitress]

188. He did his time. And his long term public punishment is just beginning.

Some team will pick him up probably as a special teams type guy. I don't see him getting ANY starter position now. He has talent, although he has always been a bigger threat out of the pocket than with his arm.

He did a horrible thing. Humane Society owns his ass for a long time to come.
Bottom line: Let him play.

[Kalyke]

22. I would hope that the current members of any team who would

hire such trash would walk off and refuse to play with him.

But, that might be looking for the best out of people who get paid zillions to toss a damn ball around.

[xultar]

28. NFL players beat their wives. They are still playin...seriously you may work

with a murderer and don't know it.
Want people to malign your character if you don't walk off the job?

[Critters2]

119. Everyone I work with has had criminal background checks run.

There's no way in hell my board would hire someone convicted of animal cruelty or dogfighting.

[paulsby]

45. why?

i'm as law an order a guy as you will find here. i mean i'm a frigging cop. i've put people away for LIFE in prison based on my investigations. i've used every level of force there is. i'm hardly sympathetic to criminals.

but if i was in the NFL, i'd play with vick. he SERVED his time. he deserves another chance imo.

the man has a talent,and he squandered it to engage in evil. and he was PUNISHED.

i believe in justice. but i also believe in redemption.

and like i said, i'm hardly a softy. i was glad to see tookie get executed. so, you know where i stand.

[Forkboy]

143. Barkley's comment about not being a role model was funny, but not accurate.

Whether these people choose to be role models, or even want to be role models, is irrelavent. They ARE role models. I would prefer it was scientists and doctors and the like, but our society's biggest role models are usually celebrities or athletes, whether they like it or not. They don't choose which child buys they posters or their jerseys, the kids do. Barkley saying he wasn't a role model was a copout.

[roguevalley]

243. I don't care if Michael Vick is a pauper. He is a sick bitch and what he did with

those dogs defies a normal mind. Cherry was one of his dogs. He just lay on the ground unable to even move because he was a bait dog. Michael Vick is like any other animal abuser, a sick twisted fuck. He broke the covenant that we have always had with dogs. Slamming them on the ground, stomping them ... he's a sick stupid twisted fucker no matter what his fame or money. Personally, let him play in the NFL. He will fit in with the dipshits and criminals that seem to populate football nowadays. I haven't watched in years.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Quick! Somebody post the picture of that torn-up dog! That ALWAYS wins the argument!

[Forkboy]

7. Quick! Somebody make a joke about tortured dogs! That ALWAYS wins the argument!

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. +1

:thumbsup:

[emilyg]

93. +2

[greguganus]

222. +3 n/t

[xultar]

8. Yeah post a picture, but I've seen it up close. I've got street cred on the issue.

So, I'm pulling rank.

[Kalyke]

26. Can't pull rank on me, sister.

I was on the local Humane Society board for years and have rescued several dogs, myself.

I can't believe someone in animal care would want a man to earn millions after treating animals the way he did.

Sure, he should work, but why can't he go to the Wal-mart?

Oh - and I've helped prosecute several non-famous, non-rich people who were abusing animals. Sorry to burst your bubble that no one cares if the perpetrator isn't rich and/or famous.

[xultar]

33. First, I wsn't talking about YOU specifically, Second, can he make 60,000. IS that o.k. with you?

If he started a trucking company and made a million dollars would that be o.k.Or should he not make any money?

When you get into telling people what they can or can't make you've crossed the line.

Millionaires play boys commit crimes, come out, and they still have their trust funds....

Rapist and murderers come out of jail and some make money...why just pick on Vick?

DMX are you keeping up with his case?

[PassingFair]

98. Because we all KNOW about HIM.

You don't think that we would react
the same way if we were talking about
our neighbors?

I wouldn't hire anybody who I KNOW
was involved in dog fighting.

This seems to be an uncomfortable
subject with my black friends, one
of whom explained to me that dog
fighting, and it's proceeds, created
an accepted off the books economy
in many poor communities and that
the roots ran VERY deep into the
fabrics of some of those communities.

Can't sweep it under the rug once
it was exposed in this manner, though...

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

48. If no one cares whether or not he's rich and/or famous...

...why is it that you think he should ONLY have a Wal-Mart type job? Why does it matter then that he might play in the NFL again? If someone wants to pay him millions, he should make millions. YOU don't have to pay him.

Don't pretend that his fame doesn't matter here. Even within your own post, it seems that you betray yourself.

[Alenne]

68. On the board

That made me laugh.

[NeedleCast]

164. I Just Don't Understand This Attitude of Continued Punishment

Explain to my why you think Vick should have to work at Wal-Mart for the rest of his life instead of returning to the NFL. Should that be something we burden all convicted felons with? If you've been convicted of a felony, it's okay to have a job again after your do your time but you shouldn't be allowed to be successful or have a job you'd enjoy? WTF is the deal with this fucked up desire to see convicts punished for life? What level of success should we cut prior felons off at Kalyke?

[Critters2]

130. Your street cred hasn't taught you empathy, though.

An "animal care worker" defending a dogfighter. Hmmm....color me skeptical.

[ShadesOfGrey]

211. Thank You!!! Color me skeptical too.

As someone who has been rescuing for over twenty years, my BS detecter went off full blast when I read the OP.

[Critters2]

212. Yep. The fact remains--anyone can make any claim on the internets.

Anonymity is a beautiful thing.

[Captain Hilts]

79. The long-term, institutionalized torture of animals is often a sign of serious emotional/mental

issues. It's a big warning flag.

Remember all those folks that mentioned that GWB tortured frogs? Well, yeah, that was sick and a bad sign. So's this.

Sorry, but it is.

Defend someone else.

[BlooInBloo]

84. Sure - it sometimes is. And sometimes a hick is just a hick.

[SammyWinstonJack]

97. .

:eyes:

[whathehell]

107. Umm..

What the hell does being a "hick" have to do with a taste for torturing animals?..

[BlooInBloo]

113. In some of the backwater parts of the country, dog fighting is relatively common...

I knew about it when I was in MS, for example. Shitty, but it doesn't necessarily mean the person is a psycho (though it could, of course).

[whathehell]

123. Vick doesn't strike me as a "hick"...If he ever WAS one, he had great opportunities

to "broaden" his perspective and he certainly didn't need the money.

[BlooInBloo]

132. (shrug) That says more about how little you know than anything out in reality.

[whathehell]

191. (shrug)...Is that the best you can do?......lame.

[MADem]

152. He came up in less-than-ideal conditions

Teen unmarried parents, mom worked at K Mart...it's not a "Silver Spoon" upbringing.

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Vick/Vick_bio.html

. . . .Like most port cities, Newport News fell on hard times in the 1970s and 80s. When Michael entered the world, the city was best known for producing drug dealers and gang members. Serious trouble, the kind that turned many young men into statistics, lurked around most corners in his neighborhood.

Michael's family situation was less than ideal. His mother, Brenda Vick, was 16 when she became pregnant with him. His father, Michael Boddie, was just a year older. Already the parents of a girl, Christina, they did not marry for another five years—at which point two more children, Marcus and Courtney, had arrived.

Boddie was away more often than he was home during his children's formative years. After spending nearly three years in the Army, he bounced from one job to another. Eventually he found steady work in the Newport News shipyards as a sandblaster and spray-painter. His days started early and ended after dark.

The responsibility of raising Michael and his siblings fell to Brenda. She became their savior. In fact, all the kids chose to use her last name. With help from her parents, Brenda ran a tight ship. The family lived in the Ridley Circle housing project on the city's east side. She kept the cramped three-bedroom apartment immaculate. Brenda worked at a KMart, spending every spare dollar she earned on the kids.. . . By junior high, however, his adolescent angst got the best of him, and he became a disciplinary problem for his teachers. . . .

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Vick/Vick_bio.html

[whathehell]

192. Many people came up in worse....and didn't turn out to be sadistic animal killers.

No pass.

[MADem]

196. No one is suggesting that he should be "excused" because of his

uncertain early life start. But it is true that young men who lack consistent male role models, like a dad, a grampa or an uncle who is in the family and not going anywhere, often have trouble as they come up in life.

That's not an "excuse"--it's a partial explanation.

The inability to even contemplate forgiveness is a rather conservative and unattractive trait, you know. It's nothing for you to be proud of, "holding the line" like that.

I am an animal lover, with many pets, and I am going to give this guy a second shot. I am going to expect good things from him, and hope that he not only turns his personal life around, but also finds a way to turn his grievous sins into a teachable moment for others. I hope he does well in life and uses his success to help animals. That's my hope. But my glass is half full.

[whathehell]

228. Please do your preaching in church..

"The inability to even contemplate forgiveness is a rather conservative and unattractive trait, you know"

Well, sorry you feel that way, but apparently I have a lot of company on this thread...Maybe God or the innocents he tortured can forgive him, but I cannot, at least not yet.


"It's nothing for you to be proud of, "holding the line" like that".

I'll be the one to decide what I should or should not be "proud of"

[MADem]

229. This is my church.

You may have a lot of company, but I don't think your, or their, viewpoint is terribly progressive.


George Bush had a lot of company during his election bids, that didn't make him right, either.

I continue to find your POV unattractive and intolerant. That's my opinion. You obviously don't agree, and that's your choice.

[hlthe2b]

230. Defending Animal Torture is not progressive, MADem

It is you who needs to review your progressive values, IMO. I had largely agreed with you, up to a point, and in fact was prepared to step away from these discussions. But your lashing out at those not yet ready to give Vick a pass--particularly BEFORE he has done anything, not court-ordered, to show he deserves it, is beyond the pale. Your attacks on those who feel this way is (as you say), "unattractive and intolerant." Perhaps a mirror is in order?

[MADem]

234. You cannot read. I am not doing that.

For you to blatantly and falsely (for shock value, is that it?) suggest I am "Defending Animal Torture" is pretty disgraceful of you.

Surely you have the ability to process the written word? No? Stumbling in that regard, are you?

I am saying give a man who has paid his debt to society, who has acknowledged his sins, a second chance. Give him the opportunity to prove himself and earn the trust of people again.

I HAVE a mirror. And the person looking back at me understands the concepts of forgiveness and mercy and second chances--like most true progressives do, and doesn't say "Condemn this fucker AGAIN, because ....ewwww!! He's BAD! And he should never, ever, ever be forgiven...EVER! Why??? Well just...because!"

You don't have to like his crime. Who in their right mind does? But how long must he pay for it? A judge gave him one of the harshest sentences in HISTORY. EVER. But for you, it's not enough? What's "enough" for you? His head on a plate?

He cannot undo what he did. He can, we hope, mend his ways and use his negative experience to teach positive lessons. I say give him a chance, is all. Like any genuine progressive would.

[hlthe2b]

235. You most certainly are accusing DUers of being nonprogressive

if they do not agree with YOU and... and you should be ashamed.

[MADem]

237. I am saying that anyone who refuses to give someone who has

paid their debt to society, and is not constrained by the legal system from specific activities as a consequence of their release, should be given that second chance. If they fuck up and disappoint, I am not saying ignore the behavior.

I can't imagine anyone suggesting that telling ex-cons to go fuck themselves, that they will never be forgiven, that their debt to society will never be paid, that they can never rejoin society as a full member when the legal system releases them, is a progressive value.

This isn't about opinion. This is about values.

Either we, as progressives, are forgiving, or we are intolerant. I am not AT ALL ashamed of saying that I hew to that value, even when it's difficult--he gets a second chance from me. It's up to him what he does with it.

[hlthe2b]

238. It is you who is not reading. The issue is not whether to forgive...

but when one forgives,which is an individual issue... I perceive that most here are willing to extend that to this man, but only after he has shown some repentance...through non-court ordered action that serves to attempt to address the harm and pain he has caused. While you have given accounts of his verbal apologies in court prior to his sentencing (which may or may not have been heart-felt and sincere), there has been no evidence of actions that were not court- ordered that provide evidence of repentance and contrition. Your accusing those who do not automatically--at this juncture and without evidence of contrition or reparations-- of not being progressive or tolerant is the issue. You conclude that they do not believe in forgiveness and redemption because they do not extend it on your schedule.

It is one thing to forgive and to extend a clean slate, a second chance. It is quite another to overlook actions that are so horrendous without sending a clear societal message that this is unacceptable. It is that message-- to young people and others-- that many of us are concerned may not yet have been adequately transmitted. True contrition and action by Vick can assure that that message does go through. We deserve that. Those poor tortured animals deserve that.

[MADem]

239. Many are not. Many say "No sale" and that they'll never forgive him.

Many want him to suffer and be deprived of employment or work in a low-wage, menial job as further punishment. That's just not progressive. They aren't being coy about their viewpoints, either.

The video of the apology I posted was outside the courtroom, after he pled guilty. He has also made other expressions of remorse.

I don't think ANYONE should "overlook" actions, or pretend he didn't do what he did. However, I suggest you read this entire thread. There's some pretty unforgiving shit up in here. How is this guy ever going to demonstrate "true contrition" if he doesn't have the means to provide for his family? You do know he's broke--he declared bankruptcy a year or so ago.

If he's given a job, he'll be able to earn a living, and he will be able to perhaps divert some of his dough to worthy causes--like animal shelters, for example.


My interest in this case has to do with living one's values, which isn't always easy when the cases are heinous like this one, and simple fairness (Vick has completed his sentence and stayed out of trouble in jail), as I have said elsewhere, I don't even LIKE football.

[hlthe2b]

240. I don't condone that either....

We'll leave it at that... I imagine we've agreed upon as much as we're likely to. Whatever happens, I hope this man does not disappoint either one of us and does something good with the rest of his life. I remain angry as hell at him... I look forward to him doing something to make those feelings diminish.

[whathehell]

245. Don't bother,hlthe2b...MAdem is digging in her heels...Anyone who

is not EXACTLY where she is on this issue is:

A. non-progressive. b. "unattractive". c. In need of remedial reading.


..Talk about "intolerant"..Good grief :spank:

[Name removed]

244. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

126. Hicks who fight dogs are called "psychopaths".

This "it's a part of their culture" bullshit is just that--bullshit.

[joeybee12]

155. Not everyone with a tough beginning brutalizes dogs...some people

will do anything to justify Vick's criminal behavior.

[Critters2]

158. Indeed. nt

[whathehell]

194. Yes...and those who then torture them to death are even MORE deserving

of the title...Pure scum:puke:

[CountAllVotes]

3. Vick is a no good bastard

they should have let him rot in jail IMO. I have zero sympathy for this poor excuse of the male species of human. :puke:

[xultar]

9. Yet, you don't say shit about the rapist and murders they let out. OK

WHAT-EVER

[MADem]

187. Or those charming folks at PETA

....who wasted NO TIME in dancing on the carcass of the murdered Doctor Tiller with an ad campaign designed to reach both the rabid anti-abortion factions and the pro-choice crowd.

I think their conduct was seriously reprehensible, but there's no sustained "poutrage" against those jerks here.

For those with short memories: http://www.kansas.com/news/tiller/story/836204.html

Here are the grave-dancing billboards:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

50. Then change the law.

While we're at it, what else should get a life sentence? Rape? Theft over $1,000? Spitting on the sidewalk?

Oh, and your "male species of human" line is just precious. As if women don't do anything horrible, right?

[CountAllVotes]

58. women do it too

and no they are no exempt.

However, Vick is a poor excuse of the male species of human. I won't change my thoughts on this. :puke:

[CountAllVotes]

62. I'm working on it, believe me

and what have you done to stop animal abuse?

[flvegan]

5. I would.

And I put more than my money where my mouth is, thanks.

[xultar]

12. Then we need to talk. I'm enterested in starting my own rescue and not

working with the group I'm with.
I'm gonna PM you to discuss. I love talking to my rescue brothers and sistas.
Would you ever do it?

[flvegan]

90. Would I ever do what?

Please feel free to PM me. I love talking rescue.

[greguganus]

223. Will you be rescuing animal torturers? n/t

[CountAllVotes]

56. as you know flvegan

so do I. I've stopped much animal abuse in my lifetime. If I have not contributed one other thing to the world in my life, I have done and will continue to do this work in what ways I can.

The puppy miller that I was dealing with is finally out of business thanks to me.

The person/business that was debarking dogs is now also out of business and no longer in practice thanks to me.

One down, a million to go.

One by one they shall go.

Vick is just the tip of the iceberg.

There are many many more.

However, Vick is an example that should hopefully let others committing such barbaric acts a very strong warning and reason to stop their shit!

I hope the issue of Vick never dies. He is a disgusting and evil bastard and no, we will not forget you bastard Vick.

:kick:

[flvegan]

103. Keep up the good work.

Never stop fighting.

[Wickerman]

6. Jesus but you hit the nail on the head

thank you.

[xchrom]

10. huh?

l:eyes:

[Pool Hall Ace]

13. I believe he should be allowed to play

But as I mentioned in another thread, I will exercise my right to cheer for the other team, and not purchase any items that he endorses. I will let the advertisers know why I am not making those purchases.

And I will not tolerate any finger-waggling from someone who tries to accuse me of racism or whatever.

[Malikshah]

14. I don't want him placed in a position that society lionizes.

Puppy mill owners are the dregs of society. Young children do not look up to them, do not aspire to be like them.

*That* is why Vick in the NFL is an affront to me.

[Orsino]

15. Other people's jobs aren't fan-supported, and don't get them rich or televised as a hero. n/t

[xultar]

41. Well if the fans turn away then all the better right? But you're pulling the plug before the fans

can vote.

[Critters2]

114. Employers get to "vote", too. If people don't want this sorry excuse

for a human working for them, whether in the NFL or at Wal-mart, they have that right. If he wanted to work, he should've thought about that before he began torturing animals. Actions have consequences. Most of us learn that as children. Vick didn't. So, he can learn it now.

[Orsino]

220. Vick pulled the plug by being convicted.

I'm only expressing my opinion of the depth of depravity indicated by wanton animal torture.

I want to see remorse and atonement, and no amount of support from the TV or message boards is going to distract me.

[napi21]

16. I live in Ga. & am a Falcons fan. I don't care if he signs

up wor an NFL team, as long as it's not the Falcons. I have a few core teams that I watch and support fervently, and as long as he's not playing with any of them, I don't have any involvement. I just won't watch him or his team.

[xultar]

20. You're a Falcon's fan. Shit, you need to have your head examined.

Seriously. I stopped being a falcons fan when I in grade school. All those time in the playoffs and never got past them.
I knew then the Falcons weren't my team.

More power to you though. You remind me of the rest of my family...Yellin and hollerin for the first thre quarters then cryin all of the 4th. To each his own i guess.

[MineralMan]

18. Hey! The Minnesnowta Visqueens need a new QB.

Now that Farve {sic} has pulled out after generating lots of publicity for himself, maybe the Visqueens will go for Vick. Oh, I do hope so...

[xultar]

24. Yeah sending a southerner up there would amount to torture.

[Captain Hilts]

82. Can you be more sexist in your insults?

[MineralMan]

121. Sexist?

Google Visqueen. It has nothing to do with sex at all. It's thin plastic sheeting that lays flat on a surface. Often used as an underlayment. Typical of the Vikings...laying down on the job.

So, yes, I could be a lot more sexist, since this wasn't sexist at all, thanks. Perhaps you should be more niggardly with your comments until you research them, eh?

[Captain Hilts]

137. You know that's not how it's meant to be read. nt

[MineralMan]

150. Since I authored the reply, I can tell you how I meant it to be

read. I have used visqueen dozens of times in my life. I've put it under concrete as a vapor and weed barrier. I've laid it under decks to stop the growth of weeds. I've stapled it under siding as a vapor barrier.

I made a play on the words Minnesota and Vikings. I wrote Minnesnowta for obvious reasons. I wrote Visqueens, thinking about that thin plastic sheeting that lays flat on the ground.

You read something else into it. You read something not intended. As far as I know, none of the Minnesota Vikings players are gay, and I wouldn't care if they were. Also as far as I know, they are a ragtag bunch of layabouts who are not capable of putting together a Superbowl team.

Do not mistake your lack of knowledge for my intentions. You will be wrong every time. Had I wished to make sexual slur against the Minnesota Vikings, I would have commented on testosterone and steroids in some way, not made a reference to a building product that lies flat on the ground.

Thank you for your attention.

[Kalyke]

19. Yes - he should be made to take a regular job - no multi-million $

contract for an evil person.

That would be justice.

And, while I'm at it - I can do more than one thing at at time. How about I demonize him AND continue to care for the three dogs I've rescued from lives of abuse and neglect?

:eyes:

[xultar]

23. What if he becaame a truck driver...then bought the company and made a million

would you want to take that?

You wouldn't ask that of anyone else but a person who once had money. You have a problem with rich people plain and simple.

[Kalyke]

27. No - I have a problem with an alleged animal-care worker

defending this asshole.

[xultar]

40. Right, we all think a like. I didn't get the memo. If it helps you please put me on ignore.

[MADem]

29. Xultar, you are SO right.

Now, let me put this right out front. I think the man is an asshole. I wouldn't want to hang out with him, and I wouldn't trust him in my home near my pets.

That said, what's the stated purpose of prison? Punishment and rehabilitation, or a holding tank until punishment can continue after the sentence is completed?

It's astounding to me that people can get all up in arms over someone they call a "freedom fighter" murdering someone, protesting that they've paid for their crime, yet they won't let this guy move forward. Tolerance around these parts is terribly selective. Faux progressivism and an "unforgiven" attitude spell hypocrisy, in my book.

He can NEVER "move on." This is stuck to him till the day he dies. On his tombstone will be written (figuratively, if not literally) "DOG MURDERER" just as surely as "CARROT WAXER" will end up on Monica Lewinsky's. Some things are not overcome, ever.

That said, if he gets his job back, and makes some money, maybe he can do the smart, acknowledging "I have sinned" routine by embracing his shame and turning it into a teachable moment. I think he should establish a series of "state of the art" No-Kill shelters in woefully underserved areas, with the finest staffs he can hire, and maybe name them for "Hero Dogs" like police, Search/Rescue or cadaver dogs that died in the line of duty, or service dogs that went "above and beyond," rather than attach HIS name to them. His publicist can leak that he's doing that "quietly," and that will help with his image problem.

I do sometimes wonder just what it is about Mister Vick, above and beyond his crime, that makes some people unable to forgive him, when they can give passes to "the right sort" of murderers? I don't get it. Or maybe I do and I don't want to acknowledge what I think I might be seeing.

[hlthe2b]

39. re:

"I do sometimes wonder just what it is about Mister Vick, above and beyond his crime, that makes some people unable to forgive him"... MADem, I believe it is because there has been no public evidence of contrition--not to say he may not have shown or acted so, privately. But, I am unaware of any public display of contrition--granted I don't follow cable news or sports closely... Apparently, though, many believe he has done nothing more than what the court ordered. Atonement, at least to me, implies some level of active contrition and steps taken of one's own volition to make things right. Has Vick done this? I think many would like to know, if so.


To many, myself included, playing in the NFL is a privilege, just as practicing law or medicine... All imply some level of professional ethics as an expectation. Certainly white collar felons do not automatically get to go back to law or medicine when released. The ball, now is in Vick's court to win back trust and any modicum of respect/forgiveness. We shall see.

[xultar]

44. no public evidence of contrition...what would that look like. He apologized...

want him to cut off a finger? Run through the streets beating himself on the back with a studded rope?

French kiss a dog? They haven't asked this of anyone else.

[hlthe2b]

51. As a self-described "animal welfare worker," I'd think you' d

know what that looked like. :eyes:



Do you know what the word contrition means, Xultar? Really? Have you known no one in your life who felt genuine remorse for their actions and tried to intervene with their ACTIONS to make things right? He spews out a muttered apology and you, the animal welfare worker feels all warm inside? Somehow, something about your account just doesn't make a lot of sense. Whatsoever. Perhaps the pets in your charge would benefit from a little less of your brand of "welfare intervention."

[Name removed]

69. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

96. What do you want him to do or say, then? Please be specific.

And please also review the link I provided to his apology, just so you don't ask of him something he's already delivered.

After you've read the account, have a look at the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzytivQsPGI

What would be sufficient "contrition" for you?

What will satisfy you?

[hlthe2b]

100. Actions (not court-ordered), not simply empty words

[MADem]

108. The man is bankrupt and he's just come out of jail. He'll need money

to enable him to participate in these vague "actions" you are demanding. Wouldn't it be nice if he could make a decent payday to support his family and engage in "actions?" Or by actions, do you mean crawling on his knees through the streets with a cross on his back?

I have to say, I am not convinced of your ability to discern between words that are "sincere" or words that are "empty."

Please explain to me how you KNOW his words are empty. If you do not KNOW, I want you to tell me why you THINK his words are empty.

If you are unable to quantify your charge of "empty" words, I can only conclude that you are displaying a bias. You may not realize it, but you are. Why you are displaying this bias is between you and your conscience.

I always thought progressives were forgiving. Apparently, I'm mistaken on that score. If you don't allow this man to work at the one thing he can do with any real skill, you might as well sentence him to death.

[hlthe2b]

112. Perhaps if you read my previous responses to you, MADem

I acknowledged your presenting his previous apologies. I have no idea whether they are sincere or not, but hope that they are. It worries me that anyone could inflict such horrendous pain and harm on any person or animal. It does concern me that he has had no psychological intervention to insure that this is not sociopathic in nature. Otherwise, we may have tragedy on the football field, frankly.

But to your question, reparative action is needed, in my view of contrition. He's been reinstated and will undoubtedly be playing for someone.

There are many things he could do--perhaps a series of PSAs to address those who believe this kind of behavior is acceptable--a teaching moment as our President would say. Apologies are easy. Actions to make things better for those you have harmed is the mark of contrition.

[BlooInBloo]

102. There's nothing he can do. Nothing will satisfy them but his blood and pain. They're American.

[Forkboy]

106. Yawn.

[Captain Hilts]

81. No, he said he "made a mistake." Some 'mistake'! Years of torturing animals. nt

[MADem]

88. He did apologize. He did it more than once, too.

Does he need to flagellate himself with a nail studded chain, as well?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/27/michael.vick/index.html

Shortly after he entered his guilty plea, Vick apologized "for all the things that I've done and that I've allowed to happen."

In addition to making apologies to Atlanta Falcons teammates, his coach and the National Football League, Vick also said he was sorry "to all the young kids out there for my immature acts."

He said that he was "disappointed in myself" and that "dogfighting is a terrible thing and I ... reject it."

"I take full responsibility for my actions," Vick said. "Not for one second will I sit right here and point the finger and try to blame anybody else for my actions or what I've done. . . .

If "playing in the NFL is a priviege" we need to get all these wife beaters, girlfriend belters, gun-toters, drug users, and crazy-drunken car driving muthas out of the league too, hadn't we?

No one is suggesting this guy is a candidate for Man of The Year. But then, many sports figures aren't.

We can't be selective about what "sins" are OK and what ones aren't. If you want G-Rated cartoons playing football, then perhaps it's time to hire the Disney characters to haul the pigskin down the field.

It's a sport of large, fierce and aggressive men in excessively tight pants, oversized shirts, helmets and padding, who run fast and hit hard. It's not the Bolshoi ballet. It's not the Debate Society. And it's certainly not Catholic Charities or the Salvation Army. It's a sport. He has the right to seek employment. If he's got any talent left, he'll find employment, but he'll probably have to work for cheap, at least in the near term.

[hlthe2b]

91. I'm struck by a certain irony...

Your defense of the sport and who plays it would be just as I'd imagine the ancient Romans would speak in terms of their gladiator v. lion spectacles. Just an observation and interesting comment on our society....

But, to the extent Vick's apology is genuinely sincere AND he acts upon it, good on him. :thumbsup:

[MADem]

125. My defense of the sport has everything to do with being an American.

Please read this message slowly and carefully. One word at a time, because it is important that I be both clear and precise. I'm going to give you a bit of "observation and comment" on your assumptions (which are entirely false--you've managed to misread me entirely, which makes me wonder if you also have misread Mister Vick).

--I am an American citizen. In America, if it's not against the law, people have the right to do it. If it is against the law, if things go well, the criminal goes to jail and pays their debt to society. After the debt is paid, the criminal is allowed to rejoin society. They are not continually excoriated and cast into the wilderness, and they only remain on probation for as long as it takes for the system to ascertain that they are no longer a threat to society. Some people, like child molesters, never escape scrutiny, but they are the exception that proves the general rule.

--People in America have the right to "enjoy" football. As for me, I fucking HATE football. Read that again, since you've "imagined" that I'm a cheerleader for football "gladiators," and you have imagined this based on my entirely factual description of the game. One more time--I fucking HATE football. I think it is a stupid sport. I can be relied upon to watch one football game a year--The Superbowl--and I talk through play and shut up during the commercials. However, football is not against the law. It is a legal sport, and people who like it are allowed, in America, to engage in it, watch it, love it, or hate it. I rather doubt you'd like it if society at large picked over your habits and hobbies and outlawed the ones that didn't appeal sufficiently. If you don't like football, do what I do--don't watch it.

--The only way Vick can act on his apology is if he can support his family. He has a skill. It's a fairly specific skill, one in which black football players are underemployed based on their total participation in the game, too. He is a football quarterback. If he can find work using that skill, more power to him. I won't watch him play (unless he's at the Superbowl), not because I think people do not deserve a second chance, but because I don't watch much, if any, football.

[hlthe2b]

165. I obviously struck a major nerve with you

with respect to football, which is nothing more than a side issue to this discussion and was not my intent... I get it, you don't like football.

And, yes, it is sad that a young, athletic, good looking man like Vick can do nothing except play football. Tragic, really.

[MADem]

183. You didn't strike a nerve, you simply made an entirely false assumption.

One that was germane to your argument.

You characterized me as a gladiator-cheerleader. I corrected your misapprehension, is all.

Also, no one is saying that there's no other work Vick "can" do. I don't know where you get that idea. If you're trying for sarcasm, it's not really working.

The point is, he has a relatively unique skill. Because of institutionalized racism, it's still a steeper hill for black quarterbacks to climb than it is for white ones. He is, from all accounts, a talented QB. If someone will hire him to do that work, why shouldn't he be "allowed" to take it? Why is he treated differently from so many others who have misbehaved, some in very serious ways, to include illegal weapons, the beating of family members and girlfriends, busting up clubs, and various forms of assault and battery, and have been permitted to be rehabilitated?

Vick's "conditional" reinstatement puts him on probation in more ways than one. If he finds work, he'll be on probation with the law, and on probation with the league, as well.

I think he deserves a second chance. Time will tell if he's sharp enough to know what to do with it.

[hlthe2b]

184. You are right on that-- time will tell.

I hope he does get his life together, but equally important does some good with respect to reversing tolerant attitudes towards animal cruelty and dog fighting. That is how he earns respect and yes, forgiveness.

[xultar]

42. +10

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

63. +20,000. Great post.

Particular the parts about faux progressives and selective tolerance. This place has become a fucking sanctuary of hypocrisy.

[redqueen]

115. Very well said.

So sick of the snap judgments, the selective forgiveness, the hypocrisy. It's all over the place.

[merh]

178. I like your idea and would only add.

He should hire ex-cons in every capacity imaginable, he should give others the second chance he is asking for.

[MADem]

189. A lot of ex-cons are ideal for that sort of work.

Particularly the ones who have been training/raising service dogs.

[merh]

190. That would be ideal wouldn't it.

For Vick to set up a shelter for training service dogs for those who cannot afford them and that ex-cons are paid to be the employees and trainers.

We should be Vick's PR consultants, we would help him help others and himself at the same time.

[Johonny]

30. I agree

[KansDem]

31. I think it's the tendency to put celebrities into "role model" status...

Whether they're athletes, singers or musicians, TV or movie stars, etc, there's a tendency for Americans to view them as "role models." Perhaps the outrage focused on Vick is confusion on the part of those who see him as a role model and not as an entertainer.

The anonymous animal abuser will remain anonymous after they've done their time, but celebrities will be back in the limelight acting out their roles. They remain in the spotlight because of their ability to make huge sums of money for their respective industries. If Vick, or anyone else in his situation, wasn't perceived to continue in that capacity, he'd disappear.

Now, I for one don't believe celebrities are role models. They're entertainers--that's all. And some make pretty piss-poor role models at that. A role model should be an individual who has contributed positively in some way to society, not merely one who has developed the ability to amuse us.

[Kalyke]

32. Nail on the head.

That's exactly the reason I don't want him back out on the gridiron.

Kids look up to this jerk and will excuse his immoral and illegal behavior.

Kids don't know Joe "Animal Abuser" Blow, the local clerk at the BlockBuster and certainly don't admire him.

[mrs_p]

34. as a vet tech since 1999, a current vet student, and one who studies

animal diseases, i think i qualify as helping out, and i agree with you, but only to a certain extent. he did the time the law allowed and should be able to return to a civilian life.

however, i think that what he did is indicative of a greater mental problem. could you ever - i mean ever - drown, hang, electrocute, or mutilate a dog? dog fighting is bad - but then killing them with your own two hands?? and not a shot to the head, shoving them underwater and holding them there as their little bodies writhe for oxygen. that is sick - ANYONE who does it is sick. i think playing for the NFL is a privilege. reinstate him all you want, and pay him all the millions you want. but he is certainly no role model and i do not wish him well.

[SammyWinstonJack]

46. The dog fighting was bad enough, but the torture was pure evil. I don't care

that he is rich and famous, which probably played a greater role in his minimum sentence instead of ending up in a mental institute, which is where anyone who isn't rich and famous would probably be.

[whathehell]

109. You got that right.

[mrs_p]

193. word

[snooper2]

35. Right On!

you rock :headbang:

Thanks for taking the time to post this

[merh]

36. Aren't you getting bored with the threads telling us how we should

fell and what we should have opinions about?

:shrug:

[xultar]

38. Just put me on ignore.

[merh]

49. Let's just play your game.

Face it, if Michael Vick wasn't rich and famous, he would still be doing time because he couldn't afford the expensive lawyer that defended him and got him such a light sentence.

And he never would be able to pay off the fine imposed.

And once he did his time, served that long jail sentence, he wouldn't have anything to come home to because while he was doing his time he would have lost his job, his apartment or house and most of his family and friends. He couldn't afford to have a telephone account to place calls and he would have to rely on collect calls to those few friends and family members that were willing to accept his calls. But most of his family and friends had to stop accepting the calls because at $3 a minute they add up and the telephone bills would get in the way of the grocery bills.

And, since as a prisoner only making 26 cents an hour for the work he was assigned to in jail, he really can't afford to get his life back in order when he was released because all they give him is a few bucks and bus fare home.

And then he couldn't find a job because he was a convicted felon, but should he find a job the hourly rate would be so low he would have trouble finding a new place to live.

And folks would always look at him as a criminal and they would never trust him. He'd never get a book deal or a made for tv movie because he was a nobody.

So what were you saying about rich and famous and how his fame has caused him such inequities?

[xultar]

65. Lindy Englund, the one torturing Iraqi troops some of whom died. 18 MONTHS.

Seriously, Michael Vick got a higher sentence for this crime than most do.

There was a dog fighting ring broken up not a few weeks ago...where is all the outrage?

DMX a rapper he left his dogs to die in an Arizona desert, He hasn't served a fucking DAY.

Look that up.

[merh]

94. Lindy Englund was sentenced to 3 years

I don't agree with Englund's sentence, I think it was too low, but if you are going to bring it into the discussion, get it right. It was a military court that heard the charges against her and her defense was she was following orders. Who ordered Vick to kill and maim. Oh, that's right, Vick did the ordering.

Have you tried to help Lindy Englund find a decent job? Where are your threads defending her and saying she needs a second chance?

Re: Vick's sentence, guess Vick shouldn't have lied to officials.

US District Court Judge Henry E. Hudson sentenced the suspended Falcons quarterback to 23 months in prison for his role in a dogfighting operation - a term at least five months longer than what Vick would have received had he been truthful.

Hudson found that Vick had lied to federal authorities. After pleading guilty in August, Vick continued to contend that others killed pit bulls that did not test well as fighting dogs. But in October, after being grilled by an FBI agent for five hours, Vick finally spilled the truth that he "hung" a dog.

And Vick's sentence is not as high as the sentences "not so famous" receive. Are you saying the fellow in Louisiana that got 5 years of hard labor plus fine should feel sorry for Vick? And Vick had a home where he could serve those last 2 months of his sentence. Most are not that lucky.

I don't care about the others you bring up, I'm just saying the good thing the discussions are happening and your efforts to shut them down back fire as they continue.

[xultar]

162. She served served 521 days... LOOK IT UP

[merh]

172. I hope typing the all caps help you feel good - that has to be the only

reason you use them, some personal satisfaction. They don't bolster your argument or answer questions put to you.

Where is your thread about helping out Lindy England and giving her that second chance?

Her sentence was 3 years, she served about half of it and was released on parole (not necessarily scott free). She was subjected to military justice, not civilian federal criminal law. Her defense was she was ordered to abuse, her IQ was that of a child, what else you want to know?

Vick ordered and paid for the abuse and torture of the dogs, he profited by it, he bet on it and he, by his own admission, hung at least one of the animals himself.

The guy in LA that is doing 5 years wished he got the breaks Vick got, even if 5 months was tacked onto Vick's sentence for lying to officials. (Most folks face a 5 year sentence for that crime alone.)

[xultar]

176. OK you convinced me, I'm wrong. He should never work in the NFL or make over 30k. HE hasn't paid

his debt to society and probably should be put back in jail and have his sentence increased.

I agree with you 100%

[merh]

180. I didn't say that - you need to stop distorting the words of others.

I said that your efforts to shut down the conversation is a bad idea. That the conversation needs to continue, whether it be about Vick or England or some poor Joe that just got his bus fare, a set of street clothes and the paper bag full of his only worldly possessions.

That the conversation should be something Vick encourages not just for his sake, but for the sake of the other ex-cons that don't have it as easy as he has it.

And that Vick should have realized that in order for the public to begin to forgive him for his much publicized crimes he must ask for that forgiveness, show remorse and do something to rehabilitate his image. He needs to put his money to good use and do something to help others not as well off as him but in the same boat but without the paddles he has.

Shutting down the discussion is a bad idea.

[xultar]

181. Hey. I like you. I'm gonna PM you my number. Let's chat about this

[merh]

182. thank you

I like you too and a chat would be great. Please check your pmail when you can.

[Critters2]

133. Exactly. If he weren't rich and famous, he wouldn't have Xultar defending him. nt

[xultar]

159. I'm not defending him. I'm saying he paid his debt. Let the man be

[Critters2]

163. And you wouldn't be doing that, if he weren't rich and famous.

He had every advantage, and he tortured animals as a hobby. I'm not concerned that he regain all that wealth and privilege again.

[xultar]

168. I have ex-cons in my family. I dated an ex con. Hate what they did...I still love them and want them

to get their lives back.

[Thothmes]

218. If it wasnt Vick, the Feds would not have even touched this case.

[merh]

224. really?

Who are these guys - is there big name, like Vicks, that I should recognize?

==================
Department of Justice Press Release
white spacer
For Immediate Release
July 8, 2009 United States Attorney's Office
Southern District of Illinois
Contact: [phone]

Dog Fighting Conspiracy Charged in Southern District of Illinois

FAIRVIEW HEIGHTS, IL—A. Courtney Cox, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Illinois, announced today that on July 7, 2009, William Berry, 34, of Lebanon, Ill.; Derrick Courtland, 42, of Cahokia, Ill.; and John Bacon, 36, Julius Jackson, 40, Joseph Addison, 40, all of East St. Louis, Ill., were charged in a criminal complaint with one count of conspiracy to commit unlawful activities of dog fighting.

more @ http://springfield.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/2009/si070809.htm

============================

Or this collection of raids/arrests?

==============================
CANINE CRUELTY
Five-State Dog Fighting Ring Busted
07/09/09

A year-long investigation by federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies has resulted in the arrests of approximately 30 people across five states in what officials are calling the largest dog fighting operation ever seen in the U.S.

In addition to the arrests, about 350 dogs—mostly pit bull terriers—were seized during early-morning raids yesterday in Missouri, Texas, Illinois, Iowa, and Oklahoma and will be cared for by local humane societies. Those arrested for their involvement face felony charges that carry maximum sentences of five years in prison and fines of up to $250,000.

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/july09/dogfighting_070909.html
===================================

The media focus is directly related to Vick's name, not the arrest and prosecution.

[Thothmes]

226. In the State of Virginia, in the last two year, since Vicks conviction

there have been four seperate arrests and indictments for dog fighting. In one case, more dogs were involved in the Vick case. None involed Federal authorities. All arrests and charges were carried out by state authorities.

[merh]

227. That could simply be because the state choose to finally start enforcing the law

It was embarassing that they ignored the Vick dog crime or perhaps, the feds had no jurisdiction because there was no interstate transport/travel involved and the feds had no jurisdiction.

DEA and state narcotics units find many of the dog rings as they often seem to be tied to narcotics.

Your exaggerated comment is just that, an exaggerated comment.

[Thothmes]

231. Not really, the Virginia state authorities have arrested and

prosecuted dog figting crimes for many years before Vick came along. Again little Fed interest in the issue. In this case the Vick operation was found during a search of the house, occupied by Vick's cousin. He had been busted in either Newport News or Hampton on drug charges. These city officials, in conjunction with the Surry county authorities were executing a search warrent, for drugs, at the Vick House. The police and sheriff officers found the dog operation while searching for drugs. The Surry county prosecuting attorney did not move with any great speed to prosecute the case. That is when Feds developed an interest in this particulary case.

[merh]

232. Just what I said happened, the state authorities were ignoring it because

of the Name involved. Also, there was proof that the crimes crossed state lines and the fights and trafficking of the dogs occurred in more than one state (interstate commerce).

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of the notion that ex-cons shouldn't have any rights.

Michael Vick, like millions of others convicted of felonies, paid the debt to society prescribed by law and implemented by the judicial system. That should be the end of the story and he should be able to resume his life as originally scheduled (albeit with a few changes in course).

If you think that debt wasn't enough - change the law, but don't harass people for doing what was asked of them in return for their wrong-doing. If what he did was truly that bad, keep him in prison. YOU don't have to give him a job. YOU don't have to pay to watch him play football. But if someone else does, that's between them, Michael Vick, and their own consciences. Leave it alone.

[xultar]

47. That is what I'm really trying to say. You say it so beautifully.

[merh]

52. If you think its bad for Michael Vick, just imagine the no names.

Maybe Vick's case will help the no name ex-cons.

Maybe something good will come of all the discussion.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

55. How do you figure?

If even Michael Vick can't get back to some semblence of normalcy after going to jail, how is the average former inmate going to do it? There's no hope for those guys, and then people wonder why the recidivism rate is so high in this country.

[merh]

60. I understand that - but Vick is a public figure that has more options

available to him than the average ex-con. Maybe the discussion about giving him a second chance will help folks understand that he is not the only one that deserves that second chance.

Maybe he can make something good of his situation, not just for himself but for others less fortunate.

The point is, at least the discussion is being had.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

67. I hope you're right, but this doesn't look like a "discussion"

This is more like a Tiananman Square, except the tanks aren't stopping. A few people are saying "Woah" and no one else gives a damn. And this is from a place that, by all accounts, SHOULD be open to giving someone a second chance at life. This thread is killing any hopes that, even on DU, someone might give the average ex-con fair shot.

[merh]

74. Had Vick tortured and killed children, would you think he so readily deserved

that second chance? That is what you are dealing with, people who value life of all creatures and that have not seen any remorse from Vick for what he did.

The practical side of me knows he needs to try to get his life back and the only hope for his future is to be allowed to return to the NFL so he can make a fortune that he can live on after his body tells him not to play the game any longer.

He has a better shot than most and he has a very bad PR person. His first step when he got out should have been taking steps to do something to try to show that he is remorseful for his conduct.

I'd hope that he does more with his life than football but I realize that football may be his only ticket to a future.

The point is, the discussion is being had. Maybe some will get the message, they just can't get the message about Vick. His crime was too despicable and he has shown no remorse.

Our prisons are our human landfills. The reason they are so overcrowded is because once we dump folks there they don't matter any more.

They don't matter to politicians because they don't have a vote, just imagine if they did what a block of votes that would be for anyone that was willing to try to bring about prison reform and successful rehabilitation projects.

[swishyfeet]

110. What if he killed deer with bow and arrow for sport/fun?

Lots of people do it, even take their kids along for the fun. Heck, I can watch it on my teevee if I want!

Yet I can't help thinking that it might be the most barbaric, vile, horrible way for any creature to die.

Of course, "people" here means "white people".

Cruelty to Deer = just dandy. Yeehaw!!
Cruelty to Dogs = OMFG!!! I'm Outraged!!

I'd just like to see a little balance.

[merh]

124. Oh, so you don't know any black hunters?

And there are no laws against hunting if you have a license and do it in season.

Vick violated the laws, he had his own animal version of abu g, where they trained and tortured and killed the dogs and for sport, watched and bet on the dogs being killed and maimed.

There needs to be balance, there is no doubt. But your argument isn't going to help us get there.

[swishyfeet]

141. Well, no.

When I checked here: http://www.averyoutdoors.com/hunting_photos_deer.html I see dozens and dozens of white people with their kills.

Yet when I google dog fighting arrests, it seems to just be black men.

Have you heard of big game farms where they raise animals just to be tortured and killed for sport?

You failed to answer my question about bow hunting.

[merh]

151. Yes, I did answer your question.

Bow hunting is not the same as dog fighting and bow hunting is legal. That said, I'm not a fan of hunting, if you want to debate the issues you need to go find Palin.

I'd bet ya the white guy doing 5 years for what Vick got 23 months doesn't see the distinction you are trying to make about race. I know plenty of black

[greguganus]

225. How many deer get put in a ring to tear each other apart

and then the losing deer be drowned or electrocuted if he survives the ring? It's stupid to compare hunting, which most of the time involves a clean kill, and is used to help cut down on the population of deer to keep them from starving to death, which can be considered torture. Hunting is also legal when done within the boundaries of the law and with a license. Part of hunting license fees go to wildlife conservation and preservation.
Where is dog fighting legal in the US? Did Vick eat any of the dogs he killed? Did Vick torture to death these dogs to keep them from starving? Was Vick contributing to wildlife conservation/preservation?
I have 3 rescue dogs, one of which was abused so bad it took him over a year to not cower when anyone raised their arm up for any reason.
Fuck Vick. The only job I would like to see him doing is running with the bulls in Spain. They could pay him millions to do that and I'd even buy a ticket. Go Bulls!

[Raineyb]

167. Maybe he should have just shot at wolves from helicopters.

Then there wouldn't be so much outcry.

I really don't see the need to get up in arms about this. There are much more important things going on than whether or not the NFL rehires Vicks.

[merh]

174. Oh, I agree.

I disagree with trying to tell others what their opinions should be or that they have no right to have an opinion.

Should the Vick discussion make one person think twice about discriminating against an ex-con because they did time, then the discussion is good.

[redqueen]

117. Apparently, for some crimes, forgiveness no longer applies.

Those who commit the crimes that push people's emotional buttons do not deserve a second chance, and will never be forgiven.

I don't get it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

122. And apparently, torturing people is no longer a problem so long as they're bad.

Take a look at some of the disgusting posts in this thread. They're salivating over the opportunity to torture Vick. You'd think this was FR.

[redqueen]

127. There are no bad people, only bad actions.

I see the point people are making re: psychiatric issues... but do we normally advocate shunning and torturing the mentally ill?

Actually, I'm kind of ashamed of asking that question, because I know the answer... and it's shameful.

It's far too easy to demonize poeple... and IMO it solves absolutely nothing, if anything it distracts from finding solutions or ways to deal with these issues.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

135. I don't agree that there are no bad people, but I otherwise agree with you.

Our mental health care infrastructure is fucking pitiful. My only hope is that if (and it's a big if) health care reform passes with a public option that it will provide better coverage for mental illness.

Take the Virginia Tech massacre... everyone talked about the guns and no one talked about this kid needing a lot of friggin help that might have stopped the tragedy from ever happening in the first place. It's asinine to me.

[redqueen]

140. Hmmm...

sometimes I'm tempted to call people evil. I consider Dick Cheney evil... because he shows no remorse for his actions, which have hurt so many.

But when I think about it, I can't help believing that even he could one day decide to stop being such an evil person... and at that point, he wouldn't still be evil.

I too hope that mental health coverage is improved in the health reform bills working their way through congress. There are so many examples showing us how badly we need improvement in that regard... what more evidence do we need?

[tjwash]

54. Or the fact that we have more people in our prisons than the combined countries of China and India.

nt

[tjwash]

53. Waste of time; the DU lynch mob has already tied his ass up and tossed the rope over the tree branch

You wouldn't want them to stop now that they have put forth all that time and effort into this would you?

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. You really went there?

:eyes:

[SammyWinstonJack]

57. Personally I wish one of those dogs he was TORTURING would have ripped his

hands off! Playing for the NFL wouldn't have been an option.

[xultar]

59. I'd rather the nuts. But that's just me. That would have been sweet justice.

[Forkboy]

64. Meanwhile, as you scold us for being up in arms over Vick...

It would be nice if you, and others, would try getting up in arms over this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6175660&mesg_id=6175660

I know, it's not as flashy as the Vick case, and the Lewis Black shtick doesn't pack the same punch when talking about gang rape.

[xultar]

71. I've already inquired about adopting that little girl in AZ. I don't need to post

it do I??

[Forkboy]

77. That's nice of you,

but it doesn't change the fact that you seem outraged over people's outrage, and chose a sanctimonious, attention seeking way to get that across. You "pulled rank", to use your words. If you're going to scold people for what they choose to be outraged over then it can go your way to. I don't see you in that thread I started. I don't see you on a ton of threads about issues like that. Should we assume you don't care and aren't outraged?

Where's the outrage on that?

People don't have to post it, do they?

[xultar]

157. I pick an issue a day. There are somethings I don't discuss because of personal

reasons especially rape because I was a molested when I was a little girl. I've also tried to commit suicide as a child...I won't discuss that either.

But I pick my subjects. You don't like me, my subjects, what I say or how I say it...please. Put me on ignore. It doesn't hurt my feelings
I've been throug plenty more and survived.

[Forkboy]

195. I don't use ignore, and have no reason to start now.

I actually have no problems with you or your subjects. I suspect you'd be a hilarious person to hang out with. I just think you just made a lot of sanctimonious judgments in your OP this time around. If you don't like people taking issues with the subjects you choose to discuss then it is you who needs to employ the ignore feature, not the people responding to your OPs.

I've also been in the hospital for suicide. Still see a counselor weekly for massive bouts of depression and I've been thinking a lot about suicide recently. I'm sorry what happened to you happened to you, but that's all the more reason why you shouldn't complain about others not being outraged at something to your satisfaction. Maybe they are outraged and just don't like to discuss things for personal reasons as well. I have a friend who can't talk about spousal abuse because it hits too close to home. You don't know what people feel or don't feel, and you have no right to make these assumptions of people when you yourself admit you don't always speak out about something because of how it affects you personally.

[MrScorpio]

66. I figure that his crime had nothing to do with the game

Plus he was tried and convicted for his crime and he paid his debt.

There's no legit reason that he can't resume his career.

Distaste really isn't a good one.

[Myrina]

70. Yes, my money is where my mouth is.

I volunteer with 2 rescues and foster Beagles and Cattle Dogs, helping to 're socialize' them and give them love, space, time and healing after the hell many of them have been through.

The difference with Vick is that he's a PUBLIC FIGURE. He's got endorsements, ad contracts (or, had). Young boys wear "his" jersey, wanting to be "like him". And the money they paid for those jerseys and other Vick-signed bullshit is what helped fund that horrible enterprise of his. Its blood money. You don't think for a minute that some of those boys who've heard about him and the dog fighting have 'checked one out' and been enticed because of how 'tough' being around something like that makes them feel?

The old saying is "with much power comes much responsibility". Vick apparently never heard that.

The purposeful cruelty and sadism involved qualifies him to be a borderline sociopath, and I personally don't want sociopaths on my local sports shows, commercials, being made out to be 'superstars' or benefitting from the tax money that I pay to fund my team's stadium.

[SammyWinstonJack]

73. I guess the obvious borderline sociopath is lost on some here in their defense of Vick.

:shrug:

[whathehell]

198. Yes, it would seem so....Who would have thought DU had such empathy for animal torturers?

...Oh wait, maybe only for those who are celebrity sports stars.:shrug:

[xultar]

149. I applaud you cuz Beagles are tough. We have one lady who takes all the

Beagles that come in to our group. She gets the first pick of any donated items.

I see your point...but what if Vick can be used to help educate through his job. DMX a famous rapper left is dogs to die in the AZ desert a year ago.
HE hasn't served a day in jail for that crime.

DMX cannot be used as a role model...but Vick can. Take it for what it is worth, I'm not defending the guy, I'm saying that he served his time. HE paid his debt to society by the law's requirements.

You don't like that...change the law

[Leftist Agitator]

72. "So, what more do you want from the man?"

His execution would be a good start.

[CountAllVotes]

75. naw

that is too good for him. An easy out.

He deserves to live in one of those little ugly boxes that he kept the tortured dogs locked up in. Even that would be too good for him.

As I've said before, he is an evil bastard.

Has anyone but me ever noticed his snake like tongue sliding from side to side constantly? My god what an evil fucker he is. EVIL.

[SammyWinstonJack]

78. +1

:thumbsup:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

83. I'm starting to think, from your rhetoric, that you and Vick may share more in common than you think

[CountAllVotes]

89. you see similarities

god knows what a sick fuck you are.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

120. I'm the sick fuck, but you're talking about torturing a human being.

Congrats on your new personal low in life.

[Myrina]

92. My solution: if he DOES get back into the NFL ..

... he needs to be 'trained' and 'housed' the way his dogs were.
Then he needs to be FORCED to perform.
And if (when) he loses, after the game, he gets taken to the 50 yard line, strung up, hosed off, shot a couple times, electrocuted a little bit, and then his carcass can be gnawed on by some hungry dogs.

Let the bastard see what its like.

[CountAllVotes]

101. hmmm

sounds AOK to me! :thumbsup: :D

[SammyWinstonJack]

104. Works for me!

:thumbsup:

[Thothmes]

219. So much for Amendment VIII to the United States Constitution.

[Captain Hilts]

76. Are you not aware the public forum that being famous gives people? His half-assed 'apology'?

[VMI Dem]

80. Some PETA idiot was on MSNBC the other day calling for brain scans for Vick.

[SammyWinstonJack]

85. For what he did to those dogs, I think some sort of psychiatric analysis is in order.

He is sick and evil. Or maybe just evil. :shrug:

[Critters2]

128. They're not mutually exclusive. He's sick and evil. nt

[LanternWaste]

87. If he wasn't rich or famous, he'd still be doing time...

If he wasn't rich or famous, he'd still be doing time.

Lot of people tend to forget the leaving prison is merely the first step towards a complete legal and social repentance.

[joeybee12]

156. +1

And tell me how easy it would be for a non-celebrity to be allowed back to his old job.

[Thothmes]

221. Possibly, but most probably in a State instituion

instead of a Federal prison. If he had been your average ordinary downhome redneck dog fighter, his involvement would have never risen to the point that the Federal authorities would have been involved. But because it was Vick, the feds decided it was a case worth their time and effort.

[fascisthunter]

95. your telling us what to do and think is getting really old

the spin is gross as well.

[Stevenmarc]

99. Sorry but fame cuts both ways and the privilege a person enjoys at the top is matched

by an inability to pull the privilege card after a fall.

So "If Michael Vick wasn't rich or famous no one would be all up in arms" the answer is a well deserved yes, he climbed up on the pedestal and now he'll have to deal with the long fall down.

I'm sure Michael Vick didn't complain whenever fame got him the best table in a restaurant while people with reservations had to wait or stores were opened up after hours so he could shop or given a watch on the off chance he'll be photographed wearing it or flown somewhere on a sponsors private jet at the drop of a hat. Fame is a rarefied world filled with inequity why should anyone expect any less inequity after a fall from grace.

Do I personally want Vick to be unemployed, no but he'll have to find another path like a whole lot of other felons have to do and if his felony greases the fame pedestal then so be it.

[Critters2]

111. +1 nt

[redqueen]

105. Spot on.

Excellent points throughout. Thanks for posting this.

Just wanted to add: the man has paid for his crime... as xultar said, more than most do.

I believe in rehabilitation, and that people deserve a second chance.

[Butch350]

116. It's easier to draw attention to the problem using big names.

[OwnedByFerrets]

118. It IS a good post....

and I feel that I can speak on this subject because I too rescue animals. We have a puppy mill bichon who was scared shitless when we got her and is still, two years later, very frightened of anything new. We have 8 rescued ferrets, and its only that small a number because we cannot take in anymore. We had to turn one down on Sat, and it broke our hearts.
Yes, he has paid for his crime. Does he deserve to get his job back? Yes, he has the right to try-out for it again.
I truly hope he feels remorse for his deeds.

[xultar]

179. If Vick killed one of my dogs, I'd kill him. But when I got out of jail wouldn't

I deserve to get a job doing what I do now making a decent salary?

I'm sure the rescue groups would take me back. Hell I killed a guy for killing my dog.

That's why I know I couldn't be a vet or a vet tech, I'd be beating up people for mistreating their dogs all effing day.

[whathehell]

199. It's just a thought but, if you killed a PERSON you actually might not have to worry about that.

Even if you didn't do life, though..I'm sure you'd serve more time than Vick's measly sentence.

[xultar]

202. True. But when I got out, I should be allowed to get a job doing what I do now

Which I could do as a contractor through an agency.

Probably would be able to work from home and not even have to travel.

[whathehell]

207. You say "when I got out"...Who says you WOULD get out?..It seems

to me that you take quite a bit for granted.

IF you got out who says you "should" be allowed to get the same job you're doing now?....You might be surprised to know that you're average ex-con rarely gets to "pick and choose" what job he/she gets -- especially if their crime was homicide.

[Critters2]

216. Maybe Xultar is a pro football player! nt

[Critters2]

214. ...

:eyes:

[Thothmes]

247. Actually, if you killed a human being, in any other circumstance

besides self defense, I would hope that you never got out of prison.

[sledgehammer]

129. Agreed. I think many people want to see a Vick crying session on Oprah.

After that they will start changing their views if Oprah says it's ok to do so. This is America, and Queen Oprah dictates the mindset of millions.

While I do agree with your post, the only thing I would say is that Vick needs to show some remorse. Yes, I wouldn't want fake remorse just for the sake of it. But some admission of how he sees things differently, how he can help discourage others from doing similar stuff, what he thinks the root cause of the problem is, etc.

[redqueen]

134. He did say this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6177413&mesg_id=6178027

[Critters2]

138. He apologized in court, on the day he entered his plea. Oh, yeah.

That was probably heartfelt.

[redqueen]

145. He might have been sincere, he might not have been...

I don't know, so in the absence of further info, I err on the side of forgiveness.

[Critters2]

146. It's only for victims to forgive. And since he tortured and killed his victims,

he may have to live with an unforgiving public.

[redqueen]

147. "It's only for victims to forgive?"

Is that what it says in the bible about forgiveness?

[Critters2]

148. Whenever Jesus is discussing forgiveness, he's talking to the victims

of the offense. So, yeah, it pretty much does.

[redqueen]

154. Hm...

I'm not sure that proves the case.

What about these?

“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.”

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

Do these not imply that we should be forgiving of others who do wrong, even if we're not the victim of their actions?

[Critters2]

161. "Bless those who curse YOU, go good to those who hate YOU."

Again, those dogs have no opportunity to forgive, or do good to Vick, what with they're being dead and all. If the surviving dogs forgive him, that's their decision. BUt scripture doesn't promise him a place in a starting lineup. Sorry.

[redqueen]

166. So sinners whose victims can't forgive don't deserve forgiveness...

at least not until they die. Interesting concept of forgiveness. It's not mine.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I still like this:

“And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

[Critters2]

169. The faith has always taught that repentance is part of the

process of gaining forgiveness. Vick needs to be contrite if he really wants people to forgive him...and not just contrite in court.

I always err on the side of empathy for victims. In this case, the victims are those tortured dogs.

[redqueen]

171. What does wanting him not to get his job back do for the dogs? (nt)

[sledgehammer]

142. True. But that seems like the way pols apologize after having an affair.

I certainly don't think he needs to beg for forgiveness in public. But an interview of some sorts will go a long way. And not some ESPN shill - this issue goes beyond sports. I joke about the Oprah thing, but that might be a good solution. How about Katie Couric, Diane Sawyer, Barbara Walters? I think the ladies on The View might be his toughest crowd.

Just answer some questions. Tell us why you did it, why you regret it (if you do), what can stop it from happening again, why you never felt it was wrong in the first place, what you are doing to feel better about yourself, etc.

He doesn't have to do such an interview, but it will go a long way in helping him.

I really want to see him play again because I just love true running QBs (and he did it with flair). But I know his appearances are going to be dogged with crowd protests, boycotts, etc. That will lessen if he has an honest interview.

[redqueen]

144. I don't know... I didn't see any excuses in there...

nothing about job pressures, or temptation... don't most philanderers manage to work at least a few into their apologies?

Anyway, he might have been sincere, he might not have been. I don't know, so I chose to err on the side of forgiveness.

[sledgehammer]

175. True, he had no excuses.

But he was looking for leniency at the time. This was before the sentencing. He even got his child to write a letter asking the judge for leniency, along with several personalities (e.g. Mayor of Atlanta).

I hope something more comes out of him. I think the problem is more widespread than we think, and he can be a useful insight into the problem.

Many people have turned their lives around after being given an opportunity, and have often addressed their past issues honestly and publicly. I hope the same happens for Vick.

[Butch350]

131. I've got nothing against him working again....

but stop whinning, when it all boils down - even though he did his time.

It was MV decision to put himself in the postion to lose his 100 million dollars. Why does someone
with a lucrative profession making millions of dollars, who is a roll model to kids, engage in something that
he knew was against the law for a meager few thousand dollars?

The man has issues and took it out on animals - you prefer he did it people.

But it's all ok, because he did his time.

Let me go out and shoot three or four motherfuckers. It'll be alright, because I'll due my time, and it will be ok again.

Sure, definately, he should be allowed to work again because he served his time, and he can throw 10 touch down passes
in one game. I will never be a fan of his again.

[Butch350]

136. Apparently you have a thing for Vin and Vick

ask you five wee ones how they feel about vick. Maybe if he slamed one your 5 against a wall you'd be singing a different song.

[xultar]

177. If Vick killed one of my dogs, I'd kill him. But when I got out of jail, I should be able to get my

job back or a job doing what I do now.

[Politicalboi]

139. Fine let him play

I just hope his career ends tragically for him. Same goes for the average joe who is cruel to animals. I just hope karma comes to him.

[joeybee12]

153. I volunteer, I rescue cats, I donate my time...and yes, I think Vick is

getting off light...he didn't just microwave one dog...we're talking about dozens, we're talking about illegal gambling, we're talking about a cover-up...the problem is not people think a celebrity should be treated more harshly, we're seeing celebrity worship where because he's a celebrity he gets a better deal.

[chaska]

160. Pretty hard to read, Xult. Thank you for what you do. But, I hate nothing more than animal abuse.

Part of it is that we Dems have a problem with wealthy people, especially if they do wrong. But personally, I think animal abuse SHOULD be punished more harshly than human abuse (adult human abuse anyway). Animals are helpless, relative to humans. The burden of responsibility is therefore that much higher.

Hey, if you made it this far, have yourself a good day.

[xultar]

170. I can't believe people think I think what Vick did is OK because I want him to get his

life back.

If some one hurt one of my dogs I surely would go to jail for murder. But when I got out why couldn't I resume my life and get a job doing what I do now?

[NeedleCast]

173. I'm not surprised judging from a few threads on this already

Many have suggested that Vick should be tortured or killed for what he did...not to mention those who continue to argue that Vick should be released but that he shouldn't be able to have a "good" job anymore. Boggles the mind.

[MADem]

185. People on DU, many of them, have real problems with reading.

Some of them just do not read the posts, they read the subject line, and then go off on a tangent.

Others just read the first and last paragraphs, or pick on a phrase in a post, and go off on that.

Some are so overwhelmed by bias that they just can't see any other POV beyond the one they've already formed. And some have biases that they don't even realize, or are ashamed to publicly acknowledge.

It doesn't matter what you say, or how you say it. You can state your case till you are blue in the face. Those minds are closed. They've decided "Once bad, always bad." To them Michael Vick, even if he came up with the cure for cancer, solved global warming, and personally built a rocket ship and flew to Mars, would forever and always be "unforgiven."

[xultar]

205. That's sad. Expected but sad. I would love it if everyone could be given a

second chance...at least once.

Maybe I'm a hippy that way.

I kicked a girl out of my house for leaving one of my pups on the porch @ night. A bird could have taken him off. She was a friend of a friend. She'd been in jail just got out and as a favor I let her stay @ my place free of charge until she got her shit together.

I told her, I'm fine until you hurt one of my dogs then you'll have to go.

I came home late from a business trip and onyx was on the porch. Her sister moved her out the next day.

But when she got out of jail the second time, I did offer for her to come and stay and her sister rightfully turned the offer down.

I gave her a second chance...

[hlthe2b]

213. Let us know when he does ANYthing even remotely like this

I'll be the first to celebrate him. However, your praise for him is rather premature and really ought to be saved until he does SOMETHING--ANYTHING-- worthwhile upon his reentry into the community. I hope he does.

[Critters2]

215. Indeed. He's run his life so badly thus far, that I don't expect a major

turnaround at this point.

[MADem]

217. I am not "praising" him. See--you're not reading.

All I am saying is "Let us not condemn him." That is both a distinction and a difference.

He has done his time, paid his debt to society, let's see how he does. It's on him now, but piling on isn't progressive. That's what I think I have been very clear in saying.

[ShamelessHussy]

186. true dat & and I expect him to be out on the field again, soon

And some folks find it hard to comprehend how we used to throw folks to the lions... shoot, when a palin finally makes it to the top, look out below, cause that kinda stuff will be back in vouge in a heartbeat ;)

[Deja Q]

197. Those posts sink to the bottom, you see... like a drop of water in an oil sludge.

[xultar]

200. I think it is funny that we @ DU diss the MSM for being single minded on fluff

bs subjects like Vick, Michael Jackson, the Octo-Mom

But, and I'm guilty of it too....we discuss the same shit to the same degree as the MSM on the board. Blinded by the fluff.

This thread is an example of that.

I love your siggy pix by the way. I think Q is sexy.

[whathehell]

204. Sorry, but some of us don't think torturing animals is "fluff"

We take such things a tad more seriously:eyes:

[xultar]

206. Ahh seriously you knew what the fuck I meant. I'm not going to even play your game.

[whathehell]

210. You certainly make a lot of assumptions...No. Sorry..A lot of us take cruelty to animals

VERY seriously and view it as a definite indication of "character"..If you can only deal with that fact by assuming I'm playing some sort of "game"...Go ahead, but you're wrong.

[bluestateguy]

201. I'd be fine with allowing him to play after a 20 year suspension

Oh, he'd be too old then? That an HP, not an MP.

[Name removed]

203. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

209. And "some people" on DU are...

crude, insensitive, celebrity worshipping crud.

If you can't argue intelligently, merely stating "of course he should get his job back" followed by a lame insult really doesn't cut it.:eyes:

[rd_kent]

208. Well said, I agree, but I still hate Vick

You are spot on in your post and have called us all on our hypocrisy. Hats off to you!

I could really give a shit for Vick, and I think the reason most do not want him back in the NFL is because we don't want to see his face while we watch our favorite past time. Mostly because it would remind us that we have done nothing but complain.

Again, great post!

[saltpoint]

233. Respectfully disagree.

Vick's income and celebrity profile is second to many observers to his obvious abuse of other living things.

What Vick did with dogs is not what dogs are for.

It's not income-relational to the dog in any case.

[Lex]

236. But he IS famous. So all the rest is not applicable. Fame has its drawbacks.

It has its benefits, but it has its drawbacks too.

He's famous so he's getting a lot of shit for what he did.

If he made a winning touchdown or whatever, he'd be getting a lot of worship over that.

It cuts both ways.

[wickerwoman]

241. He lost his name and he should have to work to rebuild it.

Michael Vick didn't just have a job; he was a brand. He sold "hero" like so many sports stars. Torturing animals in this case is analagous to the Exxon Valdez spill... sure they paid to clean up the mess but that didn't impact the damage to their name. I still drive past Exxon stations.

He has a right to get a job... sure. But he doesn't have a right to have the damage to his name wiped clean simply because he served two years in jail. And everyone else has a right to drive past the "Michael Vick" brand by refusing to buy NFL tickets and/or boycotting whichever team is stupid enough to hire him.

I still subscribe somewhat to the concept of personal honor and that certain actions are so despicable and unworthy of human beings that being convicted of them *should* stain your reputation for the rest of your life. It doesn't mean that you can't redeem yourself... simply that you should have to work damn hard to prove that you've changed. And torturing helpless animals is on that list for me and apparently many others.

It's not my job to look for solutions to Michael Vick's problems. And I wouldn't hire anyone who had an animal cruelty conviction... sorry just not worth the hassle. Something to think about before you torture animals.

[DeadEyeDyck]

242. In a way I agree with you

but you still have to be a sick fuck to watch two dogs rip themselves to death.

[Hansel]

246. If Michael Vick wasn't rich or famous he wouldn't be getting his job back.

He'd be a felon and would have a damn hard time finding a job.

I personally think he's a sociopath and I wouldn't want him within 80 miles of me. But if NFL wants him back, they deserve each other. He can try pounding the crap out of some other player and maybe one who loves his dogs might just let him know what it feels like to have his ass kicked.