BRAVE: Woman Facing 40 Lashes For Wearing Pants Wears Same Clothes To Trial

[babylonsister]

Lubna Hussein Pants Trial Adjourns Until Tuesday

First Posted: 07-29-09 10:28 AM | Updated: 07-29-09 02:37 PM


Lubna Hussein, who was arrested July 3 for wearing pants and is now standing trial, openly defied the court by wearing the very same outfit to trial that she was arrested for, AFP reports.

From the Associated Press:

A Sudanese female journalist facing 40 lashes for wearing trousers in public in violation of the country's strict Islamic laws told a packed Khartoum courtroom Wednesday she is resigning from a U.N. job that grants her immunity so she can challenge the law on women's public dress code.

Lubna Hussein was among 13 women arrested July 3 in a raid by members of the public order police force on a popular Khartoum cafe for wearing trousers, considered indecent by the strict interpretation of Islamic law adopted by Sudan's Islamic regime. All but three of the women were flogged at a police station two days later.

But Hussein and two other women decided they wanted to go to trial and Hussein invited human rights workers, western diplomats and fellow journalists to Wednesday's hearing.

Some of her women friends showed up in court Wednesday wearing trousers in a show of support.

"This is not a case about me wearing pants," said Hussein, who works in the media department of the U.N. Mission in Sudan and contributes opinion pieces to a left-leaning Khartoum newspaper.

"This is a case about annulling the article that addresses women's dress code, under the title of indecent acts. This is my battle. This article is against the constitution and even against Islamic law itself," she said after the hearing.

more...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/29/lubna-hussein-pants-trial_n_246901.html

[MADem]

1. I hope she wins. k/r. nt

[Enthusiast]

83. Even if she wins

she loses. Imagine living in such a society.

[MADem]

90. One small step, but a big one for her peers there. It's tough dealing with

a system of law that is a trip back hundreds of years in time.

[jobycom]

2. Wow. Now that's courage. Gave up UN immunity to fight the law?

I hope this makes the front page.

[ColbertWatcher]

43. No kidding. k+r, n/t

[dmr]

51. True raw courage

As an aside, and not to take away from Lubna Hussein's courageous act, but there was a time not long ago that many women in this country could not wear trousers to school or work.

It wasn't until the spring of my senior year, 1970, that we were allowed to wear slacks to school. No denim was allowed for either boys or girls.

In 1972, my job finally let us wear pantsuits, so long as the top and slacks matched. I worked in fabrics at J.L. Hudsons, and when polyester knit came out, the fabric flew off the bolts! It wasn't long after that we were allowed to wear trousers with a nice blouse or sweater.

As they say, we've come a long way. I truly hope Lubna Hussein remains safe, and that she can effect change.

[aquart]

3. When do women get to whip the men?

[jobycom]

26. Ideally, we should be trying to stop seeing things in those terms at all.

Women versus men, whipping as a punishment, crimes based on who or what a person is rather than on their actions... When that becomes history, we'll be a better world.

[efhmc]

73. You are, of course, right.. However, thousands of years of being

abused, ridiculed, belittled and demeaned because you are blessed with a uterus makes for loads of resentment and unfocused anger. This brave woman is confronting this evil and I wish her a day of justice. I do not look for it to happen. Religious men (and the minute amount of women with that kind of power) with total power are without a concept of social justice.

[Enthusiast]

84. I know it is very little

consolation, but men aboard naval ships were treated to merciless beatings until very recently, historically. The tiniest of infractions could result in a bleeding back.

Social justice is even now in it's infancy. We are just a shine away from the horrors of the 19th century. Some, even in the U.S. are advocates of returning to those labor and social standards. You can recognize them by their words.

[tomreedtoon]

28. The mullahs need more than whipping.

This will go on, no matter what you "infidel" Western women say, because to the mullahs you're women and are worth zero.

The only way it will stop is if the women in religiously psychotic countries start killing the mullahs. When they start finding those "religulous" characters dead in alleys, draped in burkas, then change can happen.

[Quantess]

37. This is not a sex thread. (n/t)

[valerief]

69. Only when they pay them to do it, apparently. nt

[TommyPaine]

89. Every night at my place.

But seriously, I wish her well. I'm glad this case is receiving international attention. It may seem trivial to some, but this microcosm helps expose the greater issue of radical injustice toward African and Middle Eastern women.

[Matariki]

4. hard to believe the world we live in sometimes...

i'm crying at the thought of her courage - and the courage of the women with her.

[Captain Hilts]

5. You, go, girl!

[charlie]

6. Thank you sir, may I have another?

That lady has got some serious STEEL. Big props to her.

[Lance_Boyle]

7. Brava and well done, Ma'am. n/t

[glitch]

8. Wow, I am in awe of these women. Bless you Lubna Hussein! K & R nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. Me too! I wish them luck, success, and safety!

[Statistical]

10. Wow.

“The martyr cannot be dishonored. Every lash inflicted is a tongue of fame; every prison a more illustrious abode.”

[timeforpeace]

11. Don't forget to try changing the religion which is at the source of the problems.

Don't say it's against Islamic law because Islamic law is interpreted by the guys, the same guys who arrested you. That's a losing argument.

[Chulanowa]

25. The seat of the problem is actually the guys doing the interpreting

Back when Islam got started, nobody wore trousers, so there's not exactly any prohibitions in Islam about women doing do.

Much as with America's christians, there's a large gap between what the religion says, and what its followers think it says.

[Statistical]

41. Strange it is in the Koran and other islamic religous texts

Now I think it is stupid prohibition but it would be like saying interperting the Bill of Rights as having a freedom of speech is the problem not the Bill of Rights.

Many people don't like it because it isn't PC but the Koran is not a very progressive book.

One Hadeeth is that Abu Hurairah said:
"Allah's Messenger (SAWS) cursed the man who wears attire which resembles women's clothing, and he cursed the woman who wears garments resembling men's clothing." (Abu Dawood, Ibn Majah and others).

The other Hadeeth is related by Abdullah bin Amr and he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "Women who resemble men are not of us (Muslims) nor are the men who resemble women of us." (Imam Ahmad and Al-Tabaraani).

Pretending Islam is something it is not is not the solution. Islam can be restrictive of women just as some forms of Christianity and other religions are. When that restriction passes over into civil and criminal law that is where there is a problem.

Acting like Islam doesn't have these prohibitions and it is just "interpretation" (like interperting the Bill of Rights to have a freedom of speech) is intellectually dishonest.

[Chulanowa]

44. Congratulations, you found the Hadith

And are pretending it's the Koran.

Sort of like using Tim LaHaye's books in an argument about Bible.

[Ladyhawk]

47. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the fundy Muslims consider the hadith

as canonical, scriptural, etc.?

[Chulanowa]

54. Some do. Some don't.

Most of them just lack the time or inclination to actually study the several hundred thousand Hadith in existence. Can't say I blame them, it's pretty dry stuff.

[Statistical]

50. Weak.

I never pretended to quote the Koran. I think I clearly indicated the quote.

Anyways like it or not the Hadith is considered the words and actions of the prophet. All schools (sects) of Islam consider it canonical. To outright dismiss it because you don't like what it says is heretical to a Muslim scholar.
The comparison to LaHaye is weak but you knew that. Even LaHaye would say his books are secular but about a religious topic. Nobody would consider them to be the word of God directly.

Of course this ignores the real point.

Islam places substantial restrictions on a woman's rights, and actions. To pretend otherwise is just PC garbage. Feel good, all religions are good, nonsense.

However Islam if a choice is not a problem. Many other religions are intolerant of women, homosexuals, outsiders, and secular traditions as much if not more than Islam.
The goal would be a separation of Islam from civil rights. A situation where a cleric could chastise a women for her appearance BUT that wouldn't lead to criminal charges and torture.


However if you want to pretend that the only Holy book in Islam is the Koran then here you go:
And say to the believing women
That they should lower
Their gaze and guard
Their modesty; that they
Should not display their
Beauty and ornaments except
What (must ordinarily) appear
Thereof; that they should
Draw their veils over
Their bosom and not display
Their beauty except
To their husbands, their fathers,
Their husbands’ fathers, their sons ...
24:31 The book of light.

[Chulanowa]

52. I get the feeling I'm wasting my time on you, but i'll give it a try anyway.

Timeforpeace stated that the religion itself is the problem. This is a shit-poor argument, because it removes responsibility from the people making hte convictions, doing the whipping, and all that, and further spreads the blame to every other Muslim in the world. By countering my point that it is the people who are the problem, you are essentially arguing the side of Timeforpeace's point, which serves to strip agency from Muslims. Somehow, a Christian violating someone's rights or body remains an individual, and is treated as such, but a Muslim doing the same is not an individual, but simply a mindless face in a sweeping tide of a monolithic religion. By stating the religion itself needs to be changed, one is making the statement that they believe individual Muslims to be either too stupid or too primitive to be treated as individuals. One is in effect saying that they will blindly follow wherever their religion points, like goslings following the first thing they see.

I, for one, take offense at portraying anyone in this manner.

Now, you're of course going to say "But that's not it at all!" or something to that effect. Okay. Perhaps you didn't realize, but allow me to show you your own words.

Anyways like it or not the Hadith is considered the words and actions of the prophet. All schools (sects) of Islam consider it canonical. To outright dismiss it because you don't like what it says is heretical to a Muslim scholar.

The implication here is that all Muslims see all of the Hadith as the true words of the prophet. Again, the single-minded hive religion!

You are wrong. yes, Shi'a and Sunni both consider the Hadith "canon" - But they take a lot of it with a grain of salt. The Sunni recognize six Hadith collections as valid, while the Shi'a accept four - and they're all different. Within the Shi'a, the largest sect doesn't even regard their four accepted Hadith as reputable, while the Sunni have a long tradition of debate and outright dismissal of the varying Hadith. This is of course only a scratching-the-surface view, and only as it pertains to the two major sects in Islam. rest assured that much as with pretty much everything in Islam, what one believes is up to the individual.

As for your assertion that I'm trying to say all religions are good? I'm sorry, I don't anthropomorphize religions and then try to assign them moral absolutes based on a rather arbitrary and ill-informed opinion I may have. Rather, religions are ideas. They're amoral. Neither good, nor bad. it's the religious that you have to keep the eye on.

But since you're interested in playing comparative religions... When's the last time you grabbed some gnarly stuff out of the Talmud and claimed that every Jew believes it unquestioningly? After all, if it's okay for you to do the exact same thing with regards to Muslims...

[mlevans]

74. Gee, I hope nobody gets hurt with all these canons going off.

[Enthusiast]

86. Lahaye's books are supplements

to the bible. Don't you know anything?





































:hide: :sarcasm:

[Deep13]

70. How it's practiced is what matters. nt

[ZombieHorde]

12. Damb, she is punk rock. K&R

[gratuitous]

13. Dear Mrs. Palin

In case you ever want to see what courage and conviction look like, may I refer you to Lubna Hussein? Also.

[ContinentalOp]

14. Wow, that is some inspiring courage! -nt-

[rrneck]

15. I can't get my head around it.

A woman willing to show such incredible courage in the face of such small minded stupidity over such a niggling detail regarding the wearing of pants.

You couldn't make this shit up.

I wish her all the best and hope to live up to her example.

[JonQ]

16. That's just their culture

we should try to respect and not judge them.

:sarcasm:

Seriously pants? That is some affront to islam? Sorry but if one woman wearing pants is a threat to your religion you should consider getting an new religion.

[BlooInBloo]

17. Yep. The State should not tell women what they can and cannot wear...

Nor should religions.

[gorfle]

18. Religion of peace. And no pants.

What a crock of shit. Let's beat someone for wearing pants because you might look at them and think about vaginas a little more than usual.

What an absolute crock of shit.

I can't wait for the day when religion is just some myth in dark fairy tales.

[chaplainM]

20. It's always been a myth in the dark fairy tale

I can't wait for the day when everyone realizes that.

[Odin2005]

19. That gal's got guts!

:woohoo:

[BlooInBloo]

22. Reminds me of the Scarlet Letter old guy getting rocks piled on his chest...

saying only "more weight".

[Ignis]

23. His name was Giles. That passage always moved me, too.

:patriot:

[BlooInBloo]

30. Thanks for the name - been too many decades.

[starroute]

34. If you mean Giles Corey, he really existed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giles_Corey

Giles Corey (also spelled Cory or Coree, c. 1611 – 19 September 1692) was a prosperous farmer and full member of the church in early colonial America who died under judicial torture during the Salem witch trials. Corey refused to enter a plea, and was crushed to death by stone weights in an attempt to force him to do so. . . .

As a result of his refusal to plead, on September 17, Sheriff Jonathan Corwin led Corey to a pit in the open field beside the jail and in accordance with the above process, before the Court and witnesses, stripped Giles of his clothing, laid him on the ground in the pit, and placed boards on his chest. Six men then lifted heavy stones, placing them one by one, on his stomach and chest. Giles Corey did not cry out, let alone make a plea.

After two days, Giles was asked three times to plead innocent or guilty to witchcraft. Each time he replied "more weight". More and more rocks were piled onto him, and the Sheriff, from time to time, would stand on the boulders staring down at Corey's bulging eyes. Robert Calef, who was a witness along with other townsfolk, later said, "in the pressing, Giles Corey's tongue was pressed out of his mouth; the Sheriff, with his cane, forced it in again".

Three mouthfuls of bread and water were fed to the old man during his many hours of pain. Finally, Giles Corey cried out at Sheriff Corwin, "I curse you Corwin and all of Salem!" and died. . . .

It is unusual for persons to refuse to plead, and extremely rare to find reports of persons who have been able to endure this painful form of death in silence. Since Corey refused to plead, he died in full possession of his estate, which would have otherwise been forfeited to the government. It passed on to his two sons-in-law, in accordance to his will.

[TexasObserver]

21. Wow. That's impressive.

[miyazaki]

24. what would these coward men bastards do if all the women

in these countries walked out in a strike to protest all their inhuman treatment?

[Echo In Light]

27. Courage of Conviction! A RARE quality in people

Rec'd

[Lorien]

48. Not in many modern women

if you look at those who have challenged power and corruption over the past nine years, most were women.

Rachel Corie, Sibel Edmonds, Barbara Boxer, the women of Iran, My Avatar, and on and on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odaMXa6iwC4

[Echo In Light]

65. Agreed ...The 'weaker' sex, my ass!

[Deep13]

72. Yes that's nonsense. nt

[Kadie]

29. Incredible.

Best of luck to her.

[Subdivisions]

31. The Rosa Parks of her own human rights struggle. I admire her courage. n/t

[KittyWampus]

32. Thanks for posting this story. It makes one stop and think.

[noiretextatique]

33. when i was in elementary school girls could not wear pants to school

this was in california. by time i was in the 6th grade in 1970, we finally were allowed to wear pants.
i applaud this woman's efforts, and i am reminded of just how much has changed here since i was a child.

[Ladyhawk]

46. I went to a Christian school that enforced the wearing of dresses and skirts.

Since then I can't stand to wear dress or skirt and will only do so on certain occasions. It still riles me.

Disciplinary problems at my school were punished by hitting the offender with a large wooden board. Holes were drilled in the boards to make the punishment more painful.

I was too cowed to buck the system. It wasn't 40 lashes, but I was only a kid.

This lady deserves an enormous amount of respect. I hope she wins.

[noiretextatique]

92. me too...haven't worn a dress or skirt in many years

we had corporal punishment too. i had a teacher who taped 12 rulers together and would hit us on the palm with that :scared: adults abuse children in many ways...because children can't fight back. i hope the lady wins too.

[efhmc]

77. When it was cold, we could wear pants under our skirts. So

silly. In college, we couldn't wear pants on the campus property but only when leaving to go off campus.

[noiretextatique]

91. completely idiotic

i had terrible rashes on my legs, so wearing dresses was humiliating and painful for me. the other kids made fun of me, and the dirt from the playground made my legs itch. it was cruel.

[Vidar]

35. K&r.

[vincna]

36. Where is the outrage from the "peace loving" Muslims?

This sort of thing shows up in the news regularly, but the silence from Muslims in this country (and everywhere else) seems to be deafening. Am I just missing it? Isn't there a majority of Muslims who find practices such as this barbaric and inexcusable? It's their religion - shouldn't they take the lead in bringing their own religion out of the Middle Ages?

[Quantess]

38. Don't hold your breath waiting.

[jobycom]

39. All around you. Listen for it, maybe you'll hear it.

Or maybe you'll just hear what you've been told you will hear. :shrug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. Do you listen to a lot of Muslim radio?

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. I was wondering if he read Muslim websites

[Chulanowa]

53. Cuz whut thuh nooz sez is troo! An' whut it dun' say ain't!

I used to have a text file of links to over three hundred organizations, news stories, projects, and individuals who are speaking out from the Muslim community against events like this, against terrorism, who are striving for more liberalism in their communities and religion.

I stopped using it for two reasons.

One, it got lost somewhere between one of my half-dozen computer changes, reformats, reinstalls, you name it.

Two, I discovered that people who ask what you just did are, each and every one, simply don't want their questions answered. Indeed, every person who has posted the tripe you just did (And I'm pretty certain it's copy/pasted tribe, at that, I've seen your exact phrasing too many times to count) isn't actually asking a question. No, they're making a statement and phrasing it as a question to try to shield themselves from criticism.

You know the fucking answers. You just choose to ignore them.

[vincna]

64. Sounds like the dog ate your homework

If I knew the answers, I wouldn't be asking. So far, all I've seen in this thread is criticism for asking fair questions - no one has responded with any links or really dealt with the issue.

Let's assume what you say is true. In that case, the best you can say is 1.) The people involved haven't been very effective because the abuse of women continues; and 2.) They are not getting their message out to a large enough audience or you wouldn't be hearing so many people asking these questions.

What I want is for Muslim women to enjoy the same human rights that men do, but it's not happening in many parts of the Muslim world. I'm appalled by that. Where am I wrong?

[maxsolomon]

62. see the exchange earlier in the thread for typical r5elativist parsing of islam

that's not canon, it's canon but the differing sects accept different parts of it, its the interpretation, orthodox judaism and fundy christianity are no better, etc. i think its fair to say that islam needs a reformation, at the very least, to allow it to accomodate the modern world.

ms. hussein should begin planning her exit from sudan now - this is quixotic and she sounds as if she's fully aware of that. she might even land a job at the AEF in NYC with ayaan hirsi ali.

[and-justice-for-all]

40. Fight On!!

[usregimechange]

42. She is my hero

[TheKentuckian]

49. That's a level of steel that is all but gone onver here.

We are currently all about knuckling under and inventing excuses for over reaching authority rather than opposing it.

Fear is the mind killer.

[whathehell]

56. Wow. BIG time respect for her guts...It does make you question

how "balls" ever became a synonym for "courage"..and oh yes.."pussy" for the lack of it.

Same stupid mindset that deifies men and trivializes women, I guess.:shrug:

[prayin4rain]

57. What a brave amazing lady! n/t

[RedCloud]

58. The only correct religion is nudism. Dramatic proof offered inside!

You are born into the nudist religion. Come on. Admit the naked truth!

[barbtries]

59. it's hard for me to even imagine

having to appear in court for wearing pants. the dress code was relaxed at my high school when i was 15 years old - sometime in my sophomore year of high school, so...mmm long time ago. 1971? i think.

i never wore a skirt to school again. i think these patriarchal and ridiculous laws are not about gawd's will at all; they're a way to make women suffer. it mystifies and depresses to observe how many in this world still refuse to recognize the humanity of us all. i hope Lubna Hussein's courage sparks widespread change.

[ensho]

60. I went to US public schools when girls were not allowed to wear pants

to school.

we won that battle.
l
hope Lubna and the women win their battle.

there are more women in the world then men.

[winter999]

88. Here's the rub -

Even if you were to disobey the dress code back then, there would be No Lashes.

The one thing much worse than the crime here is it's punishment.

(s'ok - there's lot's of feminine injustice last few days - just read that an adult woman was chained to death by her father for owning a cell-phone! Guess the father's religion.)

[jfkraus]

61. "You're only making worse for yourself!"

"Making it worse? How can it be any worse?"

--Monty Python, Life of Brian

[Uncle Joe]

63. Kicked and recommended for her courage and truth to injustice.

Thanks for the thread, babylonsister.

[skygazer]

66. That gave me goosebumps

I'd like to think I had that kind of courage. I don't know that I would, though.

[I Have A Dream]

67. This is a timeless issue. Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for the same thing. nt

[vincna]

68. Most of the world has come a long way in 600 years - nt

[Deep13]

71. Thanks Islam!

Christian authorities would be doing this today if we allowed it.

[newtothegame]

75. Racist against other cultures. n/t

[GoneOffShore]

85. Ah the tired but always quoted "cultural imperialism" meme

Such bullshit.
For a nice solid refutation -
go here - http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/licentious_pants.php#comments

Comment #12 by Joe

"Ah, the old cultural relativism argument. Some societies really are objectively better than others. For example, a society that is the same as another for all aspects but the fact that it holds slaves is objectively worse. There are some things that are wrong no matter what social system you have - like rape. Treating women as chattel is right there bordering on "completely wrong in all contexts".

[JDPriestly]

76. I am 100% on Lubna's side on this one.

And what I really don't understand is why skirts are considered more modest and womanly in various cultures? In fact, pants cover a woman's body much more thoroughly. They protect against rape more effectively it would seem to me. (I dexon't really know anything about that.) And, if worn with a suit jacket or tunic blouse that reaches close to your thighs make you look boringly shapeless.

Hillary Clinton is a lovely woman, but one of the reasons professional women of her generation (including me) wear a lot of pant suits in public is that they conceal a lot more than skirts, they don't pick up dirt and mud as much as long skirts, they don't let everyone stare at your legs like short skirts and you can sit in any position in a chair without exposing yourself.

Go, Lubna!

[BolivarianHero]

78. Nice...

Maybe people like her will help Sudan become like the more civilized ex-Soviet republics of Western Asia, Muslim countries where gender equality and universal literacy are givens.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[winyanstaz]

80. Bravo! What a brave lady

How can we help her? It is women like this that make me so proud of being female. :)

[colsohlibgal]

81. The Anti Harry Reid

Good for her, a real profile in courage. Pay attention democrats.

[happygoluckytoyou]

82. g o H I L L A R Y.....OH? nevermind...

[yellowcanine]

87. I don't get it. The pants that many Islamic women in Pakistan wear are very modest.

Isn't that the value the fundamentalists are trying to enforce?