Absolutely unbelievable -- this person should go to prison for life

[5thGenDemocrat]

No driver's license, registration or insurance. Never, apparently, had a driver's license. Kids not secured. Two kids dead (one run over by a semi), another ejected but survived. What the hell?
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090729/METRO/907290387/1409/METRO/Mom-of-unbelted-kids-in-fatal-Ohio-crash-didn-t-have-driver-s-license
John
Some people are too goddamned stupid to be allowed out in general society. This would be one of them.

[Deja Q]

1. People do 'texting' or even 'sexting' while driving. Others use fire alarm boxes to play pranks.

What can we do to restore civility? Too many people prefer to bash religion and conveniently forget to put in a substitute that puts in discipline, then we bitch about the lack of discipline...

Some would say "prison for life is too harsh, waaaaaaaaaah" too.

Enough is fucking enough in our society, as far as I'm concerned these days. Too many good people getting fucked around by vermin. Somebody has to put their proverbial leading foot down.

[5thGenDemocrat]

4. Screw the lack of a driver's license, insurance, registration, etc.

I mean, I've driven illegally in my poorer days. But what kind of POS wouldn't bother to secure their own children? It's too damned bad this asshole survived. She should've been shot through the steering column and windshield just as an object lesson.
John
Man, if there's proof that there is no God, this would be it.

[Deja Q]

7. Good point. I'll admit I've lost some focus too, tonight...

People just don't care anymore. Anyone who tries to step in usually get told "Stay out of my business, waaah". What can a person do...

That bastard probably should go to jail for life because that shit shouldn't be tolerated. Won't stop others trying to say that's too harsh a thing to do either...

Given our society's current state, maybe the children were better off. Especially as it was quick and they wouldn't have known. I don't know what to think, anymore...

[LooseWilly]

32. "Stay out of my business, waaaah"

"But I know better than you, waaaah.... so I'm here to tell you what to do, waaaah... because I don't like what you do when you're not listening to me, waaaah..."


:+

[ecstatic]

43. A lot of people don't realize the importance of seatbelts

When I was younger, my parents never really wore seatbelts and most times we (the kids) didn't either. I always wear my seatbelt now and they do most times (to avoid getting a ticket). I always have to tell my mom to put her seatbelt on before going on the interstate but it's a pain getting her to do so.

[ingac70]

5. Religion doesn't equal disipline.

most of the biggest, most ill behaved shitheads claim to believe in God.

[Deja Q]

6. I agree totally.

It just seems, over the last 40 years, those saying how religion is bad can't be bothered to say or do anything to put in a viable substitute. That doesn't mean there aren't religious hypocrites... I've mixed two disparate issues. Been a long night...

And "devil's advocate" time, improbable as this sounds: Given the state of decay in our society, how much can we bash the hypocrites? They're middle aged or almost dead, so if their offspring or offspring of offspring choose to act like savages, we may as well let them have some fun too.

:shrug:

[Fumesucker]

10. This kind of stupidity has been going on forever..

It's not a recent phenomenon at all..

As for religion making people better or more responsible, I'd
be willing to bet the great majority of people in this picture
were regular churchgoers, I grew up in the same milieu.

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/images/life/lynching.jpg

[ingac70]

11. I don't want a substitute for religion.

The same religion that says you shouldn't kill advocates stoning to death rebellious children.

Religion is shit, and never stopped bad behavior.

[ima_sinnic]

18. why is a "substitute" needed for religion?

belief in mythology as literal truth is its own kind of stupid. what can "substitute" for that?

[LeftishBrit]

16. Religion and road deaths have nothing to do with each other.

In the UK, the number of fatal road accidents has *decreased* in the last few years, and is now at its lowest level since records began in 1930:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:_RtxGFml6M0J:news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7475893.stm+road+deaths+per+year+uk&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

And this despite the fact that there are far more cars about now than there were in the 1930s.

This is a rather remarkable achievement under the circumstances (of course, any road deaths at all are still too many). Some of it is of course due to medical advances meaning that people now survive accidents that would have been fatal in the past; and some of it is due to some not entirely desirable social changes (children are kept indoors much more than in the past). But a lot of it is due to better enforcement both of driving regulations -especially the speed limit - and of safety standards for vehicles and roads.

Religion has declined dramatically in the UK during the time when road casualty records began - obviously the two aren't related.

[5thGenDemocrat]

25. Can't speak to the UK but here in the US

Stricter enforcement of drunk driving laws have something to do with it, too.
John
Maybe you could enlighten us regarding the changes, if any, in British law concerning drinking and driving. I'd be interested in learning whether the stricter laws here in the US have parallels in the UK (and in Europe, for that matter).

[PVnRT]

22. Huh? Only religion can lead to discipline?

That's just plain idiotic. Or do you buy into the fundie bullshit that atheists have no morals or ethics, too?

[bluestateguy]

2. I'm sure her lawyer will have all kinds of excuses ready to go

Similar to the lawyer for the woman in SC this week who allowed her 14 year old son to grow to 555 pounds. I saw her lawyers on one of the CNN shows, and they made excuse after excuse.

[Deja Q]

9. 555 pounds? What does she do; strap him in a chair and force-feed him ding-dongs and twinkies?!

:wow:

555 pounds - that's not neglect. That's insanity to let that happen.

[Obamanaut]

33. According to what I've read here on DU in previous 'overweight'

threads, his body knew "intuitively" what it wanted to weigh, and adjusted it's "set point."

Must have taken several adjustments

[armyowalgreens]

21. I never did find any info on the kids medical history...

He could have gland issues. It's very hard for an average person to eat their way to 555 pounds. Especially for a teen.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions if I were you.

[DeadEyeDyck]

3. Just about got killed yesterday

car came around a corner and just kept coming into my lane. I slowed and moved over but was up against a steep bank. I blasted the horn and at the last moment, the car swerved so hard, it went up on two wheels. I nearly soiled my shorts.

I could not tell if he was on a cell phone but he sure was not looking at the road.

[charlie]

8. Oh, man

Patrick and a passenger in the minivan, Jerome Thomas, 37, of Virginia, were treated for injuries at MetroHeath and released. They told officers they were wearing seat belts.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/07/two_children_killed_in_lorain.html

And they lived. Treated and released. Imagine that. Seatbelts are pretty freakin' reliable when you bother to use them, eh?

[5thGenDemocrat]

13. I'm 52 and obsolete. Times are changing. But here's what I don't get...

I know I get snotty when I hear of some 22 year old with five or six kids by five or six different daddies. But, my outdated morality aside (and fuck it -- I'm no arbiter of anything and thank goodness for that), these women try their best to TAKE CARE OF THEIR KIDS. A mother dog will protect her puppies to the death. It's simple animal instinct.
What kind of person would buckle herself in and not make sure her own babies do the same? I'm not even saying child safety seats -- I'm saying seat belts to at least keep the kids inside the vehicle.
I don't get it. I sure as hell don't.
John
This person should go to prison for a very long time. And then burn in hell for a whole lot longer.

[charlie]

14. I hear you

It seems everyone's got more 'tude than sense, or even a simple awareness they're not the only ones in the world, anymore.

2 kids smeared on the highway and 1 in ICU, that's a rough lesson in consequences. I would've just ended myself after a boneheaded fuckup like that.

She's young, she won't be old and decrepit when she gets out of prison, maybe she'll be wiser by then.

Maybe. I dunno. I don't get it, either.

[Fumesucker]

23. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the kids were buckled in when the ride started..

It's not easy to keep track of that many kids and drive at the same time.

FWIW, I'm even more obsolete than you.

[bertman]

24. It would surprise me, Fumesucker. This is a woman who has never even bothered to get

her driver's license. Do you really think she's going to worry about buckling up her kids--even if it's a law?

[MadMaddie]

12. I have no words...

Those kids should be alive today....what a sad and avoidable situation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Tragic

[armyowalgreens]

17. I don't think she deserves life in prison...

I'm sure having your children die is punishment enough.

[proteus_lives]

19. No it's not.

She's guilty of quite a few crimes. She deserves a long stretch in prison.

[armyowalgreens]

20. Have you ever experienced something like the mother in that story did?

It seems as though you are attacking this from two distinct angles.

1. She broke the law
2. Fuck the law she deserves a "long prison stretch".

[proteus_lives]

26. I've been in a car accident, if thats what you mean.

I'm not saying fuck the law. Given what she did, she deserves, can and will get a very long prison sentence. Child endangerment, negligent homicide, driving without a license, repeat offender. She is a threat to herself, her family and society.

[armyowalgreens]

27. Is everyone who initiates a violent car accident a threat to society?

Or are they just incredibly stupid? I don't support locking up the stupid.


This woman is not a violent criminal. She wouldn't get more than a few months to a couple years in jail and a further suspension of her license.



My point was that you have never experienced having your children die because of you own actions. So you cannot say how much she is suffering.

[proteus_lives]

28. No license, no insurance...

And she's had her driving privileges suspended 12 times since '01. Yeah, she's a threat to society. And oh yeah, she caused the death of other human beings. This is negligent homicide or depraved indifference. She's going to do a lot longer then a few months.

"My point was that you have never experienced having your children die because of you own actions. So you cannot say how much she is suffering."

I don't care how much she is suffering, I just want her to do her suffering in jail. BTW, if she had given a shit about her kids, they would have had safety-belts on.

[armyowalgreens]

29. "I don't care how much she is suffering, I just want her to do her suffering in jail."

Oh lovely. How very compassionate.

As far as the seat belts go, someone with the driving record like her is probably not very smart. Which would explain why no one was wearing seat belts.

Do I think she learned her lesson? It's hard for any of us to say one way or the other. I do not think it is wise for anyone of us to run around, like chickens with our heads cut off, screaming how this lady needs to spend the rest of her life in jail (or for a "very long time"). Reactions like that are not based on anything logical. They're based on emotion.

[proteus_lives]

30. This is logic.

I'll reserve my compassion for her dead children. I have virtually no emotions for the mother.

I agree that she's not smart, so does the mean she's not accountable?

Genius or retard, she did not see to the safety of her children.


"Do I think she learned her lesson? It's hard for any of us to say one way or the other." Fuck, you are kid, aren't you? It's not about "lessons" it's holding a person accountable for their actions. She killed her children, she has be held responsible for that act.

BTW, it's very amusing to you accuse other of reacting emotionally. Emotional judgments are virtually all I've ever seen from you.

[armyowalgreens]

31. I think our legal system focuses too much on vengeance and too little on justice.

And that bias is reflected in the general population. No one has mentioned any good that can come from this. No one has said anything about "rehabilitation". Instead, everyone is screaming about "punishment"...

In other words, you are all screaming for vengeance. Which flies in the face of justice. No one gives a crap about holding her accountable. They just want to see her suffer in prison.

Everyone on here is guilty of reacting emotionally. I am most definitely guilty. I don't thnk you really believe that "virtually all" my responses are emotional. That's just some illegitimate stab at me. But whether or not you really believe that is irrelevant. It doesn't dismiss the fact that I'm right. The people calling for this lady to serve life in prison are not only contradicting the law, but they are reacting illogically.


It would be interesting to see if she has ever been jailed, for a significant amount of time, for her previous violations. If she hasn't, a greater portion of blame, for this situation, can be placed on a relaxed legal system.

[proteus_lives]

34. I think you are a little fuzzy on the words vengeance and justice

"No one has mentioned any good that can come from this. No one has said anything about "rehabilitation". Instead, everyone is screaming about "punishment"..."

Because punishment is what is needed in this situation. How each exactly can she be rehabilitation from the deaths of her two children? She's not a child, she's not mentally impaired, a junkie or oppressed. (You'll need to think of another reason to let her get away with murder.) She's a fully functional adult who made a series of wrong decisions and now she must be punished for them. Punishment is not vengeance. Vengeance would be putting her in a fatal car accident. I Think you need to realize that punishment is part of justice. Not all criminal cases are rehabilitation ones. Her being in prison is right and it is holding her accountable for her actions. She has an established a pattern of indifference and uncaring behavior that led to this situation.


"Everyone on here is guilty of reacting emotionally. I am most definitely guilty. I don't thnk you really believe that "virtually all" my responses are emotional. That's just some illegitimate stab at me. But whether or not you really believe that is irrelevant. It doesn't dismiss the fact that I'm right. The people calling for this lady to serve life in prison are not only contradicting the law, but they are reacting illogically."

I was actually pointing out your naivete.

"It would be interesting to see if she has ever been jailed, for a significant amount of time, for her previous violations. If she hasn't, a greater portion of blame, for this situation, can be placed on a relaxed legal system."

Why are you so willing to shift blame away from this woman? There isn't always a bigger problem. Sometimes there are just people who do the wrong thing. I think you need to think about what she destroyed before automatically casting her in a role she doesn't deserve.

[armyowalgreens]

37. "casting her in a role she doesn't deserve."

Wow. The hypocrisy is killing me. Did it hurt when you typed that sentence?



If someone in here actually wanted punishment in hopes that it would turn her around, I would agree with you. But that isn't the case is it? People want punishment for the sake of punishment.

What do you call that....uhhh...oh that's right. It's called "vengeance".

How each exactly can she be rehabilitation from the deaths of her two children? She's not a child, she's not mentally impaired, a junkie or oppressed. (You'll need to think of another reason to let her get away with murder.) She's a fully functional adult who made a series of wrong decisions and now she must be punished for them. Punishment is not vengeance. Vengeance would be putting her in a fatal car accident. I Think you need to realize that punishment is part of justice. Not all criminal cases are rehabilitation ones. Her being in prison is right and it is holding her accountable for her actions. She has an established a pattern of indifference and uncaring behavior that led to this situation.

Now I'm going to attempt to explain to you why that statement is full of contradictions and stupidity. But it seems so obvious that I might have trouble putting it into words.

1. The dead children cannot be brought back to life. So I'm not understanding why you would think they have anything to do with rehabilitation.

2. "she's not mentally impaired, a junkie or oppressed"

I'm going to try and tackle this giant waste of words. The mentally impaired, more than likely, are incapable of rehabilitation for very obvious reasons. So I don't know why you put them in the same classification as junkies or the oppressed. Furthermore, I'm not sure why you had to add the "oppressed". We are specifically referencing the rehabilitation of habitual offenders. How are the oppressed relevant? They aren't.

3. If the entire point of the legal system is to maintain an established set of ethical standards,the point of ethical standards being to keep humanity from suffering, we would want to treat criminals with that in mind. One would want the highest net-positive gain from situations. So the obvious plan should be to attempt rehabilitation so that the offender has the possibility of not only living an enjoyable life, but also so that we exhaust all possibilities of making the offender capable of contributing to society once again. Yes, in order for an outcome to be just, it must take into consideration societies potential benefit.

Punishment for the sake of punishment does not meet the ultimate goal of a legal system. If it accomplishes any sort of rehabilitation it is purely by accident. My point is that in a system based on vengeance, even if the mother in the story had actually gained the capacity to right her wrongs simply because of the accident, she would still be punished for the sake of punishment. Which is pointless and a waste; also the reality of vengeance.


4. Punishment, alone, is not vengeance. You are correct. Punishment for the sake of punishment is, however.

5. The reaction does not need to be equal in order to be called vengeance. Vengeance is not "an eye for an eye". That's simply ridiculous. Vengeance can be a lesser reaction or a greater reaction.

6. Punishment for the sake of punishment is not justice at all. In fact, it is completely unjust. Punishment should be used only as a way of teaching the offender why what they did was wrong.

7. I never said all criminals are capable of rehabilitation. So that statement was pointless.

8. No, you think her being in prison is right because you are making a knee-jerk reaction based on limited information. It may or may not be right. But I'm leaning towards "not right". I lean towards "not right" for most offenders. Because most US prisons are not havens of rehabilitation and lessons learned. They are places where criminals learn how to be better criminals. They are places that teach an already indifferent and uncaring person to be even more indifferent.

I say that because I have personal experience with ex-cons and former prison teachers. The former prison teacher explained that there are two groups of people in prison. Those that need to be there because they are incapable of turning their lives around and those that are capable of being rehabilitated. He very explicitly explained that, for those who could turn their lives around, prison is the worst thing possible for them.



I think all too often, unconventional thinking is mislabeled as "being naive". Call me whatever you'd like.


I'm not trying to shift the blame. I'm trying to identify the source of this problem. Excuse me for not screaming "SHE'S A WITCH!!!" and joining the populist rage that all too often infects these topics.

[proteus_lives]

38. I disagree with some of your points.

"1. The dead children cannot be brought back to life. So I'm not understanding why you would think they have anything to do with rehabilitation"

Your customary lack of compassion/consideration for the victims is once again telling. Victims do figure in with the rehabilitation process, I don't think some criminals are imprisoned in the hopes of rehabilitation. What are we trying to rehabilitate the woman of? Not obeying traffic laws? Bad driving? Continuous and casual indifference to the law and her children's lives? She should go to prison because she caused the death of and injured other human beings because of her actions. She doesn't need rehabilitation. She needs to be prison because of her actions. If she wants to take classes, go to therapy or join a religion while there, I have no problem with that. She can start a new life once she gets out.

I mentioned the junkie, crazy things because often people do have valid or semi-valid reasons for breaking the law and those people deserve consideration. I do not believe this woman is one of them.

"I say that because I have personal experience with ex-cons and former prison teachers. The former prison teacher explained that there are two groups of people in prison. Those that need to be there because they are incapable of turning their lives around and those that are capable of being rehabilitated. He very explicitly explained that, for those who could turn their lives around, prison is the worst thing possible for them."

Smart guy, that teacher. I have had immediate family members in prison. I love them like no other but they deserved to be there. And they came out as better people. Because they wanted to turn their lives around. I agree that prison is the worst possible place but that does not negate the fact that some people deserve to be there because of their actions. If person is capable of rehabilitation that does not mean punishment is not a factor. The prison system should be geared towards rehabilitation of those worth it and capable of it.

"I'm not trying to shift the blame. I'm trying to identify the source of this problem." Here is where I disagree with you. The source of this problem is simple. A irresponsible and indifferent woman caused the death and injury of other human beings. She deserves to be in prison for this crime. The appropriate amount of time should be determined by a judge and jury of her peers. It's not a complex issue.

"I think all too often, unconventional thinking is mislabeled as "being naive". Call me whatever you'd like." That's part of being naive, do you think anything you've said is unconventional or original? I've heard every point and thought before.

[armyowalgreens]

40. ...

How would rehabilitation change this lady? It seems as though she suffers from social and mental problems.

When you rehabilitate criminals, you do not rehabilitate them of the crimes they committed. That's not how it works. There is often a social or mental problem behind the actions. As you have already stated, this woman clearly suffers from apathy. There may be other underlying issues as to why she simply doesn't give a damn about the rule of law.

There is also the possiblity that she isn't apathetic but, instead, actively defies the law. Which can also be linked to social problems.


I still don't see how your examples have any relevance to this conversation. But whatever, let's move on.


I have family members who use to be in prison. And in all honesty, they didn't deserve to be in that nightmare. What they needed was help, but prison did not help. Fortunately, programs after release helped a lot more (half-way house, drug programs).


There's no doubt that certain people must be put in some sort of prison system. Those who are not willing to be or are not capable of being rehabilitated will find themselves back in prison over and over again. But to suggest that this woman is one of those people because of constant traffic violations and license suspensions, is simply ludicrous. Compare that to serial rapists or mass murderers, and it kind of shows just how different that womans crimes were.

Did her indifference end up causing the death of two kids? More than likely, yes. But that doesn't mean she is a damn monster. What happened was horrible. It was the horrible, unlikely, consequence of violations that many people are guilty of every day.

Your customary lack of compassion/consideration for the victims is once again telling. Victims do figure in with the rehabilitation process

What do you want me to say? Should I join the choir calling for the woman to be locked up forever? Is that compassion? Maybe you just think that because I am often the one defending the rights of the offender. What happened was horrible. Two kids lost their lives. But it seems as though many people don't think there is justice unless the crime can be undone. That's simply ridiculous. The children are dead. They are not going to be brought back. Of course, that changes when the victims of the crime are still alive. I'm sure the child in the ICU will play a very large roll in this womans future.

I don't believe I ever said my thinking was "original" or revolutionary. I said it was unconventional. And clearly it is, based on this thread. So you can stop patting yourself on the back for that snappy wisdom you left at the end. Your attempted smear was unsuccessful.

[kiva]

35. As far as blaming a 'relaxed legal system'

seems to me it's a damned if you do/damned if you don't. If she would have been sentenced to any significant amount of time in jail for her previous offenses, can you imagine the outcry? "What a horrible thing, to separate children from their mother! And it's not like she committed a violent offense. And she probably HAD to drive to get to work, and couldn't afford insurance!" Nope, she knew she was driving illegally, she allowed her kids to ride without seatbelts...this is on her, not anyone else.

[Enthusiast]

42. Excellent point on the vengeance.

There is something else I want to point out. Nearly every newspaper in the country reports a weekly auto collision in which the occupants die when they could have survived if they were belted in. I'm aware of this because I survived a serious collision only because I was belted in.

[Jkid]

36. Two things need to be done to her.

Jail her for life or ban her from getting a drivers license for life. I prefer for her to get a driving ban for life.

[flvegan]

39. Agreed.

If the report is accurate, then she should never see freedom ever again and should serve as a message. Secure your fucking children!

[depakid]

41. Yep- prisons are the answer to every outrage