Some states quoting 'the patriot act' are discriminating against US born women!

[angstlessk]

I went to MI Secretary of State's office today (their DMV) to get my Michigan license and was told I had to show why my birth certificate name was different than my name on my social security care and my driver's license..well ONLY WOMEN HAVE TO GIVE UP THEIR BIRTH NAME WHEN MARRIED and it was not voluntary until the mid 80's..

I have not carried my maiden name since I was 19..am now 60..but I have been married 3 times each time in a different state and not my birth state..and will have to pay for the marriage license in each state..never mind I have to recall the month, day and year I was married. I have not been married for 25 years!!!

If I were a foreigner I could use some state document which did not disclose my maiden name...

THIS IS ILLEGAL!!! AND I AM SCREWN BECAUSE OF IT!!!

I called my representative today, almost in tears! Today is my drop dead day..VA only gives you 30 days to establish residence and I spent those getting my birth certificate and my social security card..now I need 3 marriage licenses..and then they probably want the 2 divorce decrees after I present the marriage license???

THIS IS BLATANT DISCRIMINATION MEN DO NOT HAVE TO DO THIS NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES THEY ARE MARRIED AND DIVORCED!!

[mzteris]

1. and another good reason

to drop the barbaric practice of changing your name.

It convey's OWNERSHIP and women should never change their name (unless their name is like Butts or something. lol)

[angstlessk]

2. I thought my mom lived in the 'old days'...but turns out I did too..my signing the marriage license

changed my name automatically back then..who knew? no one questioned..it's just the way it was

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

3. I never asked my ex to change her name

She did so on her own.

Personally, I wanted to do the opposite - I thought her last name was cooler than mine!

[angstlessk]

6. When I was married it was automatic...no request required...it was legally changed via the marriage

certificate.

But on Edit..kudos to you, fellow!

[Scout]

9. all you have to do is sign the certificate with your birth name

it's not that hard, really.

[angstlessk]

10. what certificate???

[Scout]

23. marriage license, marriage certificate, whatever the state calls the document

when you are married, you sign the certificate with your birth name if that's what you want to use after marriage, or with your married name it that's what you want.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

39. That's correct -

it's your legal name.

I use my married name as a lawyer, but my birth name everywhere else......................

[Iris]

7. That;'s funny - I've often wondered why more people don't do that.

Would it be so bad for the last name Crapps to die out?

[Berry Cool]

18. Hear, hear. Women should stop changing their names just because they marry.

The reasons for doing it are outdated and old.

Men aren't expected to "show their commitment to the marriage" that way. Why should women be? Can't they be equally committed without changing their names?

Not all marriages last a lifetime. Isn't it silly and inconvenient to expect a woman to either keep changing her name to the name of whatever man she's married to at the time, or switch back to an old name?

If couples have kids, they can pick a last name to use for the kids. If that's too tough for society to deal with, to keep track of "whose kids are whose," too bad. In modern blended families that can be hard enough anyway.

If the idea is to help other people avoid confusion, men could just as easily take their wives' names...but they usually don't.

[Recursion]

24. It seems more popular now than a generation ago

Then again, the millenials who are already married are probably more "marriage-minded" than their peers, but about half the boomer couples I know have either hyphenated names or the wife kept her last name, and I don't know any younger couples than me that did that.

[liberalhistorian]

40. I'm sorry, but that's kind of painting with a broad brush there,

don't you think? If the woman genuinely wants to change her name, then that should be her choice, same with not changing her name. You sound just as rigidly judgmental as those who demand that women automatically change their name. It's no one's business what she decides to do, including changing her name, if that's what she wants.

I got married a couple years ago and compromised. I was in my early forties before I married and was solidly known, professionally and personally, by my maiden name; a name which is, btw, extremely unusual and uncommon and of which I am very proud to have. I wanted to keep it, but I also wanted to take my new husband's name. So I legally hyphenated it. Hubby didn't care either way, it was totally up to me. His first wife never took his name, always kept her maiden name in both of her marriages. You'd think that'd be it, that it'd be my own business and no one else's, right? Wrong. People on both sides comment ceaselessly and it drives me fucking crazy when either side weighs in because it's NONE of their business whatsoever.

So cut the gals some slack. If they genuinely want to change the name, then that's their business, and theirs alone. If they don't, that's their business also.

[Berry Cool]

46. Of course it's their business if they want to, but why do they? Without even thinking?

Just because it's a custom? It's a sexist custom. If they want to be sexists, that's their business, but why do they want to continue a sexist custom? I'm just curious.

I'm also curious as to why so many women are so willing to change their name to their husband's name when their husbands wouldn't even dream of doing the reverse (which is why it's so sexist).

By the way, the name a woman's born with is her BIRTH name, not her MAIDEN name. It only becomes her "maiden name" if she changes it when she marries. There's not really such a thing as "keeping your maiden name." If you don't change it, it's not maiden.

[Romulox]

45. Is a woman's father name any more "hers" than her husbands?

Never really got that. Both practices convey "ownership" in the same degree. :shrug:

[Berry Cool]

47. No, but at least in that sense, men's and women's names are equal.

Normally, they both get their names from their father. So they're on equal footing as far as that's concerned.

The inequality comes in when they marry and the woman's just expected to take his name, as a matter of course. And if she doesn't, people say "Oh, you kept your MAIDEN name?" Or they question her commitment to her marriage. Or they say "But how do people know you're married?" or "But what are you naming your children?" Or they say "Oh, you did it for professional reasons, right, but in private life you're Mrs. Husband's Name?"

It's sexist.

[Romulox]

51. I don't find that argument very compelling.

Her maiden name was not her mother's maiden name. Nor her grandmother's, etc. etc. I don't see how a woman keeping her father's name is a feminist line in the sand.

[noamnety]

4. You make a great point here

In the interest of saving you a bit of hassle and money, is there a chance that your third marriage license lists the previous names - saving you from having to get the first two?

It is discriminatory, I'm with you 100% on that and I don't want my suggestion to detract from that. I'm just offering it as potential help.

[angstlessk]

5. I don't know, since I have not yet received it..and CA says it could take up

to 6 months and their form requires that I know my ex husband's father's name, his birthdate, and where he was born??? sorry...my memory was not that good WHEN I was married to him..never mind 25 years latter. But my legal name at the time was my married name..so I do not think it will have my birth name? I can only hope?

P.S. IT IS $13.00 A MAN NEVER HAS TO PAY!

On Edit..and that is just for the one from CA. My last marriage. How much the one from RI and the one from FL costs? I have no idea?

[csziggy]

36. Here is where to apply for a Florida copy

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/planning_eval/vital_statistics/marriage.htm

The fee for a marriage record is $5.00 for one certification and $4.00 for each additional certification of the same record when ordered at the same time. For an extra $10 you can get RUSH handling.

[dflprincess]

8. Several years ago I took my mom in to get her a state ID card

she hadn't had a license in years. (This may have been right before the patriot act). She came in with both her birth certificate and her marriage license.

She was waited on by a very polite - but very young man. (Mom is currently 85, I'd guess she was at least 78 when this happened). First off, she had a copy of her birth certificate that she had pickeup up in 1942 it had all sorts of information on it that you don't see now (the birthers would love it) and...it was typed (which makes it look suspicious nowdays). The clerk was taken aback and showed it to an older clear who assured him it was fine and showed him where the county seal was.

Then he looked at her marriage license - again he was confused. He didn't know if he could accept it because nothing on it said what name Mom planned to use after her marriage (marriage licenses in Minnesota now ask this - I believe of both parties). The older clerk leaned over, showed him the county seal again and then said "It was issued in 1946 - there was no question about the name."

So the kid finished everything up and took Mom's picture for the id. But then, when she was going to write a check for it, told her that he couldn't accept the check because she didn't have a picture ID (for real). She paid cash.

[angstlessk]

12. that is too funny!!! and sad at the same time...today I wanted to cry..and have not

cried since my mom died.

[tblue37]

34. Contact the ACLU. They might want to use your case to challenge

those provisions in the PATRIOT Act.

Also, contact Gloria Allred. She is a CA attorney who takes cases of disccrimination against women. I bet she would love the publciity a case like this could bring. (Such celebrity lawyers often take cases for their publciity value, even if the clinet can't pay.)

[valerief]

17. Wow. What a story. nt

[dflprincess]

21. We still laugh about it

especially not being able to take her check.

If the poor clerk had been a jerk it would have been annoying, but he was very polite and was just trying to do his job correctly.

[rucky]

11. Just put your maiden name down as Lucy Stoner

and let them figure it out.

okay that wasn't helpful, but this is a bunch of bullshit they're putting you through.

[angstlessk]

14. It is bullshit..and I have called my rep...but she has not gotten back

I called MI and they put me on terminal hold...but said THEY would give an extension and I should find out if VA would give me an extension on my license...called VA..NO..they do not give extensions..they give you 30 days to establish your new residence..good thing I had my light bill!!!

I spent the 30 days VA gave me to get my birth certificate and then (since I need that ) to get my social security card...thought I was ready to go...

[valerief]

13. If only we had a Congress that would give us the Equal Rights Amendment. Remember how they

killed that?

[angstlessk]

15. ah, yes..in fact I was burning bras when I was taking my husbands last name that has come to burn my

ass 40 years latter!

[angstlessk]

16. oops dupe...

ass 40 years latter!

[dsc]

22. No they didn't the states did

Congress approved the amendment but they were one state short of ratificiation.

[valerief]

43. Oops, whatever. Those legislators (state in this instance) killed it.

Thanks.

[satya]

26. My mother was afraid the ERA would lead to unisex restrooms.

And now those "Family" restrooms are popping up all over the place anyway! What is this world coming to ...

[BlooInBloo]

28. I thought it passed Congress, and the states themselves killed it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

19. Someone lied to you 'way back when -

no state - except Hawaii - ever made it mandatory for a woman to take her husband's name when they married.

Signing a marriage certificate changes nothing.

Your choice to take his name is purely voluntary, and anyone who tried to tell you differently was lying to you.

I discovered this when I married in Ohio in 1969 - I asked at the courthouse when we applied for our license what I had to do about changing my name, and found out it was purely up to me.

So, all of this nonsense could have been avoided if you hadn't been sold a bill of goods by someone............

[angstlessk]

27. however..if you did NOT want to take his name..you had to declare it..because

the marriage powers changed your social security card...they did it automatically...I never had to change my name EVER except my last marriage...seems I had to personally change it...the only one not a church marriage...but just guessing?

On Edit: never wanted to change it..but when I wanted my social security card to get my license it was deemed necessary to prove why my name changed from my last marriage to the latest...that was 5 years ago. After 25 years of using my current name...and paying the IRS for years under my current name. IT IS THE PATRIOT ACT..SUDDENLY WOMEN ARE TERRORIST THREATS CAUSE THEIR LAST NAMES DO NOT MATCH THE DATA BASE!

[Cybergata]

29. I kept my name in the mid 70s

. . . and my social security never changed. My University Alumni Association was the only place that changed my name to my former husband's name. They were the only ones whom I was forced to write to ask to please recognize my right to keep one of the first gifts I was given, my name.

If this is result of the Patriot Act I'm appalled. There is a lot of wording that was placed in the Patriot Acts that is very scary in just how it might be applied. I think that anyone interested in their rights read through the Acts just to be aware of the possible consequences that could arise because the documents basically crapped on the Bill of Rights.

[angstlessk]

30. I never visited a Social Security office since I received my first card

but my name was changed at each marriage...via the church?..the only marriage not changed was through city hall? I did need to get a new drivers license..but my social security name was changed automatically

[Tangerine LaBamba]

38. I can't, for the life of me,

understand how this happened.

No church can change your name on your Social Security account. Only you can do it.

This is a real puzzlement. Legally, it's impossible......................

[csziggy]

35. Yes, I got married in 1977 and refused to change my name

I was told that all I had to do was to keep using the name I wished to use and try to not use the "married" name.

The only major problem I had was when the moron accountant we used the first year refused to let me be listed on our tax return as "Head of Household" even though I had filled out the forms that way. Then he switched our names, did not switch our Social Security numbers, and forgot to indicate that I had retained my name.

So we got nasty letters from the IRS about the incorrect SSNs and from the Social Security Administration wanting to know why I had not notified them of my name change. It took me two years to get it straightened out and I believe that screw up was why we were audited four years in a row.

The only other problems I had were with friends of my parents who did not understand the non-name change and gave us checks or gift certificates made out to my "married" name. And my Dad who insists for complete coverage and thoroughness to use both names on all legal documents. I still do not sign with that name, though, unless I am forced to - and then I sign the "married" name, followed by my *real* name.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

37. No one knew it was optional -

isn't that something? That it was so accepted, it was seen as mandatory, when, in fact, it wasn't - except in Hawaii.

I opted for a hyphenated last name, mine and his. It made a pleasing combination, too. But back then, there was no way anyone could handle a last name with a hyphen (they seemed to do all right in the UK and other countries where these names were routine, but no one wanted to talk about that), so I got my law school grades addressed to "Tangerine LaBamba Jones," when, in fact, my name was "Tangerine LaBamba-Jones."

My best friend did the same thing when she got married - the day Ford pardoned Nixon! - and she ran into the same problems, but, through the years, the rest of the country caught up to us. I was so proud of her, me, her matron(!) of honor, both of us in the middle of law school exams.

And when she's sworn in as President Obama's new Ambassador the The Kingdom Of The Netherlands, I'm going to be there, so proud of our new representative abroad with the fine, hyphenated last name........................

[csziggy]

41. My sister that got married in 1972 thought about not changing her name or changing both names

But since the combination would have been "Fright" they opted not to do that. She did change her name, and I think she regretted it. We had talked about it so I was ready when I got married. If I had wanted children I probably would have changed my name to make it simpler for the kids.

I just could not see changing - I like my name, I'm used to it and my monogram is aWe - pretty cool! Besides, my husband is happy to be called "Mr. Right" sometimes. ;)

I have an online friend who is Welsh - his last name is "wyn Griffith" and that causes him no end of problems in this country. He's gotten somewhat used to it since he has been in this country off and on since he was sent here during WWII with other children to keep them from German bombs. But it never stops - every week he has another difficulty of some sort.

I'll have to watch for your friend - that is so impressive!

[Control-Z]

42. My only question

is when does one stop/alter hyphenating? - when (if ever) does a couple drop one of the first hyphenated last names to either give it to their offspring or to make the next name combination of the marrying offspring less complicated? Smith-Adams marries Jones-Hamilton. What name does he/she/they take? Do they become Smith-Adams-Jones-Hamilton? And does the woman's husband take the same name? And then, what about their kids?

I guess it would not be as much a problem if only one last name was assigned the offspring. Smith-Adams gives the kid either Smith or Adams. But, frankly, I would want my children to take either both names hyphenated, or only mine (the mother). After all, I feel my parenthood is a bit more intimate than their father's - because of gestation (if for no other reason). There aren't all that many fathers (in my experience) who even want to claim the closeness and bond of motherhood, (though usually they possess the ego to believe their name should be carried on indefinitely).

So where and with whom does the name get changed/adjusted? Three generations and the last names would be ridiculously long and confusing.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

44. That's a good question -

our children took their father's name, plain and simple. Married, the girls kept their names, and that boy, well, he's fine, too. His wife kept her name.

It's choice, that's all. I was never interested in burdening the children with my surname(s), but each of our girls gave one of the kids my "maiden" name as their middle name, which touched me deeply........................

[Berry Cool]

49. Exactly. If it is women's business if they want to take their husbands's names,

it is also their business how they name their children if they choose not to. It's not anyone else's business to worry for them about it and imply the ensuing problems will be so unsolveable that they owe it to the world to just shut up and make things simple by taking their husband's name and having their kids take it too.

[Control-Z]

58. Who implied that the ensuing problems

would be unsolvable? I simply made an honest observation about some of the problems/confusion that would arise from using less traditional naming conventions. I'm pretty sure you knew I wasn't suggesting anyone shut up.

[Berry Cool]

48. My understanding was that it was optional everywhere but Hawaii for a long time

but not having had any personal experience with that, I didn't comment on it.

Just curious: why is it that so many women choose to hyphenate their last names by adding their husband's, but men don't do the same by adding their wife's?

It's still unequal.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

56. I know a few couples who

changed their nameS, and became a hyphenated couple. But only a few.

In our case, my poor husband was perfectly willing to do so if my original name hadn't been so, shall we say, loaded. It's quite a name, and he was man enough to admit that he didn't want to have to handle that burden - even though it's a very good one. I understood.

And his name gives me anonymity, which I like.

So, ultimately, each couple is free to make whatever they want out of names. It's just unfortunate that women, for so long, and without realizing what freedom they had, were corralled into taking their husband's names. The time of "Mr and Mrs John Smith" will probably never die, but it surely has faded, and, for one, like that.......................................

[Tangerine LaBamba]

57. dupe - delete

[orleans]

20. this is the exact reason i am so against marriage!

...

actually, that is not the reason, however, i'm sorry you have to go through all this bullshit

[satya]

25. I sent you a PM which I hope will help. nt

[Strong Atheist]

31. An idea on last names. Everyone keep their own last name when married, and

the kids get it based on sex. The girls get the moms' last name, the boys get the dads' last name. Seems fair...


For glbt couples, I guess you would have to kickbox (I heard that from some movie quote)... :hide:

[Berry Cool]

50. I have oftentimes thought that is a very sensible solution for many couples.

But whatever they do, it's up to them.

Obviously, one can't hyphenate into infinity. But really, the problem of what to name the children of people with two different surnames is NOT so insurmountable as to make such a situation impossible.

[Strong Atheist]

59. Agreed...

:toast:

[MadMaddie]

32. Once again thank the Repuglicans for "Unintended consequences".

They never think anything through for petes sake.

I am really sorry that you have to go through this mess.

[Greyhound]

53. Er, The Patriot Act passed with overwhelming "bi-partisan" support.

Russ Feingold was the only Senator to vote against it. I don't remember the exact House vote, but it was overwhelming as well.

Corporate politicians are always anxious to take away your liberty, and their party affiliation has nothing to do with it.

[Quantess]

33. All these posts saying that the solution is for women to keep their last name

are not being very helpful, no offense. There are valid reasons why a woman would change her name when marrying, or a man changing his last name to match his wife's, for that matter.

[Berry Cool]

52. All I'm saying is, I want to know why a woman would change her name if a man would not.

Sure, he might have a reason for wanting to change his name to hers. But that's the thing: everyone expects him to have a damn good reason if he wants to change his name to hers, because no one expects him to do that. She, on the other hand, has to have a damn good reason NOT to change her name to his, as far as society is concerned, because everyone expects her to do that.

I don't get that. It's not equitable.

[Romulox]

54. I think it has its origin as a quid pro quo relating to the support and identifying of offspring.

In other words, in exchange for a pledge of support for potential offspring on the part of the male, the female is asked to take a name that marks potential offspring as those of the male partner. The reason for the almost universal "inequity" in this situation is that a woman need no proof of her genetic relationship to her children, but this is a source of doubt for the male partner. The practice of taking the husbands name is meant, to my mind, as an assurance of paternity of his children.

Whether this quid pro quo should still stand is up for debate, but this is obviously the origin of the practice, to my mind.

[Orsino]

55. Happened to Atlanta's Mayor Shirley Franklin, too...

...as well as to my wife.