I Think I Can Prove the Officer Lied!

[Don1]

This is about the Professor Gates vs Officer Crowley vs Lucia Whalen controversy. We have three accounts, but then we also have recordings of dispath etc from the police.

Lucia Whalen says she never had an elaborate conversation with the officer, but the officer claims she told him "two black men with backpacks" etc. The officer also claims that Whalen said something about them barging the door down which is what caused her suspicion. Giving the officer the benefit of the doubt by shortening the conversation as much as possible, first, we would have a conversation like this:

Diaptcher: "The caller doesn't live there in the residence."
Whalen: "Excuse me, officer."
Crowley turns around .
Whalen: "I am the one who called. I saw two black men with backpacks on the porch. I got suspicious when I saw one of them wedging his shoulder into the door."
Crowley: Wait there for more police.
Crowley turns back to door again and notices Gates in foyer .
Crowley: "Would you step outside to speak?"
Gates: "No I will not."
Gates: "Who are you?"
Crowley: "Sergeant Crowley of the Cambridge Police, investigating a report of a break-in in progress."
Gates: "Why, because I'm black?"
Crowley: "Is there anyone else in there with you?"
Gates: "That's none of your damn business, you racist cop!"
Crowley: "Look, the only reason I am here is because someone called the police and that person is outside now."

Here is the important part: We can try to validate the officer's account by looking at the recording and the time it all took in between when he first radioed in and then when he next radioed in. So the dispatcher tells him the witness does not live there. After his confrontation with Gates he radios in to the dispatcher about Gates being uncooperative.

So there is about a 27 second gap between radio calls in the recording where this whole dialogue can occur. As an experiment, I read it aloud. It is important to read it out loud, as opposed to reading it to yourself...Read it like it would have been said. Try it yourself. I did it in 40 seconds.

How many seconds does it take you to speak out loud the dialogue as if it were being played out in reality (and add 1 second for Crowley turning around twice)?

Now remember, I shortened the conversation as much as I could by using smaller words and shortening ideas into simple phrases...

[NJmaverick]

1. I could be mistaken

but are not all the parties involved and President Obama all trying to move on?

[merh]

7. Oh come on, if folks want to discuss it, what's it to ya.

You can just use "Hide a Thread" - I hate it when folks tell others what is worthy of discussion.

Crowley filed a false report, now he will be out there as "An Officer & a Gentlemen" as I have already seen the right refer to him.

I didn't like the "diplomacy" idea for just that reason. The cop violated Gates rights and will do it again. Why, because he is a cop and expects due deference when he is in uniform.

For far too many, when you give 'em the gun, the badge, the shiney toys and bells and whistles, they transform.

[NJmaverick]

13. Well our Democratic President made a very reasonable request

I see little reason not to honor it. However it certainly is the right of any DUer to not respect or honor that request, just as it is my right to post my opinion on that failure.

[Don1]

17. yes.

You are free to have an opinion.

IMO, an officer lying like this should be fired.

[merh]

23. He didn't aske me anything.

I've made some pretty reasonable requests of him that he has ignored, you know like trying torturers and bush folks for their war crimes, releasing the political prisoners, etc.

So I suppose if keeping a tally, he owes me

[NJmaverick]

27. I have always found in the general leadership structure

that the leader tends to and is expected to be the one making more requests. Have you have found a system that works the other way around?

[merh]

30. He works for me - where they hell do you think his salary

comes from?

[NJmaverick]

31. He works for me

and a couple of hundred more million people. How do you suppose it is possible to fullfill all those requests? What does he do with the conflicting requests?

[merh]

32. He promised to uphold the laws

It's not like I'm asking him to do anything he didn't promise to do and besides, I'm not the only one asking him to do this.

[Don1]

8. sure

but again, it is important that if he doctored his report, that it is known. Right?

[NJmaverick]

14. You admit to doctoring your transcript

so I don't think you are going to succeed in your mission

[Don1]

16. huh?

The conversation is a reconstuction based on the police report and conservatively putting in the words to be brief.

The police report can't be correct simply by testing whether it is likely to have a conversation as the officer describes in the time allotted.

[NJmaverick]

22. Your post wouldn't pass the legal standard that the police report

you are critiquing is required to meet. I have experience writing similar reports as an EMT (my reports are also considered legal documents). One does not report transepts like you did, unless one heard such a transcript. Your post would not be even the most basic standard. There is no such thing as reconstructed conversations.

[Solomon]

26. The police report itself doesn't meet the legal standard.

That's why the charge was dismissed.

He clearly lied in his report and I find it ironic that nobody is blaming the cop for the hell the witness has been taken because he lied about what she said.

[Armchair QB]

2. Who cares anymore. Let it go

Let the freepers whine about this story.

[Don1]

4. we should ignore it?

So if he doctored his report, you think having a guy like that on the force should be ignored?

[Armchair QB]

34. Well, if you're going to attack the white officer for what's in his report

why not attack the black officer who was there and witnessed what went on. Either they're both racists who were out profiling Gates, or it's a non issue that is best left in the past.
Everyone involved is trying to move on.

[Don1]

40. this is incorrect

You do not seem to have read the police report. The other officer was at the scene later than the beginning of Crowley's account...the part under discussion here.

Yes, he can come on the tail end of something and see that Gates is upset and misconstrue that. There is no reason to attack him for it because he did not lie.

[Armchair QB]

41. I've seen and heard his statements. I think it's as ridiculous to try

and paint the police officer as a lying racist when there's no evidence in his career that he is one. Different people can see and hear the same things and have different stories. It doesn't make them all liars.
I think dwelling on this is as ridiculous as RWers telling people the president is a racist.

let it go

[Don1]

43. I think Cambridge needs to know about a lying cop

If the cop lied, then the city should not employ him to work with people.

He doesn't have to be a racist either to be a liar.

[Armchair QB]

44. Good Luck with that

You're not going to be able to prove he lied about anything. It's easily chalked up to a mistake, they'll look at this records and that'll be the outcome.

You're wasting your time and energy over a story that should have died a week ago.

[Don1]

45. he mistakenly made up a conversation with a witness

about race of the individual and not asking for any other physical description?

seriously?

[blondeatlast]

20. It's a discussion board--who are you to dictate what is discussed? Board nanies are

not generally well-received.

[Armchair QB]

35. Everyone is moving on. The officer, the president, the professor

I don't see how dwelling on something that could probably be chalked up to a mistake and not some devious attempt to cover one's ass serves anyone.
There was a black officer on the scene, either he was part of the conspiracy to "get the darkie" or he wasn't.

[blondeatlast]

39. If DUers want to dicuss it, DUers should discuss it.

There's this "hide thread" thing--and I personally like the scroll wheel. very effective.

[conscious evolution]

3. I can prove he lied also

Watch the videos of him.
Whenever his lips move he is lying.

[merh]

5. Your made up transcript of the conversation contains words that

were not exchanged, doesn't it?

Whalen: "I am the one who called. I saw two black men with backpacks on the porch. I got suspicious when I saw one of them wedging his shoulder into the door."

Whalen said she never said this.

[Don1]

6. yeah

but the officer's report says she said those things. So it can be proven that she is likely correct and he made it up by looking at the time it takes.

[merh]

11. I want to know if Gates' calls to the chief were recorded?

Some departments do have all incoming calls recorded.

And you are right, if this matter were to go to court on the civil rights violations, the time between transmissions and dead air could be used to reflect that Crowley did file a false report.

[havocmom]

12. Suspicion and proof are not the same

Opportunity is not proof.

My god, I hope you are never on a jury.

"...proven that she is likely correct..."? What the fuck does THAT mean? proven/likely? Does not compute.

Want some coffee?

[Don1]

18. it makes sense.

statistical inference. the conversation would have to be extremely retarded and unlikely for it to have occurred.

[havocmom]

25. 'makes sense' & 'statistical infrence' are a far cry from 'proof'

I repeat: I hope to god you don't serve on a jury.

[tuvor]

9. You "think" you can prove the officer lied?

I'm not sure one can prove something as long as one is uncertain that they can prove it.

[Don1]

15. seriously?

I posted it to get feedback. I am convinced but I would like to hear something about the procedure I used. I even asked for more data: how long does it take you to say the conversation?

The transcript is completely constructed from the police report, giving the officer every benefit of doubt...and still it is impossible for the conversation to have occurred like he says.

The witness states she never said those things either.

These two things are enough for a hearing.

[tuvor]

19. You didn't state that you posted this for feedback.

So, yeah, "seriously".

Whatever. You just seem awfully enthusiastic despite basically admitting in your OP that you're somewhat dubious.

I just can't get those two ideas to work together.

Shadow of a doubt, and all that stuff, I suppose.

[bettyellen]

36. the OP directly asked for feeback here: "How many seconds does it take you to speak out loud ...:

[Don1]

46. Why do you think I wrote I _think_ I can prove it?

and why did I ask how long it took you?

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. Yeesh

This is dumb.

[jayfish]

21. Apparently You Haven't Gotten The Memo.

We are a country that moves forward instead of looking back now. Well, unless it has anything to do with he general public.

Jay

[godai]

24. Dragging this on hurts Obama.

He got involved when he shouldn't have and now it seems, no matter what he says or does, the discussions continue. Gates and Crowley have made peace, so, let's move on.

[timeforpeace]

38. Shh, we're have a national dialogue on race as well as a teachable moment. A two-fer as it were.

[mbee]

28. My suspicion is that it is a mixture of racism and

elitism and I hate both! If you live in a certain kind of neighborhood people definitely notice if you aren't where you belong. Everything is divided by class in the country and that is where the bigger problem lies. That isn't going to change because the elite don't want to mingle with the rest of us! If this incident was in an ordinary neighborhood I ask myself would I have seen this on the news? Probably no! I definitely think Obama tries to take the high road, but I don't know that the general rules of how our country is run will ever really change.

[Romulox]

29. What point in controversy does proving this "lie" make either less or more likely?

In other words, what is the relevance of the alleged lies in the police report? If we take everything you say as true, what follows?

[Don1]

42. He made it up.

His behavior toward Gates was assuming and authoritarian. He wanted to justify that by saying he had probable cause for such behaviors. Technically, Gates did not match the physical description of any individual in the 911 call. So Crowley fabricated some probable cause for his behavior that was against police protocol.

He startled Gates when he showed up in front of the glass pane of Gates's door, blurting out something like "Will you come outside to speak with me?" No introducing himself...no explaining why he was there...no knocking on the door. It made Gates's neck hair stand up, according to Gates.

Gates was correct to respond, "No I will not." Gates was then next correct to "demand" (the officer's word) to know who he was. The officer makes it seem like Gates was being a trouble-maker. No, the officer was supposed to treat him like a civilian who doesn't match the description of a suspect...

[Cid_B]

33. This hurts my poor brain...

[BlooInBloo]

37. The "let's move on" cop defenders are hilarious. Now that we know Crowley lied...

They can't "move on" fast enough.

It's just no fun for the cop defenders any more.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. Your opinion of President Obama and Professor Gates must be very low.