So my wife went to the dentist...

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

A few days ago she goes to the dentist for a checkup. The previous time she was at the dentist, she had a cavity filled. In the past few months she has complained of pain in that same tooth. Well, during the checkup she mentioned the pain in the previously worked on tooth. After examination the dentist said she needs a root canal and crown. I discovered this over dinner the other night:

Wife - Hey, do we have $300 extra dollars I can have?
Me - :shrug: what for?
Wife - I need a root canal and crown.
Me - did you tell them we have dental and that should be covered?
Wife - Yeah, $300 is the copay.
Me - WTF?!?

My wife questioned the fact that she'd had the tooth worked on before, and such a condition was not present previously. The dentist basically said, yeah, we drilled pretty deep for that cavity and denied that they may have contributed. Now, I have good insurance and other benefits but for someone living paycheck to paycheck $300 is ALOT of money. Especially when I think that the dentist may have contributed to the condition.

It's bullshit that so much of my paycheck goes towards this health plan, and the copays still rape you. I was half tempted to ask her to hold off for awhile, but we got the money together. At this point, I'm thinking I might as well take my befit witholdings and deposit them into my own escrow account. Any proceedrue more serious than that the escrow could handle will bankrupt you with copays anyways.

Sorry for the rant... thanks for listening.
The worst part is I know we don't got it 1/4 as bad as alot of the people insureance companies are fucking over. :(

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. For a root canal and a crown,

three hundred bucks is a real steal. I know that's no consolation to you, but there are people out there who have to have teeth pulled because they can't afford the thousands that such procedures usually cost.

Are you looking to see if the cavity work should be considered a precursor to the root canal? And so that deductible should apply?

I'd make that argument, see where it goes. I'm sure the dentist is going to present a compelling dental reason why it shouldn't.

Give it a shot. Can't hurt.

And good luck..........................

[lapfog_1]

6. I need a root canal

and was quoted $1200. That was 9 months ago. I really need it, but I have no health insurance and no job. $1200 is something that I can't do right now.

[imdjh]

17. You need to shop that one around. That's outrageous.

As with all things, the best deals are rarely found in one place.

For example, the scuzbag dental chain that I just had a flare up with, isn't bad when it comes to crowns. Walk in off the street and you can get a crown for about $600 complete. I would never, NEVER let these people do a root canal though.

The last root canal I had done at an endodentist was a couple of years ago, but it was about $500.

Jesus, it only takes a few minutes once the anesthetic has taken effect. A good endodentist, many of them ONLY do root canals, can knock one out in a hafl hour or less. How much do these people expect to make? A thousand a pop is too high. That's Rodeo Drive prices.

[lapfog_1]

29. I did.

but the roots of the tooth are curved in a difficult way. My regular dentist was going to do it for $800 but after looking at the xray, he backed out. I didn't have $800 either, but he would let me make payments for a year or however long.

The rest of them needed payment up front (since no insurance). $1200 was near the low.

I could go to Mexico and get it done (I've had other work done there for 1/3 price of US)... but the dentist there also doesn't have the training to deal with my tooth.

[Dorian Gray]

83. If you live near a dental

school, you can have it done for a fraction of the price. Here in NYC, there are quite a few dental schools where you can partake of such a deal.

I had a root canal and a crown put on last year, and the total was $2000. I finally paid it off on my credit cards a few months ago. If I need a procedure like that again, I'm going to look into the NYU dental school instead.

[izquierdista]

7. Are you accusing Mexicans of stealing?

Because that's what a root canal costs (on average) in Mexico. You can get excellent dental work done there, I know from experience.

[Bobbieo]

26. I have an excerllent dentist in Algodones, Baja CA - Dr, Jorge Cortes

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

64. I went to Algodones, some years ago.

I used to get my dental work done at the Dental School on Parnassus in San Francisco, but when I needed a crown replaced (two actually) I went there because an Uncle of mine had. Ended up having one of the teeth pulled and the other crown replaced. Just walk across the border. It is near Yuma, but on the California side of the Colorado river. The Indian reservation has a parking lot and camp ground on the Calif. side. You paid $2 to park and could get your money refunded at the Casino. I used it to buy breakfast. The cost was half what the dental school wanted.

[notadmblnd]

49. How did you get there with what the poster wrote?

Sometimes I swear people are just looking for a reason to be angry and go off on a rant. I saw nothing in the post about Mexicans.

The poster used a common phrase to say the OP was getting a deal. Another example would be:

cheaper than dirt or dirt cheap (which in case you don't know, is mostly free)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

56. Aw, you're swell -

I thought that was kind of nuts, but, hey, Bill Withers said it best:

(Turn up the volume - it's that good............)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3hBYTkI-sE

[izquierdista]

62. JK

Cost of a root canal in Mexico = a "steal" = $300. No offense taken. I also go to Mexico for 'steals' on other things: haircuts, prescription drugs, car repairs, etc.

[Demoiselle]

53. T. LaBamba has made several good points...

The cavity work that was done earlier might have exposed the sensitivity of the teeth....A root canal is really the only thing that will get rid of that sensitivity.
A while ago I had two crowns put on extensively filled teeth. The crowns had to be removed almost immediately because the work that was done made my teeth hurt so much..Turned out that the teeth were really too far gone NOT to have root canal work done. This was an after-the-fact diagnosis.
So two root canals and replacement crowns later all at large expense....I'm ok.
I have dental insurance too...but it didn't cover very much...Three hundred bucks sounds like a pretty good deal to me. The problem is that my dental insurance covers the things my "regular" dentist does...but he doesn't do root canals.
So the root canal expert wasn't covered by my insurance. I have a feeling that this is pretty commonplace in the dental trade.
Anyway. I have to tell you I'd be thrilled by a $300 co-pay.
I, too, wish you luck.

[alcibiades_mystery]

88. I had a tooth pulled when I was 21 because I couldn't afford the root canal

Way in the back, and haven't really missed it, but yeah. The guy quoted me a price, then the price for pulling it. I was uncovered and waiting tables. Pull the fucking thing, I said. It was something like $1200 for the root canal.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

2. I designed the Web Site for my dentist and I can't afford my regularly scheduled checkup

I'm about 6 months behind schedule because I just don't have the money and am uninsured.

The last time I called to reschedule the receptionist got pissed off at me and said "CALL ME WHEN YOU HAVE THE MONEY" and I thought "THIS woman needs to TOSS MY SALAD."

:grr:

[bertman]

52. You can borrow my power drill and 1/4-inch bit, if you want to give that shithead

her FREE ROOT CANAL.

[Diane R]

98. Why don't you get straight A's through H.S and college, eat top ramen and leave dental school owing.

....owing nearly a quarter a million in loans, then fix your own teeth?

Dentists work hard to learn their professions, and they don't owe you free services.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Count your blessings

My co-pay for a root canal is $450 and for a crown is $200.

[dana_b]

4. rant away!

it is not easy to come up with the $$ right away. Dental insurance is usually shit anyway. I just found out the last time I went to the dentist that Delta Dental is now only going to cover the exam once a year instead of twice a year. The cleaning is still covered twice a year. WTF? Do I just tell the dentist - "alright, clean away but don't look at my teeth. I can't afford the exam"?

[MADem]

22. Tell the dentist to follow the plan because you can't afford to do otherwise.

Is your dentist also your hygenist? That would actually be a good thing because the dentist would be looking whilst cleaning...

[dana_b]

23. not normally.

the dental tech usually does the cleaning after the dentist does the exam. But you are right, I will ask them to follow the plan. Maybe then the dentists will start complaining to Delta about this.

[MADem]

55. And if not, maybe the dentist will "comp" you the exam.

After all, if he finds something wrong, it's a payday for him...!

[tammywammy]

77. Strange thing for your company to cut in sevices.

I just signed up with Delta Dental and I get exams and cleanings twice a year. I've never heard of two exams a year not being covered, strange thing for your company to cut back on.

[sinkingfeeling]

5. I finally got a detailed billing for my 33 IMRT radiation treatments. Price was a mere $86,442.00!

So far, my cancer has cost around $126,000. I've paid out over $8,000 in co-pays, deductibles, and such.

[Riley18]

8. I paid over $1,000 copay for a root canal and then more for the crown.

My daughter's braces cost me at least $5,000 because the insurance only paid $1,000. They even tried to get out of paying that amount.

[dana_b]

25. wow - only $1000?

don't do you any favors, eh? highway robbery.

[madinmaryland]

35. Yeah. Most dental plans have a lifetime cap for orthodontia of $1K to $1.5K

That covers maybe a third (if you're lucky) of the price of braces.

[proud patriot]

9. I have dental coverage

haven't been able to get in there because I'm too scared of the bills.

I'm aready in debt from copays for my son and his hospitalizations .

[elehhhhna]

10. they'll take payments and --

I just did a 550 copay for just a crown. In fairness, if they "drilled pretty deep" for her filling, the decay may have been close to the root, and they don't do this on purpose...a crappy dentist who needs to make a boat payment would just look at the xray & say "Yep! Root canal!".


We also have 2 gals in braces $4-5K each and hubs is getting all sorts of fun tests. It's crazy.

[TheDebbieDee]

11. I needed a root canal around this time last year...........

I only had about $700 in annual benefits remaining with Delta Dental and the root canal costed about $1350. I had to put last year's $600 stimulus/tax rebate toward the root canal.

I would have much rather banked the rebate for a rainy day, but I was glad I had that cash to help out with root canal.

[DebbieCDC]

12. I have to have a root canal and TWO crowns

And WITH dental insurance my share is $2,000!!!!

I told them maybe next year.

[MADem]

27. You might want to go have one tooth done now, and one next year.

See if they can stretch it out, or make it work between years (e.g. root canal at end of one year, crown at start of other year). Unless you have a dental plan where your "total" accrues--it usually doesn't. It's either use it or lose it.

[ThomWV]

13. Its that way or worse with every medical and dental procedure

I have the same insurance as the President but if I were to get cancer tomorrow we'd be in the poorhouse within a year.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. A few comments about dental insurance and your wife's abscess .....

We have not carried dental insurance for well over 15 years. We switched insurance carriers many years ago and have been with the same people since. One of the reasons we went with them is that, when they were selling us, they actually talked us OUT of buying dental insurance. They advised that we self-insure by simply putting our annual premiums in a segregated account. We were at a higher risk of loss early on, but over time it has built up quite nicely. Anyway ..... that worked for us and for our particular situation. But the big take-away is that dental insurance is a bad deal for the insured.

Now to the abscess ...... heavy work on a tooth can cause it, no matter how careful the dentist. Could the previous work have been the cause of your wife's abscess? In the broadest sense, yes, probably. Is the dentist somehow at fault and the direct cause of it? Likely not. I defer, however, to medical pros to answer this with more authority.

[bkkyosemite]

15. My husband went yesterday for a root canal. Our lousy dental pays 50% and our part is $629.30 do we

have it no. So they have to take payments and they are...still can't really afford the payments ....We need dental coverage, vision and the like they are all for our health.

[rox63]

16. I was told I needed $3K worth of dental work last year

And my dental insurance was only going to pay 50%. So I've put it on hold for now. :(

[Not Me]

18. I have lousy dental insurance, but great teeth

so I guess I should count my blessings.

[MADem]

84. You should see if you can't get it done piecemeal, if it is more than one tooth.

A lot of dental plans only give you a max amount of coverage per year in terms of dollars, and once you go over that amount you pay. If it's more than one tooth maybe you could do it one tooth at a time....

[Mika]

19. It is the insurance companies forcing dental restorations to be outsourced to China.

The industry leaders in high quality dental restorations, the US dental laboratory manufacturing sector, is being literally killed off by low paying insurance companies. They are forcing dentists to use outsourcing dental companies that ship the prosthetic work to Chinese sweatshop labs. There are cases of toxic contamination of some of these Chinese made restorations (and unlike US labs, Chinese labs are subject to NO quality nor health regulations).

Yet another example of how American race-to-the-bottom economics is killing off America - and Americans scurrying to get a piece of the pie at a discount

Good luck your spouse with a root canal and a crown for only $300 copay - the insurance plan(s) is/are probably reimbursing by about the same amount.

The lab fee to the DDS alone for a high quality porcelain crown is between $150-$300 (depending on the gold content in the dental alloy). High quality dentistry is highly unlikely at the fee levels set by the insurance companies.

That's why I got out of the insurance biz at my practice. I believe it is more cost effective to the patient to save their own money and direct pay a doctor (who will be willing to work out a decent deal IF they are getting paid by the patient, instead of fighting with an insurance company trying for months to get paid).

If my patients want to use their insurance - fine. As long as they pay me, then they can file the paperwork and fight the insurance company. Its their insurance not mine. They can fight for what they think they are paying for - to keep my patient costs down I can't afford to pay more full time staff just to fight insurance companies.

Dr Mika

:hi:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

20. Man... after reading some replys

I'm not sure whether to be relieved we "only" owe $300 (and whatever else the insurance company decides they also aren't covering) or pissed off we're getting pissed on by insurance. I think I'm both at the moment.

[MADem]

21. If it is a "modern" dentist, that crown will look just like a real tooth.

It won't be a hideous gold thing or a silve mess. They do cost the earth, and three hundred IS a steal.

They don't have 'dental' in national health countries, either....it's the last frontier. If that's any consolation....

Sometimes, they make you wait a year between having a tooth worked on and doing anything else to it, with some plans.

In that case, she'd have to go the "extraction and implant" route (Ka-fucking-CHING on that baby).

Make your wife floss every day! And you do the same!!!

[Mika]

24. Ha ha. Funny. And sad myth.

If you could see the debilitating abortions for crowns I have removed from patients you wouldn't be so pollyanna about this.

Also, you can't judge a book by its cover. Meaning that there are labs that make "good looking" crowns that are made out of dogshit materials.

A big issue relating to this is the lack of standards for foreign made restorations. None. While US dental labs are subject to certification and rigorous annual inspections.

Sadly, many dentists don't know (and some don't care, as long as its cheap) where their crowns are being made. There are US based dental "labs" that are only shipping centers of operations for China labs. Many labs that used to have their own certified lab techs have laid the tech off and are outsourcing to China without the dentists even knowing that they have done so.

America is truly the land of "buyer beware". IOW, if you don't educate yourself you're fucked, and even if you do educate yourself - you're fucked because wages are so low. making good US made dentistry unaffordable.

[MADem]

37. Well gee whiz. You didn't ask where I got my crown, now did you?

I got it in the good old USA. Now, if US dental labs are subject to rigorous inspection, how can they get away with sending stuff offshore?

In any event, if they sent that sumbitch to China to be made, the FedEx works REAL good, because the turnaround was pretty quick.

What's your point, really? What are you saying? That only "experts" should go have dental work done? That everyone who gets a crown is likely screwed by The Mendacious Chinese and their Inferior Fake Teeth?

Ha ha funny? What are you saying? You're saying no matter what we do, we're "fucked"--gee, let's all gum it like granny and gramps, then! Give up, why bother, we're all gonna die!!!!!!!

Someone needs a crown, and you're yelling about standards. While an interesting topic, I don't see how it helps the OP work out his issues.

Why not quiz the OP about the quality of his wife's dentist, rather than scream at me about nasty Chinese labs?

[Mika]

44. Chinese sweatshop labs operate 24/7. With Fedex/UPS turnaround is 4 days.

I get the lab mailers/flyers at my office every day offering "finished' prosthetics at a lower fee than the cost of manufacturing here.


A dental lab that manufactures on site is subject to certifications and inspections.

A dental outsourcing center is not. (You can thank the 1997 repug congress for that.)


What can brown do for you? Ship your job to China - overnight.

[MADem]

51. Those US labs oughta hire a few Chinese immigrants. Get 'em to

defect on a trade exchange. They'd probably work for less, like Indian IT personnel--only they'd be on the old "path to citizenship."

You do realize that griping isn't going to change the reality, I trust. The parade IS passing you by.

You'll need to work on the Congress end, or the US dental labs will have to get more competitive. Same with the dentists. Otherwise, they'll continue to lose trade. I know folks who go to Brazil for their dental work in the winter--they combine it with a holiday.

[moc]

36. As an FYI, the "hideous gold thing" or "silve mess" as you call them, are the better route to go

than a porcelain covered crown, depending on the placement of the tooth to be crowned. (No, I'm not a dentist, but considering I have 9-10 crowns in my mouth, I've been around the block enough times on this one.)

A lot of private dentists like to push the all porcelain jobs because they cost more and your co-pay will be higher. However, as I had it explained to me at the dental school (where I resorted for care when I needed 3-4 crowns in a single year), the porcelain ones aren't good in the back because they aren't made to endure the kind of physical forces experienced by the back teeth during chewing. They can do a porcelain outer face if the tooth is closer to the front so it looks like your other teeth from the outside, but it's better if the chewing surface isn't porcelain.

[MADem]

41. Well, I have one of those "all white" ones, and it's holding up fine.

It's not all the way at the back, though. Looks damn good, too!

I don't have a bunch of crowns though--just the one.

[moc]

43. That's fine; doesn't mean it has the longevity of a all gold crown.

And, as you said, it's not one of your back teeth. For your molars, gold crowns have the greatest longevity.

[MADem]

45. Doesn't have the hot/cold sensitivity, either--which is an issue for me.

The ADA is pretty upfront about the "trade off"--they even have a chart: http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/topics/materials/indirect.asp

[moc]

65. I have 3 gold crowns and 1 porcelain fused to metal, and I've had no problem with cold sensitivity.

Of course, one of those has a root canal, so the cold sensitivity issue is moot for that one.

[SoCalDem]

28. Got plans to visit Mexico?

I know you can get dental work done there for a lot less, and combine it with a little R & R too:)_

[Mika]

31. Great idea. Let's all race to the bottom.

If we all run to Mexico then we can kill off all US dentistry & dental mufacturing. YAY!

[SoCalDem]

32. If people cannot afford thousands of dollars and end up

going without, the US dentists are not getting that money anyway:shrug:

[Mika]

39. Logical. But will result in the destruction of yet another sector of manufacturing.

The solution is single payer health care, but more important - we need to raise wages so Americans can afford the basic health care we all need. As well as getting back to a trade and tariff system that made America great.

[SoCalDem]

47. If we had single payer, employees would start to get real raises again

but I'm not holding my breath on that one :grr:

I have put off dental work for years..and we have nearly 100% coverage...why? dental phobia. I can tolerate the occasional pain, but just the thought of a dentist touching a tooth with that metal pick thingie, gives me the shakes:(

[MADem]

91. WOW, 100 percent coverage? How lucky you are!!! Go--have them knock you out

or give you some happy gas or something.

[Erin Elizabeth]

115. Holy hell.

If I had 100% coverage, I'd be in that chair right now getting that right side molar fixed up, getting a new crown to replace my oldest one that is now having problems, and I'd be getting that implant to fill in the totally empty spot I have on the left bottom side, one up from the back.

I could also list the stuff my husband needs done. We've spent all available monies on our daughter's braces and it'll be a while before we can afford anything for our own teeth.

[MADem]

48. Maybe dentists could ... er... lower their prices? Or not say "Come back when you have money"

like a poster upthread noted? Maybe take payments?

It's a two-way street, IMO.

You pay for dental in UK and Canada, too.

[Mika]

70. I hope that comment is a generalization, and not directed at me.

Hopefully you read upthread that I have a different M.O. for billing than most practitioners. I have a non-standard practice that ranges from overall wellness to surgery to prosthetics (much of which I fabricate myself, as I am a MDT also) . A sliding fee scale based on ability to pay that ranges from extremely expensive to dirt cheap.

I love caring for people and their health, and the sometimes intense challenges of discovery and creativity involved in doing so.

I hate & am saddened that yet another wonderful American profession is being destroyed right under our noses as is happening right now. :( Not so much for me, but for the future.

[MADem]

85. Of course it is.

If you have been reading this thread, as I have (with some care), you'll notice that several people are posting that they cannot afford needed care, first, and are either just not doing it or saying that they'll wait, and one person posted that the dental office said, and I quote "Come back when you have money."

If the shoe does not fit you, don't strip down to your socks and try to cram your toes in it. It's obvious that you are different from your frankly, profit-centered, peers.

It may be sad that dentistry is being "destroyed," but there aren't enough rich people to support your customer base. That is a generic "your"-- to be clear. Without these "other" options you are hating, we'd be a society of wealthy people with pearly whites, upper middle class people with good insurance with pearly whites, and lower middle class people looking like stereotypical Englishmen from the mid sixties, and poor people with rotted stumps.

See, if more dentists WERE like you, we wouldn't be in this fix. But they aren't. Your peers in the world of dentistry are "give me my money NOW" types, who prioritize profit, caring less about helping people than their profit margin, and valuing their clients based on their ability to PAY. They want to be RICH. They buy fancy equipment, rent in pricey locales, hire lots of eye-candy office workers who do the billing and keep the appointments, and run from chair to chair all day. And then make millions.

THAT is what is driving people to these over-the border/medical tourism alternatives. That is why adults are walking around with crappy teeth in this great nation of ours. Dentists are pricing themselves out of the larger market. They need to find ways to adjust their prices so that people can afford them if they want to keep these customers (I don't think they do, though). Frankly, I have a relative who is a young man, and because his teeth are fucked up (in the way they grew in) he's into the tooth doctors for tens of thousands of dollars, and he is still not done yet. I have an in-law that has a thirty thousand dollar mouth. I see people all over this forum in desperation because they are spending that kind of money on HEALTH care, but in my family, more people get screwed by the dentist than the doctor (because we're medically insured, but not everyone has dental insurance, for what little good it is).

[Mika]

89. Thanks for your comments. A response.

Your peers in the world of dentistry are "give me my money NOW" types, who prioritize profit, caring less about helping people than their profit margin, and valuing their clients based on their ability to PAY. They want to be RICH. They buy fancy equipment, rent in pricey locales, hire lots of eye-candy office workers who do the billing and keep the appointments, and run from chair to chair all day. And then make millions.

Just who are the clients/patients of these practitioners? I don't get it. They suck & don't care but have many chairs filled with patients, but they employ "eye candy", buy fancy equipment rent in pricey locales AND are greedy? WTF.

It's these gross mal-informed generalizations that kick me in the butt.

Look, if they are so greedy then why are they buying expensive "fancy" equipment to treat their patients better? Do you want a manual pedal power belt drive handpiece from the 50's in your mouth? Beware the decrepit and run down office as it indicates that the Dr isn't investing in the best care of the patients but rather hoarding the money for themselves.

I seriously doubt that any practitioner would train or endorse any of their staff to say "come back when you have money". Inexcusable.

I've stated where I stand. We need national single payer health care. We need to normalize wages (because, as I'm sure you agree, a healthy economy w/manufacturing comes from the bottom up: wages). This should be the focus instead of focusing on methods of further gutting US industry and wages.

[MADem]

90. No, NOT generalizations. When I went shopping for a dentist, I visited

nearly a dozen different practices within a fairly short hop of my house.

Guess what? MOST of them were EXACTLY like I described. VERY fancy, modern offices--hot looking receptionists. One or sometimes two dentists, one, or a couple of hygenists, and the dentist running from room to room.

One practice even had TWO entirely separate offices, and they moved the entire staff from one to the other on alternate days, to scoop up a greater percentage of the population. That was a "selling point" -- if you live over here, and work over there, we can accomodate you! Ain't that swell! A couple even had wide screen tee vees with cable over every chair. Another guy had Virtual Reality glasses and headphones, and served drinks (not booze--organic stuff, tea and so on) in the waiting room (that looked like a STAR TREK set). The "organic" guy's office didn't even want to deal with my insurance--I got the "Did you just fart?" look from those guys.

When I'm talking about "equipment," I'm talking about the peripherals, mostly--the flat screen tee vees and the space age furniture and the hyper-jazzy water coolers. I don't have a problem with modern equipment to do the job, at all, though if it's all down to equipment, then individual talent becomes less important--and I don't think that's the case (Ancient History--I had a ninety year old, semi-retired dentist fill a tooth of mine with a manual crank machine--and NO NOVACAINE--when I was a kid. Actually, IIRC, he was repairing a crappily done filling. I was on holiday, and he was a friend of the family, I had a toothache. It took a long time, but it didn't hurt hardly at all--and he warned me, accurately, when it would, and I still have the filling--which suggests that talent triumphs over equipment in some instances).

They make money with high prices and sheer volume. Where else are you going to go? The costs are pretty much the same from practice to practice, the only difference is what kind of insurance they'll take. Actually, most "took" all insurances, but some (MANY, in fact) refused to promise to stay within the caps of my insurance company--ain't THAT special. So, if I went with them, they'd file my claim, but I had to pay extra....or "I" had to do the paperwork...and still pay extra.

You are going to have to ask the despairing poster upthread about the "Come back when you have money" comment. I don't see why the person would lie about something like that--who would even think to make that kind of thing up?

I don't see how single payer is going to help dentistry, frankly. It's apples and oranges. Are you suggesting that the overcharges that people endure for medicine can be diverted to dentistry? I think they'll probably be diverted to higher food or energy costs, first. Why? Because wages are not keeping pace with everyday expenses.

I'd be interested in hearing how much dental care costs in Canada and UK....where they have to pay for their dental work, too. If it's a lot less, than the problem is with the industry here.

Bottom line--complaining about a declining industry, and complaining about the customers looking for cost savings, as if they're the ones doing something "wrong," is not the answer. The industry itself needs to compete, or lose trade to those who will compete. I mean, really--"How DARE you try to find affordable dental care? You HAVE to pay more, otherwise you'll get crap!" is a pretty lousy argument. Any dental care, even that which you aver is "inferior," is surely better than none at all.

[Mika]

92. "I mean, really"

I mean, really--"How DARE you try to find affordable dental care? You HAVE to pay more, otherwise you'll get crap!" is a pretty lousy argument.

:rofl:

Yep. That's my "argument". NOT!

I was suggesting ways to keep costs down, as I have done in my practice (ya'know.. actual experience 'n all).

Also ..

You are going to have to ask the despairing poster upthread about the "Come back when you have money" comment. I don't see why the person would lie about something like that--who would even think to make that kind of thing up?

How did you come up with that horse shit? I made no such claim. I said that I doubt a practitioner would endorse or train staff to say such a thing - however, every now and then we all encounter insensitive employees or coworkers. Hopefully they'll receive proper training or move on.

I think that you simply hate dentists and have generalized your interaction experiences. Sometimes there are cranky, rude, bad tempered patients who twist and mangle conversations too. ;)

Cheers.

[MADem]

94. OK, what IS your argument, then? Do tell. Every time I say anything, you come back with

"Oooooooh, nooooooooooo!!!!" The people who look for dentists based on price point are "bad," because the dentists use Chinese labs, the people who go to Mexico are "bad," or Brazil, because they are "ruining" the industry....I mean really. Porcelain crowns? Oh, the CHINESE horror! No matter what anyone says, you're right there with the "Myth/ Bad/Wrong/Sucks/buyer beware/you're fucked/let's all race to the bottom" routine.

WHAT should people do? TODAY? Every post you make is a COMPLAINT without a solution. The dental lab industry is being killed off, we all are getting shitty care from inferior foreigners, etc., etc., followed up by a halfassed, untrue solution that you propose--single payer will save American Dentistry as You Know It (no, it won't--as SoCalDem and I have noted).

Single payer will not cover dentistry, and as I said, any savings will go towards paying the heat bill and covering rising costs in the face of stagnant wages, not paying the dentist the THOUSANDS that these patients you are dismissing do NOT have.

The other "solution" you have is that you keep costs down by making your patients fight with their insurance companies on their own. That's not something that's easily translatable to the nation at large. Don't expect it to catch on in a big way.

And this takes the cake:

I think that you simply hate dentists and have generalized your interaction experiences.

Thanks for saying that. I now have a pretty good idea where you're coming from, and it ain't a logic-based place. You're an Attack The Messenger expert. That's what I "hate," if ya really wanna know--people who blame others for pointing out the issues, and act falsely affronted, like they invented said issues. :eyes:

I don't "hate" dentists at all--if I did I wouldn't have all my teeth save one as I amble into geezerdom. I do have a problem with people on the internet who claim to be dentists who scold others for trying to get their teeth fixed on a fixed income in what they deem to be an "inferior" fashion. And that IS what you're doing. Every post you make is of the "Oh, no, that's no good" variety. Crappy Chinese labs, evil people who go to Mexico/Brazil and are singlehandedly destroying an American Industry, you're the only one who does it right...I mean, really.

Do you have a solution? A real one, not a pipe dream one? Spit. It. Out. We'd LOVE to hear it! Really!

Look, ***I*** wasn't the one who MADE the "come back when you have money" comment--a fact you keep ignoring and keep trying to put on me, like I'm relaying a personal anecdote or something (talk about "twisting and mangling conversations"--you've got a master's degree apparently). Read the damn thread. Someone ELSE said that--I said you need to ask THEM about it, and I don't happen to think they are lying. Instead of going along and asking them, you come back and get pissed at me.

Over and over.

How ODD is that?

When you can come up with something that sounds like a solution to make dental care for Americans genuinely more affordable, I'd be more than willing to listen to you. I'm guessing EVERYONE here will be all ears. But yelling at me because I relay my own experience and have a few opinions that you aren't rebutting at all (just adding more complaints) is just foolish. And trying to explain me away by saying "Waaah, I think you hate dentists" is totally absurd.

Cough up the real answers for real, regular people. Tell the people here how they can afford overpriced and unaffordable-to-them dental care. Give them solutions (and by solutions, I mean something beyond "Line up at the dental schools with the homeless"), instead of picking on me and trying to make this about me, when it's about expensive dental care in the USA and the challenges MANY people have affording it.

[JVS]

112. God forbid their douchebag dentist who lies about his contributions to problems lose a customer.

[gmoney]

30. just paid $900 for a root canal AFTER a crown, and another $100 for a filling

I hope the new health plans will include dental...

[Mika]

33. Did the DR drill through your crown, or remove it and replace it after the root canal?

If your DDS placed a crown on a tooth that needed a root canal, then you should discuss the replacement of the crown for a new one (if the crown had to be drilled for the root canal).

[gmoney]

46. Endodontist drilled thru the crown...

Crown was done by a guy who's since been revealed to be a crackpot (well, actually, one of his assistants did 90% of it), so I didn't want to go back to him. Other dentist has been watching the tooth, and after the second flare-up abscess, recommended an endodontist rather than doing the procedure himself.

As usual, there's nobody to hold accountable. I'd contend they did a shit job on the crown in the first place, which caused all the irritation and infection trouble.

[valerief]

34. I can't believe the copay was only $300 for a root canal and crown.

Mine is usually over $500. I have dental insurance that covers 60%.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

57. After reading all the responses

I may have to talk to my wife. perhaps it was just $300 for the root canal. :shrug:
She only asked for $300 so that's my assumption. For the most part, we keep separate finances so I'm not sure.
I trust her - that's all that really matters in the end.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

63. EDIT: So only the crown was like $350... the RC is another $200

I just got off the phone w/ my wife. I guess her root canal was only like $200. The crown will still be $350.
So closer to $550 which seems more like other accounts here.

Unfortunately, I think we are nearing our anual limit, so her doctor is going to put a "temporary crown"(?) on it in 2 weeks until the policy resets in January. The temporoary crown will be free, which I find somewhat relieving. At least that gives us until Jan to come up with the rest. If she gets the permanent crown put on before January, it costs some rediculous amount.

[Uben]

38. Co-pay, schmo-pay...............

......All I got is I-pay! Oh, I have insurance, no dental though. Even if I got sick or injured and let's say it cost $15K, My I-pay policy dictates that I would pay $10K of that and the insurance company would pay a whopping $5K! My premiums? Here's where it gets really sick......$18K+/yr. That's right, due to a pre-existing condition (wife's cancer 6 yrs ago) our premiums have gone up to $1550/mo even though she hasn't even been to a doctor in over three yrs! We have a $5K deductible and we have to pay 50% of the next $10K before it kicks in to full coverage! With the pre-existing condition, we cannot get insurance anywhere else, so they just keep jacking it up every year, I guess hoping we will drop it. At the rate it's going, we will have to do just that in a year or two! Seven years away from medicare and trying to hold on till she gets there!

[moc]

40. Do you have a dental school near you? If so, your wife can apply to be in their patient pool.

The work is excellent; it just takes longer because the student has to stop between each step of the procedure to be checked by a professor. Of the 9-10 crowns I have in my mouth, the best are the ones done in a dental school. They are a lot more meticulous and the crowns fit better. I had a root canal done at a dental school as well. Those are done by returning dentists who've come back to get specialization training.

[notadmblnd]

42. sometimes you can put off the work until you get the anount of money the dentist wants

paid on installments. Kinda like layaway. My son is going to miss his first 6 month checkup for the first time since he was two. He's only ever had two cavities in his life. Never any in his adult teeth. Our dental got taken away from us because my husband (who died), was one of those lazy, over paid auto workers. I guess we were just taking to much out of those poor bankers, CEOs and stockholders pockets?:shrug: I explained to him in June that he better make sure he takes care of them cause we no longer have dental. I'm just glad I got his braces done early and except for having to wear his retainer at night, we're over them.

[ejpoeta]

50. hate to tell you, but you're getting off cheap if you are only paying $300....

i believe a root canal costs A LOT... and i know how much of it i would be paying.... most of it.

[NNN0LHI]

54. was half tempted to ask her to hold off for awhile?

Jesus Christ man. You thought about leaving your wife in pain for awhile? Why the fuck would you do that?

Plus if infection is present think about how close a tooth is to her brain? An infection from the tooth could go right to her brain and kill her while you waiting around for a while.

I can't believe some of the shit I read around here.

Don

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

58. It's not like I can shit out money...

We both work full time and live pretty much paycheck to paycheck. $300 will take a few weeks to pull together.
I shuffled some stuff around and she had her root canal procedure today.

Heck, if it was me the first question (after bitching about the price) would be, "When does it have to be done by, doc?"
There's been plenty of time I've needed stitches or random things where I just said "F-That" due to price or something. I was once knocked out playing sports and some friends called an ambulance. I was pissed that someone called EMS and refused to go with them - I was mostly OK, imo.
Like I said, given my nature, I thought about suggesting she wait... but then figured that was inappropriate. She comes first.
Plus, sleeping on the floor is never a crowd-pleaser :P

[PCIntern]

59. i love dental threads...

Mika's absolutely correct, BTW...

One caveat to all of the lay people posting: it's really a whole lot more complex than it seems to be...really. that's not to denigrate anyone here; I think the quality of the discussion has been excellent...but flat-out statements about certain types of restorations or clinical conditions are unwise and inappropriate generalizations.

I for one as many know around here, am a real humanist and in sufficient financial trouble to prove it. My dental patients, most of whom eventually pay their bills, know that they can ask me for a favor. My difficulty is asking the specialists (endo-, Perio-, Ortho-) for significant fee reductions for long-time, well-meaning patients. They accede and give the person a whole 75 dollars off the 950 dollar price, and then let me know what great folks they are.

I generally get sarcastic with them...there's not much they can do: I send over a million dollars a year out of my office.

[MADem]

66. What's "the solution," then? People don't have money to fix their teeth.

That's why they go to Mexico and Brazil--because they can go there and back and still it is cheaper than going down the street to the full-price American using only the US-based lab.

There's no percentage in being correct when people cannot afford the treatment, now, is there?

What is the answer....besides "Gum it, gramps?"

You appparently are a rare breed, and you take payments. Most dentists don't. I've never met one that did since, oh, the sixties or early seventies, when they used to send you a bill!

[dysfunctional press]

60. i went the dentures route...

i just couldn't handle continuing to try to cobble together what was left, after all the corners that had been cut thru the years, via root canals, crowns and extractions- i had what was left pulled, and got full dentures- it's the best my smile has looked in a couple decades.

[PCIntern]

61. /true fact:

there's nothing more esthetic than a set of full dentures which has been well-made with an eye towards the esthetics.

Relative comfort and function is another matter, but great if they work!

[dysfunctional press]

68. they're mostly comfortable and fairly functional...

i had braces on my teeth for 18 months beginning in the 6th grade...during that time, my gums went completely to hell, and even after i got the braces off, they stayed really bad, and i never got into any good habits to rectify it.
when i made the decision to go with the dentures, i inquired about implants, but my dentist recommended against it, due to the amount of bone loss on my lower jaw, due/related largely to the gum problems.

[MADem]

67. You obviously like the look of them.

How do they feel? Are you aware of them, or do they just settle in like a nice pair of shoes? Do you use any of those "products" on the tv? Which, in your experience, is best--the "Sea Bond" or the Polident???

I have most of my teeth (I am lucky so far) but I always wondered what it was like to have false teeth--if it was a pain in the butt, easier, how it felt. My great grandparents had them and I always used to laugh at them by the bedside as a kid. They just looked so...amazing to me. Funny the things that stick with you over the years!

[dysfunctional press]

71. you kinda get used to them...

it does feel really weird at first- you can't understand how there's room for everything- plus your tongue...but you just get used to it. :shrug:
and i'm the kind of person who wears absolutely NO jewelry- not even a watch or my wedding ring- EVER. i can't stand the stuff.

personally, i'm partial to the chamomile fixodent cream. i tried the powder once- didn't like it at all.

and- i actually have two upper plates to switch between...i dropped my original one on the tile floor while i was cleaning it, and it broke in two- right in half, right between the two front teeth...so, i superglued it together, and called my dentist to get fitted for a new one. i didn't try to put the glued one back into my mouth- but i did take it to the dentist, and i did still get a second plate, because i figured that the super glue job wouldn't hold up all that long...BUT- he relined the plate that i had broken and glued(he couldn't even see the crack from the glue line- i still can't see it, or even feel it with my tongue- but i know it's there) that was almost two years ago, and it's still doing fine- and it was just relined again.

they can be a pain in the butt...and some days i don't get around to putting them in until later...or at all if i don't have plans to go anywhere. or sometimes even if i do- i won't go 'out in public' without them(unlike my aunt)- but i can go to the drive thru at mcdonald's, and eat my sausage egg mcmuffin meal without any teeth. :7

[MADem]

72. Hee hee!!!!

You hot ticket! Funny, I "never" eat at the Mickey Dees, but I am alone and without family this week, so I took myself out to breakfast and had one of those biscuits with the sausage and OJ at the drive thru!!

I never knew they "lined" the things--like pantry shelves?

I love DU--ya learn new stuff every day!

[dysfunctional press]

74. i would have pointed out that the breakfast i described is the 'number 2'...

but that would have been inviting too much abuse.

[MADem]

76. Ha ha ha ha!!! I was having a little trouble at the "box" over that!

First, my car's old, so it's not super quiet and it was hard as hell to hear over the noise and the honking static. I finally gave up and turned it off so I could hear what the hell they were saying! Then, there were so many damn choices on that board I was a bit blown away--all sorts of breakfast meals of all types, even breakfast burritos--who knew? I finally said give me the sausage biscuit meal, they said what do you want to drink, I said OJ and they gave me a potato thing with it! They've gotten better at this drive-through business....they actually list the stuff you buy on a screen now as you order it (news to me, but I gather they've been doing that for awhile now...you can tell I don't do this often!).

It was a tasty sausage biscuit--probably made of pig's ears and arseholes, but it was well spiced, and I did enjoy it. I gave some of it to the parrot and he hollered for more and didn't die, so it must be OK!!

[defendandprotect]

69. We need to remove age limits from MEDICARE/FOR ALL and add dental and eye glasses . . .

[MilesColtrane]

73. It could be worse.

You could have paid for a root canal and a crown on a tooth, only to be told later that they still can't save it.

I have a molar that is undergoing internal resorption (don't ask). The only solution now is to pull it and get an implant. I had this done on the other side of my mouth about 5 years ago for 3 Large.

It's probably going to cost four to five thousand this time around.

I'm putting it off until I just can't take the pain anymore.

[1]

75. mamma 1 told me: never trust a dentist or a chiropractor... or a republican...

[handmade34]

78. it is tough going

I dropped my insurance for the same reason last year... I couldn't afford the co-pay on top of $1,200/month premiums!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

79. Ask them to sterilize the inside of your tooth.

With liquid antibiotics.

I had two teeth with cracked fillings. Two molars next to each other. Then they fell apart so I got two root canals. Then I went to a dentist who pulled the teeth and sterilized the holes.

The dentist said I had anaerobic bacteria that caused tissue damage. Pockets of dead stuff with infection in them that she rinsed out.

I also had four holes where I had my wisdom teeth pulled when I was eighteen, which was almost forty years ago. She found a pocket of anaerobic infection in two of those where they didn't take out the ligament, rinsed it out with antibiotic solution and hit it with ozone as well.

Believe it or not, I was in bed after these extraction holes were rinsed out and sterilized, just a few hours later, recuperating, and I started thinking faster!!

[Tx4obama]

80. Count your blessings and pay the $300

my last root canal and crown 6 years ago cost $1500+

[JeanGrey]

81. This is why expanding Medicare won't work. People don't

seem to understand that the working poor cannot afford, say, a 900 hospital copay. It will be the same as no insurance at all.

I've had medicare and it leaves you owing A LOT.

[MADem]

87. I am no expert in the Masscare that people are griping about

but it is a good deal for the poor, I know that. They pay pretty much nothing. Four bucks for prescriptions. If you make less than thirty two grand or something like that, you qualify. If you have a lot of kids (like eight or so) you can make over a hundred grand and qualify.

It's the people in the middle who don't fall under the limits who complain, because they have to have insurance or pay a fine.

I fall under federal insurance so I don't have issues with that whole process.

[JeanGrey]

93. I have medicare and a secondary policy I pay 1000 a month

for, nearly 1/3 my monthly income and last month I had to pay a 450.00 bill - medicare decided it wasn't "medically necessary" even though it was blood tests on my yearly transplant checkup. Of course since medicare refused it the secondary insurance was able to deny it as well (as medicare goes so goes the others and it's legal).

So I know all about medicare. Out of a 100 bill you'd be lucky if medicare paid half of it.

[MADem]

96. I was talking about MASSCARE, not medicare.

The state mandated health care plan.

Emily Latella time!!

[JeanGrey]

103. I hope it's better than Medicare because medicare sucks.

If it is expanded people will be complaining in no time!~

[MADem]

106. Well, obviously it is for the poor. It's the people in the upper middle

brackets that are unhappy, I believe.

[JeanGrey]

107. I'm a retiree and no where near "upper middle brackets".

I have medicare because I am disabled.

[MADem]

108. Well, we keep talking apples and oranges. If you lived in MA you'd

likely qualify for MASSCARE and Medicare if you don't make much. I believe the cutoff is something like thirty two grand for a single person.

[JeanGrey]

109. What are you talking about, apples and oranges?

I am merely pointing out that "expanding" medicare isn't going to work.

[MADem]

110. I keep talking about MASScare, and you keep talking about MEDIcare.

They aren't the same, that's all I am saying.

Go back up and read the full conversation.

[JNelson6563]

82. Don't feel bad.

I have no insurance and have horrible dental needs. I would do anything to only need $300 for my dental needs.

As to the tooth, such things are common. They have to drill till they get all the decay and it often results in the need for a root canal.

Julie

[Shagbark Hickory]

86. Dental ins doesn't cover shit. nothing new about this.

[hfojvt]

95. mine covers quite a bit

and for $15.10 a month it definitely pays for itself. My root canal was completely covered too, but that seems to be unusual. The dentist there looked it up and said something like 'holy crap you have good insurance'. But then the dentist bailed because she could not get to the 3rd root.

[Shagbark Hickory]

99. Well then what is the name of your insurance company then? And is anyone eligible for it? nt

[hfojvt]

100. I doubt if everyone is eligible for it

it's a group plan through my employer. It's from Delta Dental. Actually if I was paying the full amount, instead of half, it would not be such a good deal.

[Shagbark Hickory]

105. O,I C. A group plan thru Ur employer. What a novel concept. Thx 4 answering tho. n/t

[Diane R]

97. Count your blessings and pay the $300. The OP is disgusting.

We have never had dental insurance. We pay $850 for health insurance for the two of us, and it covers nothing.

We paid all the costs of FOUR sets of braces for three kids (one needed two sets). We've paid for many crowns, root canals, cleanings and x-rays out of our own pocket....no $300 copay.

Our son went to dental school. He studied hard, ate lots of top ramen to survive, and left with over $200,000. in debt. He deserves to be paid for his services.

Really....the whining in your OP is really something. Pay the money and be thankful.

[PCIntern]

101. As a dentist I wish

your son well in his career...by and large the vast number of patients are reasonable people who are most appreciative of a sincere effort.

[Erin Elizabeth]

116. ....

I'm sorry your dentist son is broke from going to dental school, but I'm too broke to pay to get my teeth fixed, even with dental coverage.

[Gormy Cuss]

118. "..for someone living paycheck to paycheck $300 is ALOT of money. .."

You apparently missed that part of the OP. As for whining, you did a pretty good job of that in your post.

That said, I wish your son well in his career. I hope that he brings some sensitivity to the office after growing up with no dental insurance himself.

[PeaceNikki]

119. I believe the OP is "whining" about the insurance, not the whether the provider should be paid.

Insurance continues to charge WAY more and cover WAY less.

[western mass]

102. In the UK, you would have paid $76

Under the NHS, unlike medical visits (which are free), you have to pay for a dental procedure, but the prices are fixed:

£16.50 - This charge includes an examination, diagnosis and preventive care. If necessary, this includes X-rays, scale and polish, and planning for further treatment.

£45.60 - This charge includes all necessary treatment covered by the £16.50 charge PLUS additional treatment such as fillings, root canal treatment or extractions.

That's not per tooth, BTW, that's for the whole deal. I recently got an exam, x-rays, and two fillings: total cost = £45.60.

Many people choose to have private care rather than NHS dentists. The private prices are very reasonable too - that's what you get when it has to compete with basic state health care.

[mwooldri]

120. If you can find an NHS dentist...

... private practice is more lucrative so there's more availability there, but there's a shortage of NHS dentists - in some cases a chronic shortage. It's not unheard of for a 1 year wait for a NHS dentist in some parts of the country.

The NHS has been tinkering with the pay to dentists for years, trying to figure out ways to get them back into the NHS fold whilst keeping costs under control.

Bottom line: NHS dentistry needs more funds, but the Brits are the people who get clobbered with the "bad teeth" meme.

[a la izquierda]

104. Man, I'm having a similar situation...

Dentist fills tooth back in December. Tooth still hurts. Went back to the dentist, who fiddled with the filling. Last week, I'm flossing and half of the tooth breaks right off. I can only imagine what this is going to cost...thankfully, I too have insurance (I'm a grad student, so it's essentially paid for).
Good luck!

[JVS]

111. Your dentist is a fucking douche. Sue him.

[PCIntern]

113. "Your Honor, I hereby charge my dentist with being a douche..."

I can "Hear it now".

[JVS]

114. The dentist already got a copay for doing work that made things worse

"My wife questioned the fact that she'd had the tooth worked on before, and such a condition was not present previously. The dentist basically said, yeah, we drilled pretty deep for that cavity and denied that they may have contributed."

She should be compensated for the work she already had done that was ineffective. At the very least, this root canal should be considered part of the treatment of the original problem and not need a copay, even if that means that the dentist has to swallow some pride and admit that he didn't get it done right the first time.

[REP]

117. I hear what you're saying, but that's not a bad price, considering how little dental ins covers

I know exactly what you mean - premiums are so high, and if anything beyond the basics needs to be done, WHAM! I recently had years of poverty and bad genetics fixed after finally getting dental insurance. I have a terrific dentist who bills fairly, so what wasn't covered wasn't her fault, and we were prepared for it, but yowza.

Some been there, done that advice offered in the spirit of fellowsuffering: if you can get it done now, do it - it's cheaper than waiting!