Recent shooting in Pittsburgh -- POSSIBLE wingnut attack

[Kievan Rus]

I live in Pittsburgh and the story is still breaking, so it may not be judicious to jump to conclusions yet -- but considering the guy that murdered three cops earlier this year in Pittsburgh was another Freeper-posting, right wing racist nutcase, plus the other attacks committed by right wingers earlier this year throughout the United States, it isn't a stretch. I'm not jumping to conclusions right away and am not definitively saying it's a wingnut attack; it may and probably has nothing to do with wingnuts at all; but it may after all. It just shows how prevalent right-wing acts of violence have become that every time one of these things happen and I first hear about it happening, I initially believe it to be motivated by right-wing hatred; for example, in the year or two after September 11, I'd expect it to be radical Islamists such as al-Qaeda, Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

There was a shooting at a health club in Pittsburgh this evening, with five confirmed victim fatalities. From what early reports on KDKA (the local CBS news affiliate), all of the vicims were women as it was a shooting attack on an all-female aerobics class. If that is in fact true, it sounds eerily similar to the 1989 Montreal Massacre in Canada. An avowed anti-feminist nutcase went into a college in Montreal, Quebec and went on a shooting rampage, murdering fourteen women before killing himself. A handful of the most extreme "mens rights" screwballs refer to the shooter, whose name was Marc Lepine, as a hero; not unlike how militia nutcases lionize Timothy McVeigh, or the radical Islamists lionize the 9/11/2001 hijackers.

It was probably a personal dispute or just a crazy person committing an act of violence, but there is always the possibility that it's motivated by right-wing hatred. The radical right is a hate-filled movement that has no respect for anybody who is not white, anybody who is not male, anybody who is not heterosexual, anybody who is not Protestant, anybody who represents the United States Government, and anybody who generally does not think the way that they do. Any time that there's an attack against blacks, Hispanics, Asians, women, Jews, Roman Catholics, liberal Protestants, Muslims, GLBT persons, local/state/Federal goverment employees, Democrats, moderates, and conservatives that aren't raving lunatics, you always wonder if a wingnut is causing chaos when news breaks on something like this. The Southern Poverty Law Center notes that the ultra-radical right is becoming increasingly violent. When the Holocaust museum was shot up, I thought a wingnut did it and I was right. When the three policemen were murdered in Stanton Heights in April, I thought a wingnut did it and I was right. This tragedy may very well have had nothing to do with wingnuts, but wouldn't be least bit surprised if it did.

[sharesunited]

1. Who it was isn't as important as what he used to kill people and himself.

A gun. With bullets.

[Redstone]

5. Yes, indeed. Well said.

Redstone

[Pavulon]

7. Really?

so root cause is overshadowed by the mechanism of death. Knife pipe bomb, gun, motive is not relevant?

[sharesunited]

8. If the dead could talk, they would mainly complain about how convenient and total the injustice was.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. Never miss an opportunity to turn tragedy into your personal political soapbox.

[sharesunited]

12. You always accuse me of that FMD. Such A Tragedy, Now Carry On Dying Everybody.

You can cluck your style of disapproval for crimes such as these, and I'll cluck mine.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

17. You always do it, hence the accusation.

[sharesunited]

20. Still streamlining it. Soon it will be simply: There, You See?

[JonQ]

15. This guy killed 5, and that means we should ban guns

the lady in new york killed 7, what does that mean about cars?

The motive doesn't matter, only the tool used to do the killing. Well, cars kill far more than guns. Why shouldn't they be banned? Because there are millions of cars in this country? Because it would a tremendous invasion of the rights of individuals, because the vast majority of car owners never kill anyone? Because they are specifically protected by the bill of rights (oh no, nevermind)?

[RamboLiberal]

22. NY Woman used Vodka and Pot

Guess we should go back to prohibition and isn't pot illegal already in NY. Yep, that really worked well.

If the guy didn't have a gun and wanted to kill he'd still find a way. Drive his car into the fitness center. Go in with a molotov cocktail, etc.

[JonQ]

29. Timothy McVeigh

and the 911 hijackers managed to kill a few people without using a single firearm, in a remarkably simple way.

Only amateur psychopaths use firearms. If your goal is simply to kill large numbers there are far better ways to go about it.

[sharesunited]

28. Guns are made for convenient killing, and people reach for them to express discontent.

[JonQ]

30. Yes, that happens all the time

this sort of thing is the norm not an anomaly. Given the millions of guns in this country, each one is used to kill a half dozen people, that leaves us with an annual death rate attributable to guns to over 600 million.

Damn, no wonder people are so opposed to them.

[sharesunited]

36. Do the stats for russian roulette look acceptable to you on paper?

[JonQ]

37. 1 in 6 killed?

No, not so good.

Are the stats on gun-owners comparable? 1 in 6 will kill someone? Or perhaps 1 in 6 americans will be killed by guns ever year. That's about 50 million. Or maybe 1 in 6 people who die will have been killed guns? That'd be about 419,000 per year. In fact around 10,000 could be attributable to firearms.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

You know, I'd take the outrage more seriously if you were also calling for a ban on cars, alcohol and tobacco, all of which kill far more people than guns in this country. Actually swimming pools are responsible for more dead children than guns, we should ban those too, for the children.

[sharesunited]

42. Guns and ammo are intended and designed to conveniently kill at the whim of the shooter.

It is unacceptable to allow them to proliferate.

[JonQ]

45. Ah, so it's the intentions behind the invention that matter

not the actual, real world stats on how they are used? So if guns were responsible for 0 deaths they should still be banned because they somehow have evil inentions. But something that kills 100,000s of people, but was designed for some other person is fine.

So for instance, cars kill far more, but they weren't intended to kill, so their victims are irrelevant. Of course nicotine and alcohol were developed (naturally) to be fatal toxins, so they are designed to kill, and should be banned.

Hm, jet engines were designed to facilitate killing people in war, and jet planes are responsible for deaths today, should they be banned?

It get's so confusing trying to figure out if an inanimate object has good intentions or not. I prefer to just go with the numbers, those are less subjective.

[sharesunited]

46. Be sure to add the four killed yesterday at the whim of the gym shooter.

A gun and a grievance.

[JonQ]

47. Oh this will be fun

you tally up all the people killed by guns. I'll tally up all the people killed by cigarettes, alcohol, and automobiles (all things manufactured by people that we could do with out and could easily ban, unlike say cancer, or heart disease). I would throw fast food in there but that gets tricky deciding who exactly is killed by that versus inactivity, and so on.


Actually I'll do it for you to save time (year 2000, so it's probably gone up):
Tobacco 435,000
Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 365,000
Alcohol 85,000
Microbial Agents 75,000
Toxic Agents 55,000
Motor Vehicle Crashes 26,347
Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000
Suicide 30,622
Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000

Can't do much about diet, microbes, toxic agents or unintended reactions to drugs. So that leaves 546,000 attributable to cars/alcohol/tobacco, all things that could be banned. And a mere 29,000 to guns. Guns are really underperforming here. But on the plus side you have plenty to add to your list before you have to worry about banning guns. Hell, those three things aren't even technically protected by the constitution, so it should be easy.

Now go forth, and save us from statistical anomalies!
edited for spelling

[sharesunited]

49. Dying or being maimed at the whim of another. Conveniently and efficiently.

Your spreadsheet might have difficulty adequately capturing this qualitative factor.

I do think it matters.

[JonQ]

51. Well as a matter of fact I would be delighted

if I were maimed or killed by a car.

But if it were a gun that would be sad.

Good point.

[sharesunited]

52. If it happened by car, chances are that it would be an accident.

Guns and ammo enable malice.

[JonQ]

53. Ok, so you're changing your reasoning again

Not numbers, not the purpose of the item, but malice.

So malice is the real crime here.

Why not just ban that.

[sharesunited]

54. Convenience and efficiency in the commission of homicide and causation of bodily injury.

That is the harm to society from guns and ammo proliferation.

[JonQ]

55. Ok, so now it's convenience

not numbers, not the purpose of the tool, not malice, but how easy the crime is.

I really wish you'd make up your mind so I could debate against one point, instead of multiple conflicting ones.

[sharesunited]

56. You only prevail in the argument over numbers. As long as accidents are somehow same as homicides.

[JonQ]

57. Counting accidents as the same as homicides

is an old gun-grabber trick. Suicides too.

They lump them all in together and call them all gun homicides. And even still fall far short.

And I think the "argument over numbers" is relevant. How many people are dying objectively is worth noting. Are you saying you would not like to argue over the objective part, but rather the subjective? Like how do guns make you feel? And are the victims of gun crimes more dead than the victims of drunk driving?

[sharesunited]

58. The equivalency just doesn't wash. Making others dead by intention and with ease. That's guns.

[JonQ]

59. Making others dead by negligence and with ease, that's cars.

This is fun.

Making others dead for pleasure via secondhand smoke; that's cigarettes.

Making others dead to cover up deep seated psychological issues expressed through a variety of crimes including domestic violence, drunk driving, murder; that's alcohol.


This is fun.

Just out of curiosity, if a kid is killed by a drunk driver, are they less dead than if killed by a drunk gun owner?

[sharesunited]

60. You can rail against your menaces, and I'll rail against mine.

It's all fair game if they are killing people.

Deal?

Now off we go to pursue our respective crusades!

[JonQ]

62. Not so easy

The "menace" you are railing against is one of our most basic liberties. I wouldn't expect people to agree with me if I came on here and argued (repeatedly) for the abolition of free speech, the establishment of a national religion, or stripping people of their right to a trial by jury. Even if I couched it in language claiming to be "for the children".

[sharesunited]

63. I think you've been sold a bill of goods by the NRA regarding this so-called "liberty".

The more society is subjected to this supposed "liberty" the more imprisoned it becomes.

[JonQ]

64. Freedom is slavery

war is peace, ignorance is strength.

All these freedoms are confusing and terrifying and should be replaced with an all knowing, all seeing father to watch over us.

[slackmaster]

31. sharesunited always has the same knee-jerk response but has yet to offer a workable plan

To make the situation better without trampling peoples' civil rights.

[Orsino]

40. If the weapon were more important...

...than most gun owners would go on similar rampages.

Since that's not anywhere near true, neither is this particular opinion of yours. No, strike that--the ready availability of guns must surely be a factor in mass shootings, but it seems to me that guns don't turn people crazy, and crazy is what fueled the violence.

[JonQ]

41. Sad fact is

people who desperately want to kill others indiscriminately, and who are unconcerned/eager to die are always going to find a way.

Frankly it's better that he picked this, and not say a minivan laden with fertilizer and an ignition switch.

6 deaths are tragic certainly, but it could just as easily have been 600 if he'd gone another route.

[undeterred]

2. Or maybe he just wanted to go out in a blaze of glory

and kill as many women as he could while doing it.

[MissB]

3. CNN noted it was a Latin dance class

So a woman-hating freeper shooter wouldn't surprise me.

[kjackson227]

50. It wouldn't surprise me, either.

[scheming daemons]

4. As soon as his name is released... look for RimJob to start scrubbing....

Wouldn't surprise me..

[Faygo Kid]

6. Bingo. It's likely a Freeper.

Over there, they are saying that if only citizens could pack guns . . .

Yeah, nothing says a good aerobics workout like packing heat in a holster at your side.

They are completely insane.

[Orsino]

38. Well, not so far...

...but distinguishing a right-wing political freak from a mere narcissistic paranoid could be very tricky.

I suspect a lot of overlapping views.

[BlooInBloo]

10. Sigh.

RIP, all.

[WeDidIt]

11. 10 to 1 it's domestic violence

And the perp is a steroid user

[katandmoon]

13. In short -- you've described the quintessential gun worshipper

[nolabear]

14. Don't rumor monger! It ill becomes the DU.

NEVER post "probably" or "I'll bet" or "might be" or like speculations. When you have facts, sure. Be outraged as hell. But this becomes the emotional equivalent of fact and creates hate that isn't based in reality. It's rabble-rousing and the DU shouldn't be rabble. Leave that to FR.

[napoleon_in_rags]

19. Well said. Though the truth be told, if we were doing it Freep style, there would be no doubt.

The poster would have told it as fact, and we would all start telling it to all our friends to attempt to make it fact. A regard for truth is what sets us apart.

[JonQ]

16. I don't think there's any evidence of that at the moment

it could be, but speculation in the absence of evidence is fairly pointless.

[RagAss]

18. let's wait until details come in.

[joecool65]

21. Long time listener, first time caller

Hey, everyone! Long time listener, first time caller on DU.
I was about a half-mile from the Bridgeville LA Fitness when the shooting occured. Police cars were flying past me in the opposite direction and I was not sure what was happening, but I knew it was something big.
Anyhow, word is that a love triangle was the motivation behind the shooting. The gunman walked into a fitness class, put down a duffle bag, pulled out at least one gun, and started shooting without saying a word as far as we know. I seriously doubt politics had anything to do with the gunman's motivation if it occurred in a fitness studio.

[Kievan Rus]

24. It reminds me of the 1989 Montreal shooting

Since it was a shooting in a group of all females, it does make you wonder if it's a gender-related hate crime. Some right-wing anti-feminist lunatic did that in 1989 in Montreal on a college campus, and that was a gender-related hate crime.

[joecool65]

26. A gender-related hate crime?

Please stop with the nonsense that it was somehow politically motivated. You have no proof of it and now you are somehow trying to find whatever rationale possible to justify your original position. I was in the immediate area and word was the motivation for the shooting was a love triangle and/or some type of relationship issue. The fact that he shot all women probably just means those women who were killed and injured were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[nolabear]

34. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

I always wanted to do that.

[dorkulon]

23. Premature speculation, but you seem to already know that. So why even post yet? nt

[Rocknrule]

25. This wouldn't happen if everyone was armed to the teeth!

Obviously, the answer is MORE GUNS!!!

:sarcasm:

[joecool65]

27. Word

Everyone should have a sidearm while taking a Latin dance exercise class. More guns equals less crime, as Dr. John Lott once claimed.
www.whoismaryrosh.com

[slackmaster]

32. K&U for idle conspiratorial speculation already shown to be false

This was the work of a deranged loner. His blog is available on several other threads.

:kick:

[Joanne98]

33. He had a website. Loner who was rejected by women......

still could be a freeper though.......

BRIDGEVILLE, Pa. — A man who sprayed bullets into a fitness center class filled with women apparently kept a Web page in which he wrote about years of rejection by women, struggles with alcohol, domineering and bullying family members and an earlier failed shooting attempt.

Neighbors described 48-year-old George Sodini as anti-social, and the Web page in his name showcased a resume setting forth his credentials as an unhappy loner. It listed his date of death — Aug. 4, 2009 — and his status of "Never married." The page ended with the words "Death Lives!"

On Tuesday night, the gunman walked into the fitness center, entered a "Latin impact" dance aerobics class and placed a duffel bag on the ground. After pausing a few moments, he took out at least two guns out of the bag and started shooting.

Three women were killed and nine people were injured. Police say may have fired as many as 52 shots before turning the gun on himself.

"He walked right into the room where the shootings occurred as if he knew exactly where he was going," Allegheny County police Superintendent Charles Moffatt said. "I think he went in with the idea of doing what he did."

Authorities identified the gunman as Sodini on Wednesday morning.

The 4,610-word Web page, on a domain registered in Sodini's name, appeared to be a nine-month chronology of his plans to commit the shooting, his decision to delay it and the process that led to the eventual carnage at the health club Tuesday. Authorities did not immediately confirm that the site belonged to Sodini, but the elaborate nature of the comments so soon after the shootings suggested authenticity.

"The biggest problem of all is not having relationships or friends, but not being able to achieve and acquire what I desire in those or many other areas," said an entry dated Sunday. "Everthing stays the same regardless of the effert I put in. If I had control over my life then I would be happier. But for about the past 30 years, I have not."

The Web site's author wrote of planning the attack since at least November, and had tried to do it when the same Tuesday-night dance aerobics class he targeted met on Jan. 6.

"It is 8:45PM: I chickened out!" he wrote. "I brought the loaded guns, everything. Hell!"

The violence rocked the suburban Pittsburgh town of about 5,300 residents some eight miles southwest of downtown Pittsburgh.

Joann Gazzam, a member of the weekly "Latin impact" dance aerobics class, saw the gunman walk to the back of the room near some weights, set down a bag and fumble with it for a few minutes before coming up with what appeared to be two guns and opening fire, according to her sister, Debi Wozniak, of suburban Dormont.

Gazzam told Wozniak that the instructor was among those who appeared to have been shot, and that the gunman had killed himself.

"She told me, 'Debi, I seen everything. Oh, my God, I seen everything. I seen him pull out the guns,'" said Wozniak, who usually attends the class ever Tuesday from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. but was running late and didn't make it. Police say the shooting happened about 8:15 p.m.

The clean-shaven gunman walked in the room wearing workout gear, turned off the lights and, at first nobody knew what was happening, said Stacey Falk, 26, of Bridgeville, who was in the class.

"All of us girls were just ducking behind each other and it was just, you know, I was behind a girl, one of the girls in front to get hit, and when he was in the opposite corner shooting, I booked it," she told WPXI-TV.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/6561290.html
___

[Blue_Tires]

35. very sad...

[The Night Owl]

39. George Sodini was definitely a right winger. Here is proof...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6224812

[Bluerthanblue]

43. one sig line from how many years ago????

if that is "proof" he was "definitely a right winger" I sure as hell wouldn't want you on any jury-

:shrug:

I have NOTHING positive to say about Soldani- but to drag what he did into a kind of twisted "it's all them damn Right-wing retards" festival-is about as fair as saying that anyone who is from middle eastern decent is a "terrarist".

:thumbsdown:

[The Night Owl]

44. Well, okay... not proof but evidence. Here is more...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/5/762130/-(Breaking)-Sodinia-militia-nut

Is it possible that Mr. Sodini changed his stripes over the
years? Of course. Is there any evidence that Mr. Sodini
changed his stripes over the years? No.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

48. Politics had nothing to do with it -

the guy hadn't been laid in nineteen years.

He was just VERY tense. Couldn't find a girlfriend. Described as antisocial, and probably was as apolitical as they come.

Why do people try to put a political spin on things without a shred of information?

[Junkdrawer]

61. He wasn't apolitical ....

I am convinced that more drastic action is required to bring the country
back to the Constitutional order that it was 200 years ago. I don't
think any group of political leaders will achieve this for us.

One problem I fear is that any kind of Civil War or large disorder caused by
militia action can cause the investors holding the $4.8 trillion debt to
panic. If a portion of them decide to sell their dollars and buy
something more stable such as yen, mark, gold etc. it can cause the
dollar to plummet like in 1923 Germany with the German mark. We'd be
forced to print all that damn paper when the bond holders came a callin'.
If anyone believes that investers will risk capital in a battle torn
country, I have some prime property in Bosnia for sale or lease.

If the dollar became worthless, we would have another big problem:
Military intervention to "settle things". In a time of serious crisis,
many people would probably welcome this which would end up the US would
be some type of Socialist or Communist police state.


http://groups.google.com/group/misc.activism.militia/browse_thread/thread/f4a19130a6306db8/e8ee45cae0f91bc2?hl=en&q&pli=1