"Patriotism" versus "nationalism"

[Posteritatis]

That's a bit of word choice I've been rolling around in my head for awhile.

In the US, and to a considerably lesser extent in Canada, the idea of being a patriotic patriot showing one's patriotism, etc., etc., etc., is seem as desirable, or at least routine, provided one doesn't take it to the extent of tattooing stars or maple leaves onto one's forehead or something. If an individual or a movement is described as nationalist, however, it raises warning bells; it seems there's the impression of hostility towards others, or at least a less rational attitude, when the word shows up.

I've also noticed that We tend to be patriotic, while They tend to be nationalistic, at least for a very broad brush version of We and They. In that sense it feels closer to the "ethnic group" versus "tribe" distinction, but that's a whole other subject.

I feel the dividing line between the two should be obvious, but I certainly can't figure out where it lies. Do you guys see them as distinct, and if so how? Do you see them as effectively synonymous, with one whitewashed into being desirable while the other's something those guys over there feel? Perhaps something else entirely?

It goes without saying that I'd welcome anyone's thoughts on this - after all, I'm posting it to a high-traffic forum - but I might as well say that anyway. :)

(For the record, I'll use both words to describe my own views at points, though which I use wobbles around with mood and how much I'm thinking about the choice at that time. Part of my reason for posting this is the hope of refining my own thoughts on the terms.)

[Klukie]

1. I'll take a stab at it....

I equate patriotism as a state of identifying with ones home country through various symbolic words/actions, while I equate nationalism with actions/thoughts (positive/negative) that are meant promote the strengthening(or perceived strengthening) of ones home country. Just my thoughts.

[Posteritatis]

4. So do you identify patriotism as symbolic and nationalism as practical?

For lack of a better word with the latter, of course.

[Klukie]

6. I guess I do...

but like you..I tend to struggle with it. I think that patriotism has become symbolic and therefore that is the way I perceive it, although it should be practical.

[Posteritatis]

7. Interesting perspective; I hadn't considered that angle. (nt)

[snake in the grass]

16. For me...

...patriotism is the benign form and nationalism is the malignant form of tribalism. I don't have much use for either.

[PDJane]

2. ah, well............

To me, nationalism is the "my country, right or wrong" thing. It is the blind allegiance to flag and president and symbols and the place that one was born....mostly because it birthed you, so it has to be superior. It goes along with nativism and faith-based thinking.

Patriotism is support of country...but not right or wrong. It is support of president when he deserves it, and the trappings of flag and pledges and the trappings of state are just symbols.

[Odin2005]

3. Patriotism doesn't have the racialist, ethnocentric connotation that Nationalism has.

"Patriotism" comes from Latin "Patria", meaning "homeland" or "fatherland", literally " the place of our forefathers", and thus Patriotism means something like "respect for the community handed down to you by people who have gone before", with no ethnic or racialist meaning. In an American context Patriotism would thus mean respect for and duty to defend the Enlightenment ideals of the American Revolution and liberal-democratic government.

[Posteritatis]

5. What about the terms as used, as opposed to their etymology?

There's plenty of Americans on the right who are all about calling themselves patriots, but whose every word and deed is about racialist, ethnocentric views. Examples like that are where I get hung up on the distinction.

[Odin2005]

8. They are deluded "patriots"

Yes, I know, "no true Scotsman" and all that, but the "patriotism" of the right is a mix if ignorance (America is founded on Christianity!!!" and similar myths) and real fascistic nationalism disguised with the language of patriotism (like Birtherism and calling Obama a Marxist, Fascist dictator when they really mean "we don't want n***ers in the White House and they are not real Americans").

[Dramarama]

9. Cue the George Carlin video

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools."

Schopenhauer.

I see no "dividing line" between nationalism and patriotism.

[KG]

14. +infinity.

[justabob]

11. interesting question

I see nationalism as "America: love it or leave it" while patriotism is a bit more nuanced and fuzzy. In my view, a patriot loves his country and what ideals it was founded upon, but isn't blinded to faults and wrongs, and so can be critical while still caring and recognizing the good. Meanwhile, a nationalist is more black and white... America can do no wrong and you are a traitor/radical/commie-pinko/whatever to suggest otherwise. That is a very simplistic view and I am not sure I am expressing it very well, but there it is. :shrug:

[Uncle Joe]

12. I see the "dividing line" you speak of most clearly as being between the Constitution and the Flag.

"I feel the dividing line between the two should be obvious, but I certainly can't figure out where it lies. Do you guys see them as distinct, and if so how? Do you see them as effectively synonymous, with one whitewashed into being desirable while the other's something those guys over there feel? Perhaps something else entirely?"

I would burn a thousand flags before I ever lit match to the Constitution, because the Constitution is the contract which contains the whole entirety of our nation and without it we have anarchy, there is no nation.

The Flag is our national football or gang colors; the bloods have red, the crips have blue, the Vols have orange, nothing but a symbol and what does one see in a symbol, that's extremely subjective and open to massive social manipulation bordering on brainwashing.

Don't get me wrong, I like the flag; it's pretty, has nice colors and a great blend of design, as a former Marine; I have always been and am still emotionally stirred when looking at the Marine Corps Memorial depicting the Flag raising on Mount Surabachi, during the battle of Iwo Jima.

Having said all that, I would be willing do die to defend the nation as embodied by the Constitution which I view as patriotism, I would not be willing to die to defend the flag or ambiguous symbols of the flag, I view that as nationalism.

I believe that; which you revere the most determines where you fall on the patriotism/nationalism spectrum.

[LWolf]

13. I don't really like either term.

"Nationalism" is associated with fascism and extremism. "Patriotism" is, well, patronizing. It infers a "fatherland." A male dominant culture.

I prefer matriotism, myself. I'm a citizen of my mother earth first, and a citizen of a political nation 2nd.

I love the land that makes up my country; the mother earth that we are placed on. I honor the Constitution, and some of the philosophies behind it. That's the extent of my patriotism.

[Marr]

15. "My country is superior" vs. "all other countries are inferior".

The two concepts are essentially indistinguishable. The term you choose shows little more than how you feel about xenophobia and/or bigotry.

It's a bit like southerners who insist their display of the Confederate flag is about heritage, not racism. One is just a positive spin on the same idea.

It's asinine to feel proud for being born inside some arbitrary line on a map. I'm proud of western culture and think it's worth paying respect to, but I am not proud of my nationality or my genes.