private enterprise is great because my business sinks or swims on its own, without government help!

[unblock]

well, except for corporation laws, which enable me to set up a business as a legal entity without risking my private wealth, such as my house.

and except for contract laws, which enable me to hammer out deals with my suppliers and other companies.

and except for securities laws, which enable me to raise capital cheaply and effectively.

and except for regulatory disclosure laws, which give me investors some confidence that i am telling them all the relevant news.

and except for the police, which safeguards my inventory.

and except for building codes, which let me rent office space without needing to inspect every inch of wiring myself for safety.

and except for labor laws, which give my employees the comfort to come work for me without having to wonder too much how i'll treat them.

and except for tax law, which subsidizes virtually all my business expenses.

and except for bankruptcy laws, which give my creditors the comfort they need to lend to me, knowing there will be an orderly liquidation should my business fail.

and except for the public utilities and highways and infrastructure that help my operations and my logistics and my distribution.


so as you can see, if i succeed in my business, my profit and my wealth is MINE, ALL MINE and it should be shared with NO ONE, least of all the GOVERNMENT because they didn't help me in the slightest. no, sir! if i succeed in business, i'm a self-made man!

[originalpckelly]

1. You are so right about this.

Government is all over successful businesses. We try to separate one from the other, but in truth, they are interdependent. We can't have a successful government without taxes, and we can't have successful businesses without the government. Maybe we should tell the anarchists about this? :P

[Oregone]

2. You are likely to not "succeed" in business

as in, become a self-made man.

Those that "succeed" are really born into it. They enter the game with millions. They have millions as a parachute, with but a mere call to mom and dad. Mommy and Daddy's friends help them, just to complete the circle jerk. And if you don't understand that, you have already lost.

The best you can do is not drown, statistically speaking.

[RB TexLa]

9. Are you serious?

There are many people who have succeeded and came from parents and famlies who had nothing but their work ethic to give their children.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. You are shitting me right? I could give you two very concrete examples

the only thing you may have right is that TODAY it is more important to have connections.

But some folks do manage to do that... not as many as we are led to believe, but it does happen.

[Oregone]

11. Yes exceptions to the rule

Which everyone seems to believe is the rule. What a fuckn charade we choose to live in

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Not exceptions to the rule, after all

Steve Jobs and Mr. Gates are more proof of the myth. Americans live in myths, not exceptions

And those are but two examples. Every time we have new technologies we have people make it in higher percentages as well.

But these are the ones that enhance the mythology of "Capitalism." (Modern day is not capitalism per definitions used by Adam Smith, not even close, no cigar, no matter how many ways people try to delude themselves)

[Oregone]

14. "Every time we have new technologies we have people make it in higher percentages as well"

Im not really sure America's staggering low intergenerational mobility rate agrees with bit of fiction at all.

[Patiod]

79. With a small blip for the original GI bill

My dad and his cohorts leapt from lower and lower-middle class to middle and upper middle class at an astounding rate. Boys who were heading to the shipyards, factories, or public sector jobs as cops or firemen were suddenly able to attend colleges which had previously been far beyond their wildest dreams

The combination of a good education and a protected economy (while our competitors rebuilt their conuntries) allowed many to succeed far beyond their original possibilities. He has friends born into dirt-poor families (and even orphanages) who became CEOs, CFOs, CIOs and upper management. That kind of mobility isn't happening now, and isn't likely to happen again.

I've met them - they're the kind of guys who are street smart, but today they would have too heavy a Philly accent and too coarse a speech pattern, not enough "breeding" and too few connections to make it in corporate America, and not enough seed money to go very far on their own.

Is it possible to create wealth from only hard work or a good idea with no family financial backing? Absolutely.

Is it likely? Not anymore.

[MadMaddie]

115. I would say not since Reagnomics!!

[corkhead]

116. friggin socialist GI bill

seriously, you are right on. I wish I could apply a "recommend" your post.

I am speaking as a marginally successful entrepreneur who can take some pride in self made success in spite of the deck being stacked against independent businesses like mine. I am working my ass off competing against the advantages big-box stores have. They are a relatively new phenomenon that the GI bill folks didn't have to fighting against.

your last 2 sentences in particular are dead nuts on.

:toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. There are blips historically where it IS HIGHER

You were born at a time of uncharacteristically low social mobility. So from your point of view of course it is not there. But historically the US has had periods of high social mobility.

They are the times of massive technological change or the GI bill.

Hell, half of my professors when I was going to college MADE IT to the Middle Class because of the GI Bill. They were indeed the first in their families to graduate from College.

These days the US is in a period of very low social mobility, but that is uncharacteristic though parallel to the time of the robber barons in the 1880s. And even then, people who came from Europe with nothing in their name were able to do better than modern day immigrants. It helps to have a little knowledge of history to understand how uncharacteristic the US... right now.

[Oregone]

106. Yes, but we live now

And now, the "American Dream" is just that: a dream

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. And you think history is static and stuck in the moment? Oh wait you did

never mind.

I know better, and things will get better, and worst, and better and worst, that is the nature of the beast.

[Oregone]

124. No, I think we live now.

So sitting around and reminiscing about the "good ol days" and how far you had to walk to get to school in the morning doesn't do a damn bit in light of the current conditions. As of now, you are incredibly likely to make the same amount as your same sex parent at a certain a given age. That is why I originally objected to the entire "success at business", "get rich bitch", theme of the thread.

If the conditions of *now* change, such that the correlation in income between generations is no longer so strong, then I will not make such statements. In this current moment, they are wildly appropriate.

In otherwords, your good ol days talk is fucking irrelevant, and does nothing to refute the conditions of this very moment. It can only rub salt in the wounds of the those victims of this very economic crisis. Spare your words and loftily reverence of the GI Bill. Send food instead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. Those who forget history are condemened to repeat it

we are in the hole we are right now because we forgot history.

And those of us who KNEW history screamed when Glass Steegal was repealed, we knew what was coming

Enjoy living in the now... I prefer to use the lessons of the past to make a better tomorrow.

[unblock]

19. uh, bill gates started out at age 19 with FIVE MILLION DOLLARS from his father

steve jobs and michael dell would be a better example.

[dysfunctional press]

105. and his mother was on the board of ibm-his first major client.

not exactly a 'self-made man'.

[Hugabear]

60. You gave two examples. Out of how many?

I don't remember what the exact figures are, but most small businesses fall flat on their face within a few years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Ok I will give you MY FATHER

who came to Mexico with a shirt on his back in 1948, as a survivor of the holocaust. Literally their possesions were a pair of shoes, three shirts and two pants... and a few pesos.

When my parents married they had to count every peso to make sure it lasted for the momth... and at times it wasn't.

He retired after having built not one but two businesses...

You think that was from seating on his bum waiting for crumbs to come down?

Now today he would not be able to do that, not here, or there. But it has happened.

As I like to tell to people, open a book and read it. This myth of Horatio Alger has a grain of truth IN THE PAST... today we have an unusually low social mobility even when compared to other periods of LOW social mobility in the United States... (See the Gilded Age for a good comparison, even then there was more social mobility then... and that is where the story of Horatio Alger started by the by)

[anigbrowl]

93. Your worldview does not constitute a rule

[Oregone]

95. What the fuck is that suppossed to mean?

A quip for the sake of it?

Look, fluid intergenerational mobility in the US is a myth (they tie for last among the industrialized nations with Britain).

Thats not a "worldview". Its a fact. The poor have a great chance to stay poor and the rich have a great chance to stay rich, despite "hard work" and "work ethic". Sorry if that tarnishes your little tidy charade.

[anigbrowl]

108. I think it's obvious what it means.

Your original contention seems to be that it's not possible to succeed in business without established backing. You have done nothing to prove this or make your case, and your opinion alone isn't very persuasive. I don't know what charade you're on about...I guess you think anyone who disagrees with you is part of some conspiracy or suchlike.

[Oregone]

109. It isn't that it is impossible. It is incredibly unlikely

Thats not just my opinion alone. Its a fact. Here's some help:

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHMC_enCA305CA305&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=intergenerational+mobility+united+states

[tsuki]

34. If by "succeed," you mean become a billionaire, you are probably

correct.

If by "succeed," you mean live a comfortable middle class life, and save for retirement, you are wrong.

[Wednesdays]

50. Amen, about the billionaire thing. Check my sig.

[tsuki]

91. Sorry, got it. It is just that husband and I started with two thousand

dollars of saved money about 25 years ago. No, we are not rich, but barring a medical condition that could bankrupt anyone but a millionaire Fox News host, we have a retirement put away.

[Oregone]

72. The OP implied far more than comfortable middle class life

And these days, even retirement seems like a stretch.

[tsuki]

104. I was not responding to the OP, rather a comment made. nt

[Egalitariat]

118. Do you consider yourself to be "unlucky" in life?

[Oregone]

127. No. Im very lucky

My own personal anecdotal story of mobility has far exceeded my peers, statistically speaking. Im not even 30, and Ive moved from the bottom of the bottom quintile to almost the top quintile. Im in a good situation. Ive also taken my family (as skilled worker immigrants) to one of the most socially mobile countries in the industrialized worlds. Ive done big things (started businesses from scratch, attended a prestigious institution, etc). Ive never had a connection to call in or a trust fund along the way. Though, I haven't exactly worked hard at it, relatively speaking. I just was lucky with a gift (no part to myself). I left a lot of people behind who didn't have those chances. Most people don't have my opportunities (which were not even economical).

I am an exception to the rule myself. When I come back to the States, back to our small home town, those people I graduated with in that economically depressed area are still there (geographically and socio-economically). Those that stuck their necks out are saddled with debt.

I try not to use my own crazy "success" as a blindfold that skews my world-view. There are studies on this, and it is not a secret unless you wear earmuffs. Despite the "exceptions", for each one, there are hundreds of boring stories of failure that people just don't share or just don't remember. I could just chalk up everything Ive done as pulling myself up by my boot straps, and become an arrogant Republican, but then Id be living in a world of complete fucking fiction.

[Kievan Rus]

3. Wingnuts are pro-big business, not pro-free markets

There is a big difference.

[comtec]

56. Yes, but they SAY they are for free-markets

of course they aren't.
They want fascism, where the state protects corporations at the expense of the populace.
but they don't like to come OUT and say that now do they?

[xchrom]

4. kick. nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

5. KICK AND FUCKING RECOMMENDED!!!! n/t

[Brigid]

6. Then what for . . .

do you come to the taxpayers for bailout money, which you promptly give out as bonuses to your cronies? :crazy:

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

7. and the public schools that

educate your workforce

[unblock]

8. and consumer product safety laws that let my customers buy with confidence

knowing that i'm not selling them something toxic.

unless i imported it from china, that is....

[Pangolin2]

68. I'm not at all sure that's a good example, judging from recent graduates I've interviewed

the last dozen or so years...
(I probably should have written "graduates")

[gmoney]

111. +1

[1]

12. spoken like a poster that never actually started a business...

but that's cool.

we like to hear from you too...

[Book Lover]

15. Well, as someone who is interested in setting up her own business someday

I'm interested in what in the OP doesn't jibe. My goal is a small art-based business after some schooling, fyi. Thanks!

[1]

20. no, please attempt to do so. then you will learn first hand how what the op states will "help" you.

such help.

it is a glorious thing...

[Book Lover]

114. I was hoping for something concrete, honestly

Oh well. I see downthread you say you bought a farm and are now happy. That's great and I honestly hope you have good fortune with your current situation. Nothing is going to stop me from trying to set up my dream.

[Pavulon]

87. You should be able to do that without risking your house..

for example. By incorporating, like this web site, your personal assets can not be taken if someone trips in your art shop and wins an massive judgement against it.

[ima_sinnic]

17. what in the OP is wrong? (nt)

[1]

18. the funniest would be this gem...

"and except for tax law, which subsidizes virtually all my business expenses."

"subsidizes"

i do not think the op knows what this word means.

i am being kind. the op is clueless...

[unblock]

21. the op is far from clueless

i am aware i am using the word "subsidized" in the political, not in the technical sense.

in contrast to individual taxes, a business can deduct virtually all expenses. my rent as an individual is not a deduction, but my rent as a business is. in short, businesses are taxed on profit whereas individuals are taxed on income. the difference is a big tax break relative to individual taxes.

to make matters worse, businesses can go into that grey area where they take business deductions for what are really personal benefits, such as turning a deductible business trip into a vacation, hiring family into nominal positions so they can go on the business trip/vacation as well, etc. strictly speaking you're not supposed to do that, but of course a good tax guy can tell you how you can get away with this sort of thing in practice.

technically this is a "tax break" rather than a formal "subsidy" but come on, that's all you got out of the op?

[1]

22. no. clueless is most kind and appropriate...

what i "got" from the op and you, is that neither of you have actually started a business.

you show up everyday (or i'm guessing perhaps not) to take a wage from someone who has.

so simple to show up and take. so hard to actually make a business yourself.

so easy to complain about how easy it is. and proffer how much government helps you. sure they do. that is their job, right?

until you actually do it.



and i anticipate the inevitable "of course i started my own business" posts from both of you.

of course you did...

sure you did...

right...

[ret5hd]

23. Is that how you feel about employees? They just "show up (or not) and take"?

:rofl:

Do it without them then!

:rofl:

[1]

26. call me when you start your own business. i'm all ears...

:rofl:

[Mariana]

84. Plenty of business owners despise their employees

and consider them to be parasites. I've worked for a few of those - but not for long.

Fortunately, plenty also respect their employees and (correctly) consider them to be essential to the success of the enterprise.

[unblock]

24. nice, call me clueless and then dismiss any possible counter argument

i never said starting your own business was EASY, i am well aware that it is an awful lot of work.
what i said was that it isn't done without significant help from the government in many ways.

if a business owner wants to say "i really busted my butt to become a success", that is fine and well-earned.
but if a business owner wants to say "i did it myself, without any help from the government or anyone else", that is complete crap, and that is important because the "i did it myself" argument is often a lead-in to how the government shouldn't tax me or the private sector is ALWAYS better than the public sector.

you've already said any posts about my personal experience regarding knowledge of business or having started my own, so i'll spare you the details. let's just say you're clueless on the matter and leave it at that.

[1]

25. sorry. i've never known a business owner that thanks the government more than their own initiative..

you would be the first.

[ret5hd]

29. I think you should start a business in that paradise known as Somalia!!!

[unblock]

53. exactly! the small business owner is so focused on what they need to do

that they take for granted the things they don't have to do.

like bribe public officials or hire a private security contingent to protect themselves and their inventory or worry about the quality of the roads or the utilities.

[1]

54. heh. you two are so funny. like these things don't happen here? dream on, buddies...

[unblock]

62. dude, i'm not a literal extremist, so don't twist my posts that way.

ok, i said you don't have to worry about the roads. do you really think i've never seen a pothole in the u.s.? yes, strictly speaking, you do still have to worry about the roads and the fact that a pothole might damage your product in transit.

the point is that the treachery of the roads, the need for bribery, and so on are VASTLY reduced relative to some other countries and in any event YOU HAVE OTHER PEOPLE AND IN PARTICULAR A STRONG GOVERNMENT to thank for that.

[Mariana]

85. The poster never said or implied that any business owner

thanks the government more than their own intiative. Why are you making stuff up?

[Ikonoklast]

28. What business do you run? Did you start it up?

Any employees?

[ret5hd]

30. Well, he has employees but they just take and take and take.

[1]

32. put your paper hat on child and report to work. if you even have a job...

[ret5hd]

46. .

ya got nuttin'!
:rofl:

[1]

47. heh. like you...

[1]

31. a software development company. i did start it with several employees. successful for a few years...

and then we got h1-b'ed out of existence.

but it was ok because the government was there to take care us.

oh, wait... no the government wasn't and didn't.

in fact, the government put us out of business.

ha! that silly government! they fucked us!

ha! ha! ha!

[ima_sinnic]

36. awww, I feel so bad for you

:cry:

:nopity:

since your "employees" did nothing from take from you, maybe it was their fault?

:rofl:

[1]

38. i wish my happiness on you as well, my friend...

[ima_sinnic]

43. yeah, you're not bitter or anything

I'd like to be reeeeal happy, like you!

[1]

48. nope. i know what government does for me...

[Ikonoklast]

55. I see now. You blame your failed business model on the government.

Typical.

Can't compete, so it must be someone else's fault.

[1]

57. i guess its too much to expect you to understand big words like "h1-b"...

typical.

exactly...

[Ikonoklast]

58. Damm Gubbamint.

Lettin in all them thar furriners, takin' mah bidnness.

[1]

59. exactly. so just put on your paper hat and carry on...

[Ikonoklast]

61. My business is on-going and making money.

And I am in one of the most competitve businesses in this country, with cut-throat competition and challenges to gross revenue production on every front.

You have a nice day.

[1]

63. sure you are. really. i believe you. i do. honestly i do...

making them sandwiches. pushing chips and drinks.

cut-throat, it is.

i admire your efforts...

[unblock]

64. "anyone who disagrees with me is a LIAR!"

really classy debating tactic.

your business model was apparently predicated on sustained above-market compensation for computer software services such above-market compensation was only possible for a period of time because we have a government that regulates the borders and restricts immigration. if the government didn't exist, and didn't actively keep cheap labor out, your business model would have been more obviously flawed.

you're bitter not because the government didn't help, but because you think you were somehow entitled to even more help from the government.

[1]

69. liar? where the fuck did that come from? project much? buddy?

keep on thinking that the government is your be all and end all. your savior. the only reason you can exist or succeed.

if that is what you think then that is ok. i feel sad for you, but you go on thinking that. yeah, you go. dude...

*so sad for you*

[unblock]

71. where the fuck did that come from? YOUR POSTS. read them again.

there are several of your posts in this thread where you announce or strongly imply your disbelief, sometimes pre-emptively, that others here know what they are talking about, have any experience, have ever started their own business, or even "know a guy".

and again, you're taking my statements to extremes. i never said the government was the be all and end all or any sort of savior. where do YOU come up with that? i said the government does many things to HELP. that's it.

[1]

76. dude. chill. i expressed an opinion. so did you. i was nothing but nice. believe me... don't...

whatever.

i agree with you. the government can help.

true also, the government can fuck you royally.

my experience is that the government will do both.

the government to me is like a meth-addicted, rock-star brother. dude can get you some fun hot chicks... but then you wind up paying for the busted up hotel room.

i don't disown him, but then i won't put him up for sainthood...

[unblock]

77. finally you post something i can agree with

i wouldn't put the government up for sainthood either. it's corruptible and inherently flawed anyway.
but then again all institutions are imperfect and for certain things the government is the lesser evil.

in any event, there's no such thing as "i did it all myself without any help" in the private sector, and that's my main point.

sorry your business couldn't sustain itself. i actually used to be a computer consultant myself, but got out once i saw it becoming overly popular and commoditized. i miss the old c/unix days when any code that worked got you much money and much praise. nowadays businesses are so much more concerned about sticking to style templates and working off detailed specs and documenting hours and estimating project times and so on. blecch. they practically run it like a construction company. takes all the fun out of it, not to mention the expertise. it's the 1,000 monkeys approach, programmer as man-hour machines rather than as creative genius problem-solvers. not for me, not any more, anyway.

[1]

81. see? we are more friends than not...

this is a strange place.

if you dare say what you really think (i mean something against the norm) then all sorts of people jump in your shit. but not you. you can argue without getting personal, give as good as you take, and in the end we are not so much different after all.

i don't give a rat's ass about that "failed" business. except i made a bunch of money and the government did fuck me. great fun and many lessons learned. i took the profits and bought a farm. best days of my life. then and now.

eh? whatayougoingtado?

[unblock]

83. ha ha, jumping each other's shit is what democrats excel at!

we're well known for our circular firing squads :)

[1955doubledie]

98. Are you SURE you're dealing with a Democrat?

:shrug:

[Ikonoklast]

65. If that was supposed to be an insult of some kind, please try harder.

I know a guy that puts on a paper hat every day, and makes sandwiches for customers.


He is a millionaire, many times over. My daughter manages *one* of his stores.


He started out with a small business loan from...wait for it...THE GUBBAMINT!!!!


Dude, as another poster noted above, you got nuttin'.


He is always looking for good help, though. If you are in a tight spot due to your failed business, he might give you a job; I'll put in a good word for you.

[1]

67. you "know a guy". good for you. it must give you encouragement, to know he made it...

and good for your daughter. the "bread winner" of the family is she?

manager? good for her. you are truly blessed.

[Ikonoklast]

80. Yes, thank you, I am.

My daughter was an NCAA competitor, and is now going to nursing school along with working full-time.

She has accomplished a great deal in her life already.

You, however, after searching your posts, are nothing but a troll and a naysayer just to be contrary. You add nothing to the conversation except to be negative so I assume you are only here to disrupt, and anything you post is an untruth.

Good day, and goodbye.

[1]

82. well, bless me too. i'll say it if you can't...

[Zodiak]

97. I agree...this poster is a habitual contrarian

Sarcastic, mean, and patronizing.

It takes a while for most of us to put them on ignore, but it DOES happen.

[ima_sinnic]

33. employees "show up and take." they contribute nothing, in other words.

why even have them? are you trying to say you are some kind of philanthropist who just gives people money for "showing up"?

what a dickwad. if I was one of your "employees," I'd tell you to clean your own goddam toilets with your tongue.

[1]

35. keep posting to du during your working hours, friend. way to prove my point...

[ima_sinnic]

37. oh, you know what hours I work? (nt)

[1]

39. no. i know you couldn't possibly hold a job. but that's cool...

[ima_sinnic]

41. no, I don't "hold a job," and my business has not yet failed, unlike your own

loser

[1]

45. heh. you have a business... yeah sure. sure you do...

[scheming daemons]

74. Interesting debate technique. "I don't agree with you, so you must be lying"

What possible basis do you have to question whether the other poster is telling the truth about his business?


I've read the entire exchange in this thread, and you argue like a 5-year-old.


You can't argue your points with actual facts to back them up, so you accuse the other side of lying with every point they make.



You're a child... and you lost this argument.

[ima_sinnic]

40. what was that point? that employees are worthless?

poor widdle you! you actually paid people to sit around doing nothing. The government didn't ruin you, you're too stupid to be in business.

[1]

44. nope. my point is that the success of a business is not a result of government...

in fact, it is largely in opposition to it.

but then, you will never know...

[ima_sinnic]

51. gee, 1st you presume to know my working hrs, then what I will "never know"

what I DO know might surprise you, but you wouldn't be able to relate.

how frustrating for the rugged individualist, the poor widdle thwarted individualist, forced to participate in the commonwealth. I feel so sorry for you :cry:

As mentioned above, Somalia has a great, anti-government climate for business!

:rofl: :rofl:

[1]

52. not at all. i pray every day for a rise in the minimum wage. for you, my friend. for you...

[girl gone mad]

101. Get over yourself.

Seriously.

You started a business, you didn't cure cancer.

[Egalitariat]

119. Are you capable of doing all of those things AND making a lot of money?

It sounds great, the way you put it. I'd do it tomorrow. But I seriously doubt it's as easy as you imply.

[unblock]

126. there are several ways to shift money from your business to personal use

if you do it right, or at least cover it with the right amount of fig leaf, you can avoid significant taxes, at the slightly increased risk of getting an audit and/or having to pay a penalty (which is not the end of the world, just another business expense).

this is not a business strategy, it's self-compensation and tax avoidance strategy. if a business owner spends too much time on this, they're not prioritizing their business properly. but it is a side advantage.

[izzybeans]

94. spoken like a failed businessperson. but that's cool.

[JBoy]

103. Spoken like the kind of person who picks "1" as their user name.

[Raineyb]

113. Actually there's not a thing in the OP that was incorrect.

So I'm not sure what the snark is all about. If you think businesses manage to come up with no help from the government you're as delusional as the idiot teabaggers.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

16. Don't forget small business loans

That enable people to start small businesses in the first place.

[rucky]

42. And the free resources from the SBDC

which helped me kick off my first business.

[abumbyanyothername]

110. Not to hit and run, but I am going to

The small business loan with government sticker is to protect the idiot banker (is that redundant?) from his own mistakes.

[malaise]

27. Nice post

Rec

[HughBeaumont]

49. The Myth of the "Entirely Self-Made Millionaire".

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/07/5075

What Forbes means by "entirely self-made" is that the fortunes were not inherited but derived from business activity. Does this make the Forbes definition of "entirely self-made" reasonable? After all, if someone starts with modest resources, does well in business, and makes a fortune, isn't it fair to attribute that wealth to individual merit? Not really, though Forbes would like us to think so.

To see what's wrong with this idea, it's easiest to start with criteria that ought to disqualify a person from claiming to be "entirely self-made." After we've applied these criteria, we can see who's left in the pool. So, then, let us scratch from the list of the self-made anyone whose accumulation of wealth has been aided by any of the following:

Laws concerning property or contracts, and the public agencies that enforce such laws
Public schools or employees educated in public schools
Employees or customers who rely on public transportation
Roads, bridges, airports, sewers, water treatment plants, harbors, or other utilities built and maintained at public expense
Mail systems built and operated at public expense
Public hospitals and government-licensed physicians
Health and safety regulations created and enforced at public expense
Police and fire protection provided at public expense
Public libraries and parks
Any public amenities that add value to commercial or residential real estate
Government contracts
Government-provided business incentives
Regulatory agencies, such as the Federal Trade Commission or the Securities and Exchange Commission, that sustain trust in the stock market
A government-granted license permitting the exclusive use of a broadcast channel
The Internet
A form of currency legitimated and backed by a stable government
Social welfare programs that keep the poor from rebelling
The U.S. military

If we use these criteria to determine who can legitimately claim to be "entirely self-made," the Forbes number drops dramatically. It's not 270 out of 400. In fact, it's precisely zero.

If not for the legal and political arrangements that we create and maintain as a society -- with contributions from us all, costs to us all, and benefits to us all -- and if not for what we call "the public infrastructure," nobody could accumulate wealth. In short, there can be no private wealth without common wealth.

[unblock]

66. that's a nice piece, especially from forbes. makes my point much better than i did.

thanks!

:hi:

[HughBeaumont]

75. A contributor to Common Dreams wrote this about the Forbes 400.

The article is written by a professor of sociology at North Carolina State University about the Forbes 400, where the author asserts that, according to Forbes, 270 members (2/3 of the list) have fortunes that are "entirely self-made". The author is pointing out that's a buncha hooey; no one is 100% self-made without public facilities and public wealth.

You'd never see an article like this on "Mr Lucky Sperm Club's" website.

[unblock]

89. thanks for the clarification.

[fascisthunter]

70. kick and rec'ed (nt)

[NoSheep]

73. I was just thinking about this last night. Right on!

[VOX]

78. Wow -- a keeper! Well done, unblock...Kicked high and recommended emphatically. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

86. the same goes for 'free-market' loving contractors as well

the type to cry poverty and bribe the pentagon or their congresscritter for contracts...

[Pavulon]

88. Except for Employer side tax, overhead cost, your time

and effort. EXACTLY what is wrong with being able to start a business without having all your shit being taken if it fails?

You pay more for unsecured debt, contracts are double edged, securities laws protect you from abusive lenders, regulatory laws are useful, the police give you the paper to fill out when someone steals your inventory, you can still get screwed by landlords, labor laws are shitty and being a decent person protects your employees more than law. If you just follow the law you are not a great person, taxes are expensve and dont do shit to help a small business. Pay quarterly estimated, pay an accountant, or if you make an error pay massive fines,

bankruptcy leaves you exposed for 7 years. so you can not start another business without that protection. Utilities are not free and cost money.

AND if you succeed you pay tax on your payroll and tax on income. Which is fair as long as it is not regressive.

give it a whirl then tell us how easy it is.

[unblock]

92. no one said it was EASY. i just said it wasn't done without help.

i'm not saying it's wrong either. what's wrong is the all-too-prevalent attitude that many business owners have that they did it without help from anyone, least of all the government. while no one makes it easy, the government does help in many ways that are largely taken for granted.

it's especially galling when business owners (especially LARGE business owners) complain about paying their fair share of taxes, as if they reap no rewards from the government and owe nothing in return.

frankly i wouldn't mind noticeably more assistance for SMALL businesses and noticeably more taxes and regulation for LARGE businesses, i think the field needs to be leveled out. but that is another discussion.

[Pavulon]

96. Cool, we agree.

big difference in exxon and citibank and your local barber shop or florist. Your florist probably pays more percentage of revenue to tax than exxon.

[unblock]

102. in fact i recall a story a few years back about billions of dollars exxonmobil was getting

as subsidies or tax breaks for drilling in certain areas or investing in alternative fuel or something.

barbershops and the like don't have the power to lobby congress for much.

HEY, maybe barber shops AND florists should band together for subsidized scissors!

[redqueen]

90. Isn't it sad that wingers don't realize this?

They get conned and played like flutes by mega corps... and are too ignorant to know it.

[progressoid]

107. The wingers with the money realize it and they milk it for all it's worth.

But the ditto heads and fox viewers don't.

[gmoney]

112. and the US Postal Service and the Fire Department and banking laws and currency

The Postal Service which lets you mail a bill to a customer for 44 cents rather than 12 dollars like FedEx or UPS, for instance.

Or the Fire Department which also protects your inventory.

And the banking laws which allow you to conduct business easily and transfer money quickly.

Or the US currency that keeps you from having to trade your goods for sides of beef or bushels of corn.

[Indenturedebtor]

117. Don't forget about SS and Medicare allowing some cover

for you not wanting to pay pensions.

Also there's food stamps and other poverty support programs to keep those serfs you pay a non-living wage at 20 hours a week alive.

Oh and public education which ensures that your employees can at least add and subtract.

And hey while we're at it lets look at all of the R&D money the gov spends to help develop those new "efficiency" technologies that let you squeeze more work out of fewer people... like the internet.

[TxRider]

120. What a bunch of garbage

Successful private enterprise pre dates the establishment of all those laws and institutions, and the government itself.

Some laws can help business, other laws harm it.

The OP is disingenuous at best.

It could be said that the establishment of all those laws do as much to protect from private enterprise as it does to help private enterprise.


And yes I have started and run many businesses, and currently one with 15 employees turning over a couple million a year.

[unblock]

123. i'm not sure what period of history you're referring to

not that history is relevant to my argument. whatever was the case many eons ago, TODAY if you start a private enterprise, you're getting significant help from the government.

it's true that the government also taxes and otherwise places challenges on businesses, and it's also true that the help it provides sometimes helps certain companies at the expense of others.

having said that, today's private enterprise is simply not a solo enterprise.

in sports, the winning coach can take plenty of credit but should still be gracious and thank everyone who helped, including the team players and the fans and the referees and the league and so on. similarly, the successful businessman can take plenty of credit for a LOT of hard work and initiative, but should still give credit to the government and to suppliers and investors and employees and to clients and so on.

[Canuckistanian]

121. Otherwise, Somalia would be the libertarian "promised land"

These "rugged individualists" always "forget" that point.