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Inglourious Basterds: Quentin Tarantino goes to war

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:33 AM
Original message
Inglourious Basterds: Quentin Tarantino goes to war
Quentin Tarantino's latest film Inglourious Basterds has been hailed by critics and has hovered at or near the top of the box office rankings since its release August 21. It is a thoroughly repugnant work in which Tarantino once again inflicts a series of confused and sadistic images onto a mass audience...

The story concerns a group of eight elite fighting men called the Inglourious Basterds. Led by Aldo Raine (Brad Pitt), the team is an undercover guerrilla assassination squad made up of Jewish-American Nazi hunters...In spite of the ostensibly more serious setting of the Second World War, one finds in this work the same elements one has come to expect from Tarantino's films: gratuitous and psychopathic violence, endless pop culture references, the glorification of revenge, drawn-out and tedious scenes of incidental dialogue, a self-conscious use of camera movement and editing, and pervasive cynicism. All of this is delivered with a sly wink toward the audience.

Tarantino has an encyclopedic knowledge of film history, or portions of it, but it doesn't do him much good. He takes the path of least resistance at every point... Anti-intellectualism and laziness are here made into a program...

As always, Tarantino's defenders will claim his ultra-stylized celebrations of violence aren't to be taken seriously. "It's only a movie," is the refrain heard again and again.

But Tarantino's films do mean something, no matter how much he and his admirers insist they do not, and certain social moods find expression in them. Can the director's increasing fascination with revenge be understood outside the context of a crisis-ridden, declining, post-9/11 America?

...Masses of people have been killed in the bloody colonial-style wars pursued by the US since 2001.
To produce a film in this context in which American soldiers torture and execute their enemies on the battlefield, in which the audience is invited to laugh at such atrocities and, in fact, to cheer them on, is utterly reprehensible. Tarantino is appealing to the worst instincts of his viewers. This is surely among the least healthy works to have emerged in the years since the attacks of September 11...

The performance by Eli Roth, best known as the director of Hostel and other films in the so-called "torture porn" genre of horror movies, is particularly disturbing. Nicknamed the "Bear Jew," Roth's character is known for beating captured Nazis to death with a baseball bat.

In one of the film's more gruesome sequences, Roth's "Bear Jew" graphically beats a Nazi officer to death while rapturously spouting off baseball metaphors. This is one of the film's heroes! The Basterds exhibit the very kind of sadistic impulses that were the Nazis' stock in trade, particularly in the film's fiery conclusion at Shosanna's theater. Here a mass slaughter is depicted as the ultimate catharsis for both Shosanna and the Basterds.

Compare all of this to Steven Spielberg's recent Munich, in many ways a remarkable film... Tarantino is moving in the opposite direction and coming to opposite conclusions, and not by accident. His Inglourious Basterds is, in its own way, the reactionary answer to that work.

That so many critics despised Munich and are now praising Tarantino's latest film is a testament to the crisis in intellectual and cultural life at present. With Inglourious Basterds, one finds the official tastemakers singing a familiar song.

Rex Reed of the New York Observer had no problem at all with Tarantino's backwardness, writing that "Like all Quentin Tarantino movies, Inglourious Basterds is exasperating, absurd, cruel, cynical, sneeringly arrogant, racist, elitist, naïvely derivative and viciously funny. It is also one whale of a rigorous entertainment."

David Edelstein of New York magazine writes, "It's an unabashed wet dream of vengeance. Yet watching Raine grill a kneeling commandant astride scalped Nazis while a nearby Jew (filmmaker Eli Roth) with a baseball bat takes scary practice swings, you so wish it had . What's not to love?"

...As it is, Tarantino's use of World War II and the Nazis in his latest work is entirely false and gratuitous. Tarantino's motivation for setting his film during the Second World War had nothing to do with making sense of that period, the history of which he rewrites at virtually every step of the way. Rather, as Tarantino told the Los Angeles Times, he thought "It'd be really cool to do a spaghetti Western using World War II iconography." In other words, the war is simply another setting Tarantino can exploit and use as his own playground for self-indulgence.

The director may also be making an attempt to answer those who thought his last film, the horrible "double feature" Grindhouse, was too trivial. If this time he makes his sadistic killers into Nazi-hunters, who can complain? Certainly not the film "critics."

Tarantino's work winds its way to a brutal conclusion after a very long two-and-a-half hours. In that time, one has seen a number of people killed and history rewritten. One is already eager to head for the door, but Tarantino manages to give viewers one more push in that direction.

In the film's final moments, Aldo Raine carves a swastika into the forehead of a prominent Nazi. This, like the rest of the film's violence, is shown in graphic detail. The camera angle then changes so that we see Aldo from the tortured Nazi's point of view. Raine looks at his carving (and into the camera) and says proudly to a comrade and to the viewers in the audience, "I think this might just be my masterpiece." The film ends with this comment. It is a moment that deserves to go down as one of the most cynical in recent film history...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/sep2009/bast-s01.shtml


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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. you either get Tarantino or you don't
those who don't get it should not try to write reviews because they sound like idiots
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. because he is an idiot
lowest common denominator rules, Dude.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. exhibit A
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
136. I don't read anything by Jonathan Swift
He says it's OK to EAT BABIES!!!11111oneoneoneleven
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #136
152. Literary allusions FTW!
:woohoo:
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
242. If you call Skittles a "dude", she just may have to KICK YOUR ASS!
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. there's nothing to "get".
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. there's plenty to get
you just don't
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I'm with you skittles...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
96. I'm with Hannah
There's nothing to get. Tarantino only flings violence all over the place because his mother was successful in potty-training him.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. describe it to me, then. the things you "get".
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. +1 : It was great fun and a good film on many levels.
and very funny.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. "great" "good" "funny"
= empty
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Whatever.
I'm lazy. I put way too much time in writing essays for the innumerable film history classes I've taken to want to write anything more than that.

I like Tarantino. You don't. Big deal.

The review you posted had a lot of words but was also empty, imo.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. "good" "great" "funny" are all demonstrably empty words, all referencing
the speaker's subjective response to something. there's nothing there for anyone outside the speaker's subjectivity to understand why.

so you can *say* the wsws review is "empty," but there's demonstrably some content that lets others understand the writer's opinion of the film.

in your contentless, solipsistic "opinions" there's zero.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. All film criticism is opinion. Nothing more.
Like I said below, the review you posted is nothing more than a bunch of hate filled run-on sentences. Very subjective to the person who wrote it and only useful to someone who shares his fanatical dislike of Tarantino.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. i don't think you want to engage on any serious level on either the "opinion" portion
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 05:12 AM by Hannah Bell
or the review itself, so i won't bother. i'll just respond in like terms: i disagree.

that leaves us with nothing further to say. so one wonders why you troubled yourself.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. That's fine. That's really all you've done in this thread so far anyway.
Apart from posting someone else's wordy 'argument'. But it's 3am and I don't blame you ;-)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. you've already told me there's no ground for discussion in matters of opinion.
so why would i waste my time discussing with you?

besides which, it's you who are tired. so you said. this is my day.
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junkiebrewster Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #48
100. Have you seen it?
Or are you just flinging poo yourself?

I will go on record as saying the bar scene is one of the most suspensful scenes I've ever seen.

And, like most Tarintino films, the dialogue is top notch.

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #100
165. I'm betting we'll be waiting a while for any answer to that one
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TommyO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #100
233. I saw the movie last night, and you're absolutely right about the bar scene
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #41
235. You are on an opinion site; you can't really knock opinion
The question film reviewers (and all reviewers) try to answer is "What was attempted?" "Was it a successful attempt?" and "Was it worth attempting?" This film review answers all three questions and is thus a competent review; that said I'm not sure I agree with the analysis. I don't think that Tarantino spends even a nano-second thinking about the political climate before making his movies. Rather I take him at face value; he made this movie on this subject because he thought it would be kick-ass. He may be right (I am going to see the movie on Labor Day). The worst you can accuse him of is indifference.

The question is whether or not all art should reflect carefully on the times in which it is created. Should Tarentino have thought a bit about this subject and concluded "I need to make an anti war movie instead!" I don't know that I want to see a Tarantino anti-war film.

Bryant
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #41
240. I didn't see a single run-on sentence. Can you give one example?
You said there were a bunch of them. The writing looks first-rate to me.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
176. now you're just making a fool of yourself. can't to just stick to political failthreads comrade?
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 03:01 PM by dionysus
:rofl:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
91. Uh, yes there is. Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean there's nothing to get.
He's not my favorite film maker, but I definitely get what he's doing. Tarantino is basically doing the film equivalent of early hip hop -- namely, creating something new (usually funny) based on "quoting" other cultural artifacts -- Japanese Samurai films, Hong Kong kung fu, 50s and 60s comics, 1970s Blaxploitation films, spaghetti westerns, and 1950s and 60s pulp fiction.

I don't think I'll see Basterds, and haven't like some of his films, but some of them are pretty good.

I've been watching lots and lots of Japanese samurai films from the post war era -- they are on an independent film channel here -- and before I saw them, I didn't get Tarantino either. Once you've seen lots of the major Japanese samurai films, Tarantino makes lots of sense. As you watch a Tarantino film, you see scene after scene paying direct homage to famous scenes in Japanese and Chinese movies.

Ironically, because of the Japanese film code at the time, samurai fights were highly stylized with almost no blood or actual cutting. One thing Tarantino is asking is, what would a 50s samurai film look like if we were able to see the consequences of this violence.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. thanks for the exposition on bricolage, hampton. it justifies reservoir dogs & pulp fiction.
not the remakes.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
131. I'm with you
He can write good dialogue when he wants to but his movies don't add up to anything. I'd rather watch the Original Sam Peckinpah.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. So you do, do you?


Then please tell me how the article is wrong about the importance of WW2 for the movie?

I love this "I get it, you don't shit" - especially when the people making these claims can't even explain what we aren't getting.

His new movie is just more proof that Tarantino is nothing but a spoiled brat who watched too much TV as a kid ..... I saw it (had to) and yeah... the article is spot on ... WW2 is just the stage, the costumes, not the substance. It is an offensive and childish movie. Just about as bad as the boring rest of his oeuvre, but viler, his self-contempt really comes out this time.

But then again. The new kids on the block seem to get it. Maybe I'll just leave it to them.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
80. I am a T. fan. This outing disappointed me. I do think it is ridiculous to give T. a hard time
for violence and sadism in what is obviously a nazi gore exploitation film. It's like going to a porn movie and complaining about the sex. That said, this film left plenty to be desired for this Tarentino fan.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
124. Please explain what I'm "not getting".
I'm a filmmaker and I miss his point.

I honestly want to know.

give my your perspective.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
212. Those who argue that those who disagree with them "don't get it"
or are idiots, are usually the fucking idiot.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. so he did us all a favor with the ridiculous misspellings.....
which remove any interest in whatever that BS is about....

and this review unreadable... not worth the bother. Good luck QT!!
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. 88% on the Tomato Meter and it's raked in 73 million in a couple weeks
no luck needed
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. wow, so lots of people "get" it. lots of people "get" jerry springer, too.
or oprah, or cheetos.
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SergeStorms Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
81. And a vast majority of Americans........
believed George Bush when he said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Your point?

A majority of Americans are idiots. That's a fact.

I find Tarantino crude, vulgar and just plain creepy. I can see why so many Americans like his movies. They're idiots. And he certainly knows his audience.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #81
205. LOL!
:D Welcome to DU! :hi:


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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #205
211. Another beaut!
Very funny
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
7. Bleh
Whenever someone conditions art with "post 9/11 world", I vomit a little. Art it timeless, and when it reflects the state of affairs, it always does so in a way that appeals to emotions, not reason. Trying to find politically correct reasons for a movie plot is daft beyond belief, and I'm infinitely grateful that artists such as QT so deliberately and purposefully counter that notion.

The review reminds me of movies about the Balkans "Pretty Village, Pretty Flame" and "No Man's Land". They were recorded as a tragi-comedic pitch of the Balkan war, pretty much WHILE the war was going on. Both sides shooting at each other paused to agree that it takes a grand artist to make one giggle at jokes in such a setting.

Wars and crimes come and go. Art persists and prevails.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. "art" doesn't exist & tarantino wouldn't be "art" even if there were such a thing.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. LOL
give it up :rofl:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. I can defend my argument. I notice you can't even explain what there is to "get" in
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 03:59 AM by Hannah Bell
tarantino.

just puerile "you're so square" bullshit.

tarantino = oprah with blood
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Allow me to help you
The 'truly hip' think he's a genius.
If you don't, you're a Philistine.

It's kind of like crappy art that people rave about.
If you don't idolize it the mock you.

They can't defend their position because they don't understand why they love it.
They just love it because it's a tarantino
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. You just "don't get "it" " .... lol

It sounds so Freudian when people say "you don't get "it" ". In fact, I think they mean the Freudian "it" when they say that but they just don't get it.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Exactly
Art is in no way subjective. If it's bad, it's bad.

Also, these fans of Quentin are totally going off on anyone who has an opinion about his movies. In a post 9/11 world, they should all shut up and face the fact that the post 9/11 world loves different movies. Movies where torture doesn't exist and is not up for discussion.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
44. So defend it. Actually - what *is* your argument?
You've just posted someone else's vitriolic essay so far. Or did you personally write that?

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. "vitriolic"? why, it's just someone's "opinion". & as you've already told me,
if you don't "get" it, you don't. it's either your cup of tea, or it's not. there's nothing to discuss, everything is a matter of personal subjectivity.

there's no common ground to evaluate matters of taste.

so why are you still here?

you've offered up your "opinion" & you work very hard in film class, so go take a nap.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. That's a great explanation of your 'argument'. Thank you.
you've probably had to write essays for film classes too, lol.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. that was your argument. never had a film class. but you are tired.
i'm not sure why this bullshit takes less effort than telling me what you find "good, great, funny" in tarantino.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. I'll tell you, and then I'm going to bed.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 05:49 AM by Matariki
I could write quite a bit of what I find good and funny in Tarantino's films - from his brilliant homage to Durga in Kill Bill to his playful exploration of the *idea* of movies and of how people see movies in his newest film - actually in all his films. However I have the distinct impression that whatever I write will be rudely met by you, and not discussed 'seriously' at all.

You've asserted that you presented some sort of weighty argument against Tarantino *somewhere*, but you've been as lazy as anyone in this thread - and whenever I ask you about it you deflect the question by insulting me. Proving, in my mind anyway, that you don't actually have an argument - just a subjective hatred of all things Tarantino.

So go on, knock yourself out and insult me some more - or write, in your own words, why you think IG was a shite film.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. "whatever I write will be rudely met by you, and not discussed 'seriously' at all."
i think you'd better reread the thread, particularly your own remarks.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
35. Hard to argue with that
If there is no art, there is no critic. That makes your post an opinion. If I were to state that you're free to shove that opinion where the sun don't shine, that would also be an opinion.

If only we could agree that it's fine to like or dislike a movie regardless of 9/11 brainwashing, life would be grand.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. is someone preventing someone from having "opinions"?
is someone telling others they may not like or dislike as they please?

hardly.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
164. #16 ^^^ is why I'll never be a communist
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 02:28 PM by anigbrowl
The sort of people who claim art doesn't exist tend to be the sort of people who enthusiastically endorse imprisoning those who want to be artists.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
172. what do you have against quentin comrade?
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
210. You do realize
that millions of people and centuries of art, artists, and aficionados disagree with this perspective? Art is man made, and inspires emotion. The emotion can be positive, negative, strong or subtle. Have you ever been moved to tears or brought up by a song? Have you ever felt anxiety at a play or screen performance or by a book? Have you ever felt nostalgic while listening to a classical composure? Have you ever marveled at the deep emotion inspired by the simplest of words? If the answer to all of these questions is no, you have no heart. If the answer to any is yes, you have acknowledged the existence of art. I pity anyone who can't appreciate art.

The simple fact that so much emotion has been expended in the op and the 200+ posts proves that this movie is, in fact, art...whether you choose to accept it or appreciate it is irrelevant.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #210
215. Well said.
Isn't it ironic that even HB's posts that say there is no art are proof that there is?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #215
221. isn't it ironic you don't have any idea what i'm talking about, & don't even bother to
check your assumptions by asking?

pretty much like most folks on this thread.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #221
222. You are saying there is no such thing as art.
And the irony is that all of the posts you have made are evidence of art's existence. If it is purposeful, your irony that is, then it is a sort of performance art and doubly ironic.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #222
227. but you don't know what i mean; you just assume i mean what you do.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #227
234. it doesn't matter what you mean
The fact that this movie got such a rise out of you (I think without you even seeing it) means that it is art, and therefore art exists.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #210
220. ?
"millions of people and centuries of art, artists, and aficionados disagree with this perspective?"

the views of others, even a majority, are no guide to "truth".


"Art is man made, and inspires emotion."

"art inspires emotion" = limited definition of "art". many things inspire emotion, & some "art" doesn't.


"The simple fact that so much emotion has been expended in the op and the 200+ posts proves that this movie is, in fact, art...whether you choose to accept it or appreciate it is irrelevant."

proves no more than a thread with 200 comments about pedophiles or dead white girls.


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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #220
228. "many things inspire emotion, & some "art" doesn't. "
Art is subjective. Not all are inspired emotionally by any one object of art, but someone is emotionally inspired by all art. Very few hip hop, or twangy country songs inspir me emotionally, for me to then proclaim they are not art based on my own emotions is arrogance of the highest order. Some people are more inclined to the emotional effects of art than others but nearly everyone is moved by some. Those artists and objects of art which move a higher proportion of people are often viewed as masterpieces. Again only a closed, analytical, almost robot like mind is required not to be moved by at least some art, in some genre, of some kind.

"the views of others, even a majority, are no guide to "truth"."

And denial of near universal truths doesn't an intellectual make...a fool disregards the wisdom of the masses and the ages in favor of obscure, abstract theories...some of which (theories that is) are actually very artistic..
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #228
229. so glenn beck = art because he inspires emotion? this linkage of art & emotion
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 05:42 AM by Hannah Bell
doesn't distinguish "art" from anything else. people have emotions. many things provoke them. that a picture or song provokes an emotional reaction doesn't make it different from scenery, or puppies, or gold, or the nice trellis i just built. it doesn't give it some unique essence.

"the masses" have not believed in the existence of "art" for centuries, contrary to your assumption.

"art" = a time & class-bound phenomenon.

"art" in the sense you apparently mean it has a birth moment.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #229
243. Glen Beck?
Well maybe, I suppose..

"that a picture or song provokes an emotional reaction doesn't make it different from scenery, or puppies, or gold, or the nice trellis i just built. it doesn't give it some unique essence."

Since scenery, puppies and raw gold aren't human creations.. Your trellis? Maybe..there is a distinction between art and craft but that is a whole other conversation.

""the masses" have not believed in the existence of "art" for centuries, contrary to your assumption."

No assumption, demonstrable fact..perhaps the first art was in the form of body adornment, tattoos, piercing, beads, scarification. Music, dance, story telling, religious symbolism, residential adornment, clothing...creativity and appreciation of beauty.

""art" = a time & class-bound phenomenon."

All classes have been appreciating art for centuries, as I previously stated..some more than others, art takes a backseat to health and sustenance.

To try to explain art to someone with no appreciation for it is like trying to describe blue to a blind person.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
226. Art doesn't exist?
How incredibly stupid of you. Really.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
27. No Man's land comnpares to IG ? Really?
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 04:24 AM by Democracyinkind
NML was not a splatter movie! Totally not. The critique of NML was in no ways on the same ground as the critique of IG. Or is that just my European perspective?

NML was critized for many things but not for being a vile, chldish depiction of violent "revenge". I imagine Tarantino to be a big hit in Baluchistan. Just more proof that the world can seem to be flat.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. NML compares to IG
Not in terms of genre or critical perception, but in terms of taking a different spin on a wartime setting.

I compared NML and the reviews it received in the relevant Balkan region with the American review of IG, as these are regions that were burdened by the war/9-11 anger. Bottom line, NML didn't get a single bad review over here that I'm aware of.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. I think there is a big difference in how NML and IG take a different spin on a wartime setting.


Though I am, like you (I guess) more a l'art-pour-la'rt guy myself, I found the brilliance of the NML narrative to be very enlightening - there is very much to take home from that movie - Emotionally and intellectually. IG just didn't do that for me, it didn't stimulate me to think about the narrative or the complexity of human existence in war. The WW2 stage just seems so random, the movie would "work" in any setting and with any uniforms, and that's where I see the main difference. I feel like NML tells me something, instead of just entertaining me - I'm not the kind of guy who can't laugh about a funny war setting, or who can't rejoice in seeing the Nazis beaten on the screen, but the overall narrative has to appeal to me/involve me - something IG failed to do for me.

Come to think of it, I think the only reason for the paricular setting of IG is to have a feel-good splatterfest, it seems to be nothing more than a conceptual pre-emptive excuse for the shallowness of the movies narrative. But hey' that's just me, I think you've got a point too, especially what you said about the reviews. I just think the difference in depth/approach to those movies makes it hard to analyze them both in light of their "different spins on a wartime setting" - my main point is that the wartime setting in IG is totally random and replaceable and has no other purpose than to appease our revulsion to seeing people getting slaughtered, tortured, etc.

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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. That makes sense
Though I see Americans up in arms about the movie's concession that the good ole US soldier crossed the line. While the setting is replaceable, this point holds strong meaning for the primary audience. I assume much in the same way as NML speaks to me personally and ethnically, and tells me much much more than the average 'foreigner'.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. "to appease our revulsion to seeing people getting slaughtered, tortured"
the purpose of all good guy/bad guy narratives. the "artful" tarantino just ups the violence level, while winking at the audience - or to a certain element in it.

for me, that wink is the most disgusting thing about tarantino. not the wink per se, but the uses to which he puts it.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #45
55. I think that is the point other people are neglecting in this thread.

It's not about us people "who wish themselves back to the Eisenhower days (whatever that means)", it's not about establishing taboos on depictions of violence but it is about an honest appeal to question what ends (moral,intellectual,emotional) the depicted violence is used and how that relates to the setting/overall narrative of the movie.

Somehow I feel like I get your point. I'm not disgusted by the depiction of torture/slaughter that QT uses, I am disgusted by the way the narrative/setting is misused to make me feel good about it - and that's where my main critique, the randomness of the setting sets in. This is not a movie about world war two, about the Nazis, or about the fullness of human experience in wartime settings - and critiques using those kind of arguments to defend their simple lust for blood are despicable.

To make a comparison: I hate "Hostel" too. But that movie seems more honest to me. The narrative doesn't make pseudoplausible excuses for the depicted violence, everyone who went to watch that movie knew why they did so and for what, there was no false hiding behind "art" or "history" - but it seems QT isn't up to leaving the smoke and mirrors all out in his own movies, even if it would help a great deal to see his art for what it is.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. i haven't seen hostel, but i take your point, & basically agree.
and the kool kids' assumption that if you don't like taratino, you must be an old fart nostalgic for eisenhower is just funny. they imagine tarantino's use of violence/sex is transgressive.

it's not. those barriers came down long ago. it's like the marquis de sade; the repetition numbs & ultimately deadens.

commodified numbing phony transgression, suitable for our commodified, numbed, phony times.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. " The past didn't go anyhwere " - for some people, apparently, it did.


I feel the late Utah Phillips turning in his grave sometimes.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #59
117. I find this discussion interesting
because I am not a fan of Tarantino. At all. But, I did see and enjoy Inglorious Basterds. Perhaps I entered the theater with the full knowledge that this film was written and directed by someone who has masturbatory fantasies about women getting revenge. Probably not the best information justifying my entrance into the theater. But... in spite of that, I found myself enjoying the film. A lot. I thought that the acting by Christophe Waltz and Diane Kruger was amazing. Tarantino's too cute dialog often annoys the crap out of me, but I think that he filmed three really incredible tension filled scenes in this film. (The opening scene, the scene in the bar, and the scene in which Landa and Kruger's character were sitting in the office in the movie theater.)

The re-writing of history was laughable... or should be... but it saddens me to think that a whole slew of people will probably believe that Hitler died in a movie theater like depicted in the film.

What I found truly fascinating was that the re-working of history, often cited in German reviews as cathartic, didn't stop Tarantino from not really giving the main villain in this film his comeuppance. Landa escaped to Nantucket. Sure, he had a swastika carved into his forehead, but I found the injustice of the ending to be a huge statement about evil in this world.

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daedalus_dude Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
8. It seems like Tarantino doesn't buy into "it is not the troops fault".
;)

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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
9. This sums up the critic in this piece: "Munich, in many ways a remarkable film..."
I found Munich bloated and at a number of points cringable...

While I haven't seen Tarrantino's new film yet, I am looking forward to it...
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. And that bit about so many despising Munich
and are now praising IG. Munich was critically well received. If he resorts to invention, who is he to decry the state of "intellectual and cultural life"?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. compared to what?
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 04:07 AM by Hannah Bell
Munich "top critic" reviews 59%

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/munich/?critic=creamcrop


Inglorious b's "top critic" reviews 74%

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/inglourious_basterds/?critic=creamcrop



Those = the pros.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Metacritic uses pros too
Munich: 74

http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/munich?q=munich

Inglourious Basterds: 69

http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/inglouriousbasterds?q=Inglourious%20Basterds

Either way, Munich was not excoriated, there weren't "so many despising" it in contrast to praise heaped on IG. He's bullshitting just to put a point on his point.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. "That so many critics despised Munich and are now praising Tarantino's latest film"
I would guess the reference is to the art-house brand of critic (l, e.g. the village voice's thumbs up for qt & thumbs down for munich & industry insider take e.g. variety.

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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Could be
He should've said so, if that's what he meant. I still think he was stretching it when he didn't need to.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
153. Munich got a 77% overall on RT.
Either way, it's laughable to say that it wasn't critically acclaimed.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
103. I really liked Munich, a great, underrated film the critics completely misunderstood
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 08:15 AM by HamdenRice
The problem with Munich is that it's one of those films you have to see several times to get. Moreover, the first critics' snap judgments on what the film was "about" caused other critics and audiences to misunderstand the point of the film. The film was described as being about the morality of Israel's policy of revenge toward the Palestinians who carried out the Munich attacks. That is part of what it's about, but only superficially.

The film is actually a very, very sophisticated critique of the intelligence world, and a revisionist look -- an accurate revisionist look -- at the Mossad.

The key moments of the film are not when Israeli Mossad agents are assassinating Palestinians; or even when the Israeli team is debating whether what they are doing is right; it's when various other intelligence agents and forces are counter attacking the Mossad, and the main character comes to the slow realization that he's a complete amateur and has no idea what he's actually doing, and who he can trust. (The Mossad would become a world class intelligence agency, but the film is saying that at that point in history, they weren't yet, and were quite incompetent, being led by a guy whose experience consisted of little more than being a bodyguard to Golda Meier.)

Both Spielberg and the screenwriter (Tony Kushner who wrote the theater masterpiece Angels in America) were interested in historical detail, and revisionism. The film was loosely based on the memoires of a Mossad agent who actually was part of that team and his confusion about what had happened to him.

A conventional telling would be the Israelis tracking down the Palestinians responsible for the Munich attack. Instead they are plunged into an increasingly incomprehensible world of French free-lancer intelligence agencies, a Dutch assassin for hire, a vengeful and ruthless KGB, and American CIA that double crosses without conscience.

The turning point and key scene that is easily overlooked is when the Mossad agents are about to kill a Palestinian on a European street and they are accosted by a group of American "businessmen" and get into a completely inexplicable fist fight. Later, they realize that the businessmen were CIA agents protecting the Palestinian.

By the end, the main character, Avner can't trust his French manipulators and can't even trust his Mossad handlers. So in that sense, it's classic noire -- about a person trying to be moral in a completely immoral world. It's not really about whether the Israelis were justified in going after the Palestinians the way they did, which is what the critics wrote about endlessly.




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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #103
129. Once was enough... I got 'it' just fine with Spielberg's ham-fisted
directing. The most cringe-worthy scene was the 'sex' scene. Thanks Stephen, we get it already, DANG...!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
104. I haven't seen Munich, but I saw Basterds: it's bloated/ moves at a snail's pace.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 08:12 AM by JVS
Perhaps we have a couple cases of directors deciding that they don't need to work on moving through the plot.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. OK, I'm stupid. What is IG?
Wouldn't Inglorious Basterds be IB?
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #105
169. I've been having a good chuckle that that myself
Kinda tells you whose brains are in gear and whose not :-)
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
171. munich was pretty boring to me.
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CrawlingChaos Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R - I'll definitely pass on this crap
I'm a horror fan and not opposed to violent entertainment, but this movie, based on what I've read and seen in clips, offends me for a number of reasons.

Btw, I'm noticing that the word of mouth on this is terrible and yet it scores so well with reviewers? Once again I find myself suspecting a pre-paid arrangement with critics.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. "pre-paid arrangement with critics" - wouldn't be the first time.
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
34. Or maybe you move in different circles
If it's not for you, it's not for you. Being offended by a movie is retarded though.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. You never saw Ghost Rider, then?
:)
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
209. have you seen this?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #34
42. why would you decide i am "offended"? why do you think criticism/discussion of this "art"
you all believe exists should be limited to good/bad/i like it/i don't like it?

why do you think that "moving in different circles" should exclude one from grasping this "art"?

is the role of "art" to speak only to its initiates & cultists? and only in monosyllablic polarities of good/bad/yes/no?
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Not at all
But your review stated it was bad as fact, and in no way leaned it as a personal opinion.

While I may not 'get' Picasso in his cubist days, and while I would never want Three Musicians hanging in my living room, I don't dispute its artistic value. And in any opinion I may state on it, I'll make clear that I don't appreciate it personally, instead of calling it a load of crap.

But then... I acknowledge the existence of art.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
56. it's not "my" review. and a review of something is implicitly the reviewer's "opinion". So why you
should be "offended" because he doesn't say "in my opinion," or "i think," or "it's my judgement that" every sentence is unclear to me.

is there some reason it's beyond the pale to dispute the artistic merits of picasso's cubist period? i don't see why.

but then, i don't acknowledge the existence of "Art," just the existence of art.

Nor "Artists".
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #34
50. it's beyond retarded
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #50
60. high critique, there. of course, no one's "offended," but if you're 12 you won't get that.
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CrawlingChaos Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
73. Speaking of retarded
Ironic you should bring up Picasso, who painted Guernica, one of the most iconic anti-war images ever created, in defense of a sadistic, cartoonish wartime revenge fantasy being served up at a time when the public is already disturbingly desensitized to horrific war crimes of the here and now. I'm not patronizing anything that glorifies war. Fuck that shit.

And I DO get Tarantino, and I very much get his stylized homage to a particular genre of film. It's just that, IMO, his films are often BAD. Reservoir Dogs worked, but from there he became increasingly self-indulgent and tedious.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. +1. nt
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Ghost of Tom Joad Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #73
116. "bad" I'm curious
bad cinematography?
bad editing?
bad sound?
bad writing?
bad acting?
bad mise en scene?

if so explain. I can understand "I don't like it." but I'm always curious when someone says bad.
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CrawlingChaos Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #116
168. The semantics bothers you?
In any event, a movie is more than the sum of it's parts. How many epic blockbusters have you seen where no expense was spared utilizing the best cinematographer, the best sound, etc only to have the end result be an absolute dud?

In Tarantino's case, I would say the major problems revolve around an excess of insipid dialog that often goes on insufferably long, lack of much-needed editing and lately, a increasingly tedious predictability. He's capable of some good stuff, but IMO his overestimation of his own brilliance has taken it's toll on the quality of his work.

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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
39. There's nothing smart in that review
Just a bunch of run on sentences as the reviewer indulges in his irrational hatred of Tarantino - it almost seems personal.

Clearly the reviewer didn't 'get it'. There's subtle humor in the film - for instance Tarantino pokes fun at his audience a bit with the parallel of Hitler laughing at the stacked up deaths in the film within the film - a little Hitler in everyone. I could go on, but you clearly have a deep dislike of Tarantino and will certainly be dismissive of any of the reasons I liked the film, so I'm not going to waste my time.

BTW, you are breaking DU's four paragraph rule with your OP.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #39
52. hear hear
I don't have the time or the patience to waste on people who don't get it
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. That makes you look really smart.

We were looking forward to discussing with you. I guess I'm not the only person on this thread who'd love to see what I am "Not getting".

The concept of a "discussion board" really appeals you, don't it?

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #52
67. lol, philistines!
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
127. film snobbery.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 10:09 AM by Javaman
I have been a filmmaker for many many years and I have heard that argument time and time again from people who like to appear to like to appear to have the insight but are unable to convey their thoughts clearly. aka bull artists.

by just declaring that "you don't get it" clearly indicates that you are unable to adequately convey your thoughts or opinions. It's an old film school dullard tact.

I enjoy Goddard very much, but I'm at least adult enough to say, "I don't know why" to someone wanting to know, rather then saying "you don't get it".

At the same time, I'm also able to convey why the French New Wave was a pivotal point in cinema to someone interested rather than using the juvenile excuse of "you just don't get it".

So, I'm throwing down the challenge, please explain, what myself and others "don't get" about this film.
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CrawlingChaos Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #127
163. Glad you brought up Godard
I don't think many of his fans realize how much Tarantino, er, shall we say, appropriates from the likes of Godard and Truffaut. Unfortunately he gets a lot of credit for blazing trails where the French New Wave filmmakers have already been.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
64. i agree with you on the writing: i find a lot of the wsws content - non-succinct.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 06:09 AM by Hannah Bell
otoh, you seem unable to assess criticism as anything other than "personal".

"will certainly be dismissive of any of the reasons I liked the film"

it's funny - it's you who's been dismissive of the review presented, yet i'm still willing to discuss it & the film. i don't expect everyone to agree with me before initiating discussion.

you aren't willing to expose your arguments to discussion at all unless someone agrees with you.

& then you fink me out for breaking the "rules."

how very hip & transgressive of you.

but don't worry, wsws gives permission to use their content so long as credit is given.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #39
138. I saw Hitler laughing it up at the violence on the screen
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 11:06 AM by sudopod
and suddenly became aware of where I was and what I was doing. :p
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
46. I loved it---Loved Kill Bill one and two..
Pulp Fiction...Reservoir Dogs...etc....

Let me guess--- you're against violent video games as well.. quote from above; "certain social moods find expression in them'... so do you think those who play Grand Theft Auto are finding expression in them?

You're review is the typical simplistic views of the Ozzie and Harriet knuckleheads who long for the Eisenhower days.

Hey---I heard Marley and me is still playing at the one dollar movies...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #46
68. "Let me guess--- you're against violent video games as well"
let me guess - you can't think except in terms of such stereotyped categories - the unhip old lady yelling "get off my lawn, you kids!"
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #68
93. "the unhip old lady yelling "get off my lawn, you kids"!
This quote: "certain social moods find expression in them' kind of gives you away and yes I think you're a a unhip old lady yelling "get off my lawn, you kids!
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. well, that's "your opinion," & opinions are all equally valid & unvalid, as the hipsters tell me.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
62. Tarantino is a one trick pony,
And he keeps trying to repackage that trick in different scenarios, very few of which actually fit.

Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction matched up well with Tarantino's singular trick, but few other of his films since then have.

I doubt that I'll see Inglorious Basterds, certainly not in the theater, and I doubt on DVD. I don't have the time to waste on the same shit I've seen over and over.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
107. Yup. Reservoir Dogs shocked me with it's "comic" violence and torture.
I don't need or want to be desensitized by any
more of his movies.

I don't walk away from QT movies feeling that
his life parodies have helped me appreciate life more
fully.

I personally don't care for the combination of
humor and murder or humor and torture. I think
it belittles us all, and may even have the effect
of legitimizing revenge fantasies in immature
individuals.



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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #62
218. Thank you! n/t
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
66. I liked it.Fun movie.
Yeah,history was rewritten.It wasn't a biopic.Gory at points,but also ...cathartic.Just know before you go these things,and have fun.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
69. Be careful what you hate
as you will be bound to take on those tendencies yourself. Wasn't planning on seeing this one... now won't for sure. Thanks for posting.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
70. I found the movie to be good and interesting...
interesting in the way it was done and how the story was told. It is not movie about history, nor is it when Star Trek would do basically the same thing when they would jump back in the timeline; was the exploitation of an historical event?

Anyway, the movie is good even though it is rather long. I enjoy Quentin's films, from Pulp Fiction to Inglorious Basterds.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:07 AM
Response to Original message
71. Hannah Bell: please review the DU copyright rules
"Do not post entire copyrighted articles. If you wish to reference an article, provide a brief excerpt and include a link to the original source. Generally, excerpts should not exceed three or four paragraphs."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Please pay attention to this rule in future.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. wsws gives permission to post entire articles so long as they are credited.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. how unfortunate for us.
we have the dreary prospect of looking forward to an endless parade of long winded, often blatantly dishonest, semi-literate articles.

Oh, and I'm not a Tarantino aficionado.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. yes, isn't it? unfortunate for you, i mean.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. Not really, Ms.Bell. You seem to tone deaf to the amusement and snark
in my post. really, wsw is a source of amusement to me. It's a delicious and unwitting parody. better than the onion.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #79
88. you think i'm tone deaf to your snark? au contraire, mon frere. je suis tres
cognizant de el snarko de tu.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #75
99. ROFL!
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 08:38 AM by HamdenRice
Yeah, too bad they let their stuff get copied without limit. It's kind of like them saying, "here's my outhouse; reach down in the pit and take whatever you want without limit!!1!"

And of course, there are people who will take up the offer and fling the product all over DU's walls.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. They claim copyright at the bottom of the article
If you're familiar with the site owners, perhaps could you ask them to put that waiver somewhere visible, like the copyright claim is? It's next to useless if no-one can see it.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #77
86. I've emailed them on their policy re discussion boards before. There's also this:
"The WSWS observes a very liberal policy regarding the reprinting of our material by other publications. We have many such requests, and we generally allow our articles to be reprinted by reputable and progressive publications, provided they give proper attribution to the WSWS."


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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #86
160. Little problem there, Hannah.
You are neither a reputable nor a progressive publication.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #160
174. as i said, i've emailed them re discussion boards. they have no problem with
posting their material so long as content is not misrepresented & they're credited.

i posted the info on republication to show their general stance toward copying their material.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #72
159. Not according to the bottom of their main page
"Copyright © 1998-2009 World Socialist Web Site - All rights reserved"

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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
74. This was a disappointing, overhyped film that lacks the coherency and economy that he is capable of.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 06:16 AM by zonkers
It was too long and got boring -- it actually felt like a rough cut. I bet they tried a shorter version but it just felt hollow and they went with the long one. As it is, we have an epic length film with a less than epic plot and execution. Yeah I am glad I saw it just to ease my curiosity. I was real excited about seeing it -- I am a big Tarentino fan. And I still think he is a treasure in spite of this outing

All the complaints about the violence in his films are ridiculous considering this is an exploitation genre film and must be regarded within that context. Yes it is in poor taste but so what.

For what it's worth, I think Tarentino's self admitted XTC use during the making of Kill Bill has sort of fried his brain. While there were terrific set pieces in I.B., the film felt short of leaving me satisfied. For what it's worth, I think Pulp Fiction is Quentin's best. It just seems so much more brilliant than anything he has done. It still dazzles. also like the script for True Romance.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #74
126. I am of a similar mind as you.
I loved Res Dogs, Pulp Fiction, and Jackie Brown. Didn't see the Kill Bill movies. I had no problem with the violence. In fact, I would have liked more. The movie was just boring and uncompelling. I ended up drinking and chatting with my neighbor.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #126
155. How did I leave out JB? That film is so "rewachable" which Is the real test. Good old Ordelle,
And his little surfer girl Melanie. And Jackie of course. I forgot the DeNiro character's name.
Max Cherry, bail bondsman was the part of a lifetime for Robert Forster as was "Jackie" for Grier. I love this film.

When you start with Elmore Leonard as source material, well, you are ahead of the game. Not that you can't screw it up. Tarentino did a great job. The music was great. Like Basterds, this film came in at over two hours but in this case, I did not mind it a bit. I think this and Pulp Fiction are his best.

See you at the movies.
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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
82. I loved Basterds -
- although it was a bit wordy in spots. I enjoyed his unique use of humor is dramatic situations. I'm a big Kill Bill fan, too.

Some like his stuff, some don't. Who cares? No one is being forced to see the movie so I don't see the reason for all the angst over who does and doesn't "get" Tarintino.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
83. Another train unrec of a post from WSWS!
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #83
89. yes, & you presence ties up the package with a pretty banking bow!
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
84. This is in GD why?
We have a place for movie reviews, it's called the Lounge.
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3dfan Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
85. like it!
I enjoyed the movie - interesting point of view on Second World War - love it! 1o/10
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
87. He thinks he's a noteworthy director like Sergio Leone or Ang Lee
To me all he really seems willing to understand is glitz, kitsch, ultra violence and the calm before the heart-shot...and popcorn he understands popcorn :popcorn:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eBoG2j8ggik/ScE1ljPFygI/AAAAAAAAA6w/Vuc4f4-0pYw/s320/Once+Upon+a+Time+in+America6.jpg
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #87
92. so subtle.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #92
225. Neither is he even Soderbergh or Kurosawa, Tarantino is a ham-handed Peckinpah at best...
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 02:24 AM by bridgit





edit d
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
90. Tarentino is a guy who pushes the boundaries in order to sell movies...
Plane and simple.

I guess if you "get it", you feel a little smug and a sense of privledge...

If you don't get it, then you are so un-cool and don't understand what the joke is...

Tarentino's movies are a lot like Woody Allen movies without the plot, the witty duologue and the very very very young women who are mysteriously drawn to old men...

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #90
97. It's possible to understand what he's trying to do..
but decide that it's not your thing.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #97
108. I don't think he is glorifying violence...
I think he uses it as a plot device and also for the shock value.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. QT's forumla:
He takes a genre and exploits it to the hilt. Sometimes he hits, sometimes he misses.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
98. Didn't Tarantino do the vampire movie Dusk til Dawn?
I will wait for library DVD release to see what all the fuss is about.

"That Barney Rubble! What an actor!"

What movie?
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. That was one of his poorer movies and he wrote it, did not direct it
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 08:06 AM by Jennicut
Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Jackie Brown and Kill Bill were all great movies in my opinion. Depends on what your level of tolerance of violence is, though the violence in Kill Bill is almost cartoonish.
I see it as movies, not a statement on society. Its fiction though the new movies deals with Nazi themes.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
102. I could never afford to go to see this movie, but I will see it if it makes
it to the local $1.oo movie theater.

It must have something to make a marxist like yourself go and see it.

PS- I did go see Whatever Works in the real theater. I saved, and spent, and enjoyed.
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junkiebrewster Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
106. I liked the film
It was a bit long and could have used having some filler cut. Also, it was not near as gory as I thought it would be. However, the SS colonel's perfomance and the bar scene made the movie for me.

Plus, most of the dialogue was top notch, as usual.

We get it, Hannah. You don't like QT. Some of us do.

And I guess my liking QT makes me a dumb American, as stated by someone upthread. Whatever. God forbid I actually enjoy a little entertainment on my weekends. I swear, the intellectual snobbery of some people on this board. It's possible to be smart and enjoy the occasional foray into mindless entertainment. I'm sure if looked at any one person's Ipod (including my own), I could find some music I could lord over them as "dumb."

Grow the fuck up. Different strokes for different folks, or is that too liberal a concept for the art police?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
109. The Trotskyites obviously can't do movie reviews either.
Than again, I like seeing Nazi bastards coming to a horrible end they deserve.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #109
177. !11!!
:spray:
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
111. Fuck Brad Pitt....
...I refuse to see any film that has either half of "brangalina" starring in it.

:puke:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. too bad for you.
if you never see his work, you have no way of knowing what his abilities are. :shrug:
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #113
119. His abilities?
He is a fucking film star ~~ it is not like he is on the level of Jonas Salk or Plato. This is a man who spends monstrous amounts of money on play toys like customized motorcyles, etc., and I am suppose to regret not putting more money in his pocket because I over looked his "abilities"?

:rofl:
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #119
125. Well, Pitt has also spent a great deal of his money and time
building houses for the poor that were wiped out in New Orleans after Katrina. I also thought Pitt was great in the Guy Ritchie film "Snatch".
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #119
133. So whose pockets are you putting money in?
What stars do you like? And are they as pure as you seem to want Brad Pitt to be?
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #133
139. At the moment my money is going to support candidates who are
working for health care reform.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #139
141. Nice dodge.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #141
142. LOL....
...so what answer would fit your agenda?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. How about an honest one?
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #143
146. I gave you one ~~
~~ should I lie to make you feel better? :hi:

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. No, you didn't. You dodged like a coward.
:hi:
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #146
151. Pitt is an unrepetant liberal who puts his own money
into his beliefs. When you help as many people as he does, you can tell him to fuck off.
Meanwhile, you just seem like one of those folks at the healthcare town forums holding up your hate sign.
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #139
182. Golly
I guess you are more liberal than the rest of us assholes....
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #119
175. So why are you taking part in a movie thread?
If you hate movie stars, then your only purpose here can be to shit on the discussion...and 'fuck Brad Pitt' (with no particular reason given, other than that he's 'a fucking film star') seems to fir that theory pretty well.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #111
173. wow, what's with the bitterness against pitt?
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 02:55 PM by dionysus
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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #111
232. haaaa
its not all that bad Jennifer Aniston, you should have been able to find you a man
by now, I'm available....:evilgrin:

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
112. The film-maker has done his job in provoking comment.
The film is a success.

You don't have to buy a ticket if you don't want to.

If you do buy a ticket and go in to watch the film, you don't have to like what you see. Someone else seeing the film might like it just fine.

Art, at its rambunctious best, does not apologize to those who view it.

I unrec'd this post because it is clearly the OP's position that Art -- cinema in this case -- should not do what Tarantino has clearly successfully done, and successfully done in the footsteps of artists across many centuries.


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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
114. I liked this film...
hated Kill Bill and think Pulp Fiction is perhaps the most overrated film of all time, but I really liked Inglorious Basterds.

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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
115. Yeah, yeah. And Charles Barkley's a role model.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
118. I'm glad you have another chance to feel superior.
I know that's important to you.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #118
121. You can either like or hate Tarantino...
but the guy really produces 'entertainment.'

Kill Bill I&II were masterpieces. Helped a lot to have considerable knowledge about Japanese culture to fully appreciate these two films. His other stuff ranges from poor to excellent, most are highly entertaining.

QT does not paint Mona Lisas.

Glad to see so many supporters of the Kill Bill series. Generally, QT's films have extraordinary sound tracks and original music.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
120. Movie Critic Is The Most Useless Job on Earth, Bar None.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 09:50 AM by Toasterlad
I will never understand the rationale behind paying someone to state what he thinks of a form of entertainment that - as the many posts in this thread will attest - everyone view differently. What makes the critic's opinion the slightest bit more valuable than anyone else's?

For what it's worth - which is, like anyone else's opinion, exactly nothing - I loved the movie, and can't wait to see it again.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #120
157. Completely agree! I like Tarantino's movies ...
and look forward to seeing this one.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #120
198. Because the critic (generally) is much more knowledgeable about film.
Hence, he/she would be in a position to accurately review a movie. A real critic will take note of all the elements involved in the film -- direction, cinematography, design, script, etc., whereas the average Joe will say, "I liked Transformers because a lot of shit blew up."

Yes, the average Joe doesn't listen to the critics, but the critic is still much more aware of what a proper film should be.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #198
201. So What?
The filmgoer is still presumably going to interpret the film in his/her own way. If the movie is any good, it will speak for itself. Why would any "proper" movie need someone to explain why it's good?

Film, like all art, is completely subjective. Despite the fact that some people devote their entire lives to the "study" of film-making, their opinion about whether a film is good or bad is no more valid than any clown walking in off the street. All they've succeeded in doing is making themselves feel superior to a bunch of people who haven't wasted their lives studying film.

In other words, I didn't need to spend years in film school to know that Transformers sucked, and that Inglorious Basterds was excellent.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #201
203. But many people loved Transformers, despite the critics.
Are they correct?

A critic's opinion may not be more "valid," but it is certainly more informed. Critics will see the filmmakers' efforts using their own knowledge of the medium while the average Joe will watch anything involving semi-naked women and loud explosions.

Basically, a critic will view a movie critically. In the same way that a non-art person would scoff at a Picasso from a simple glance, an art critic would put the work of art in the context of the field, time period, etc., to give a better understanding of what he was trying to accomplish.

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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #203
207. They Are Absolutely Correct.
If they liked Transformers, then the movie did its job: it entertained them. The fact that you and I consider it a terrible, horrible abortion of cinema doesn't change their enjoyment of it one bit. It only proves once again the subjective nature of art: one man's trash is another man's treasure. To us, Transformers was a terrible movie, to those others, it was a great movie. We are all right, or, if you prefer, none of us are right.

Similarly, if an art critic's view of a Picasso painting is no more or less valid than the non-art person's. The art critic is more knowledgeable about technique, but his OPINION still carries no more weight.

Furthermore, if the artist (painter, sculptor, filmmaker, etc) fails to reach a particular person, it's a failure of the artist to make himself understood, not a failure of the person to understand the artist. Granted, there is no art that will appeal to EVERYONE, and I doubt even the most egotistical artist would be disturbed is his/her work was not UNIVERSALLY loved. But sometimes, of course, the artist is attempting to reach only a specific person or people. Transformers was intended to have mass appeal: ergo, it was a success, because it did have mass appeal. On the other hand, "arty" movies like the Merchant-Ivory films were intended to appeal to more "sophisticated" people, and their success or failure cannot be judged by the same standards one would use to judge Transformers, or GI Joe, or other films of that nature.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
122. Blood porn. nt
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #122
134. ...
:eyes:
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
123. WSWS has movie reviews? nt
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
128. Nonchalant ultra-violence took place during war?
I am shocked and outraged! Shocked I tell you!

lol
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
130. So the reviewer knows what to expect from a Tarantino film...
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 10:26 AM by SidDithers
one finds in this work the same elements one has come to expect from Tarantino's films: gratuitous and psychopathic violence, endless pop culture references, the glorification of revenge, drawn-out and tedious scenes of incidental dialogue, a self-conscious use of camera movement and editing, and pervasive cynicism. All of this is delivered with a sly wink toward the audience.


But then, when that's exactly what is delivered, they're surprised?

OK :eyes:

Sid

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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
132. Whats your input??
all I see here is your taking of an article and pasting it with no input as to how you feel about the movie.

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raouldukelives Donating Member (945 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
135. What an awful movie!
Way too much violence and not enough puppies! Where is a princess mermaid and a singing teapot when you need one?

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #135
179. XD
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
137. I can only hope that we have trolls posting on this thread
because I find it frightening to believe that smart DUers could be so clueless about this movie.
The movie is not meant to be an accurate account of WWII or Nazis or Allied forces. (just like Glenn Beck is not meant to be a factual journalist and that email you got from the "doctor" about the proposed Obamacare is not factual, either. In fact, that doctor doesn't exist.)
This is a movie about movies. It's deliberately theatrical. It's a comic book movie with exaggerated villains and violence. No, Hitler didn't perish in a fire during a film premiere.
This is a movie that is an homage to other movies, and I don't say that as a slam. "Basterds" revels in earlier war and spy movies. It twists the espionage of earlier "serious" movies in lurid and comic ways. It's fantasy.
I get it if you don't like Tarantino movies.
But to criticize this movie because of its dark comic tone makes no sense to me other than you don't "get it."
(by the way, if you're offended by violent movies, don't go to Tarantino movies. I would have thought people would have learned that after "Reservoir Dogs", "Pulp Fiction", and "Kill Bill".)
Again, I really find it hard to believe that DUers are slow learners.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #137
140. I don't think its a matter of people on DU being slow learners...
I think that is a little insulting.

However, I do get your points.

Reservoir Dogs - was okay. I honestly thought it was way over hyped. Pulp Fiction - I thought was excellent and Kill Bill - meh, I found it annoying long just to get to the "punch line". The operatic use of blood was interesting, but not my cup of tea.

You are right, either you like Tarantino's work or not, I find him sort of mediocre. His movies will outlast him, as with most filmmakers and will be studied years after he's dead, but I think it's more of the controversial nature of his movies rather than the nuance that will continue to attract future generations to see them.

My reasoning is this: unless you are a film geek, you won't get half of his satire in his movies. The rest of the movie going audience, granted a small percentage will get the satire, will miss most of the "jokes", if you will, entirely.

And as a result, I believe his movies will become cult classics.

The hackneyed argument of "you don't get it" is so ridiculous. That's used by people who fail to "get it" themselves. Or are at a loss to properly explain to the rest of us want we "don't get".

The bottom line is this: movies come and movies go, people by and large like a story that they can relate to, whether it be a zombie movie, war picture or love story. On some level they relate to the characters. And the same goes with this film, it's not a matter of "getting it", not every movie has to be an exercise in psychology or a mensa test, it's a matter of whether or not you like the subject matter, story and the characters.

Tarantino's use of dialogue is hit and miss to me. Some is really wonderful and some is out right dull and pointless.

Same with his action sequences. I completely "get" the notion of blood being used as a device, but that doesn't mean I like or enjoy it's obvious symbolic use. I find it trite. If anyone had seen either "the wild bunch"(any of Peckinpah's work for that matter) or "the long riders", will also know that Tarantino's use of blood pays homage to that work, but on a much grander scale.

I will give him this, he does make people talk about films and being a filmmaker and a film geek, that's a good thing,

Tarantino is still young and has a long career ahead of him, there are still many films to be made.
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #140
150. Good points, Javaman.
I'm going to stand by my criticism of people "not getting it" when I read posts that decry Tarantino for rewriting history. C'mon. Talk about not getting it! They expected "Basterds" to be historically factual? They expected "Basterds" to be "Schindler's List"? This is the very depiction of NOT getting it.
I didn't get all of Tarantino's references.
But how ideologically pure does a person have to be not to be able to recognize satire?
There are people here incensed by the historical inaccuracies in this movie. There are people here outraged by the comic book depictions of the characters when the very movie is a comic book. A very deliberate comic book.
Again, the very essense of "not getting it."
You are much more diplomatic than I am.
(by the way, there are many things I don't "get", either. Like the majority of jazz. And I realize there are plenty of people who will lecture me on this personal failure.)
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #150
158. You don't get JAZZ???
lol I couldn't resist.

Cheers!

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #137
144. They don't care. They have their opinion of Tarantino, and cast reality to conform to opinion.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 11:47 AM by BlooInBloo
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #137
167. oh, there's plenty of idiotic DUers
and they have no problem displaying their ignorance on a daily basis
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TommyO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #137
237. Well, technically Hitler didn't die in a fire during a film premier
He was shot, blown up, then burned :D
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bamacrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
145. Its a great movie.
Some people get offended too easily, and I get if you dont like an overly violent movie why you wouldnt like it. But that being said it is a Tarentino movie, Resivoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction are quite violent. It was awesome a little too subtitled but one of the best Ive seen in a while.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
148. De gustibus non est disputandum n/t
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #148
178. So this thread doesn't exist?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #178
189. no (point in) disputing matters of taste.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #189
191. Yes, I know what it means. I responded to it.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #191
194. the logic of your response = unclear. at least to me.
quote means there's no point in such disputes, not that tney don't exist.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #194
195. I'm ok with that.
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Kitsune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
149. I rather liked it, actually.
Granted, it has the characteristic pacing of a Tarantino movie. Why use 12 words when 500 will do?

But then, I liked Kill Bill vol. 2 as well, when everyone else was confused as hell by it.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
154. I liked the movie
It was a fun black comedy war flick.

QT has made bad movies before I loved Pulp Fiction, RD, Jackie Brown.

He has a gift for dialog and getting great performances from the actors. This critic needs to remove the stick from their ass.
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EndersDame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
156. I loved the Idea behind the film Oppressed rising up and taking vengence on their oppressors
Plus it was just fun to watch. If you don't like it you must be a Nazzie . Areverderci mutha fuckers
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ParkieDem Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
161. Well, I liked it.
Sure, there were a couple of violent scenes that made my stomach sort of turn, but I thought Brad Pitt was good. The film showed just enough humanity of the Nazis to make you question the "Basterds'" actions, but not enough to let you sympathize with them. I don't mind seeing sick fucks like that get killed.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
162. Oh, go masturbate to Masterpiece Theatre, San Solei, or the like...
Critics like this need to get their heads out of their asses. Tarantino is at LEAST CREATING SOMETHING. What exactly does a critic "create"?

J
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
166. uh oh.... you trashed somebody's fantasy
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 02:31 PM by fascisthunter
it's a thrill kill movie... there is a whickedness in all, that Tarantino taps into. And believe it or not, it can be entertaining.

But I will not get mad at your point of view... I actually can see where you are coming from. As America gets older, its entertainment industry has gotten much more expressively violent. Where is it all going? I have no idea...
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
170. it looks great, i cant wait to see it. nor do i care what the world socialist party thinks of it.
:shrug:
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
180. Quentin Tarantino rawks!!
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 03:23 PM by Cali_Democrat
I haven't seen the film yet, but I look forward to seeing it in the near future.

I think Quentin Tarantino has a briliant mind when it comes to creating masetrpieces like Pulp Fiction.

He's awesome!

:headbang:
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CKennedy16 Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #180
181. This movie ROCKS.
Haha I just saw this movie this past weekend. Really amazing film, I loved Melanie Laurent to death in this... Everyone on DU should check out this movie, QT rocks!
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #181
183. yeah---she's a babe..
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
184. Interesting thread.. Your comment in the replies about "art" not existing
seems particularly interesting since you claim "art" does not exist yet this film disturbed you enough to write a 17 paragraph dissertation on it, and then defend your position to many who thought quite the opposite of Tarantino's new film.

I submit, that that alone, the ability to make a film that inspires two completely diverse and opposite opinions constitutes a work of art. It certainly inspired you.




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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #184
185. It's a cut and paste job from the intellectually sophmoric 'World Socialist Web Site'
not the OP's own writing - which might have been more interesting to read.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #185
187. talk about one trick pony lol
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #185
188. it's an opinion, & per your own writing, there's no basis for setting one "opinion" higher than
another.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #184
186. i didn't write the review. i submit that many films, books, etc (such as glenn beck's) will
"inspire" such divergence of opinion; the ability to generate divergent opinion has no obvious relationship to the classification of something as "art".
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #186
190. What is your classification of what makes art art?
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #190
193. Art:
–noun
1. the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

That is the dictionary definition.

Good art to me is something that inspires each person differently according to their perspective and experiences. It would encompass painting, film, theater, music, sculpting, drawing, architecture, landscaping...
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #186
192. Yes but Beck is writing opinions on things already happening, not creating
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 04:17 PM by walldude
something from nothing. It's supposed to be "non-fiction", but we all know better. See my post above about my definition of "art".

Apologies about the review thing, I missed the link... But my point still holds, it did inspire the writer.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #192
219. writing non-fiction is a creative activity. when you write a prose piece, you're creating something
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 01:58 AM by Hannah Bell
the reviewer of this movie = "artist" creating "art" because he created controversey & disagreement.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
196. It was good.
People just like to shit on things to feel like they are smarter than others.
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Baikonour Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
197. What an over-drawn article.
If you didn't find Christoph Waltz captivating in the film, do us all a favor and just stop going to movies.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #197
200. The performance by Waltz is simply amazing.
One of the best characters I've seen in awhile in any movie, and Tarantino really gave him some awesome dialog to play with.

"It is Bingo!" :rofl:
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #200
238. Complete agreement.
Waltz made me squirm as if *I* were the one being interrogated. He was very believable. To me, Pitt was the worst actor in the movie, and he wasn't really that bad.

Some people have complained that the movie moved at a snail's pace. I heartily disagree. Tarantino carefully applied layer upon layer of dialogue throughout the entire movie, building suspense, until the climactic theater scene. I thought the movie was excellent and will be buying the DVD upon its release. For my money, IB was the most compelling Tarantino movie since 'Jackie Brown'.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #197
202. +2
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junkiebrewster Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #197
230. bingo!!
Waltz was amazing. One of the best performances in a long time.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
199. So what's your opinion of the movie?
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
204. hmm...now i HAVE to see it
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
206. Loved It
the only thing cooler that Keelin' Nhatzees is killing zombies.
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votingupstart Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
208. saw it - liked it -- ITS A MOVIE -
understand its fiction -
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
213. I'm not a fan
friend got me to watch Pulp Fiction twice in a row, to convince me it was a great movie.. I felt even worse the second time.

I read in a book that Jerry Garcia had similar sentiments and hated it too.

so there!
:P
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
214. I think Tarantino did an excellent job...
in summing up the state of the world in this film.
The metaphors and analogies are stunning.
IF, you have ben paying attention for the last twenty years, that is.

BHN
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
216. I have yet to see this movie.
I like QT's taste in movies more than I like the movies he makes.

Movies are generally not as sleazy and violent as they used to be.
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:01 PM
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217. I saw the film and I thought it glorified torture by American troops.
If torture is something to be laughed at in WW II then you can laugh at it anywhere.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #217
224. You paid attention.
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 02:12 AM by HCE SuiGeneris
Tarantino has a knack for overstating things, and yet, much of it is lost in people's refusal to "listen".
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
223. Quack
What an absolutely delicious rant, albeit completely devoid of any value or understanding of the director's intent.

Somebody should call a waambulance.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
231. Should have at least put **ATTENTION: SPOILERS** with your OP.
I like to make up my own mind when it comes to movies.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #231
236. What spoilers? You didn't know they were going to kill Nazis in the film?
:shrug:
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
239. i don't know... i saw "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS" tonight. i think Quentin is in for a run...
"Ilsa" is at least as good as "Inglourious Basterds"

I think...

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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
241. Sounds like Audience Indictment to me (I have not seen it)
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 11:50 AM by kenny blankenship
Nazis killed in movie theater Check!

POV shot of Nazi receiving a swastika carved into his forehead, dialog spoken by the carver "that's my masterpiece". Attention Audience, this is your director speaking: I am identifying YOUR point of view, as you sit out there in the dark giggling at scenes of torture, with the filmed pov of a Nazi. And now I'm branding you. Enjoy!


I have not seen this movie and probably I won't. But what I commented on are items gathered from the ad campaign and the spoilers spilled in the OP. I am not wedded to this view, how could I be?, but I would definitely keep an open mind about the director's intent. It could be quite the opposite from the way it appears. Think of the movie screen as a mirror where things are written to be read backwards and which reflects less "historical events" so much as it reflects the audience viewing them in the present. Outside support to this reading may possibly be found in Tarantino's "Spaghetti Western" comment.

The only Spaghetti Westerns that get watched and rewatched in America are Sergio Leone's "Dollars" trilogy. Which is ironic since Leone, a Marxist, coded them as a savage and grotesque satire of American capitalist culture. His archetypal American is a bounty hunter murdering for money and often as not partnering with criminals. He's not a Sheriff or a wrongly accused cowhand who must come to the aid of Justice and clear his name. He's not bringing "law and order" to the West; he's come instead to profit from chaos and exploitation. Americans though have taken the "Dollars" trilogy and the El Ultimo y Nihilissimo Hombre character at the center of it to their bosom as an admiring portrait of their squinty eyed, macho toughness. They look at the mirror of their savagery and admire themselves. It is the ambiguity of the Dollars trilogy and the Man with No Name character that accounts for its success here while other Spaghetti Westerns like Corbucci's Django series are obscure. You can easily project yourself into the Man With No Name character without reflecting in part because he is a blank cipher. Leone said of Eastwood "he has two expressions: the one with the hat and the one without." Django stands directly -moralistically- in the path of exploiters and local tyrants. The Man with No Name, by contrast, is just working to seize as much gold as he can around the edges of a war to free men from slavery. (Here and there maybe he does a good deed and manages to make himself more sympathetic than the people he kills - but it's a minimal, gestural effort and aside from the main plot.) He wears the uniform of either side at different times but only as a disguise to serve him in his quest for gain. He has no cause but the pursuit of gold. The Dollars trilogy speaks a truth about the American character (as seen by a European socialist), but it is hardly a complimentary truth - and yet Americans can't get enough of it. It's possible that Tarantino has observed the paradoxical popularity of Leone's satire and has pitched his Inglorious Basterds at a similar blind spot.

IN the 1960s Leone satirized the insatiable American lust for lucre, today Tarantino satirizes their lust for cruelty ?
I should add that if this were indeed the intent behind the movie, that would not make it necessarily a "masterpiece" or even good, or something that I would sit through.
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