Ok folks for the obesity crisis to become clear

[nadinbrzezinski]

http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html

See any pattern? That is the real data. That is what we as a nation confront. Good news, or perhaps bad for some... the end of cheap food is in the horizon, with the end of cheap oil. So perhaps that is what it will take...

And to those going my body.. well you want health reform? I get to have a say from a public health perspective... and if I have to start taxing your shit... or using other means, like getting rid of certain chemicals from the food chain... so be it.

It is not a nanny state, but a health care crisis.

[BlooInBloo]

1. I agree. Too bad it's impossible for people to control what their hand puts in their mouth...

Otherwise this could be avoided.

Oh well.

[gateley]

6. I think I'm misinterpreting your post --

are you saying that we can't control what our hands put in our mouths because of the corporate/agricultural/fast food industries, or because we have no will power?

[BlooInBloo]

8. Whichever sounds best to those with this terribly debilitating condition.

[gateley]

35. In addition to the great stuff nadinbrzezinski posted, I gotta say it's been

forced upon us by the Cargills and Monsantos of the world. They make their stuff so CHEAP. If I'm a mother, will I get my kid a Big Mac for $1, or an apple? Some people have no choice, the crap is all they can afford. 5 packages of Top Ramen for $1 feeds that mother and her kid 5 times. I can't think of how she could do that with any "real" food. :(

We have been sooooo played in so many ways.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. It gets worst, sometimes getting the apple is not possible

since Mickey Ds is all there is in the neighborhood... national food policy and who dictates what.

[gateley]

51. It's horrifying, and we, as a people, have just been too clueless for too long.

It's gonna take a lot of work to turn things around, but "the world's longest journey begins with a single step"...

When that recent study came out saying that organic food isn't necessarily more nutritious than the other stuff, I was furious! We need a study to compare the amount of pesticides, hormones, etc., in regular food to those used in organics.

[Hello_Kitty]

54. Obviously the answer is to put sin taxes on those foods. eom

[alarimer]

67. Yes the corporations bear the lion's share of the blame for the obesity crisis.

Personal responsibility cranks aside.

Fast food is cheaper than healthy food by a large margin. So if you only had 3 dollars, what would you buy? Some lettuce? You couldn't afford anything to put on the lettuce, so that would not get you very far. Or spend it on a value meal at McDonalds, which will probably tide you over for a lot longer than 3 dollars worth of lettuce or fruit.

Fresh fruit and vegetable are EXPENSIVE, at least in comparison with processed food. If you have kids to feed, a box of mac and cheese is cheap and will feed several.

There are many people here who think people are obese because they are lazy. Mostly what they are is poor. Rich people can afford to pay for gym memberships. Cheap food is crap food, for the most part, but if you are on a limited budget, that's what you get.

[treestar]

145. Which is really odd when you think about it

The packaging doesn't cost more? An apple should be cheaper than a boxed product.

Like the cheap stuff from China - why don't the transportation costs make it more expensive than what we would make here? China is far, far, away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. I have argued in the past, after readying a lot on it

the latest was Kessler's the End of Overeating, that yes, the food industry has created some frankestein foods that use our evolution to create highly addictive combos of sugar, fat and salt that do lead to the kind of behavior we are seeing.

It is not a matter of will power, but educating the population and actually treating this like any other addiction.

This will get us into the discussion the PRC likes to avoid, the corporate responsibility in the crisis. There is of course personal responsibility, like with any other addiction, but Hardees widow maker burger was designed to keep you coming back by using the pleasure centers of the brain, and so have many other products out there.

Of course some in the PRC think that means we mean that we are robots and cannot control ourselves. But hey, whatever trips their trigger... this is also a non-issue to many of them.

To me this is a critical health policy issue... THE issue of our times, when 30% or more of the population is obese (30BMI or more) it is no longer a joke, or should be ignored.

[BonnieJW]

15. Also, artificial sweeteners make you hungry all the time!

I had read about this and heard about this on various shows. I stopped using Splenda and dropped 11 pounds. If you're always hungry and there's no reason for you to be (like you've just finished a good meal), try not using artificial sweeteners. The results were so immediate and so profound, I couldn't believe it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. That is why I have switched to Stevia

and also Artificial Sweeteners are now believed to make losing weight harder.

The science that is emerging is actually quite scary.

[gateley]

32. Stevia. Another victim of Corporate America (and, most likely, Rumsfeld when

he and Reagan were forcing the FDA to approve aspertame).

When I first started using Stevia, they couldn't even sell it as a sweetener, additive, anything to be ingested. Then they'd come out with studies saying it was dangerous because it wasn't FDA approved, and now that people are using it anyway and up in arms about Equal and high fructose corn syrup, our saviors Coke and Pepsi have come out with THEIR versions of Stevia.

I know that one is made by Monsanto, the other by Cargill, and they've of course tweaked them to keep them cheap, but still promote that they are from the stevia plant. :grr:

[BlooInBloo]

113. If food really were heroin, I'd be all with you. Unfortunately, teh crazy here is getting a bit much

[Missy Vixen]

23. So, in other words,

those who can't afford HFCS-free food (or do not have the time required to cook meals from scratch,) can just eat cake?

BlooInBloo, how many times do the rest of us have to tell you this? Trying to avoid food additives is difficult or impossible for the average consumer. Would it be too much to ask that those addictive and destructive additives NOT be added to the food we eat, or feed our family members?

Evidently, to you, it is.

[BlooInBloo]

116. My remarks concerned quantity, not quality.

[Missy Vixen]

119. Okay, one more question

And BlooInBloo, bear in mind that I think you're a pretty good guy, and I'm not going after you. We just disagree.

How much is "too much" HFCS? If the studies I've read are accurate, eating any at all is "too much", right? It's in every damn thing we eat now, even the stuff that's in the perimeter of the grocery store, and supposedly "safe". When I'm standing in the grocery store reading labels on things that shouldn't contain it (like ketchup,) something's wrong. If I'm drinking soda, fine, but bread? Condiments? Juice little kids drink? Spaghetti sauce? You get my point.

Let's just think on this one for a minute: If prepared food is being manipulated by manufacturers to contain additives/fat/salt/sugar that causes an addictive rush in the brain, how much is willpower, and how much is something that needs to be looked at on a national level? There's also evidence that artificial sweeteners increase the appetite.

Quantity. Nadine and I have discussed "intuitive eating". I've been doing it over the past several months. It works. Of course, others may disagree.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. I gave this answer to somebody bellow

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6447040&mesg_id=6450386

And it applies here.

Individually if they want to stuff their faces I don't give a fuck... I really don't...

But as a nation we have removed some bad things before... like lead from paint.

And intuitive does work...

As well as planning how to deal with the ahem temptations as it were... making plans

[BlooInBloo]

123. (a) Everybody (literally) is different. What's too much for me may not be too much for you...

No reason to expect a one-size-fits-all answer to that question. Still less reason to make one-size-fits-all laws about it.

(b) If you really think food is like heroin, push for laws to make it a controlled substance (oh the irony), and make it an issue for the DEA, not the FDA. I don't think people *really* think it should be a matter for the DEA, of course. People just like to gin up the most evocative imagery as possible - even if it is fanciful.

(c) I have no problem with you or others going after me - don't think I've ever once complained about getting as good as I give. Fire away. :)

[BOSSHOG]

2. If you want the Obesity crisis to be clear

Visit Mississippi, its clear every where you go. We're number one in obesity, diabetes, high school dropout rates and teen pregnancy. And by gawd we got values.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I know that... As I keep an eye on trends

Hawai'i when we lived there, wasn't that far behind.

But for many folks round these places the crisis is just in our imagination.

And I fear we will have to take some action to limit the availabity of highly palatable and addictive foods. Yes that means national food policy that makes corn cheap but apples expensive. So I can tell folks, eat five a day... yeah whatever.

We are STARTING to move in the right direction with some cities saying no to more fast food, and yes to tax credits to food stores to go back to the wrong side of the tratcs... but we need a lot more than just that. We need a federal response.

[Hannah Bell]

135. & poverty. they go together.

ps: i've gotten interested in mississippi history since learning the farish family (george bush's blind trust manager, old money back before civil war) hail from there & monsantos were neighbors.

relation of tyrone power married into the family too back in the 1800s. jeff davis a relation.

interested in the sw quadrant & natchez. you're not from those parts by any chance?

[Hello_Kitty]

3. Bring back smoking and people will lose weight. eom

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. And how about changing the national cheap food policy started by Nixon?

It is partly responsible for this...

Corn syrup is not just a coincidence.

And what you are proposing is replacing one bad addiction for another... hardly a health policy.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. What you are proposing is focusing on one area, weight, and excluding a lot of other things

I do agree there's some effed up shit in our food but there isn't a firm consensus on the link between being "overweight" (not morbidly obese but heavier than the ideal on the height/weight chart) and significant health problems. A recent study in Canada found that a few extra pounds can add a few years to your life: http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE55N0C720090624

Something tells me that some of this handwringing over weight has more to do with aesthetics than health. And people just wanting to feel superior and more virtuous than others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. We are not talking of overweight people, we are talking of obese people

the Canadian study did not speak of 30+ BMI, but between 25 and 29, aka overweight... and more like 27... BMI.

The link between cancer, diabetes, and high blood cholesterol with people on 30+ is clear as day from every study I have read. This is not about pretty people, but a health matter.

Oh and historically this is the first time we have ANY population with these obesity problems. And it does go back in a major way to the National Food Policy, monoculture and cheap oil.

[Hello_Kitty]

18. BMI is bullshit.

Michael Jordan, at the height of his basketball career, was "obese" according to his BMI.

And the hectoring about weight, by people feigning "concern for your health", starts in on women when we're not even close to being obese. When Jordin Sparks, who was all of maybe a size 12/14, won American Idol a woman named MeMe Roth (swear to god that was her name) started an organization called Americans Against Obesity or something like that and went all over the talk show circuit wringing her hands over how Jordin was a bad role model for young girls. It was all about "health" of course. Mind you that the year before Ruben Studdard, who was morbidly obese by anyone's definition, won the top prize but no one was worried about his health or what kind of example he was setting.

Weight is also a marker of class and economic status. Affluent people have farmer's markets and Trader Joe's and gyms and parks in their communities. Poor people don't. Put those things in poor neighborhoods BEFORE you start putting regressive taxes on junk food. The dialog about weight in this country, just like everything else, is rife with sexism, racism, and classism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. BMI is not bullshit, it is an average number

Body builders and other athletes should get a far more accurate electrical impedance that gives the most accurate numbers out there, and one that most medical officers do not have. It is also quite an improvement over the actuarial tables, but I am sure you did not know that.

As to the food markets et al... guess what? THAT IF THE NATIONAL FOOD POLICY. THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE.

I have no clue how to make it more clear than that.

But if I am going to have food markets moving in to South East LA, they need to have a reason to do that. Why LA has started a policy of giving them a TAX incentive to move in and have said NO MORE to cheap fast food.

Those are the kinds of changes we need at a policy level

Now if you want to keep thinking all the sciency stuff that points to obesity being a problem... ok fine, no more use in speaking of it, now is there?

[Hello_Kitty]

37. Fuck yourself with your "but I am sure you did not know that"

You know fuck all about me or what I know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Fine, if you want to discuss this be an adult if not

have a good life.

[Hello_Kitty]

44. This is rich coming from someone who wrote a hyperbolic and threatening OP

And to those going my body.. well you want health reform? I get to have a say from a public health perspective... and if I have to start taxing your shit... or using other means, like getting rid of certain chemicals from the food chain... so be it.

I do not detect an iota of compassion or caring in that statement. It's about you exulting in your virtuousness and being a control freak.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Ah the libertarian in DU... I see

I think you really do not want to discuss this. By the way the CDC is quite hyperbolic, GOT IT. And this is not a real crisis.

Oh and do have a good day... life, whatever, welcome to my ignore list.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. Ah the authoritarian in DU.

So if your nanny state policies work and the fat people all get skinny (they won't but that's a subject for another OP) whom will you pick for your next crusade?

[TexasObserver]

146. And notice how you become a libertarian if you don't agree with the OP?

It's yet another chapter of "Hey, I read a book and now it's all I can think about, and that book needs to be the law for everyone, everywhere, right now!"

And if you disagree, then you're part of the PRC, that group which suggests personal responsibility plays a role in all that we do.

I recognize that there are many parts to this problem, not the least of which is the vilification of those who are overweight, morbidly or otherwise. We can address the problem of obesity and its health implications without turning it into a bashing session about the obese, as so often seems to occur.

The OP is strident on this topic, and there's only one point of view that matters - the one she has adopted as her religion. If one only wishes to hear their opinions repeated back to them, one might acquire and keep caged birds that could repeat one's sayings ad nauseam.

[Heidi]

149. Does this thread make my ass look fat?

Or just my head? I read a book about optical illusions, so I'm seeking validation, as usual.

[TexasObserver]

153. Ha! I think I read that book.

The End of Overreaching was the name of it, wasn't it?

[Ms. Toad]

139. Not really.

Michael Jordan was at the very lowest weight that tipped him into the overweight category - not the obese category (6'6" - 216 lbs = BMI of 25. A BMI of 24.8 (corresponding to 215 lbs) is normal weight)

[Hello_Kitty]

20. BTW, the study did look at obese people. It looked at people of all weights.

It's right there in the article: The study was based on examining the relationship between body mass index and death among 11,326 adults in Canada over a 12-year period using data from the National Population Health Survey.

During the study period, from 1994/1995 through 2006/2007, underweight people were 70 percent more likely than people of normal weight to die, and extremely obese people were 36 percent more likely to die.

But overweight individuals were 17 percent less likely to die. The relative risk for obese people was nearly the same as for people of normal weight.

Apparently, the mortality risk of being underweight is greater than that of being obese.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. The riisk of being underweight has been known for a long time

and overweight is 25.1 to 29.9 BMI by any standard definition.

Of course I'd love to see that study done in the US... were we have a higher prevalent of I don't know UNTREATED or badly controlled diabetes.

Having a NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE, with access to care could have nothing to do with it... and nearly the same usually means lower.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. So what sort of public policies do you propose to help those endangered skinny people?

Why is it that your ideas are directed toward fat people, who are apparently at a much lower risk of dying than their too-skinny counterparts?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Eating disorders are also treated as a health concern

again, if you really want to discuss this as an adult, please do, if not... not my issue.

Seems this is threatening to you.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Most skinny people do not have eating disorders but nice try.

The study I linked to showed that being slightly overweight correlates to a longer life and that even obese people aren't in as much danger as they're made out to be. Seems like you have issues with fat people. And authoritarianism.

[lysosome]

70. Meh.

-While it's true that some underweight people tend to die early, it's also true that if you look at people who reach a very long life, they tend to be skinny. A contradiction? Not really. Some of the things that make for being skinny - eating disorders, cancer, oxycotton(remember when rush limbaugh lost all that weight), and I think someone mentioned smoking - make for short lifespans. It really is healthy to be underweight. Just look up Calorie Restriction.
No one is sure how it works, few can stand to stay on it, and apparently the longevity boost only happens if you stay with it from the get go.

[Hello_Kitty]

78. Count me out. I don't eat that much as it is and I'll be damned if I drop to 1000 calories.

And it's funny how you list unhealthy behaviors and conditions associated with being skinny but seem to agree with the OP's focus on fat as the most unhealthy thing evar.

[lysosome]

97. Heh.

I think it's 1400 Calories (nutritional Calories are always capitalized - Don't ask). And those 400 calories are going to taste mighty good after drooping to 1400 Calories!
There is quite a lot of research that suggests that being overweight is unhealthy. Period. It leads to all sorts of conditions that normal weight people don't have nearly as often.
I wouldn't be going through all the work to eat healthy and lose weight if I didn't think so.
I've been overweight and even peaked at obese. It's not healthy. I know from personal experience and I know from doing the reading.
If you don't believe that : hey, it's a free country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[lysosome]

129. ty!

[Hello_Kitty]

106. Formerly fat people tend to be the most judgmental

I've never been obese but there was a time several years ago when I threw myself into working out and dropped from my normal 165-170 lbs* down to about 130. As I recall, I looked down my nose at fat people and decided they were undisciplined and unhealthy.

*A weight that I'm sure the OP would think makes me a Fatty Fat McLardass two minutes away from a coronary but I wear between a size 10 and 12.

[anneboleyn]

115. Truthfully this is what I suspect about the OP. A "reformed" fatty who now targets others.

My mother-in-law once said there is nothing worse than a reformed glutton. She was speaking about a relative who had lost 100 pounds and now was in the mode of judging and condemning everyone whom she considered to be fat. Her excessive self-righteousness repulsed every member of the family. She once screamed and yelled when there was birthday cake at a party. Then after a few years she gained all the weight back and the screaming and yelling ended. She become bitter and nasty though.

As I have posted before, I am lucky to have been smothered with male attention. I don't give a damn what some poster on DU thinks about my body or the bodies of other Americans. I don't feel the need to start posts bashing other women who don't meet a beauty standard, whether for weight issues or any other reason, while disguising it as my "concern" for their poor fat little souls.

[lysosome]

128. Reformed fatty?

Not me! I was 127lbs and 5'9" out of hight school. Raced bicycles. Ate 5 meals a day. Then, in my late 30s, I was in a car accident. Couldn't exercise and craved protein. Had a sedentary job. I gained some weight. I looked into what was causing my back pain (cold, mostly) hit the sauna more, did more exercise and got better.
Being over weight is not good for you. I didn't say a damned thing about whether or not it looked good (nor did I specify male or female).

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Ah the PRC going at it with you? I was wondering when the F

word would come out...

:-)

Of course, as I keep saying the corporations could have NO responsibility in this at ALL.

Oh and I do hope your back is doing much better.

[anneboleyn]

133. Not you, the original poster who put Hello Kitty on "ignore" now because she can't tolerate dissent

or fat people.

[Missy Vixen]

24. Absolutely

>Something tells me that some of this handwringing over weight has more to do with aesthetics than health.<

It's fun to bully others.

:eyes:

[anneboleyn]

134. Amen, Missy Vixen. Picking on the vulnerable has become a trend in the U.S.

A rather disturbing trend. But it's for their own good, they say.

[kelly1mm]

36. Good one! Almost splattered my monitor reading that! nt

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demmiblue]

9. Fuck off, asshole.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansDem]

17. No, actually this man is...

This man is the face of Government-protected Wealth Care...



You must have been mistaken...

[Contrary1]

27. And here is the face of the lacking mental health crisis:

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Now that is one loon that needs to be put on a 51-50

:-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Yes lets have... it is called public health

that is why you also get the kiddies vaccinated.

By the way what topping do you want on your pizza?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dmallind]

19. Hey if that trend continues for another century or so

That first laughable figure the CDC came up with that tried to pretend obesity was anywhere close to smoking in mortality (and which they later had to retract and reduce by over 2/3) might just become true!

[liberalhistorian]

25. A good start would be to get rid of the fucking soda and

junk food machines in schools, and forbid any contracts between soda and junk food companies and schools. I don't care how poor a damned district is, that shit does NOT belong in schools. One can of soda can have more than FORTY grams of sugar alone, let alone the other chemical junk; same with the junk food. I repeat, that shit does NOT belong in schools, but it's becoming ubiquitous there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. A few districts are moving there

But in my view, the school district gets federal dollars, the machines go out. PERIOD. So does Mickey Ds and the rest of them.

But yes, that is a good start

[JNelson6563]

77. Hear, hear!

:toast:

[The Straight Story]

29. Meh - tired of others mapping what one person does in their to everyone else

It's only a crisis to those who cannot control others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Look at the NATIONAL HEALTH CARE STATISTICS

then come back to me...

Oh wait, I forgot to libertarians public health is an invasion... hmmm thankfully this will end one way or the other. Lack of cheap oil will lead to the end of this... is that an invasion of your lifestyle too, or just a fact you will have to learn to live with?

[The Straight Story]

56. Hey sell your freedoms in the name of health care (aka money), just don't as me to join ya

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. So we should keep this system where the corps are free to do whatever

in the name of freedom?

Ok

By the way, your freedom is an illusion. I am sure you realize that, maybe. But what you are :"free" to do right now, is due to national food policies that WILL HAVE TO CHANGE with the coming end of cheap oil and mostly cheap pesticides and other crap we've done the land.

So do enjoy this freedom... you think you have.

After all the corporations have given you this illusion but even them will not be able to maintain it.

So what happens when it is gone? Oh the horror.

[The Straight Story]

58. meh, I usually don't eat out anyway, I have that choice (for now) and exercise it

Regulating industry more - fine with that but there is a point where it goes too far and becomes too controlling.

Oh - and if all the oil stuff happens and my choice goes away because of that, that is one thing. Having other people sitting around deciding to take away my choices is another.

No one forces anyone to eat something they don't want.

We already have choice removing that is removing freedoms.

Educate people and let them decide. Unless you and others think they are so stupid and helpless you need to make decisions for them and be their care giver.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. The problem is that nobody has ever even suggested to take your choice

to a tripple decker widow maker at Mickey Ds... I expect them to come up with this monster

What I want though is to take HCSFs out of the food chain... and to make sure those corps do NOT add certain chemical additives to their food product

You want to go have a ... quadruple cheeseburger, with eight slices of bacon and chili cheese burgers on the side (a favorite of the football team when I worked food services back in the day), go for it. Hey if you want to add the skinny milk (For the figure, I was told this by a full back once) whatever trips your trigger.

Now in schools we should NOT have mickey Ds inside the halls, or soda... but if you as a parent want to take junior to have a triple heart attack with lard on bacon grease by all means...

And that is the problem. Many folks don't realize that the current food industry is very regulated in some respects, but not in others. And that your food choices are wholly dependent on the national food policy. That food policy will go in a different direction as energy becomes more expensive... no way around it, so that quadruple decker with cheese and bacon will be expensive, ONCE AGAIN... and out of the reach of the minimum wage earner. It will just happen... right now we spend 19% of our energy budget on food production, We expect that to be up, by probably orders of magnitude... so that will force changes anyway.

[anneboleyn]

80. Exactly. Weird control freak stuff. I really hate the food police.

[Political Heretic]

104. I hate nanny liberals* in general.

Whether the pet subject is food, smoking, breast feeding, child rearing, what car someone drives or the kind of entertainment someone enjoys.... you can bet your ass there's some nanny liberal out there ready to make a moralizing judgment about it, finger primed for a good wagging. :eyes:


*nanny liberals <> all liberals

[Hello_Kitty]

107. IMHO judgments and moralizing are fine. Everyone does it.

There are certain things I feel very judgmental and moralistic about. So judge and moralize away. Just don't expect people not to tell you where you can stick your opinion. And don't be surprised when no one buys your bullshit cover story about how you're "concerned" about "health".

[anneboleyn]

131. I agree. And this poster has a somewhat bizarre urge to post things about fat people

I've read posts of hers elsewhere about the evils of fat people. And then someone below on this thread said this poster is or was obese. according to her own posts. How weird is that? Some strange form of self hatred?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

138. Many people who complain about others being fat.....

....have had weight issues themselves. You find out they are someone who was obese at one time, and manage to lose most of it, and are angry at others who still seem to be "enjoying" what they themselves now can't have or are afraid to eat even in moderation. Mind you, I put enjoying in quotes, because people do often pay for their poor nutrition at some point. But the people complaining about it often have motives that are purely mirrors for their own insecurity.

[Creena]

141. I'll never understand that one.

I gained a great deal of weight, lost it all, and gained it back. I inhaled food as an outlet for my stress. When not eating, I just slept or sat in a chair. It's true, I found myself judged more often by those who were once overweight. So now, here I am back at the beginning again, eating nutritional food and adding more activity into my life.

I'm sick of hearing horrible comments whispered as I toss a something as sinister as baking chocolate (!) into my cart. I found baking to be a fantastic outlet for my ever so stressful life. And, what's hysterical, is that I don't actually eat any of the stuff I bake! I give it all to some of the needier families in the area who either don't have time or money to bake. If I do save anything, I'm now able to eat in moderation. So, now I'm able to get healthy and still enjoy great foods. I'm sorry if that bothers other people, but it took a great deal of work to get me to this point.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

143. I've had my own weight issues

At one time (teens to early 20's) I was able to eat anything and remain at a respectable weight. My metabolism is different now, but it's just hard to change my diet. I've cut out a lot of things that are bad a different times to shed pounds, but sometimes it's just hard not to be tempted and go back to it. I also previously had a very active occupation that kept me in better shape, but now have a desk job that makes it tougher to maintain. I could join the gym at work, and if I did, I don't think I'd have any problems getting back to where I want to be within a few months, but it's a mental thing. I don't blame McDonalds or Coca-Cola for it.

All the rambling about obesity doesn't mean much. You can be slim and eat fatty foods all the time and still take a heart attack at 40 or 50.

[Political Heretic]

151. Who is the woman in your sig line?

Wowzers. :)

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

152. Shirley Manson

Lead singer of Garbage.

[TexasObserver]

148. Having been "saved," the "saved" often proselytize.

Mid life seems to bring this out, this need to reinvent ourselves. Some fall for running, some for religion, some for working out, some for eating rigidly. No matter what gospel the disciple chooses, it becomes the way, the truth and the light, which all seekers of knowledge should follow.

Most people cannot see that their personal salvation was what they did, not some particular objective. They wrongly ascribe to their activity magical powers to transform others. They end up worshipping the vehicle, instead of recognizing they're the ones who got it there.

[WinkyDink]

30. Because thin people never have hypertension, bulimia, anorexia, diabetes, cancer, ......

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. In lower percentages, and bulimia and anorexia are eating disorders

by the way, so is overeating... and food addiction.

If you are going to discuss this in an informed way, at least get the terms right.

But yes, people who do maintain a healthy weight or close to it, TEND to have less of a risk for hypertension, diabetes cancer et al. Why obesity is considered a RISK FACTOR.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. Wow. If you're fat you're on death's door and if you're skinny you must have an eating disorder.

:eyes:

[lysosome]

73. ... and again.

There are few (thyroid problems, chronic fatigue, or just too much of the chronic) medical issues that CAUSE obesity. Perhaps more study will find causation between HFCS or other crap we eat and being overweight (other than the empty calories these things provide, that is). For the most part, being obese contributes to health problems. Having health problems can CAUSE weight loss e.g. drugs, cancer, or mental problems. If I understand the methods used in the study, they took 11k dead people and basically found their BMI. If you want a different view, see what percent of people with a BMI of 30 make it to 100.

[Hello_Kitty]

76. What percent of ANY people make it to 100?

It's not useful to look at elderly people anyway because people tend to lose weight late in life. I had a great aunt who was heavy most of her life, until she was in her mid-70s. She lived to be 93.

[lysosome]

81. Point taken. Sorry to hear...

Though 93 is a good run.
Still, the methodology of the study you are quoting does not look at an individual's whole life either, just who died during the two years studied. If a person gets AIDS or cancer and loses enough weight to be underweight, then they are in the study as underweight dead.
Underweight tends to be a cause of a disease and overweight tends to cause disease.

[anneboleyn]

84. Before you claim you are an expert on all matters of obesity, go to obesitymyths.com please.

Before you preach to everyone else, go read the studies on this website. The matter is far more complex than you narrow and rather offensive posts would suggest. I mean who appointed you master of the fat people?

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Self delete

The libertarians, they are gonna take my food away... never happen, or until the cheap oil goes away, are not worth it

[anneboleyn]

93. What? Your post makes no sense. But it figures that you aren't willing to do any additional reading

beyond one book you read from amazon. The studies there are well-respected medical studies, by the way. Educate yourself.

[Political Heretic]

111. I did the due dilligence on your "source" - including pulling the IRS form 990

The Center for Consumer Freedom is a front group for the food and restaurant lobby.

It is a branch of Berman and Company, which is a PR firm that shills for the food and restaurant lobby, its executive director is Richard Berman of Berman and Comany, its Treasuer is Derrek Hofrichter, formerly serving with the Bush adminsitration. Other board members include Daniel Mindus - another PR representative of the same firm, etc.

Here's some other front websites this same groups runs, according to the IRS disclosure forms which you can find HERE:
http://www2.guidestar.org/

animal-scam.com
mercuryfacts.com (mercury is good for you!)
petakillsanimals.com
trans-fatfacts.com (trans fats are good for you!)

[anneboleyn]

112. Take the time to read the studies quoted on the website. All perfectly respectable medical journals

So your attempt to poison the well is needlessly simplistic.

[Political Heretic]

126. Reading from an IRS Form 990 is hardly "poisoning the well"

nice try.

Up above I say that I hate nanny liberals, and the layout of the site certainly appeals to me - but I'm not going to trust such an obviously biased front group to accurately layout of the full scope of facts about an issue anymore than I trust and activist advocacy group to do the same.

It's not that I take issue with studies quote - as with most things it typically has more to do with the selectivity of the what's quoted or the studies and information omitted that's the problem.

I prefer to attempt to get sources, even when quoting studies, from more neutral sources because I trust them to be more balanced in presenting a careful look at all the information.

[anneboleyn]

132. Then I would suggest reading the articles referenced. Many reseachers are funded by the diet

industry, which is a multi-billion dollar industry and quite powerful. The website may certainly be biased, as many are (and books written by journalists can certainly have a bias as well --- hell, I am an English professor, so I am very aware of this sort of thing), but the source material certainly provides food for thought (so to speak). You have assumed that every quote or article referenced must be suspicious. There may be lots of perfectly valid information. There is bias on all sides -- the obesity reseachers receive enormous amounts of funding from the diet industry. Sure, many of them are concerned about a public health problem. But others may have different motives. So it's not as though only certain participants in this debate (the "obesity is the apocalypse" types) have clean hands.

Here are a few quotes:

From The American Journal of Public Health, regarding the decision in 1998 to lower the BMI to a level that made a vast number of Americans "overweight."

"Current interpretations of the revised guidelines stigmatize too many people as overweight, fail to account for sex, race/ethnicity, age, and other differences; and ignore the serious health risks associated with low weight and efforts to maintain an unrealistically lean body mass … This seeming rush to lower the standard for overweight to such a level that 55% of American adults find themselves being declared overweight or obese raises serious concerns."

"There is increasing evidence that these cut-off values are not valid for all populations … If obesity were defined as BF% greater than 25% in males and greater than 35% in females, 7% of the females and 8% of the males would be falsely classified as obese with the BMI-based formula."
—European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2001

Case Western Reserve University professor Paul Ernsberger describes how financially conflicted researchers control the government’s pronouncements on obesity:

"Medical beliefs about obesity are shaped by expert panels that are highly selective in the data they consider. Experts included on government consensus panels have been disproportionately drawn from the ranks of diet clinic directors, which might explain the congruence between panel recommendations and the economic interests of the diet industry. In short, economic factors encourage a systematic exaggeration of the health risks of obesity."

Many of America’s most influential obesity experts receive significant financial support from the $46 billion weight-loss industry. These experts help drive obesity hype by churning out a steady stream of studies, alarmist public pronouncements, and treatment guidelines.

The notion that 65 percent of Americans are overweight or obese derives in part from a 1998 decision to redefine "overweight," which cast more than 35 million Americans into that category. This decision was made by a National Institutes of Health obesity panel chaired by Xavier Pi-Sunyer, one of the most influential obesity researchers in the country. Over the years, Pi-Sunyer has received support from virtually every leading weight-loss company, including Novartis, Sanofi-Aventis, Ortho-McNeil, Wyeth-Ayerst, Knoll, Weight Watchers, and Roche. He has served on the advisory boards of Wyeth-Ayerst, Knoll, Abbott, Johnson & Johnson, and McNeil Nutritionals. He once headed up the Weight Watchers Foundation and is currently a board member of that organization. Pi-Sunyer gave the "obesity overview" presentation on behalf of Knoll, maker of the weight-loss drug Meridia, at a 1996 FDA advisory panel hearing on the drug. He has also been paid to sign his name to ghost-written journal articles used to promote the dangerous weight-loss combination known as "fen-phen."

[FarCenter]

41. We spend more on health care than on food

Food and beverage purchases for off-sale consummption       $784.3 Billion in 2008
Food services and accommodations                             608.7
                                                            -------
Total food and beverage expenditures                       $1392.0

Health care                                                $1544.2 Billion in 2008

We are spending more on health care than on food. Maybe this is backwards, and we should spend more to buy better food in smaller quantities.

Data from "Table 1.5.5. Gross Domestic Product, Expanded Detail" at http://www.bea.gov/national/pdf/dpga.pdf (warning, big file).

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. This is what is wild

we used to spend 17% on food in the 60s... today we spend 10%

We used to spend 10% on healthcare, today we spend 16%

Coincidence? I don't think so.

[flvegan]

49. The BMI is horseshit.

I'm not denying that the rate of obesity has risen significantly (it's up around 10% in Florida over as many years to just over 26% IIRC, albeit compiled by the BMI which is at least static) but using the BMI is just garbage.

If the NIH and CDC wanted accurate data, they should be using an immersion testing method, not using a survey and piping the "results" through a crap calculator.

According to their system, I have a BMI that wavers between 35 and 39.5 depending on my gym workout cycle. But that's okay, it doesn't hurt my feelings since:

When Arnold won the 1975 Mr. Olympia, his BMI was around 33;

When Josh Beckett takes the mound for the Red Sox tonight, he'll be "overweight" with a BMI of around 28;

Not to upset the Yankees fans for not including them, any homers that A-Rod hits tonight will be done while knocking on the obesity door with a BMI of around 29.

Lastly, 8 time Mr Olympia Ronnie Coleman competed and won with a BMI at a whopping 43.

It's crap data.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. I know the BMI is horse shit according to some

they should be using the impedance or immersion method on athletes, do you want them to go back to.... the actuarial tables?

Yeah that's the ticket.

And BMI is good enough for MOST OF THE POPULATION THAT DOES NOT GO TO THE GYMN REGULARLY.

Weight lifters in particular are never, ever get accurate numbers either from the BMI or the Actuarial tables... Yeah let's go back to actuarial tables.

And yes the data is mostly reliable... and we DO HAVE an obesity crisis from hell

I take it you lift weights.

[flvegan]

59. No, I want them to get actual data.

Are you at all familiar with the data collection? Someone calls you up and asks a hundred or so questions, and fills out a response card. Among those hundred some odd questions, there are 3 (IIRC) that are collected for BMI data:

1. How tall are you without shoes?
2. How much do you weigh without shoes?
3. Has your weight increased in the last year (and if so why)?

Having folks basically guess at their height and weight over the phone is no way to assess an epidemic. "Quick maw, go git the ole bathroom scale"

It's stupid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Well the best way to asses this would be to actually do the weigh in

and reporting at medical clinics... but you realize how much people scream over that? Hell, we could do what once was done in this country, and gather the data at school with the kidies. again care to guess at the screaming?

They should, but they won't. And we do have a crisis.

Just look around.

Is the data 100% reliable? Unless you send health workers and check EVERY PERSON in the country all you get are approximations, but we do have a crisis, and it is getting worst.

As to BMI, it is a good approximation and far better than the old actuarial tables.

Granted, it sucks if you are an athlete, or lift weights. It will never, evah be accurate with athletes and especially weight lifters, We both know why.

[flvegan]

64. It sucks if you're just an endomorph.

Or an endo mesomorph.

That data, honestly, could be just as easy (and accurately :eyes: ) compiled by watching security tapes of a supermarket entrance over the course of 2 hours and counting the "obviously fat" people.

Rather than compile crap data, they should just say "look around you" and "look down at your toes...can you see them?"

As I said in my first response, yes, we do have a big problem in this country with weight and issues compounded by obesity.

Lastly, I'll be brutally honest...I think they're way off. I think the obesity problem is a higher % than what the CDC and NIH thinks it is in some places.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. agree with you, it is far worst

now they want to go for an easy, fast no need for specialized equipment, that is just as good for approximations... waist measurements... what we used to do in them poor countries.

Out of curiosity I should do that myself...

But if we wanted to be accurate... the self reporting would be replaced by an actual honest to goodness health policy... and that might come...

[Creena]

53. I agree.

When I started my weight loss program, one of the first pieces of advice was to forget BMI. They set us up with one of those mobile units and I strapped on my suit :scared: for an accurate measurement.

[flvegan]

61. You want to hear something crazy?

Two things, really. Every personal trainer I know thinks the BMI is absolute crap, though most don't tell their clients that.

And why?

Well, one of my last PT continuing education course actually had a section about leveraging the BMI to make more money from clients now scared by their BMI reading. Maybe that has something to do with it.

[Creena]

63. Wow, I feel lucky.

I'm glad the person my doctor set me with didn't use those practices. I saw him about 5 years ago when my insurance covered everything and he really helped change my attitude towards not only food, but numbers (weight, BMI, ratios, etc.).

[kctim]

50. Good example

of the next talking point those against a govt plan will use.

"And to those going my body.. well you want health reform? I get to have a say from a public health perspective... and if I have to start taxing your shit..."

There is no way I am voting for something, or someone, who wants to dictate what I do with my own body.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Health program or not, I already have a say in what happens to your body

It is called public health, and it ranges from Tobacco cessation programs, to vaccination programs, to what we have RIGHT NOW in the books due to H1N1 we have a NATIONAL HEALTH EMERGENCY in the books. Google what are the powers of the Federal Government.

But in a national health system PUBLIC HEALTH and wellness programs will have to take center stage...

Of course you have no problem in allowing Monstanto and the rest put crap into your body every day... that is A - OK, after all it is just the corporations.

[kctim]

68. Doesn't that justify their concerns?

Govt run health care must control costs if it is going to be effective and in order to control those costs, people like you are going to dictate what they rest of us eat and drink. Now, just how many fat asses are going to want you telling them to eat a certain way instead of being able to engulf all the twinkies they want? Do you really think they will be ok with it because YOU think it is for THEIR own good?
This will be one of the next talking points and such attitudes will only further hamper reform. It is a terrible tactic that will backfire.

BTW: You have no idea what crap I put into my body. I could eat straight out of chemical bag or eat purely organic from farms. ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and THAT, is A - OK.

[Hello_Kitty]

69. And the thing is, you can't tell how someone eats just by looking at them.

I know skinny people who eat like shite and fat people who eat healthy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. We already do that, as a matter of public policy

we, as a country, do take note of diseases you get, not you personally, but you... as a general population. Why we know stupid shit like your chances of getting a particular cancer given your age, race (wish they got rid of that and just called it ethnicity), weight, and family history.

We already have vaccination programs to keep the little tikes free of things like Polio and smallpox... you'd rather have some small pox?

and other public health initiatives such as PSAs telling us smoking is not good, and we should not use drugs... granted the war on drugs has failed but that is another story. .

Now I don't give a hoot if you chose to eat a quadruple cheeseburger with eight slices of bacon, fried in lard and in a white bun with plenty of sugar rich ketchup, and mustard. I don't give a hoot if you chose to eat a salad with vegan soy packets.... and edemame... but I do care if I get a national program that there are WELLNESS programs available to you. That there are gyms available, that there are other health services including education available to you and yes even PSAs telling you to try to eat five fruts and vegies a day... and that I have a national food program that makes that possible.

Now riddle me this. You have no problem if Blue Shield Blue Cross or Kaiser does this... but you have a problem if the Gub'mint does this?

Oh and whether you like it or not, every time you go to the doctor SOMEBODY is tracking your health status. No, not just your doctor. That data goes to the actuarial office at the Insurance company... is that better than the untrustworthy guv'minT? Now if you get particular things, like oh TB, then it also goes to the county and you could be forced to get treatment... arrested even... plenty of case law on that.

But apart of the extreme cases such at TB you honestly believe that you are not being tracked RIGHT NOW? ARE YOU THAT IGNORANT?

Oh and what I want though is for HCSF to be removed from the food chain. I also want transfats to be removed from the food chain. That will reduce the profits of the corporations and overall improve your health status WITHOUT you even noticing a change in taste. I also want PSAs and gyms available as well as general wellness programs.

What is wrong with this? De try to explain this to me. You have no problem with all your health data going to the actuary at the insurance company but you have a problem with that same data going to the guv'ment for national health stats?

Please help me here. Where does this hate the gub'mint comes from? Because you guys seem to have absolute trust in the corporations that are fully conscious of what they are doing, and will continue to pressure your government to continue a food policy policy that benefits THEM, not you. And yes, the health companies will continue to drop you as soon as you cost them money.

And yes if I am going to pay for your health care, I want a say but apparently my say, which is consistent with a NATIONAL health policy is way more intrusive than what the corps are doing. Never mind they are intrusive to the Nth degree. So please do help me here.

[kctim]

147. My initial post was saying

that such "nanny state" regulations will only harm the healthcare cause going on right now and no matter how good something is for someone, they do not like their life to be dictated by someone or something else.

Vaccinations do not dictate how I live my life and they are easily avoided if one wishes. They are not the same thing as dictating what one eats.
There is nothing wrong with programs or PSA's that promote healthy lifestyles and unless they require participation, they are not the same thing either.

I gave no statement approving of private insurance dictating personal lifestyles, but yes, I would support a private company suggesting I live according to their rules over a government forcing me to live according to your rules.

I don't give a crap about whatever "tracking" you are suggesting. I have no problem with private companys or the government tracking some things for studies. Apparently you like to jump to conclusions and assume things in order to justify your ideas when someone dares to question them.

You want HCSF and transfats removed from the food chain? Why can't you be happy with just removing them from YOUR food chain? Why do YOU worry about what joe slob eats? Do you not realize that once he finds out that you want to control what he eats that he will probably no longer support a single payer system? Are you that ignorant?

Who hates the "gub'mint?" Who has said they hate "the gub'mint?" Oh, that's right, nobody did. You are just projecting and deflecting again in order to "justify" your ill conceived ideas.

And finally, we are back to what my reply was about. If you are going to pay for my health care, you want a say in how I live my personal life. Sure you try to hide the facts behind a "National health policy" that only promotes healthy eating and exercise, but you yourself have said you want to control what others eat. Do you honestly not realize just how damaging that would be to forming a govt run health program?

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. Oh boy where to start?

"that such "nanny state" regulations will only harm the healthcare cause going on right now and no matter how good something is for someone, they do not like their life to be dictated by someone or something else."

What nanny state are you talking about?

"Vaccinations do not dictate how I live my life and they are easily avoided if one wishes. They are not the same thing as dictating what one eats.
There is nothing wrong with programs or PSA's that promote healthy lifestyles and unless they require participation, they are not the same thing either."

Actually you are wrong, vaccinations in children are mandatory to get to school, The childhood series is mandated, for good and solid HEALTH CARE REASONS, not only here, but every where that has a public health system. Now you don't want to get the flu shot or pneumovax, go for it... do whatever you want to do.

"I gave no statement approving of private insurance dictating personal lifestyles, but yes, I would support a private company suggesting I live according to their rules over a government forcing me to live according to your rules."

So if the private company MANDATES that you go hit the gym five times a week that is fine, but if the government SUGGESTS you do the same, that is wrong? You think corporations are thinking of you? Jeesus age, where did this trust in the US of the Corporations for the corporations and by the corporations come from?

"I don't give a crap about whatever "tracking" you are suggesting. I have no problem with private companys or the government tracking some things for studies. Apparently you like to jump to conclusions and assume things in order to justify your ideas when someone dares to question them."

Here is a hint, every prescription you get is tracked by private heath corporations, That way they can deny treatment. This is not for research purposes, what the actuarial officers for private insurance are doing. Get a fucking clue. If there is GUB'MINT research involved you DO have to kill a tree in all the human ethics forms you have to sign. Been there, done that, for vitamin E. As to the public tracking of a populations health status how do you think CDC gets data for silly shit like the annual Flu spread? Ever asked yourself how?

"You want HCSF and transfats removed from the food chain? Why can't you be happy with just removing them from YOUR food chain? Why do YOU worry about what joe slob eats? Do you not realize that once he finds out that you want to control what he eats that he will probably no longer support a single payer system? Are you that ignorant?"

Go down to the store and start readying labels deary. They are pervasive. Why should I have to eat this crap? More importantly why should the working poor be forced to eat this crap because that is all they can afford? Get a clue... or in your MY BODY MY RIGHT you really don't care of other folks don't have a choice because they CANNOT afford not to consume this crap?

"Who hates the "gub'mint?" Who has said they hate "the gub'mint?" Oh, that's right, nobody did. You are just projecting and deflecting again in order to "justify" your ill conceived ideas."

Ill conceived to demand that food additives that are doing harm be removed from the food chain. I guess forty years ago you'd be all for keeping the lead in paint too.

"And finally, we are back to what my reply was about. If you are going to pay for my health care, you want a say in how I live my personal life. Sure you try to hide the facts behind a "National health policy" that only promotes healthy eating and exercise, but you yourself have said you want to control what others eat. Do you honestly not realize just how damaging that would be to forming a govt run health program?"

You mean you want to keep things in the food chain that increasingly science is proving are bad for you? Okie dokie, next time you paint your house, use lead paint, please do.

National health policies are SCARRRYYY WE KNOW.

Now go on, enjoy that quadruple cheeseburger, with eight slices of bacon and fried in lard... go on... this is what you want... and by the way, I do hope you keep defending the corporations.

Oh and yes, you are a libertarian... by the way.

[kctim]

154. ?

Dictating that fat people cannot eat whatever they wish would be a "nanny state" regulation, would it not? Oh wait, you totally ignored the word regulations didn't you. I wonder why? Oh, thats right, it's easier to dismiss what you want to be said rather than face what was actually said.

How many school aged children do you have? I have two and I can assure you that, even though they are "mandated," there are ways around having to get all of the vaccinations and it is not all that hard.

"So if the private company MANDATES that you go hit the gym five times a week that is fine, but if the government SUGGESTS you do the same, that is wrong? You think corporations are thinking of you? Jeesus age, where did this trust in the US of the Corporations for the corporations and by the corporations come from?"

It would help if you read what is written rather than assume what is written.
1. A private company CANNOT mandate that you hit the gym 5 times a week. They can SUGGEST it, which is what I said, but they do not have the power to enforce it. The government can also SUGGEST it, and they do, and nobody has a problem with it at all. You're comment however, was that if you are paying for their healthcare, then you have a say in their lifestyle and since government DOES have the power to REQUIRE people to hit the gym 5 times a week, it is not going to be looked upon as a good thing.

I have given no support to the 'corporations' as you keep alluding to. It is funny how you put all of this trust in government though, especially after the last 8 years.

"As to the public tracking of a populations health status how do you think CDC gets data for silly shit like the annual Flu spread? Ever asked yourself how?"

Gee, seeing how I just said I do NOT have a problem with it, I'm guessing I have asked myself that questions.

"Go down to the store and start readying labels deary. They are pervasive. Why should I have to eat this crap? More importantly why should the working poor be forced to eat this crap because that is all they can afford? Get a clue... or in your MY BODY MY RIGHT you really don't care of other folks don't have a choice because they CANNOT afford not to consume this crap?"

I am 42 and believe it or not, I can take care of myself just fine. I don't need you looking out for me, so stop worrying about me.
I DO read labels, as everyone should. You do NOT have to eat this crap. NOBODY is forced to eat anything they do not want to eat. Yes, it is more convenient for people to eat this crap, but nobody is forced to eat it like they would be under your rules. So, who are these 'working poor' going to be more upset with? You for taking away their choice or me for leaving it up to them?

"Ill conceived to demand that food additives that are doing harm be removed from the food chain. I guess forty years ago you'd be all for keeping the lead in paint too."

Sigh. No, your ill conceived ideas that people who do not wish to be told how to eat all support the wrong things corporations do. Your ill conceived ideas that you know what is best for other people. Your ill conceived ideas that you should be able to tell others how to live their life.

"You mean you want to keep things in the food chain that increasingly science is proving are bad for you? Okie dokie, next time you paint your house, use lead paint, please do."

So, yet again, you fail to answer a simple question so that you can ignore the reality in the answer. More people WOULD be against govt run healthcare if they found out govt was going to dictate what they ate, wouldn't they.

"National health policies are SCARRRYYY WE KNOW."

Again, projecting to avoid the facts. You cannot refute the fact that people would not like to have their lifestyle choices dictated to them.

Look, Nation Health Policies are great for informing people. PSA's are great. But neither one of them would be accepted if they mandated rather than just inform.

"Now go on, enjoy that quadruple cheeseburger, with eight slices of bacon and fried in lard... go on... this is what you want... and by the way, I do hope you keep defending the corporations."

Thank you, and seeing how neither of them are any of your business, I just may do that. But tell me something, why isn't it enough for you to just tell people how bad such things are and let them make their own choice? Why do you want to make that choice for them so bad?

"Oh and yes, you are a libertarian... by the way"

Yes yes, I've been reading here for many years and I know the MO. I know I'm a libertarian for daring to hold a different viewpoint than yours. Tomorrow I'll be called a Republican because of my 2nd Amendment views and the day after that I'll be called a flaming liberal because of my views on abortion and gay marriage. Its always the same old song and dance, when one is wrong and has no facts, they start tossing labels to avoid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. Once again, since you are having a hell of a time understanding

this

PSAs are NOT dictating to people what they can or can't eat. You want to eat a mickey D special with a shake by all means. Nobody is telling you NOT to eat it.

And having the government remove harmful chemicals from a commercial food chain is not dictating what you can or cannot eat.

Having PSAs encouraging people to do exercise is not forcing this on people

Encouraging people to eat five a day is not dictating they should.

Now you do have a problem with removing harmful things form the food chain. For some reason this is scary to you... propaganda works I guess.

The evil guv'ming has removed harmful things from the environment before... like oh DDT and Lead.

Real FOOD COPS, not the mythical ones you imagine, are right now AT WORK making sure your food does not have botulism, salmonella and a slew of other nasties... I guess you'd like them to go away since gosh darn it, we should trust the corporations.

So should we stop funding FDA and EPA? A simple yeah or nay will work here.

By the way, why did I call you a libertarian? The other person making this argument all the time is Ron Paul... HE IS a libertarian. If the shoe fits...

[Hekate]

66. Thanks to you I ordered The End of Overeating from Barnes & Noble, $15...

I signed up for it at the library and ended up #93 on the wait-list -- there must be a lot of people getting the message.

When I realized how little I might be able to buy it for I ordered it. For anyone who wants to do likewise, the deal is this: B&N members get a discount, which at the store would make the book $25. But for whatever reason, an online order is a lot cheaper, and delivery is free. It's still in hardcover.

I look forward to reading it, Nadin.

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. You welcome and I did enjoy the book

quite a bit.

These days looking at electronic versions myself.

Right now got myself some Chekov... his workbooks... as a working writer cannot wait to "crack that one open" as it were

[McCamy Taylor]

74. How can a call to action against the second biggest killer (after tobacco) get LESS THAN ZERO?

It is time to stop treating overweight as a moral/aesthetic issue and start addressing the health facts. If you are an older (post menopausal) woman, being mildly overweight is associated with longer life. But for every other demographic group, it cuts down on life expectancy and increases disease risks.

This is not a political statement. This is medical fact.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Quite simple

we have some libertarians here that see this as a personal responsibility shtick, leave me alone... never mind the corps have created quite a bit of trouble.

We also have people who still say... I don't see it.

And I could go on.

I am not surprised, or shocked any more.

And I do hope that we do get a GOOD PO, and that obesity is no longer treated as a pull by your bootstraps and starts to be treated as a health problem.

[Hello_Kitty]

91. It is also time to stop disguising moral/aesthetic issues as concerns for health.

Not to mention sexism, classism, racism, lookism, ageism, ableism, and a host of other 'isms' that are evoked by fat-shaming. But especially sexism. As I recounted upthread, when Jordin Sparks won American Idol a skinny woman named MeMe Roth formed a one-woman anti-obesity organization and went on several talk shows to bemoan the "bad example" that Sparks (who appeared to be a size 12 or 14) was setting for young women because of her size. MeMe was just worried about her health, you know. This led to several articles and news segments where commentators got to scrutinize this young woman's body and, of course, it was all about her "health". Funny how the prior year's Idol winner, Ruben Studdard, didn't elicit such concern even though he was morbidly obese. More recently, pundits got the opportunity to discuss the "health" of the new Surgeon General nominee, who happens to be female. I recall that C. Everett Koop was pretty stout but people didn't seem to be worried about him being a bad role model as Surgeon General.

If you are an older (post menopausal) woman, being mildly overweight is associated with longer life.

Oddly enough, that still doesn't stop the fat police from pretending to be "concerned" for their "health".

[anneboleyn]

96. Amen, Hello Kitty. I am surprised that other posters don't see this for the offensive rant

that it is. The poster continually reminds us that the op is at a perfect weight and that others should be shamed or regulated by the government if they are not. It is a thinly disguised attack on fatties who don't fit the public perception of beauty. I recommended that the poster go read the numerous medical studies at a well-known website (obesitymyths.com) and the poster ignores the post and instead rants something immature about libertarians. Now that's in keeping with educated public discourse!

[Hello_Kitty]

100. Thank you. The libertarian accusation is a howler.

I object to fat-bashing* and all of a sudden I'm John Stossel? Of course I'm for public policies at the corporate level to give people access to healthy food. But I'm not for micromanaging people's personal lives.

*Edit to add that it's not a personal thing for me since I'm a size 10.

[county worker]

75. It is extremely hard to get to your right body mass index if you've been above 30 for a long time.

It takes a great lifestyle change that can be sustained. For the great majority of us that is next to impossible. I am trying to lose 20 lbs and it is a struggle not to go back to my old ways.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Trust me I understand

but it can be done, as long as you are conscious of it. It is not will power, but executive decision.

Also the closer you get to ideal weight the harder it becomes to lose, I know.

[anneboleyn]

92. Do you realize that your posts sound obnoxious? "I am so perfect; I maintain a perfect weight"

I don't care at all what you weigh or how you perfect you are in terms of your eating habits. And no, I am not remotely insecure about my own body. I get far more attention from men than I can handle and I am married. So I am not some closet fatty trying to defend my nightly twinkie binges.

Starting an entire thread in which you continue to mention your ability to remain at a level of perfection that you criticize others for not reaching seems peculiar and not in the spirit of DU discussions, which are meant to explore topics, not stroke the egos of individual posters.

[Hello_Kitty]

95. She whined and put me on ignore because I refused to pay homage to her virtue

And it's worse than just her ego, she wants to punish people who fail to live up to her standards.

[anneboleyn]

110. An article from The American Journal of Public Health

The 1998 redefinition (of the BMI, which lowered the standard for being considered overweight or obese) prompted a group of researchers to criticize the new threshold in The American Journal of Public Health. They wrote:

"Current interpretations of the revised guidelines stigmatize too many people as overweight, fail to account for sex, race/ethnicity, age, and other differences; and ignore the serious health risks associated with low weight and efforts to maintain an unrealistically lean body mass … This seeming rush to lower the standard for overweight to such a level that 55% of American adults find themselves being declared overweight or obese raises serious concerns."
A research letter published in JAMA (the journal of the American Medical Association) reported that 97 percent of players in the National Football League are technically overweight and more than 50 percent are obese. The NFL responded by calling the BMI "bogus," since it "doesn’t consider body muscle versus fat."

From the website I recommended earlier.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

144. It's hormone imbalances.

Thyroid goes down after age 30. Testosterone goes down too (In BOTH men and women).

That's two good reasons why people cannot lose weight even when they diet and exercise sensibly.

Twenty million people in the US are hypothyroid. Most are undiagnosed and undertreated.

I've taken thyroid since I was twelve years old. It's an autoimmune disorder and thus common and increasing in frequency.

Good website: www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

Please read this article I posted in the Health Forum:
Women and Obesity - the Missing Link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x66961

Testosterone for Women
Contrarian Endocrinology: Testosterone for Women
by Karlis Ullis, MD with Josh Shackman, MA

I have found in my medical practice that giving women estrogen and progesterone and not testosterone makes it almost impossible for them to lose weight/fat.

[JVS]

79. What's cheaper, crappy food or healthy food? Ramen noodles aren't good for you, you know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. That is the NATIONAL FOOD POLICY that needs changing, and badly

for more reasons than just the Ramen

Monoculture is NOT good for the land either.

[Ron Green]

85. This thread has brought out the Libertarians and Anecdotalists. I don't know which is worse.

Choose your propaganda wisely, America.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. I think the libertarians actually

I mean they fear the Guv'ment, but all they fear is being done RIGHT NOW by their beloved corporations in the name of... freedom.

:sarcasm:

[Hello_Kitty]

94. It's also brought out the authoritarians.

The OP has admitted to wanting to tax junk food.

Choose your own propaganda wisely.

[anneboleyn]

98. I find the op's desire to control fat people a bit peculiar. The op read one book from amazon and is

now a crusader against fat people.

[Hello_Kitty]

102. I know!

I haven't read the book yet but I've seen the guy who wrote it interviewed. He doesn't strike me as the type of person who wants to gin up a jihad against fat people.

[cigsandcoffee]

88. "and if I have to start taxing your shit"

That's just weird.

[anneboleyn]

90. I for one am so tired of the tirades against fat people. Ethnicity is also a

factor in many diseases (Type II diabetes is known to impact certain ethnic groups more than others) and obesity. As I recommended ealier, go to obesitymyths.com and look through some of the studies so that you have a more nuanced and humane view of the opinion you are professing. I am not sure what motivates you to post threads about the evils of fat people, but there are many, many issues facing our health care professionals and straining the health care system. Obesity has many factors, including ethnicity, so don't oversimplify while villifying people who already get endless amounts of negative shit directed their way all the time.

[Political Heretic]

101. Crisis? Everything is a crisis these days. No one has any sense of scale anymore.

Scale of 1 to 10. 10 being crisis. 1 being not a problem. Obesity falls somewhere in between the poles.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Actually it falls in the category of a health care crisis

it is just a slow moving one.

See our life expectancy is on the way down.

Granted, it is not the PUT OUT THAT FIRE NOW AND GET PEOPLE AND PUPPIES OUT... I was used to as an EMS worker...

But medium to long term, it is one that will skyrocket medical costs...

[Political Heretic]

105. Thus, sort of by definition, it is not a crisis.

It may become a crisis... at some unspecified point in the future. Maybe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. It is like the use of the term pandemic by the WHO...

to those not in the medical field it sounds awful, but even the WHO has used the term, as well as epidemic

This is not only the US...

Now if you choose NOT to use the term because you are using one definition, fine by me. I will go by what is used now by health authorities, and yes, they have used the term crisis...

And it is not at some point in the future, but NOW.

We have, in the US. 30 % of the population who are obese...

Here are some numbers some way dated

http://www.food.gov.uk/healthiereating/advertisingtochildren/promotion/issues/obesityratesworldwide/

http://www.iotf.org/database/index.asp

In short, it is a serious problem

By the way here is the definition

crisis |ˈkrīsis|
noun ( pl. -ses |-ˌsēz|)
a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger : the current economic crisis | a family in crisis | a crisis of semiliteracy among high school graduates.
• a time when a difficult or important decision must be made : a crisis point of history.
• the turning point of a disease when an important change takes place, indicating either recovery or death.
• the point in a play or story when a crucial conflict takes place, determining the outcome of the plot.
ORIGIN late Middle English (denoting the turning point of a disease): medical Latin, from Greek krisis ‘decision,’ from krinein ‘decide.’ The general sense dates from the early 17th cent.

Look at number two, because that is the use right now.

And here are the thesaurus... chose any you like

crisis
noun
1 the situation had reached a crisis: critical point, turning point, crossroads, watershed, head, moment of truth, zero hour, point of no return, Rubicon, doomsday; informal crunch; Medicine climacteric.
2 the current economic crisis: emergency, disaster, catastrophe, calamity; predicament, plight, mess, trouble, dire straits, difficulty, extremity.

[TexasObserver]

109. America is fatter than ever, and lives longer than ever.

While we are told that obesity is an epidemic, it is a fact that our life expectancy is longer than ever. If it were truly that big a problem, would we have so many obese elderly?

I agree that overeating is a problem, and that foods are designed to trigger eating by consumers. Both are very real problems and deserve attention. But the country seems to be living a long time in its obese state.

[tabbycat31]

114. quit subsidizing HFCS

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. absolutely, that goes back to Nixon

and it goes beyond HCFS... it also includes things like monoculture and shit like that.


That would be a good start though... and global weather change may bring that about.

[Retired AF Dem]

118. A woman has the right what to do with their bodies

I have the right what to put in mine. You cant have one without the other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. And the government has the absolute right to take out

of the market place dangerous materials

They did with lead in paint.

You have a problem with the government removing HFCS?

By the way, if you chose to have a quadruple cheeseburger with eight slices of bacon fried in lard, knock yourself silly. I don't give a fuck if you do that.

But as a citizen I have the absolute RIGHT to demand that all those additives and transfats that ARE BAD for me to be removed from the food chain. Does removing transfats scare you?

By the way if after that burger you want to have a triple frapucino with a quadruple donut sundae, with snickers and other crap, go for it. Stuff your face silly. By all means. But I also have the right to DEMAND the HFCS which has something to do with this crisis be removed from the food chain

Oh and after you stuff your face that way, finally after a few months or years of that, we DO HAVE bariatric ambulances these days to take you to the hospital. Nobody is saying you cannot, but for god sakes. I have the right to demand a change in our food policies, so those people who are POOR and cannot afford to buy organic can buy canned goods that don't have that crap in them, and that they can AFFORD to buy a FRESH APPLE

I also have the right to demand our national food policies change so there are LESS fast food places and MORE fresh food markets (that sell cheaply) so the working poor can afford to eat better.

But if you want to stuff your face with twinkies after the quadruple cheeseburger, with bacon fried in lard... by all means. Where do you want the delivery?

Or are you afraid of the poor who WOULD LIKE to have better food choices and can't right now to also go, my body my choice... because dearie they don't have it right now, and partly it is because people like you refuse to learn WHY they don't have it. But by all means stuff your face... and do the favor to let the 9.11 dispatcher know that you are 800 pounds when EMS is finally called, so they get the bariatric ambulance, and the industrial equipment to lift you, as well as the demolition gear.

[Hello_Kitty]

124. This OP started out saying she wanted to tax people and now it's come to this.

Playing the guilt card about the poor while describing gluttonous eating in a way that's damn near pornographic. Make no mistake, this one is a control freak.

[anneboleyn]

136. Wasn't there a thread yesterday about the fact that Americans ridicule the obese?

Apparently the op missed the point of that thread: that the obese are singled out for scrutiny but are actually ridiculed and shamed. For their own good, of course. Right.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. Wait, aren't you yourself obese?

I could have sworn you went on at lenghts about it several months ago, advocating for obese people when similar attitudes cropped up.

[Hello_Kitty]

125. Former fatties - former anything for that matter - tend to be insufferable. eom

[Creena]

127. Aw.

I'm not that bad. My weight problem was due to nobody but myself.

[Creena]

142. Whoops.

I totally misunderstood the point. I thought insufferable in that they blamed everyone else for their problems. After reading other post, I think it's insufferable in that they judge others...got it now.

[anneboleyn]

137. Figures. As I suspected. Notice that everyone is on "ignore" who dared to disagree with the rant.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

140. Really?

I guess my educated hunch about formerly obese people usually wringing their hands over this upthread was right again......