Two Presidents Against the Base

[dem629]

A few weeks ago, after he got back from North Korea, there was talk that former President Clinton would help President Obama sell the health care bill. I wondered how effective this would be. Not because President Clinton doesn't have his strengths, but rather because, well, who exactly would his audience be?

Would the White House send him out there hoping to convince the Blue Dogs? He's pretty much a Blue Dog himself. How could he talk them into a stronger bill?

Would the White house hope he'd have some effect on the teabaggers and town-hall brawlers? Of course not.

And what would his experience from the 1993 health insurance reform failure bring to the table? Only one thing: He's the one guy who can say (in one form or another), "A weak reform bill is better than no bill at all." And that's exactly what he did.

He was sent out to pacify those of us who could see that we were headed toward getting a bill with no public option, and that the White House wasn't going to fight for it.

So what we have here now, basically, is a former Democratic president giving cover to the current Democratic president, against the base of the party -- the people who make up the grass-roots of the party, the people without whom neither of them would have been elected.

[byebyegop]

1. ....sooooo WHAT ARE YOU doing to help? Whining on a messageboard does not count. n/t

[dem629]

3. Do you have any suggestions as to how

we can overcome the message of two presidents?

I live in state with two Republican senators and my congressman is a Republican. I've called their offices, but I don't expect much.

I've written a LTTE in my local paper. I've called a local (right-wing) radio show and put up with their talking points on the air.

What are your ideas?

[byebyegop]

16. You mean the message that we need health reform including a public option?

You mean that message? Because that is what they are saying over and over and over again but you don't seem to be hearing that for some strange reason.

Where you seem to be getting confused is that the USA, last time I checked, is not a dictatorship. A prez does not have ultimate authority. They have executive authority. BIG difference!

[dem629]

17. When was the last time you checked?

:eyes: Yes, I know we don't live in a dictatorship. Thank you for reminding us of that.

I'll ask one more time: Since you asked me what I'm doing, what are you doing? I mean, other than whining about other people whining on a message board, or whatever it is you're trying to accomplish?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rubberducky]

7. Was that the BEST response you could come up with?

[byebyegop]

13. Once again, WHAT ARE YOU doing to help?

Whatever it is you seem to think you are hearing is not what I or most other people are hearing. Seems too many people are listening to the media echo chamber and not the FACTS!

[dem629]

15. What "FACTS" are you referring to?

[byebyegop]

18. You know how to use Google or do I need to cut and paste for you? n/t

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[byebyegop]

39. Where are your facts? I have truth. You just have cheese and whine! n/t

[Individualist]

45. All you have is snark and name calling.

Typical DLC tactics.

[dem629]

46. I figured. Thanks for the confirmation. That's why the ignore feature is great.

[Individualist]

48. So true.

I intend to make use of it as well.

[byebyegop]

67. Said the pot to the kettle. n/t

[JVS]

53. What can we do? They only ask us what we think once every 4 years and then they bullshit us a lot.

[SammyWinstonJack]

69. +1

:thumbsup:

[WatchWhatISay]

2. Our anger is building, isn't it?

[dem629]

4. Seems like a small portion of us, sadly. Too many sit by.

[redqueen]

5. Why are you including Obama in that?

Is it the trial balloon? He backtracked.

And those in congress see the writing on the wall, too.

Not sure what the gloom and doom act is supposed to accomplish... can you clarify?

[dem629]

6. If he has stated he'll fight for a public option, I'll admit I was wrong to include him.

I don't see anything to suggest that, but of course we can't all see everything.

My post is the way I see things now, but I have an open mind to new information. Actually, I hope like hell I'm wrong.

[redqueen]

8. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6444736

He isn't out there pounding the podium about it, but he's been consistent other than that one trial balloon.

CNN and Politico are sure doing a good job of getting folks worried.

[FrenchieCat]

9. People want to be worried, and so Politico and CNN gives them an excuse.

Same folks gobbling up each and everything that each talking head and Town Hall disrupter says as Breaking news.....unfortunately for them, and for us.

[dem629]

12. Which quote from a recent speech or press conference reassures you?

And you're damn right I'm worried. Most of the reason I supported Obama was for this very reason. It's a big deal to a lot of people, including those of us who are already covered.

[Spazito]

25. Here are some quotes directly from President Obama...

President Obama speaking to the AMA, June 15, 2009

"President Obama walked into the lion's den on Monday, delivering a lengthy speech on his approach to health care reform in front of the annual gathering of the American Medical Association. But he did not dodge the major issue of contention -- the role the government will play in remaking the insurance market. "The public option is not your enemy, it is your friend," Obama declared at one point. His prepared remarks were a bit more detailed:

If you don't like your health coverage or don't have any insurance, you will have a chance to take part in what we're calling a Health Insurance Exchange.... You will have your choice of a number of plans that offer a few different packages, but every plan would offer an affordable, basic package. And one of these options needs to be a public option that will give people a broader range of choices and inject competition into the health care market so that force waste out of the system and keep the insurance companies honest."

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/healthlawprof_blog/2009/06/president-obama-speaks-to-the-ama-the-public-option.html

President Obama, in a letter to Senator Kennedy and Senator Baucus, dated June 2, 2009:

"I strongly believe that Americans should have the choice of a public health insurance option operating alongside private plans. This will
give them a better range of choices, make the health care market more competitive, and keep insurance companies honest."

http://healthreform.gov/2009healthcareletterpres.pdf

President Obama during an interview with Jim Lehrer, dated July 20, 2009:

"PRESIDENT OBAMA: You know, the interesting thing is we've actually been very clear on what we want. I've said that I want to make sure that if you have health care you're going to keep it. I've said that we've got to reform the insurance industry so people aren't being excluded for preexisting conditions, that it's not as easy for insurance companies to dump people when they change jobs or if they lose their job. I've been very clear about the fact that it has to be paid for. I've been very clear about the fact that we should have a public plan."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec09/obama_07-20.html

Edited to add link to letter to Senator Kennedy and Senator Baucus.

[dem629]

28. All of those predate the beginning of the backtrack.

"The public option, whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of healthcare reform. This is just one sliver of it, one aspect of it." - President Obama, August 16, 2009

[Spazito]

37. I can see why you did not provide a link....

Here is what else he said at that SAME time:

"Obama -- who ribbed Lahn, 23, for his "chutzpah" in offering to take on the president in "all-out" debate -- replied that he still believes the administration and Congress can craft a public option that would not be subsidized by taxpayers.

"I think there are ways we can address those competitive issues," Obama told Lahn, "and you're absolutely right, if they're not entirely addressed, then that raises a set of legitimate problems."

But, he added, "the notion that somehow just by having a public option you have the entire private marketplace destroyed is just not borne out by the facts."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-healthcare16-2009aug16,0,7401024.story

[dem629]

40. Right, I was hoping no one would ever find it on the Internet if I didn't give the link.

:eyes:

I'll ask again: after his statement of "whether we have it or not" (is that a strong stand?) and that it's a "sliver" of reform, in what public way has he stood his ground on the public option? That was the beginning of the backtrack and saying he believed they could craft an agreement on August 16 is far different from sticking to his earlier promise that we would have it. Since that day, the debate has changed, in the public and among right-leaning Democrats, so whether he believed an agreement could be reached on that day is not the central issue. It's that he started the backtrack and since that day, there's nothing in firm support of it.

[Spazito]

57. You are taking that one phrase without the context in which it was said...

which was out of frustration and AFTER he stated, yet again, his support for a public option. There has been no backtrack as much as you and others may opine otherwise.

[dem629]

58. Out of frustration?

That's getting awfully close to making excuses for him, and doing his spinning. I'm not interested in a defense of Obama as a politician. I couldn't care less about that or people's undying devotion to any single office holder.

I'm interested in achieving legislation based on principles. That's what matters.

So I'll ask again:

After that day, which quotes by President Obama in support of the public option are reassuring to you?

[Spazito]

61. You obviously don't read links when supplied...

the reference to 'frustration' is in the article by the LA Times. As to your question "which quotes by President Obama in support of the public option are reassuring to me?", they all are. I have seen no backtracking on the public option. I have seen, however, the media and others opining based on facts not in evidence as you have done in your OP and elsewhere in your thread.

Perhaps your time would be better spent castigating the 'blue dogs', demanding they get on board with the President on this.

[dem629]

63. Oh. "All of them." (edited)

That clears it up.

And, yes, you're right, the "frustration" comment came out of the article in this sentence: "The president also expressed frustration about the emphasis on the government-sponsored option and left open the possibility that it would not be part of a final bill."

Seems to back up what some of us are saying. If you're going to rely on one part of that sentence, you have to take it all, don't you?

Do YOU read the links YOU post?

[Spazito]

65. Yes, but I read them IN context not in isolated bits...

unlike others. You asked for recent quotes by President Obama where he supports the public option. You were given 3 in my first response and, ironically, provided with a forth due to your cherry-picking of a quote which when researched added another, quite funny, actually. It is my belief you are being disingenuous in your posts when you 'request' quotes and I believe that due to your sorry attempts to dismiss them when provided. It is clear no quote from the President would be sufficient to open what I perceive to be an already closed and locked mind hence my part in this debate is over.

[redqueen]

21. It's fucking annoying.

OMGWTFBBQ DR NANCY SAID BLAH BLAH BLAH! :eyes:

Give it a rest alraedy with the Chicken Little routine... but like you said... some seem to enjoy it.

[dem629]

23. Who is relying on Dr. Nancy quotes?

[dem629]

10. Not sure it's just Politico and CNN. It's Ed Schultz, too.

And the President himself. Part of the problem is, as you put it, he's not out pounding the podium. Why not?

Why is it a "sliver"..."whether we have it or not"?

I know what's on the website. I care more what he's saying to the public out of his own mouth. Again, if there are clear and uncompromising quotes in favor of the public option, I'll retract everything and be happy that I was wrong.

[redqueen]

11. Ed is saying Obama's going to unveil a bill with no public option?

Really?

[dem629]

14. I guess he's dedicating huge portion of his show to defending the public option

because he's sure we'll get it?

But back to the real issue: If you find any quotes of the sort I mentioned, please tell me.

[redqueen]

19. So, he's not. Thanks. (nt)

[dem629]

22. Right. He's as sure about it as you are, which is why he's worried and you're not.

Yes! It makes perfect sense!

Once again, if you come up with anything that supports your view that President Obama is fighting for a public option, I'll be happy to see it. And I promise I won't ask and make it obvious that you can't, for a fourth time.

[joeybee12]

24. They can't come up with anything to support their blind cheerleading...

...the sad part is they can't see the writing on the wall.

[dem629]

26. I think we have a case of defending the politician rather than defending principles.

Reminds me of the die-hard Bush supporters.

[joeybee12]

32. Yeah, and the problem with that is then Obama will do what he wants...

...and what his handlers want if no one holds him accountable.

[dem629]

34. That's the problem with every politician, which is a good reason to stick to principles

instead of personalities.

We've had far too much of that in this country.

[Hansel]

59. Your statement is rude, insulting and uncalled for.

Just because people do not feel the need to get upset about every rumor coming from the media does not mean they are "blind cheer-leading". It just means that they choose not to get upset over every rumor coming from the media. I'm sure they can see just as well as you can.

And it doesn't make you an enlightened soothsayer that you choose to buy these stories hands down. Some of us know the condition of the media and their inability to analyze and accurately report the news. Is it possible that maybe you are the one not seeing so well?

Also, you seem to believe that everyone here is in agreement with how you think that health care reform should be handled and that those of us who don't panic over being offered anything less than what you want are somehow blind and mindless cheer-leaders. It could be that they just don't necessarily agree with you.

[redqueen]

27. Like I said... he's only hinted once that he'd pass a bill with no PO.

Sorry, I'm not ready to do the Chicken Little dance based on that and a story from Politio that CNN picked up.

[dem629]

29. What quotes after the August 16 town hall are reassuring to you?

[joeybee12]

30. And MSNBC, and the Washington Post, and the NY Times...

...let's see what he says in his speech...he will IMPLY it's off the table.

[dem629]

31. I'm looking forward to it, too, and hope I'll be cheering by the end

due to a strong, clear stance in support of the public option.

[joeybee12]

33. Uh-oh...

...I'm willing to admit if I was wrong if he does have a strong statement in support, but I really doubt I will be wrong.

[dem629]

36. I'm hoping we're both wrong. :)

[dem629]

62. We can add KO to this. He just said:

"Is the President too late in standing up for this?"

Talking to Markos now.

But I guess WE are the only ones skeptical. Funny, huh? ;)

[bobbolink]

42. AFLCIO has come out publicly and said if there is no strong public option, the Dems can't count on

union support.

Are they now being "unAmerican"? "Unpatriotic"?

Why can't the rest of us Dems draw the same line in the sand?

To get to the point, do YOU believe that YOU are being a traitor to the party by questioning the same dynamics that so many others are questioning?

[dem629]

43. You're asking me about questioning the leader and the party? I raised the question/topic.

[bobbolink]

47. um, yeah, I understand that. And I see the stuff that was thrown at you.

So, I'm asking you... if it's OK for a union to draw a line in the sand, isn't it OK for other Dems to do the same?

[dem629]

49. Oh. You're asking me instead of them. Got it.

I don't believe it's just OK to question; I believe it's necessary.

I guess we agree.

[bobbolink]

51. More than agree.

What I'm getting out is that this juncture is bringing out the worst in the conservative dems. By all the name-calling and judgements, it's clear that those of us who are ready to take a strong stand will be treated as Pariahs.

So, I'm asking... is that OK?

Do we have the stomach for it?

Will we suffer fools gladly?

or, put another way.... is it any different to take derision from "fellow" dems than it is to take it from the RW?

[dem629]

54. My preference (and I guess that's what you're asking) all along has been Medicare for all.

The way I see it, we gave away single-payer. Fine. We could still have a public option and private insurance and let people "vote" with their choice of which one they'll go for.

So then the public option started to become negotiable, with even the President indicating it on August 16th and making no strong statements of support since then.

So what we're down to now, it seems, is exactly what the Republicans want: Weak reform, everything still in the private sector.

And I KNOW we have Democrats who support that. That's a problem, but an even bigger problem is the Democrats who are defending this wobbly maybe-maybe-not stance on the public option coming out of the White House. (Axelrod just did it again this afternoon.)

Those who say they support the public option but seem to have more interest in supporting the President no matter what are the ones who are the problem. Their devotion to party and one politician is sickening.

So it's no different than what we heard from the RW for the last eight years. It's the same M.O.

[bobbolink]

56. Yes, the name-calling and the attacks are the same M.O.

There are going to be a whole lot of us Pariahs.

We need a Pariah Club.

:hi:

[bobbolink]

35. And what we get from that is eruption within the party, resulting in one faction

calling names and demeaning the other faction.

Just as you see here at DU now.

We on the left have been told to leave before, and maybe it's time for us to do so.

Then next November those calling us "whiners" can figure out a new voting campaign.

[dem629]

44. I believe in principles over party.

[bobbolink]

50. Absolutely! Especially when those principles concern the well-being of the citizens

of this nation.

To do otherwise is to parrot the RW path.

[Hansel]

52. I will wait to hear what Obama has to say before getting all outraged.

This knee jerk outrage over everything the media says or implies about Obama's intentions is really astounding considering how woefully inaccurate and grossly incompetent they have been over the past couple of decades.

Their disrespect for the office of the president since Obama has been in it is palpable. However, we are suppose to freak out over everything they write about him?

Have you ever thought that just maybe Bill Clinton is speaking from experience and is asking the netroots to just calm down and not throw out the baby with the bath water? It's not like he has no credibility on the subject.

We have to walk before we can run. Once health care reform passes, the people's fears will ease. It will be that much harder in the future for the Republicans to obstruct when Democrats try to improve upon it because the fear tactics will have been neutralized.



Edit to add: My predication about the public option. It will come in the form of allowing all citizens without employer provided health insurance to join the plan for Federal employees. That is what I expect Obama will be most likely to support.

[dem629]

55. That's pretty much all we can do, wait for next Weds.

I don't see that as a reason to sit back, if one is truly concerned about making sure the public option is part of the reform.

Your question about Bill Clinton is exactly what I said. I disagree with that approach.

[Hansel]

60. I don't see any reason to sit back either.

I think it is a good idea to hold their feet to the fire. I just am not ready to rely on this media regarding their reporting about Obama. They aren't very good at it.

I think the Obama has likely already made his decision about the public option and I think it is going to be an option to buy into the Federal employee plan. This is what Amy Klobuchar has floated and it seems to have the support of a more progressive segment of the health care community (at least from what I could tell from the call). I got the impression from listening to her that this plan has Obama's ear. I don't know why I got that impression, it's just a feeling. This would be kind of 1/2 way between a full public option and co-ops, and might be a reasonable compromise.

Yeah, I know that that is what you said about Bill Clinton. I think that he is kind of right so we do disagree on that. OtOH, But I don't expect Obama to abandon everything re: a PO. I think he is going to have a good bill (not perfect) with something a little less public than some would like. I think once it passes and the public calms down, he can move ahead on improving it going forward.

My main concern is how to prevent insurance companies from jacking up prices even after this legislation is passed. I want to see something that addresses that. Maybe he thinks buying into the Federal employee's program will do that. Maybe if they want to participate and get all of the added "insurees", they will be required to hold down their prices.

[dem629]

64. I wouldn't be as worried if it weren't for Keith and Ed joining the MSM that people are dismissing.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I really do.

[Hansel]

66. Me too, but I have since read something else about a trigger PO.

And I'm not liking it. It is some agreement with Olympia Snowe that the insurance companies will have 2 years to get their ducks in a row and if they don't lower costs congress will pass a PO.

Now you know how that is going to work? The insurance companies will step up their campaign donations and every RW candidates' slogan will be "there will be socialist government run health care if you don't vote for me". It will be the new "if you vote for me I will stop abortion and gay marriage". It would be foolish to fall for this. Snowe might be trustworthy, but the rest of them will be salivating over this gift. So I hope I was right the 1st time.

Okay now I'm starting to fall into the getting outrage before I hear from Obama trap. Dang!

[bobbolink]

68. trap, schmap....

You are entitled to your feelings and ability to proceed as you see fit, and so are the others of us who see things differently.

The problem comes in the name-calling, and demanding that we "fall in line".

I have no problem at all with you seeing it differently... I have some friends who worked their asses off for Obama, and they aren't feeling the same huge disappointment and fear that I am, and they accept me for what I see and feel, and I accept them for what they see and feel.

NEITHER of us would even consider using terms like "whiner" to describe the other.

THAT is the problem.

It's time to drop judgemental language, and accept each other.

If DUers can't do that, then they have to accept that many of us won't be around next Nov. when they are seriously worried about "getting out the vote".

Harshness and rudeness has consequences.

THAT is what the problem is.

I would wish that less than a week after the funeral, that we could all take a page from Teddy, and treat each other with much more kindness.

We all deserve it.