You have got to be fucking kidding me...

[armyowalgreens]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g4OiK8Bkks3epqQ-eXeiSGX6cu7gD9AF7KIO0

We are extending the contract with Blackwater!?!?!?!?!?!?


Obama Administration, what the fuck is the matter with you?


And what the hell is this?

Contractors Outnumber U.S. Troops in Afghanistan
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/02/world/asia/02contractors.html



Goddamn-it to fucking hell in a fiery blaze this is ridiculous on so many levels. Hey apologists, I don't give a fuck that it's only been 7 months. This is completely unacceptable.

[dana_b]

1. people are "unrec" already

amazing. To HELL with Blackwater and this is ridiculous,

[Stinky The Clown]

27. The usual assortment of assholes, self-appointed moralizers, trolls, and true believers

The unrec usually goes positive when they finish shooting their wads.

[armyowalgreens]

39. *shudders*...

I don't want to think about the trolls shooting their wads.

:puke: :yoiks: :hide:

[lib_wit_it]

56. Then you really don't want to read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6418386&mesg_id=641838h

[Ken Burch]

117. Er..we really CAN'T read that.

n/t.

[TK421]

57. Sometimes I think the rec-unrec feature is a reason for the admins to shoot their wads

inspiration and all that shit....look at a bunch of stuff...laugh at a bunch of stuff, and flush it down the toilet

[AtheistCrusader]

169. I figured at some point it would be revealed as a massive honeypot for disruptors and trolls.

At least, I keep hoping it is.

[NoSheep]

59. This IS unacceptable. I heard it today. I've written my letter stating my position.

Who else?

[barbiegeek]

98. I voted 2 get out of IRAQ & find Bin Laden in Afgan

if we have to increase troops in Afghanistan to corner Bin Laden in the mountains of Pakistan and help them keep their nuclear weapons safe I'm o.k. with that. And I have family fighting in Afghanistan. I also think we should DRAFT republicans to do the fighting, but that will never happen.

[dhpgetsit]

139. We are in Afghanistan to protect gas & petroleum pipelines.

We could have (maybe did) have Bin Laden in the bag years ago.

[humbled_opinion]

215. Oh cool I thought we were in Afghanistan

To promote the deviate sexual lifestyles of young closeted homosexual frat boys posing as security guards...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/01/eveningnews/main5280465.shtml

My bad...

[dhpgetsit]

219. That's just our clever way

of inciting the Taliban fundies and help them in their recruiting efforts.

[Cherchez la Femme]

146. What?

Your logic is confusing.

Pakistan is a "friend" of the U.S.
so why load Afghanistan with troops
and death?

Our "friend" should hand Bin Laden over
--or they're not our friends.

I'm sorry you have family members in Afghanistan. It would have been over long ago if we got OBL in Tora Bora, but then we couldn't finish that mission because Iraq and its oil was singing its siren song to BushCo;
er, I mean WMD! WMD North, East, South & West; all over Iraq!

As much as I was against our war(s), if BushCo's original plans
--get Bin Laden in Afghanistan, take out Saddam then Get Out!--
were followed we would have been out of both countries years ago.


Yet we're still there and even though we voted for "Change",
that hasn't changed one whit.

The "Hope" has been hemorrhaging since January.
I'm surprised its not bled out yet.

[madeline_con]

202. What dhpgetsit said. n/t

[butterfly77]

168. They won't hear you and..

even if Obama said he was leaving Afghanistan today they would expect everyone there to pick up and leave by tommorrow. They are soooo,sooo angry about afghanistan as though they didn't hear this during the campaign now the blackwater contracts I don't agree with but, I will wait until I hear more..

I won't let the Freepers/Trolls lead me into attack,attack,attack on every issue. I really do wonder where in the hell where some of these people were during the past eight yrs as we marched,and shouted to the hilltops about bush and what he was doing but no, he was there great leader hero.

Now,every single day we have to be outraged over everything Obama does without knowing all of the facts. You see: " I like to know what I am talking about before I speak". For, anyone who doesn't like what I said here is some more.

Yes,we need to hold our president accountable but,I notice everyday there is a complaint on every issue and we knew some of what Pres.Obama would be left with but we don't know all. We don't know what threats or other issues are being talked about in the background.

A lot of people don't know what in the hell they are talking about on some of these issues they listen to the media's soundbites and then they run away with it. THe post talks about the contractors and I have not been for them all along during the bush years because they have caused a lot of the problems that we now have in Iraq and Afghanistan,now because much of this stuff has been hidden and it is all coming out now on Pres.Obama's watch.

THe military should be the ones serving food and other duties for the military. Does anyone remember when they mess hall was blown up because they had Iraqis and others working there? I also want to know how much is suppose to be done in these first few months. If everything is done in the first few months what will he do in the next three and a half years?

[Raster]

80. The unec feature has certainly worked out well, eh?

[BonnieJW]

107. I have sent these articles to the White House

numerous time expressing my outrage that we are spending our tax dollars to pay murderers. I never get a response and they're still doing it.

[dotymed]

76. IT'S SAD, BUT A REALITY

 That both parties are just different arms of the same beast.
I fell for the promises too. Transparency, responsive
government, etc...The man I voted for would have never treated
the American people this way. We need to be out of
Afghanistan, Iraq...everywhere that we are being
imperialistic.

We have to DEMAND public campaign financing. We need to START
NOW with a third party. That is our only chance of fielding an
actual, proven, candidate, who can compete with these two
"Parties." Personally, Kucinich & Sanders, would
be a "dream team." With their experience and proven
Progressive credentials, it speaks volumes about our current
President, that he has not appointed either of them to
substantial posts...


PLEASE GO TO "BRADBLOG.COM" AND VIEW THE SIBEL
EDMOND'S TESTIMONY."

[liberalmike27]

126. Agree Somewhat

I wanted them to withdraw from both wars, but the MIC, the military industrial complex extends to every state, or at least 48 states, that have arms manufacturers. They did that on purpose, and it has great power, and it contains a fully compliant media, that will excuse and promote any war, because once in, getting out is a whole lot harder.

I also wonder how much it is more of a pragmatic decision to keep troops, or increase troops in Afghanistan. Think about it--if he brings home a few hundred thousand more people, they will be unemployed, in a bad jobs market. It'll make his numbers look worse, and the economy worse, and people will likely lose jobs in the MIC too.

But talk of this sort of thing, or the connections between money and the MIC and Congress, are not allowed in the corporate media. Most of them have military companies under the same corporate umbrella, like GE, that makes jet engines, and likely even more stuff that our military uses.

Any serious discussion of the debt should go straight to our military spending, as each year, since WW 2, we've spent massive dollars on killing foreigners, for one reason or the other--we've got a better system, or we don't like the commmies, or they might have weapons we don't want them to have, or we supported this guy for a while, but now it's convenient to take his oil and kick him out, or we need your country to run our pipelines through, cause we don't really want the oil to go from the Caspian Sea region, out through Russia. Look for a lot of conflicts in that area in the coming years, Armenia, Azerbaijan, even Georgia to some extent was related to oil. The Caspian Sea basin will be the next area of conflict, or better, a continuing one, since it has vast oil resources, and we want our cut of that oil they put under their soil, just like in Iraq.

I guess in a nutshell, the forces are just too powerful for any president that gets elected, to actually do the right thing. They seem to always choose the politically expedient thing. I sort of wish they could only have one term. Then, they wouldn't have to worry about reelection. I also wish we'd choose more liberal candidates, like Kucinich, or Dean. But we always end up with some guy in the center-right, and then the compromise ends up being right-center-right, the end result, almost republican.

[Speciesamused]

188. Hear, Hear...

I say bring all the troops home all over the world and start rebuilding
this country back to what it use to be. You are correct their is no difference between the
Democrats with their hand in corporations and the Re pugs. They rule the American life.
It is time for a whole new party that truly cares about the American people.
The technology is all around us but we stand by while the elites dictate
how it will be in this so called Land of the Free.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sharp_stick]

2. You can thank Donald Rumsfeld

for cutting the shit out of the military and leaving them so short of bodies that they can't control the land they've taken.

Or you can rant and use the word fuck a lot, your choice.

[armyowalgreens]

4. Donald Rumsfeld isn't the one increasing troops presence in Afghanistan.

He isn't the one renewing a contract with murderers.

Go sit in the corner and think about what you just said.

[sharp_stick]

6. Well lets see here

you didn't use the word fuck, that's an improvement. Other than that, nah...

[armyowalgreens]

7. You support murderers because it's hard to find soldiers...

Do you feel happy with yourself?

Because it's making me FUCKING sick.

[Richardo]

85. So other than report this disturbing news and sharing the impotent word 'fuck' with us

What else are you doing? Some posters have already said they've written their letters in opposition.

See, that way, someone who can and might actually DO something about it gets to hear their opinion. Instead of say, throwing an internet tantrum in front of a bunch of other do-nothing deep thinkers.

On edit: Congrats on using another piece of GD gold: "You disagree with me so you support murderers." The response to your OP merely pointed out that Rumsfeld started us down this privatization of the military.

[Cherchez la Femme]

150. Wow

that short post is so full of assumption, misdirection, strawmen and ad hominem attacks I don't have the energy to delineate them.

And if "fuck" is so impotent why does it get so many people upset, and why do you remark upon it at all?

Yeesh.

[armyowalgreens]

170. If you support Blackwater, you support murderers. That isn't hard to grasp.

But like someone else said, your post is full of stupid assumptions and ad hominem.


That poster was trying to pawn responsibility off on someone who hasn't been in power in quite some time. How in the world could they have anything to do with the actions of the Obama administration?

I actually have already written a response and sent it to the white house via their website. I don't know how effective that will be. I may also attempt to contact my congresspersons.


If "fuck" is such an impotent word, why are you so bothered by the fact that I used it?

[Richardo]

194. I'm not bothered by the word, I'm just pointing out it doesn't have the edgy power you think it does

It impresses some of the deep-thinkers at DU, but that's about it.

I can see where that response to you was a non-sequitur to your post - what does Donald Rumsfeld have to do with this temporary contract extention? Nothing. However, that does NOT mean that poster, or myself "support murderers".

Talk about ad hominem strawmen.

You're a young guy. Thicken up your skin if you're going to wade into this stuff. Not everyone will support everything you type, even if you DO include the word 'fuck'.




On edit: Glad to hear you've contacted a representative about your concerns. That's doing something :patriot:

[armyowalgreens]

197. You justify support for the extension because...

the other contractor isn't ready. So you are providing an excuse as to why we should be okay with the extension. You are justifying support for murderers.

I don't give a shit if it's temporary. The fact is that we are giving more funding and more time to MURDERERS.

Call it whatever you want, but if you support this contract extension, you are putting your support behind murderers.

[Richardo]

200. I have two fucking(!) posts in this fucking(!) thread ...

...and I'd like you to point out where I support Blackwater, their contract, the extention of that contract, or anything else. I merely posted because in my opinion your initial fucking(!) post was fucking(!) weak. That's it.

Learn to read and comprehend, junior, in the meantime leave the debate to the adults (note: there are precious few adults on DU). Go ahead and throw a 'fuck' every now and again to get your Rec count up.

[armyowalgreens]

203. What exactly is the point of your little preach-fest?

Do you or do you not support the extension? If you don't support it, why did you put yourself in the same boat as the other poster...

"However, that does NOT mean that poster, or myself "support murderers".


I hadn't said that you supported murderers yet. So why did you say that?

It leaves me a bit suspicious about your stance on this subject.

I haven't been chastised for using the word "fuck" since high school. I find it pretty hilarious that you are taking issue with that word instead of my OP. But it never ceases to amuse me when people try to talk down to me because I'm young. Disagree with me because I'm wrong, not because I'm young.

I've met plenty of adults that are complete idiots.

[Richardo]

205. Here's the thing - I don't even disagree with your OP.

That's why in my first response I referred to 'disturbing news'.

My sole point was that you should do something more active than shout "Fuck" on an anonymous message board. You said you did by contacting your representative, and I gave you props for that. That's the core of our discussion, really.

I find that good messages are diminished if carelessly communicated - this comes from many years living among and trying to persuade right wingers in my family, workplace and all around me. The fan base at DU loves a good rant, and I guess it's good for the troops, but it does nothing to further the message. That's why I came to DU originally, to gather reasoned arguments and solid information to do battle with real-life political adversaries.

So maybe my POV is distorted by the lens I see DU through. You want to rally the troops, hey 250+ posters are right behind you. You accomplished what you wanted to do.

But I read posts for a different reason - to get some insight or strategy or nugget of knowledge or something I can use for MY purposes. So I'm a stylistic busybody - a tiger can't change his stripes.

But, that does not excuse YOU making fantastic leaps of reasoning that equate a criticism of your message with support for the other side. That's weak, and you really ought to work on that.

[armyowalgreens]

209. ...

Let me first say that I have no clue why my OP became so popular. I posted because I was pissed off. I figured it would get unrec'ed and plummet off the first page. So I didn't make this thread with the intention of it becoming some DU hit. It was not meant to rally the troops.


Second off, I clearly have jumped to conclusions with you. I apologize for that. But I will not apologize for what I said about the other poster. They were specifically trying to justify the contract extension.

[Richardo]

206. Dupey

:blush:

[armyowalgreens]

198. Also, I don't think the word "fuck" is edgy. I use it quite often...

But I use it especially often when I am angry. And I am angry.

I'm not trying to impress anyone by using the F-word. Are we still in elementary school?

[Richardo]

201. I'm glad you're not using it to impress. Because it says "tantrum" more than "anger"

Oh the third graders around here love it, so rock on, it will always get you Recs.

[armyowalgreens]

204. boo fucking hoo. Do you actually take issue with the OP?

Or are you just mad because I used the word "fuck"?

Grow a pair.

[Richardo]

207. See #205

[JuniperLea]

136. What would you suggest?

How would you handle this? You seem really good at bashing the opinions of others without giving even a clue as to how you think it should be handled.

[ZombieHorde]

21. Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person)

The following is taken from: http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum%20ad%20hominem

This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself. The most obvious example of this fallacy is when one debater maligns the character of another debater (e.g, "The members of the opposition are a couple of fascists!"), but this is actually not that common. A more typical manifestation of argumentum ad hominem is attacking a source of information -- for example, responding to a quotation from Richard Nixon on the subject of free trade with China by saying, "We all know Nixon was a liar and a cheat, so why should we believe anything he says?" Argumentum ad hominem also occurs when someone's arguments are discounted merely because they stand to benefit from the policy they advocate -- such as Bill Gates arguing against antitrust, rich people arguing for lower taxes, white people arguing against affirmative action, minorities arguing for affirmative action, etc. In all of these cases, the relevant question is not who makes the argument, but whether the argument is valid.

It is always bad form to use the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. But there are some cases when it is not really a fallacy, such as when one needs to evaluate the truth of factual statements (as opposed to lines of argument or statements of value) made by interested parties. If someone has an incentive to lie about something, then it would be naive to accept his statements about that subject without question. It is also possible to restate many ad hominem arguments so as to redirect them toward ideas rather than people, such as by replacing "My opponents are fascists" with "My opponents' arguments are fascist."

[QC]

43. Unfortunately, that's what now passes for shrewd, insightful commentary around here. n/t

[girl gone mad]

41. Are we back in Kindergarten?

Because I wish someone would have fucking told me.

[sabrina 1]

69. 'The land they've taken'

That's the point, isn't it? It's not our land, we don't belong there, and if we don't leave we'll be driven out eventually as has every other Empire that invaded that country. But why leave now when we can spend billions and make a few more war-mongers and mercenaries rich. And along the way, before we are driven out, we'll kill a lot more civilians and they'll kill as many of our soldiers as they can. That, of course, is a minor issue, the cost in human life.

If we don't have an army capable of fighting a war, we should be starting unnecessary wars. The fact that we had a bunch of war criminals in office for eight years starting wars, shouldn't prevent us from ending them, now that we supposedly have the power to do so.

What a waste of money, but most of all, lives this whole venture is. We should be spending the money on ensuring that we don't need to fight wars for oil. But as long as the MIC owns this country, we will never make any progress.

[dotymed]

77. THIS IS NOT A POPULAR IDEA

I think we should re institute the draft. No deferments or
exemptions except for people who are extremely disabled. Two
year mandatory terms for every citizen who reaches a certain
age. If there is a war, then each soldier will be required to
fight a specified number of months.
If we had this law, then, I believe, war would be the very
last resort. When the children (no National Guard deferments)
of the wealthy and elite must serve, along with ordinary
citizens, politicians will resort to diplomacy. It will also
benefit the draftees, they will be guaranteed lifetime
benefits for serving their country, including free college and
health care.

[jmowreader]

103. Your idea is good but has a very large flaw

Namely, in Iraq we didn't have to resort to diplomacy, or any of that. We INVADED Iraq for reasons we're still not entirely clear about, but which seem to have quite a lot to do with oil and rather more with snagging one of the two places you absolutely need to control if you want to control Southwest Asia--specifically, Iraq and the Straits of Hormuz. If you have both of those you can control any nation in the Persian Gulf basin without resorting to ground troops.

Now the question is, if the sons and daughters of the Bush Rangers were in uniform in 2003, would Shrub have invaded Iraq? Quite probably not. The people who funded Bush's 2004 campaign wouldn't have done it if their kids were coming home in boxes, and Shrub knows it.

[dotymed]

226. THAT IS WHAT I SAID

Where is my "flaw?" If the wealthy and/or the
politicians know that their children will be in any war that
happens, they will not, have the damned war in the first
place. They will use diplomacy.

[jmowreader]

232. Stop. Back up.

Diplomacy works when you've got an international crisis that's threatening to evolve into a shooting war, and diplomats can sit down together and talk the thing out.

That's not what happened in Iraq. Bush decided to say Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and used that as his casus belli. Iraq said they didn't have them and Bush said they lied. Iraq willingly led international inspectors anywhere they wanted to go to prove there were no WMDs, and Bush said they were being obstinate. Every damn thing Iraq did to attempt to avert war, Bush stepped on. Hell, Saddam was even willing to abdicate his throne and leave the country, and Bush leaned on the nation that was going to take him. And then we spent the next six months looking for nonexistent WMDs. We even wound up publicizing the discovery of three or four chemical agent shells that had been in the desert so long all the agent in them evaporated through the fuze wells as proof Saddam had WMD. Yes, kids, we know Saddam had WMD, but four shells that fell out of a truck and a copy of "1001 Fiendish Plans" in Chemical Ali's bookcase does not prove a WMD program. Bush CAUSED this war. No amount of diplomacy (unless it was a diplomat with a wall-to-wall counseling manual in his back pocket and a piece of dimension lumber in his hands) could have stopped that war.

[dotymed]

243. BUT IF BUSH KNEW THAT JENNA AND BARBARA

would have been required to be on the "front line",
along with all of the other repub kids....his "war"
would not have started.

[DutchLiberal]

127. Wasn't there a draft at the time of the Vietnam War?

It didn't exactly prevent Eisenhower/Kennedy (depending on who you want to lay the blame) from starting US military involvement over there. One much heard argument for reinstating the draft, is that it will mobilize the people sooner and in greater numbers to protest the war. But when have politicians ever listened to the protests of the citizens? Nixon kept expanding the Vietnam War when millions of people were in the streets opposing it.

[Sterling]

190. It did not stop them from starting it then but…

It sure as hell was a factor in getting us out and was the reason that they instituted a “professional” military after that cluster %$#@. After Vietnam the game changed a great deal. If we had a draft before 9-11 things would have been handled much differently.

There also seems to be a trend towards privatizing our military. In some ways it has always existed but now it goes all the way down to boots on the ground. This is VERY dangerous especially given the fact we now have a giant private military in control of radical RW fundies. Think what that could mean for our domestic situation. If the Rwers decide to stage a coup, they have the means to do it at their fingertips. Given the tone of the RWers over the past few months it is clear they are at least inciting an environment where a new civil war is more than possible if they are not actually planning one.

[dotymed]

227. YES, WE HAD THE DRAFT DURING VIET-NAM

But...we also had "loopholes" for the wealthy. Like
"college deferments, the National Guard, etc..) I am
proposing NO DEFERMENTS. Every citizen (of a certain age),
will have to actively participate in the war. If a person is
deemed physically or mentally (100% total and permanent)unfit
then maybe some type of deferment. No more "loopholes for
the wealthy. Their child has to fight just like mine. Wars
would be a thing of the past, unless we truly had to defend
ourselves.
Did you know that during the "revolutionary war", if
you paid $300.00, then you were exempt from duty? That shows
you that the wealthy have been "skating" since our
nation began.

[dgibby]

135. Best way in the world to end the wars!

Also, the reason they won't reinstate the draft. They don't want a repeat of the '60's. Until everyone has a stake in these wars, they will never end, and until they reinstate the draft, everyone won't have a stake in these wars.

[pokercat999]

172. Why do you want a military occupied by children?

"When the children (no National Guard deferments) of the wealthy and elite must serve"

With the vast improvement in weaponry combined with the much improved condition and health of our citizens 55 and older why not have adults as military members. Start the draft at 60 and work down until the ranks are filled. I'm 58 so I'm not advocating something that would not affect me personally.

I know, it sounds crazy doesn't it? Why, why does it sound so absurd? Because those over 55 wouldn't take the bullshit the young take. When ordered to invade an innocent country or kill innocent civilians they would revolt. Fragging incidents would be rampant and might even occur in peaceful areas and even at bases inside the US. Unlawful orders would be met with total resistance and lawful but stupid orders with ridicule.

No, our military planners are correct, we need children to do our fighting maybe we should start the draft at 12 or 10, get em young and stupid.

[dotymed]

228. POKERCAT, I AGREE

And I don't want to see ANYONE in a war. Honestly they want
young people( we are all someones children)because they can
control their minds much easier. Also, young people are more
physically adaptable to different situations. I did not post
in favor of anyone going to war. I am saying that if the
children of the wealthy/elite/politicians etc.. were legally
mandated to participate in a war, if America decides that
"war is our only option", then "they"
would not decide that "war is the only option." We
would have to write the "draft resolution" to make
it clear that there are no deferments and that ALL soldiers
must rotate to "the front lines."

[Enthusiast]

102. I really like the way you think.

When you say "If we don't have an army capable of fighting a war, we should be starting unnecessary wars." I believe you mean to say "If we don't have an army capable of fighting a war, we <shouldn't> be starting unnecessary wars."

[sabrina 1]

149. Yes, I did mean 'shouldn't', thanks for the correction.

[Cherchez la Femme]

140. The U.S. created the Viet Cong, we created the Taliban

(and so many more foreign groups)
only to spend way too much in blood and treasure to combat those 'lil changeling children of ours down the road.

Gee, it almost seems deliberate.

Not to mention all the governments we've taken over with many of the former leaders murdered.
If you have the stomach for it, see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5949265


All this via the CIA -- a governmental group that should be dismantled,
then apologies issued not only to the American people but to the world.

[sabrina 1]

199. Good OP in your link ~

I think the problem is Americans in general haven't come to grips with the fact that this country is no longer a Democracy. It IS an Empire, and Empires do not act like democracies. How this happened, I don't know, but most likely it happened out of fear, starting with the Cold War. That worked so well, people were willing to back up every coup, every violation of the civil rights of citizens of other nations, turn a blind to torture etc. just to feel safe, that it has only increased, this destruction of what America was aspiring to be.

I admit, I had not realized it either, and was hoping despite all the evidence that presidents probably have little power anymore, that with Democrats in control things could change.

For many people, what happens with Dems controlling all three branches of government, will be the test. If nothing changes (other a few crumbs being thrown our way) on the major issues, many will have to accept that we do not live in Democracy and to expect that the people have any influence at all throught the democratic process, is just foolish.

I don't know what we can do about it after that acceptance takes place. Maybe wait to be rescued as other nations have had to do. No one gets to be president if s/he looks like a threat to the status quo, that much I have now come to believe. As a result, I no longer feel disappointed when they act differently than we had hoped. But I do not know how to change it.

[virgogal]

3. The more things change------etc.,etc.,etc.

[latebloomer]

5. Bush policies repeating themselves

yet, and yet, and yet again.

[Emit]

8. As I understand it, DynCorp International was supposed to take over tomorrow but wasn't ready

they needed more time to get more equipment on the ground in Iraq

Now, who DynCorp International is, I have no clue, but that's what I read

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. Well, I'm not sure if DynCorp openly commits mass murder in the name of religious fundagelicalism

the way that EriKKK Prince does. But they are certainly fucking thieves and swindlers, at best.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/11/AR2009081103461.html

[Horse with no Name]

40. Dyncorp is another maggot-infested group

http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/031505_mckinney_transcr...

Transcript of Representative Cynthia McKinney's Exchange with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers, and Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) Tina Jonas, March 11th, 2005

Sec. of Defense Rumsfeld in House Hearing on FY06 Dept. of Defense Budget
Chairman Representative Duncan Hunter (R-CA) and witnesses Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and JCS Chairman General Richard Myers hold a House Hearing on the FY 2006 Budget for the Department of Defense and Military Services.
3/11/2005: WASHINGTON, DC: 2 hr. 5 min.

CMK: Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney (D-GA)
DR: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
RM: Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers
TJ: Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) Tina Jonas
DH: Chairman Representative Duncan Hunter (R-CA)

25:20
CMK: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I watched President Bush deliver a moving speech at the United Nations in September 2003, in which he mentioned the crisis of the sex trade. The President called for the punishment of those involved in this horrible business. But at the very moment of that speech, DynCorp was exposed for having been involved in the buying and selling of young women and children. While all of this was going on, DynCorp kept the Pentagon contract to administer the smallpox and anthrax vaccines, and is now working on a plague vaccine through the Joint Vaccine Acquisition Program. Mr. Secretary, is it policy of the U.S. Government to reward companies that traffic in women and little girls?

That's my first question. My second question, Mr. Secretary: according to the Comptroller General of the United States, there are serious financial management problems at the Pentagon, to which Mr. Cooper alluded.

Fiscal Year 1999: $2.3 trillion missing.

Fiscal Year 2000, $1.1 trillion missing.

And DoD is the number one reason why the government can't balance its checkbook. The Pentagon has claimed year after year that the reason it can't account for the money is because its computers don't communicate with each other.

My second question, Mr. Secretary, is who has the contracts today, to make those systems communicate with each other? How long have they had those contracts, and how much have the taxpayers paid for them?

Finally Mr. Secretary, after the last Hearing, I thought that my office was promised a written response to my question regarding the four wargames on September 11th. I have not yet received that response, but would like for you to respond to the questions that I've put to you today. And then I do expect the written response to my previous question - hopefully by the end of the week.

<snip>

[inna]

64. no wonder Cynthia got blacklisted, and even some centrist Democrats believed the blacklisters.

thanks for the link.

[dotymed]

79. WE NEED CYNTHIA McKINNEY BACK IN CONGRESS

She was definitely one of the few Congresspeople that actually
had the best interests of Americans at heart. I realize that
she lost some credibility, with her failed Presidential run
with the Hip Hop spokesperson. Cynthia did her homework and
asked the right questions. The questions that made the
powerful people nervous. What a great American she is. I hope
she (at least) runs for Congress again.

[pokercat999]

231. Most likely Ms. McKinney's STAFF did their homework, but

she had the guts to ask the questions. You are correct in that we need her and more people like her.

[berni_mccoy]

9. Extended by 3 months until the replacement company can handle the job that needs doing today.

And as far as the number of contractors outnumbering the troops, these are support personnel who are the majority Afghanis. Isn't that a good thing? That the Afghanis are economically benefiting from our presence there? Obama didn't put them there you know.

[armyowalgreens]

11. Oh so we can replace one under-regulated private contractor with another..

Sweet. Maybe this one won't murder civilians. I guess all we can do is cross our fingers and hope for the best.


And, no, the majority of contractors are not Afghani. A good amount are. We still have private contractors acting as soldiers.

Obama is increasing troop presence and will inevitably increase contractor presence.

[Sebastian Doyle]

29. The "only job that needs doing today"

...is for every last American to GET THE FUCK OUT of Iraq AND Afghanistan. :grr:

[MissDeeds]

84. +1

As I recall, we were all mad as hell that Bush got us into Iraq and Afghanistan. We're still there, under this new "change" administration. Outrage anyone?

[bobshin]

123. +1

Unless you take into consideration the ignorant poster above who believes we should be in Afghanistan to find some elusive fictional character named Bin Laden. No matter what he's done or is capable of he was funded by the US government. At the expense of what, more innocent lives and billions of dollars more of our non-existent budget?

[here_is_to_hope]

93. +2! eom

[dflprincess]

42. I have a suspicion

That the Afghanis aren't the only ones benefiting economically from our presence there. I'll bet their not even the ones benefiting the most. :sarcasm:

I'd sure like to hear Obama announce that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have to be "deficit neutral". Maybe we could afford Medicare for all then.

[armyowalgreens]

44. They are feeding the corporate greed. They don't give a shit about us.

[gtar100]

71. To the extent that we pay taxes to pay for their ventures,

that's the extent they give a shit about us.

All these wars, all these bullets and bombs, all these delivery systems and playgrounds for all these soldiers, are bought and paid for with our money by a small number of people who ignore our welfare.

[Individualist]

143. DLC loves the military industrial complex

[QC]

10. "it's only been 7 months"

Apparently today's preferred talking point is the one about turning around an aircraft carrier.

Please update your records.

Thank you.

[Generator]

12. Obama is a place holder

But a damn better one than Bush. So that makes everything he does oaky. I just summed up the Democratic Underground philosophy! BWahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Pangolin2]

17. Better oaky than mapley any day.

:rofl:

[stray cat]

13. Volunteer for the armed forces or lets reintroduce the draft

we could certainly no longer employ contractors....We seem to be a little shorthanded with people serving 4 or more tours at present. If you really object - enlist and do the job yourself.

[armyowalgreens]

15. No. I will not enlist and fight in an immoral conflict. We should be bring them home.

[stray cat]

18. Is there any conflict you would ever fight for or are all conflicts immoral?

[armyowalgreens]

20. Not all conflicts are immoral...

And yes, I would enlist if our country was being threatened. I don't know how good I would be at fighting, but I would try my best.

[Autonomy]

62. You don't consider the Taliban a threat?

We can thank Bush for taking his eye off the ball after 9/11, going into Iraq while the Taliban were merely hiding out, but that doesn't leave Obama off the hook for finishing what Bush ignored.

There's no statute of limitations on the murder of 3000 people. The threat of 9/11 is, and always has been, still alive and still well enough to cause massive catastrophe if left to their own devices.

[armyowalgreens]

67. They threaten us because we keep on forcing our own interests into the middle east...

The more we try to fight them, the stronger and more hateful they will become.

[Enthusiast]

105. In addition to that

the Taliban is NOT Al-Qaeda.

[Autonomy]

119. They knowingly allowed al Qaeda

to train to kill civilians and gave them refuge in their country. They are accessory to murder, and thereby guilty of murder.

[armyowalgreens]

235. Being an accessory and being the murderer are two completely different things.

Of course, you clearly only see things in black and white.

[Autonomy]

118. So you admit they are threatening us...

I guess you are on your way to enlist right now, not being a liar or hypocrite.

[armyowalgreens]

234. They threaten us because we threaten them. Feel free to poke the hive with a stick on your own time.

I'll gladly stay the hell away.

No I am not going to enlist.

[armyowalgreens]

68. On top of that, we are there bombing the hell out of civilian infrastructure...

"by accident".

I refuse to support a conflict that involves total war. Sorry. So please don't try and guilt trip me.

[Bluenorthwest]

92. The Taliban is an Afghani Nationalist outfit. They did not do 9-11

and they do not have their sights on the US. Fighting the wrong people in the wrong place is the definition of a stupid war. We were hit on 9-11 by Saudis. Let's see all that redacted information about the Kingdom's involvement before we continue down this amoral path even one more yard.
9-11 was done by Saudis. So let's hire thugs to kill Afghanis. This is what Bush did, were you in support of him and his mercenaries and the redaction of the truth back then, or just now?

[Autonomy]

121. al Qaeda was kick out of Saudi Arabia

and given refuge in Afghanistan by the Taliban.

[JanMichael]

222. Bull shit. They are still there you idiot. nt.

[bobshin]

124. That's right. That's why we've murdered over 1.3million innocent people

in Iraq- give or take a few. 433 eyes for an eye. The "threat of 9/11" is a fallacy. It's a red herring. I know, I know, it's tough to get past My Pet Goat.

[Autonomy]

144. Why are you talking about Iraq?

I didn't march against that war in the freezing cold to be accused of supporting the Iraq fiasco.

[AtheistCrusader]

171. No, Iraq was an unrelated distraction. A war of convienience. Little shrub finishing daddy's war.

It took our eye and our resources off Afghanistan. No, the Taliban didn't commit the attacks on 9/11 but they harbored the people who did.

If the Iraq War had never happened, we'd probably be just about done in Afghanistan by now.

But no, we moved manpower and equipment elsewhere for a different sort of war. We've built the Afghani government a security force/miltiary they cannot hope to afford to maintain. We've done nothing to help them find an economic base besides heroin. I believe we are spending much more in aid to rebuild Iraq.


We fucked up. We should be working hand in hand with the UN on Afghanistan. We should never have invaded Iraq. Hell, Russia is offering to help in Afghanistan now. Lets build some relations with Russia and take that offered hand.

[DutchLiberal]

129. But what is the end to the war? Having killed them all?

Well, we're never going to kill them all. For every fallen fighter, they'll recruit a new one. In the meantime, more Afghani civilians and American/British/Dutch soldiers get killed. Remember that even the Red Army couldn't get the Mujahideen on their knees in ten years.

[Autonomy]

145. That's a legitimate question

but does not justify inaction against those who perpetrated a terrorist attack against us (innocent civilians). The solution may be a simultaneous application of hard and soft power in Afghanistan. Afghani civilians, Americans, and Europeans were already dying at the hands of this fanatical fundamentalist sect, so doing nothing will not prevent that from continuing.

[DutchLiberal]

180. How many in the Middle East have died, direct or indirect, from US involvement?

At least a tenfold of the number of Americans/Europeans that have died from the hands of Al Qu'aida.

I mean, if you count all the victims of all the Middle Eastern dictators that the US and Europe have installed and supported in the Middle East, all the victims that have fell from Israeli repression that's supported by the US and Europe, and all the victims from the wars we have fought over there...

From the posts you make and the tone of them, I infer (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you're a "they hate us for our freedom" kind of person. Maybe if we would just leave them the heck alone, they would do the same.

And you didn't answer my question: what is the end of the war? We can't stay there forever. It would bankrupt us (as it did with the Soviet Union).

[Autonomy]

230. Now I have to argue with your straw man?

I'm not a "they hate us for our freedom person". They hate us because they hate, as do all fanatics. Allowing fanatics who've proved the willingness to support a terrorist faction of their extremist ideology is beyond unacceptable; it's willing self-destruction, and I will not be party to it.

[DutchLiberal]

237. You're the one using strawmen like "they hate us because they hate".

It's not a rational position and it's reminiscent of the Bush-days.

You sure are trying to come off as a tough guy, with your "I will not be a party to it". If you feel that way, you go enlist and fight in Afghanistan. And continue to conveniently ignore my question: when will this war *ever* end?

[Autonomy]

239. You're way off base

A straw man is restating what someone says and arguing against that instead of what they actually said, such as "you seem like a 'they hate us for our freedoms person', therefore..."

"They hate us because they hate" is not meant to be "a rational position"; quite the opposite, it is an insight into the fanatical mindset.

I am far from "trying to come off as a tough guy", and I never said a) I would or would not enlist, b) that I am not currently or formerly enlisted, c) in any way eligible to enlist

"When will this war *ever* end?" Is this an actual question? Or a leading "question" meant as a statement?

I don't know when this war will *ever* end. My crystal ball is in for repairs. Is it necessary to be able to prognosticate to have this discussion? NO.

Last, you sound like a kid. I think I'll not be wasting anymore time with you.

[DutchLiberal]

244. Projection, much?

"Last, you sound like a kid. I think I'll not be wasting anymore time with you."

:rofl:

Coming from the man with the brilliant argument: "they hate us because they hate". Nice, simple black-and-white Bush-like worldview you've got there, buddy.

So you don't know how to end the war, but you're willing to commit other people's lives to it? That's neat. I would walk away from the discussion too, if I were you. I would be ashamed of myself, too.

[sabrina 1]

153. No, I don't consider the Taliban a threat to the US.

And there is no statute of limitations on the murder of over one million Iraqis either. Looks like now, they have the advantage in that argument. And we are killing with drones, innocent Afghanis every day, children and women who have done nothing to deserve the horrible deaths we are inflicting on them.

Are you seriously supporting this oil profit-driven slaughter around the globe in countries that have resources, or the means to get to those resources (Afghanistan) that we want?

And you are arguing against yourself. Because after nearly ten years of war in two countries, you say the 'threat is still alive' and could cause massive catastrophe if left to their own devices'. True, not only does the threat still exist, it has increased. So if that WAS the reason for these wars, the result is total failure. What makes you think any of this was ever about reducing that threat?

The threat has INCREASED since we started killing Muslims and Arabs and stealing their resources. The level of terror attacks around the globe increased so much since we began this ill-fated crusade, that the Bush administration tried to hide the numbers. Because the truth is, none of this is about 'terror' reduction. You are assuming they, the people who let a US city drown, care about you.

These wars have zero to do with your safety. They have to do with US dominance of the world's resources and if that means a few terror attacks on US soil, the war-profiteers are fine with that.

Sad to see Democrats falling for the propaganda really, not criticizing you, just sad to see how easy it is for them to 'bring the people along' even when they really do not want war.

[Autonomy]

160. I'm not criticizing you, either

but you've taken your eye off the ball, so to speak, which is obvious when you cite a statistic on Iraq casualties. You may be cynical about the motives, and if you cited LIHOP I would agree with you, but that does not change the fact that the fanatical religionist sect in Afghanistan will not stop attacking non-Sunni Muslim countries by merely being left alone.

Iraq was simple; it did not present a threat to the US. Afghanistan is equally simple; the Taliban PROVED it is a threat to the US.

[sabrina 1]

189. I'm sorry, we'll have to disagree.

The only threat the Taliban posed to the US was when they refused to grant permission to Unocal Oil Co. to build a pipeline in Afghanistan. The summer before 9/11. It was well known to US officials and just about everyone else, that Osama Bin Ladin was in Afghanistan and that he was most likely responsible for several attacks on US interets, including possible the Cole. Yet, even with that knowledge, the US entertained top officials of the Taliban in the summer of 2001, right here in the US in an attempt to get permission for their oil pipeline.

They were clearly not seen as a threat nor were they. They were viewed as future business partners, but they refused the deal and once that happened, the war in Afghanistan was already planned. Before 9/11. I could link to proof of this, but it's not hard to find.

We did NOT go to Afghanistan to get OBL or because the Taliban were terrorists. They were not. But you could say they were foolish not to give the US what they wanted. 9/11 or no 9/11 had the Taliban agreed to a pipe-line, regardless of the presence of OBL in their country, the US would never have invaded that country.

What they may have been doing regarding other countries, I have little evidence that the Taliban was engaged in aggressive behavior towards anyone other than the war lords in Afghanistan. Pakistan was a supporter of the Taliban and what they wanted more than anything else, was to be accepted into the world community.

Too bad they thought they could decide whether or not an oil pipeline was a good idea for their country. They underestimated what the US was prepared to do to get to the world's last oil reservoirs. It is a race, between the US, Russia, China and Europe, and Afghanistan was a strategic part of that race.

None of it had anything to do with 9/11, that was just the excuse, as it was for Iraq.

[DutchLiberal]

183. I wish I could recommend your post!

Outstanding reply!

[sabrina 1]

223. Very nice of you to say, thank you!

[ThomCat]

191. Are you really that ignorant?

The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11. They were Saudis.

The justification for going to war with the Taliban was because they were hiding Bin Laden, but if that's a necessary reason for going to war then why aren't we also at war with Pakistan?

Diplomacy and international police actions could have handled Al Qaida much more effectively than this disaster of a War on Terror. Clinton proved that when he brought the people who bombed the towers the FIRST TIME to justice. Bush fucked up big time because he was addicted to war. It sounds like you are too.

I was here on 9/11, saw the smoke erupt from the first hit and saw the second plane hit with my own eyes. I knew people who died in the towers. I know survivors from the towers. I still live here and deal with the daily security changes all over this city since 9/11. I hate it when people who don't know shit try to use 9/11 as a justification for nutty ideas.

[Autonomy]

229. The Taliban had everything to do with 9/11

It's fact. They are as equally guilty as al Qaeda.

[ThomCat]

238. Only if you're delusional.

:eyes:

[Donnachaidh]

23. why? There's plenty of information about how the soldiers are training contractors

to do the job they are supposed to be doing.

[Sebastian Doyle]

31. Here's a better idea: Let's just STOP INVADING OTHER FUCKING COUNTRIES FOR NO GOOD GODDAMN REASON.

Another good idea: No mercenary armies ever again. At all. For any reason. Every last one of them should be prosecuted for war crimes and treason.



Oh and by the way, why do you always take the Republican side of EVERY argument? Perhaps you should change your name to "Stray Elephant"

[QC]

37. What a bold idea! Young man, I like the way you think. n/t

[inna]

66. +1

:spray:

[Subdivisions]

112. Watch out! The "fuck" police are on patrol. n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

132. In the words of some guys from Compton......

....Fuck tha fuck police!! :evilgrin:

[Jim Sagle]

147. Bring da fuck.

[DutchLiberal]

128. Or ship the 500,000 troops that are located in Europe and Latin-America to the Middle-East..

I mean, why does the US need hundreds of troops in, say, Germany?

[hack89]

137. You are off by 450,000 or so.

US troop levels in Europe have been slashed 70 percent since 2004 and are presently at 40,000.

We do not have large numbers of troops in Latin America - Colombia for example caps US troop strength at less than a 1000. None are permanently based there.

[DutchLiberal]

179. There are 500,000 US troops stationed in Europe, Latin-America, Asia, Africa...

All over the world.

[hack89]

221. Since the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are in that 500,000

I'm not sure what your point is.

We have 40K in Europe. We have about the same each in Korea and Japan.

We have no permanent bases in Latin-America with a handful of troops operating there. We have no permanent bases in Africa with a handful of troops operating there.

There are not 500K troops overseas that we can send to Afghanistan.

[DutchLiberal]

236. No bases in Latin-America? What about Columbia?

And what about the one in Honduras, the one that Zelaya wanted to close down and then "suddenly" got removed from office?

Yes, I included Afghanistan and Iraq in that number, my bad. My point was and is (and I think you understood it just the same), that, if you want to wage a war in Afghanistan and you need more troops, there are places to get them. I don't see why they have to be in Europe. It's not like Portugal is going to invade Euro Disney...

[hack89]

240. Those troops in Europe routinely deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan

They are simply based there - if we can deploy troops from America then we can deploy them from Europe. The Army has a set rotation - for every brigade in Iraq and Afghanistan there is one that just got back and is resting and a second that is training to replace them.

Those bases in Honduras and Colombia belong to those countries - the US was granted landing rights for anti-drug operations. We fly a handful of surveillance planes from them and rotate maintenance and logistic troops in for short deployments. Force levels are capped by Columbia and Honduras at about 800 each. There are no Army or Marine combat units based there. There are Special Forces training team in Columbia but they are very small.

[Pangolin2]

14. It kinda -seems- like somebody's pro quo has a quid on it.

:shrug:

[bvar22]

16. K & R...back up to +5

[placton]

19. You DARE criticicize Mr. Obama? (sarcasm) n/t

[ixion]

22. Funny... I voted for CHANGE

but, you know, I've seen little to nothing actually change. I've heard talk, but seen no real action. :grr:

[armyowalgreens]

24. Obama has done a lot of little things. And he deserves credit for it...

But he is also doing plenty of bad things.

[ixion]

25. I said 'little'

but the things that really matter have not changed, and that is a critical flaw, IMO.

[armyowalgreens]

28. Absolutely. They throw us a bone to keep us quite...

But nothing of substance has been accomplished.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

30. You got that right -

and your outrage is perfectly justified. What is happening is simply a logistical detail - the new company, whoever they are, is unprepared to take over right now.

Makes you wonder how prepared they'll be in three months.

Me, I'm old-fashioned - the idea of a "war" with a Burger King and a McDonald's and all sorts of private employees doing the jobs that military personnel were previously trained to do is just insane. That's why we should have a draft, because that's how it's supposed to be.

This is no "war" - it's a corporate event, except people get slaughtered. But, in the meantime, think of the JOBS it's creating!

You did good with this one, my friend, and ignore those dickheads who try to bait you. You did really well here.........................

[armyowalgreens]

32. With a draft, I think our last conflict would have been Vietnam...

The citizens have no way of holding the military accountable.

I'm prime draft age. If I got a letter from uncle sam telling me to go fight in Afghanistan, I'd tell him to shove it up his ass. And I'm sure many others would join me.

But with no draft and the addition of private contractors, they can do whatever the hell they want. You are absolutely right. War has been turned into a corporate affair.

But what frightens me is that the government has found a way to have "absolute war"...

"The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact."- Orwell

Add an element of fascism, and we have our current situation. It sickens me.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

36. You got it all right -

and if there were a draft and you were called up, I'd do all I could to help you find your way to Canada. My friends with draft-age children and I have talked this over - we have it all ready and waiting, just in case. You'd become part of our group in an instant, and you'd be kept safe.

Orwell was right, and what we're seeing is disheartening and disgusting. "Change we can believe in" did not translate into "escalate in Afghanistan" for me.

I hate to think we've been had, and if Obama doesn't do something dramatic with this health care business, and tell Congress to suck it, I'll have no choice but to give up hope.

And that idea breaks my heart into more pieces than can be counted......................................

[armyowalgreens]

38. hmmm I guess Canada wouldn't be that bad...

I appreciate the consideration. Although I don't think you have to worry about me since I'm currently in college and will be for a while.

All we can do is keep pushing Obama and all the other politicians to do the right thing. If it doesn't work, we protest and vote them out.

[Why Syzygy]

95. Can I come too?

I'm an old hippie lady. Not going to draft me. Probably.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

163. Absolutely!

We'll show the youngsters how to do it............

:toast:

[Ghost Dog]

78. The deliberate impoverishment of large numbers of young people

in your country (not to mention the lack of enlightened/enlightening education) is your military's primary recruiting ground.

[Cherchez la Femme]

154. self delete Posted in the wrong place

[blueknight]

33. words cant describe

how disappointed i am in this administration. i worked my ass off ( AS IM SURE MANY OF YOU DID ALSO) walking door to door in a very red part of ky to get CHANGE. some fucking change. im getting older now, so im sure i will just sit the next one out. if you dont get the change you were promised, whats the fucking point:shrug: :shrug:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

35. I know -

the idea of escalation in Afghanistan took the breath out of me when I heard it. I really could not believe it.

Obama is disappointing me in many ways, and this has absolutely nothing to do with having been in office for such a relatively short time. I have backed him on so many things, even as I held my breath, hoping he'd do the right thing.

He's made some good moves, but the passivity and willingness to make his administration into the ninth year of Fuckface's tenure mystifies me.

And it saddens me.

He'd better go all ass-out on this health care business. I'd like him to go before Congress and tell them that his deal is single payer Medicare coverage for all. People can pay into it and join, people of all ages, or they can keep their own present coverage.

But, he'd better tell them, that's what he wants. It's what AMERICANS want.

Then, he better get back on the campaign trail and start selling this, mobilizing his people - like us - who worked so hard to get him elected, because we wanted CHANGE, and he promised it, and get us all out there to make sure every American knows that this is the best that can be done for them.

Why have this amazing organization if you're not going to utilize us?

I'm not optimistic, my friend...................................

[Why Syzygy]

97. Only seven months..

but, sorry folks. It only took him a couple of days to name Rahm, and I saw the bloody handwriting right then and there. Not that I told you so ... I was silent.

[TankLV]

115. He certainly has - He has CUTE CHILDREN in the White House now...

and a Cute Doggy!

And that Victory Garden!!!

boy - they're certainly all IMPORTANT things!!!






Too bad on the THINGS THAT MATTER - he's literally CONTINUING BUSH POLICIES!!!

[DutchLiberal]

130. No, you voted for Obama. If you wanted change, you should've picked a different candidate...

If you paid attention during the primaries, you would have known this.

[ixion]

159. okay, I guess I needed to use the 'sarcasm' icon

actually, Kucinich was the candidate I supported. I didn't really expect much to change with Obama, and I've been sadly proven correct there.

[DutchLiberal]

181. You weren't being sarcastic. You were sincere in your anger.

There's no shame in admitting that. No need to try to hide it now.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Well, we wouldn't want to waste all the money spent on a lost war on anything useful.

Better to subsidize a "for profit" growth industry that produces nothing of value.

[lonestarnot]

45. Don't you mean she?

[armyowalgreens]

47. What?

[lonestarnot]

242. Xe she

[Odin2005]

46. Reliance on mercenaries kills democracies.

Many of the city-state democracies of Late Medieval Italy fell victim to coups by the mercenaries they hired. That's how the Sforzas of Milan got their start.

[QC]

48. Just like Hengest and Horsa. n/t

[Kaleva]

50. We are a republic and not a democracy

[armyowalgreens]

51. Huh? We carry elements of both.

[Kaleva]

54. It's late and I should have put a smiley in my post

[Why Syzygy]

99. A "democracy"

is a pitchfork mob. We WERE a Democratic Republic of individuals who elected representatives. The People give their power to the states, who then make agreements with the federals. Except, I think Bush changed the law and now the states have no right to question DC. :shrug: They took our Republic and left us with a pitchfork mob. Only we don't understand that it is now time to bring our own pitchforks.

[QC]

52. What does that have to do with the dangers of mercenaries? n/t

[Kaleva]

58. I don't think your example applies to the current situation

The Italian city states relied almost exclusively on mercenaries to do their dirty work. Companies like Blackwater have no chance against the U.S Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force, National Guard, Coast Guard, FBI, Secret Service, BATFE and state and local police forces.

The mercs hired by the Italian city-states, being only interested in making money and having no interest in dying, had a peculiar way of fighting and thus casualties were quite low. When facing an invading force from outside of Italy, the mercs didn't hold up.

[Odin2005]

89. We are both.

[defendandprotect]

49. Agree . . . what are we all doing about it ??????????????????

Same with defense contractors over the years -- GE, for one -- who defrauded the

government on contracts . . . allowed back in. No penalty, just fines!

Same with Medicare/Medicaid -- EVERY PHARMACEUTICAL company has been involved in

defrauding the government . . . yet, they're allowed to continue to do business

without any penalty!!! They pay fines, sometimes now big fines. But that's it!!!

Much of the health care industry has been involved in fraud vs Medicare/Medicaid!


Of course, none of these companies/CEOs have been accused of murder as Blackwater/

Prince have been -- at least not yet!!!

[Why Syzygy]

101. And the insurance champions

claim they have no way to sort it out and refund Medicare for the monies they STOLE!
OH WELL! Keep it then! If you can't sort it out ... :nuke:
And, while you're at it, take our reform.

Gaw. With an easy pigeon like that, I wonder why they aren't anxious to turn the whole lot over to the government. Just one bill to process.

[defendandprotect]

224. Rep. Bernie Sanders has been good on making the thefts clear . . .

but we need many more talking about this and changing things -- !!!

:)

[FarLeftFist]

53. I WOULD IMAGINE....

IT WOULD BE HARD TO FIND A PRIVATE MILITIA GROUP OPERATING WITHOUT A HIDDEN AGENDA AND UNDER THE BEST MORAL CONDITIONS. I MEAN YOU DON'T ACTUALLY START A MILITIA GROUP WITHOUT SOME FORM OF EXTREMISM IN YOUR BLOOD. IT'S NOT EXACTLY GOOD BUSINESS WITHOUT THE NECESSARY CONTRACTS.

[armyowalgreens]

55. Whoa...please turn caps lock off.

Thank you.

[maxpower]

60. I worked my ass off to get him elected

Why the fuck does he fell he has to move to the middle, when the left elected him. Fuck the bluedogs and tghe thugs, he has majorities in both houses. Just get it done. Rant off.

[armyowalgreens]

61. He's not shifting down the political spectrum. He's giving into corporate interests.

Obama was never really that far left to begin with. Now I don't know where he is.

[maxpower]

63. Good point

But that is politics right?

[defendandprotect]

65. k i c k

[autorank]

70. Note that despite a civil case where murder is alleged, there isn't even

an announced federal investigation of the alleged murderer(s), i.e., Blackwater execs.

No investigation, just multimillion contracts.

The first day of vacation golfing date with the president of USB shows the utter indifference to
public opinion and probity.

[earth mom]

72. Can't believe we agree on something. So I will rec this thread. nt

[Radar62]

73. Privitize the military???

Maybe that's a good idea?? I mean if one has to go fight the war, they may as well get better pay. :sarcasm:

[leftrightwingnut]

74. It is a temporary extension not more than 6 months. Dyncorp isn't ready to take over.

It may be just a logistical snafu. Repugnant yes, but perhaps not something to get so excited about.

Three officials said the contract with Presidential Airways to provide air support for U.S. diplomats was temporarily extended because the firm chosen to replace it is not yet ready to take over. The contract was due to expire on Sept. 3 and be taken over a day later by Dyncorp International.

There is a replacement lined up -- it just isn't ready. Don't know the particulars but it probably involves skilled pilots and airplanes and might be impossible to find yet another replacement on short notice.

We're also talking about a subsidiary of Xe that's being extended. Perhaps the subsidiary is not as ideologically driven?

And the Iraqi government would have to approve the extension, no?

[armyowalgreens]

75. We are providing an extension to a company that murders civilians...

I don't care what excuse they give us, this is complete bullshit.

[Echo In Light]

81. +1

[tekisui]

87. DynCorp is still a contractor raking in billions

while further privatizing military duties. Also, IIRC the head of DynCorp recently came over from KBR or Haliburton. I'll see if I can dig up the details.

[tekisui]

88. More on DynCorp:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/tekisui/469

I can't find the story on the leadership change, yet.

[scentopine]

82. corporate run proxy government - treasury grab bag...

Corporations see our tax dollars hanging from the money tree like a colorful pinata.

And just like out sourcing to Asia, the quality sucks, but they try to make up for it in quantity.

When the economy is bad, Democrats have no problem exploiting people in war who few other options.

There was little democratic outrage about torture and blackwater. That's because we are all republican now.

They are winning folks because we won't get off our asses and march in unison and protest in unison and stop voting and spendinbgg in unison.

Just like the republicans do. That unison gives them the strength that we do not have.

[Triana]

83. Change you can believe in NOT seeing? Pffft. n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

86. But, but, but....its only been 8 months....

Makes me so fucking mad:mad: :mad:

[MissDeeds]

90. Me too

Looks like even the apologists are having trouble spinning this one.

[mcollier]

91. Welcome to the way the world is

it takes time to change the way the world is to what you want it to be...

A bit more patience???

[Bluenorthwest]

100. Be specific, please

Exactly how long are you willing to pay for hired killers with your tax money? Would you pay the mafia for a year? The Crips for a season?
How much patience do you wish to extend to criminals? How does retaining these crooks help change happen? What is gained for this immoral and vile act?
How long are you willing to pay murderers to murder, for simple convenience? Be specific, detailed, comprehensive. This is a serious issue. What does 'a bit more' mean? Is the 'more' counted in time or in corpses? Be specific.
Is there any action so vile that you would not pay Blackwater to continue once they did that? Or is anything they do on your dime fine and dandy, for a limited time? If they rape more kids and hold more sex parties, are you on board for that too? For how long? How many child rapes are dandy with you and your dear mercenaries? Is there a limit to what you will pay for, or do you actually enjoy knowing that you are paying for the lowest of actions, the most heinous of crimes? Is it a thrill for you, or a burden.
Tell us everything, in detail. Welcome to the way the world is, you make statements, you are expected to define them and defend them. You say extend more time and money to Blackwater. So tell us how much, how long, and if you have any problems at all with the vile things they do. Arms smuggling into the US, for example. Ready. Begin.

[kath]

94. Wow - this is supposed to be "change you can believe in"???

:banghead: :banghead:

[Bluenorthwest]

96. Sick of being lectured about Christian dogma by those who hire killers

Tired to the last nerve of hearing these hypocrites spew their false and affected faith all over the civil rights of my family, while they pay murderers and arms smugglers to carry out their bloody agenda, with no eye for truth or justice. Vile amoral actions done while pointing fingers at good families and stating that God does not approve of them.

[QC]

110. Apparently God is not in the mix when one is hiring assassins and thugs.

Strange morality, isn't it?

[Jennicut]

104. I like Obama but its time to end the military contractors..its just wrong.

And its time to get out of Afghanistan. There is a debate in the administration about sending more troops or not. I think Obama needs to listen to the group that wants us to pare this down and get out...its a quagmire and will bog us down for years like Vietnam.
I usually support Obama too but this goes too far for me.

[BREMPRO]

108. +1

[jma10131]

106. WTF?!?

yeah, what the fuck? that's wrong on so many levels!

[BREMPRO]

109. Read the second sentence of the article, more to the story:

"Three officials said the contract with Presidential Airways to provide air support for U.S. diplomats was temporarily extended because the firm chosen to replace it is not yet ready to take over. The contract was due to expire on Sept. 3 and be taken over a day later by Dyncorp International."

We all hate blackwater/XE, but this is sensible to make sure there is a smooth transition to the new security. DUers please and understand what is going on before jumping to conclusions

That said, i'm still not comfortable with the outsourcing of security to another private company- The inherent higher costs, and unaccountability- especially given the recent reports of "lord of the flies like hazing" activities of security contractors in Afghanistan. The problem is that we don't have enough troops and no-one is talking about a draft or a de-escalation of our involvements overseas.

[ptownbro]

111. This is very disappointing

This is adding more evidence that maybe ... just maybe ... Obama isn't playing chess. Maybe ... just maybe ... you can take his actions at face value for what they really are.

[TankLV]

113. But Obama's CHILDREN are sooo CUTE - and he SMILES a lot!!!

What's WRONG with you!!!

Did I mention he's repainted all the White House Bedrooms?!!!

I mean, he's ACCOMPLISHED so much (window dressing)...!!!

[L0oniX]

114. Rec'n to undo the moran unrec'rs.

[ensho]

116. agree, what's up with Obama? blackwater is criminal

I don't want my tax dollars paying them for more crimes

[redqueen]

120. Yeah... I wish I could say I was surprised.

The motherfuckers pulling the MIC strings are evil, and very, very powerful.

I expect change on that front to be even more glacially slow than such fundamental change usally is, which takes generations.

[Yavin4]

122. If You Actually Read The Article, Instead of Flying Off The Handle

You'd would see this:

Three officials said the contract with Presidential Airways to provide air support for U.S. diplomats was temporarily extended because the firm chosen to replace it is not yet ready to take over. The contract was due to expire on Sept. 3 and be taken over a day later by Dyncorp International.

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

142. Didn't see your post...

but that is the same thing I said once I actually read the article. All these post talking all this nonsense because people fail to comprehend reading fundamentals.

[armyowalgreens]

174. If you bothered to read any other part of this thread...

You would know that there is no excuse for the extension. Blackwater is full of murderers.

[Deep13]

125. There's the reason...

...to maintain the pretense of a volunteer army, Obama needs the mercenaries to have sufficient numbers to do the job.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

131. and the US doesn't use any torture now either

:eyes:

that's left up to contractors too. Or some other outsourcing. Or it's a goddamn lie.

They really believe they won't lose the base when they accept a half assed approach to changing healthcare. :eyes:

Chuck Todd has it all figured out for them and political expediency. Just get it done before the end of the year and focus

on some other bipartisan (republican agenda) "Change". 2010 is right around the corner.

I want my vote back and my $$$ to the Hope&Change Administration.


And where is Hillary on this Blackwater/Contractor use? She said she would have as president get rid of the contractors.

Her Campaign web site stated that anyway. WTF?

[Hawkowl]

133. One term Obama

Paraphrasing Harry Truman, given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat acting like a Republican, Americans will choose the real Republican every time.

I can no longer stomach watching Obama on TV. I have to switch the channel.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

134. There probably aren't enough troops left...

To support all the services like food, shelter, and logistics. There is a sad reality in this. More than one, actually. Why have so many forgotten what rotten shape the country and the military were left by Bush? Why do people think it's wise to just pull up stakes and leave a country, a country we helped trash, to their own devices?

Seems too many are believing in magic change, instead of thoughtful change.

[Cherchez la Femme]

138. Obviously it doesn't matter what's 'Right' and what's 'Wrong' but

who authorizes it.

It was wrong when Bush did it? Terrible!
But A-OK when Obama does it.

:puke:

Cult of personality, anyone?
How can these people live with themselves?

No principles,
just like the Democratic Party these past few decades.
As evidenced by the crash of the Repukes, a party cannot survive without Principles

This is beyond disgusting, and sadly unsurprising.

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

141. Did I miss something?

The article states that the reason the contract HAD to be extended is because the company that will be taking over for Presidential (the Xe or Blackwater subsidiary) is not prepared to assume that responsibility. The only other alternative would have been to allow the diplomats to go unprotected. This should never happen. There is nothing wrong with this decision.

[armyowalgreens]

175. There are plenty of things wrong with this decision...

Like I have already stated, there is no excuse good enough to justify continuing a relationship with Blackwater.

[katty]

148. what?! geezus will ANYTHING change?!!

[Divine Discontent]

185. hardcore liberal progressive here

Gay, Christian yet defending of all beliefs or no belief, pro-choice, pot users getting rights, anti-war peace activist who thinks the wars should end - they should just be doing special ops on certain targets, no large scale troops & MORE contractors than even troops! AND YET - far too much is done just as B*sh woulda done...

BARF!

DADT is still ongoing in the army, the WH acts like a Public Option isn't a necessity, and the war BS has got to end...

C- so far on the administration... should be an A but someone's proving to be a centrist as I expected all along and he came across as.... DAMMIT.

[Norrin Radd]

151. kr

[pleah]

152. K&R It doesn't matter who is in power this shit never stops. n/t

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[winyanstaz]

157. This is not the change I voted for

[Dave From Canada]

161. Who would you rather gets shot at? U.S. military, or these Blackwater thugs? I think the choice is

pretty easy.

[hughee99]

162. We're paying them to be over there, so they're not over here.

Obama doesn't want a large Blackwater private army on American soil, so he's paying them to keep their people over there. He's a chessmaster, I tells ya'.

:tinfoilhat:

[Chester Berthum]

164. B-B-But, it worked out so WELL in Iraq!

Me konfyuzd!

[NeedleCast]

165. Both links seems somewhat vauge

It should come as no surprise to anyone that countractors outnumber US troops in Afghanistan. Contractor does not mean mercenary. They could be anything from blue to white collar workers and yeah, there are a lot of them ANYWHERE the military goes.

The article on Blackwater says the Feds extended a contract with a subsidiary of Blackwater.

[flyarm]

166. I posted this stuff a couple weeks ago..it all got unrec..

but last night here..i got this kind of response...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6445106&mesg_id=6448113

first I was called a racist..

of course those that did so didn't know i was married to a dual minority..and that my son is a dual minority...

and


now I am having Hitler thrown in my face!!

what is next???????

[Chulanowa]

167. I hope the Afghans give Xe the British Treatment

get our guys home and let the mercs take it on the chin. Fuck them.

[Vidar]

173. Despite his eloquence & likability, Obama is faithful to the DLC & coprorations, not the people.

[mistertrickster]

176. Wow. This is so unacceptable that the Obama-haters are going to post twice on it!

Here on DU!

Where it will do absolutely nothing.

E-mail the White House, keyboard jockeys . . .

[armyowalgreens]

178. I already emailed the whitehouse. I plan on contacting my congresspeople...

But do you actually have any legitimate issues with the OP, or are you just trying to find anything wrong so you can disqualify it's legitimacy?

I'm not an Obama hater. Simply because I actually give a damn about what's right does not make me an Obama hater.

[mistertrickster]

233. I doubt very much that Obama personally signs the paychecks of the civilian

contractors.

I don't like it either, but Washington is run by an army of bureaucrats, not one man.

[BrklynLiberal]

177. shocked!!!

just shocked, I tell you.

Money talks..and no body walks.

[flyarm]

182. Civil Liberties..for get about it!!!!!!!!!!!! It gets worse!!

A Tale of Two Nominees: Why Civil Liberties Extremists are Disappointed in Obama
By: JimWhite Wednesday September 2, 2009 5:04 am
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7752


please go to link and do read this whole article..

snip:

John Brennan served as Barack Obama's primary advisor on intelligence policy during the campaign and very shortly after the election, his name was at the top of most lists to serve as either Director of National Intelligence or Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Fortunately, because Glenn Greenwald and others pointed out how much Brennan had supported torture and illegal surveillance, Brennan withdrew his name about a week after a barrage of information about Brennan's views was made public. For example, Greenwald provided this quotation from Brennan to CBS News where Brennan is indistinguishable from Cheney:

SMITH: You know, this all becomes such a giant issue because the president has gone on record so many times saying the United States does not torture. If we acknowledge that this kind of activity goes on, you know, what does that mean, exactly, I guess?

Mr. BRENNAN: Well, the CIA has acknowledged that it has detained about 100 terrorists since 9/11, and about a third of them have been subjected to what the CIA refers to as enhanced interrogation tactics, and only a small proportion of those have in fact been subjected to the most serious types of enhanced procedures.

SMITH: Right. And you say some of this has born fruit.

Mr. BRENNAN: There have been a lot of information that has come out from these interrogation procedures that the agency has in fact used against the real hard-core terrorists. It has saved lives. And let's not forget, these are hardened terrorists who have been responsible for 9/11, who have shown no remorse at all for the deaths of 3,000 innocents.

Despite removing his name from consideration as DNI or DCI, Brennan remained at a high advisory level to Obama within the National Security Council but at a position not requiring Senate confirmation. Last week, it was announced that Obama would form a new "interrogation team" that would take over the job of interrogation of high level detainees. Here is Andrea Mitchell reporting on the team:


snip:
The new unit will be headquartered at the FBI and overseen by the NSC's counter terror chief, John Brennan, who used to run the counter terror center at the CIA.

[Divine Discontent]

184. this is the problem - he has done FAR too much like B*sh would have done if left in office, & not

enough of the VERY good things we've seen him sign off on that Congress has sent him. However, the things he directly effects (war, DADT, signing statements, defending power grabs done by B*sh and using them) he's been horrible on so far.

[wolfgangmo]

186. Doing the right thing is no harder than doing the wrong thing.

Fuck these euphamisms. Fuck Contractor and fuck mercinary.

We need to call them what they are. Hired killers.

[Politicub]

187. Every dollar we give to them chips away at our national soul

Obama Admin - STOP FUNDING THESE MERCENARIES!

Blackwater is absolutely useless. We would do better without them.

Fuck.

[flyarm]

192. Government Withholds Key Torture Documents In ACLU Lawsuit (9/1/2009)

Government Withholds Key Torture Documents In ACLU Lawsuit (9/1/2009)
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/torture/40891prs20090901.html?s_src=RSS

CIA Defends Interrogations Tactics And Secrecy

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: [phone]; [e-mail]

NEW YORK – The government has said it will continue to withhold dozens of documents related to the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody overseas. The Justice Department was facing an August 31 deadline to release the documents, including a presidential directive authorizing CIA "black sites" as well as CIA inspector general (IG) records and documents from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) regarding the CIA's use of "enhanced interrogation techniques," in response to two Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits filed by the American Civil Liberties Union.

U.S. District Court Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein of the Southern District of New York ordered the government to turn over the documents by August 31 or else provide justification for continuing to withhold them. In a filing late Monday, the CIA said it will not release the documents, claiming that disclosing details about the enhanced interrogation program would harm national security.

"The CIA's justification for withholding the documents is entirely incompatible with the Obama administration's stated commitment to ending torture and restoring governmental transparency. On the one hand, President Obama has publicly recognized that torture undermines the rule of law and America's standing in the world, but on the other, the CIA continues to argue in court that it cannot disclose information about its torture techniques because it would jeopardize the CIA's interrogation program," said Jameel Jaffer, Director of the ACLU National Security Project. "The CIA's arguments are utterly disconnected from the Obama administration's stated positions. The agency seems to be disregarding altogether the important policy changes that President Obama announced immediately after he took office."

In its filing, the CIA also argued that the information available to the public about the enhanced interrogation program should be limited to its historical context and legal underpinnings. However, the government has already released several documents that provide more than merely abstract detail about the interrogations. The Justice Department last week made public dozens of related documents as part of the ACLU's FOIA litigation, including a CIA IG report on the CIA's interrogation tactics, a December 2004 CIA background paper giving a detailed official description of the CIA's detention and interrogation program and a 2007 OLC memo describing "enhanced interrogation techniques" to be used against prisoners then in CIA custody.

"Given the vast amount of evidence that the U.S. torture program was widespread and systemic, it's disappointing that the government continues to withhold these vital documents that would fill in the remaining gaps in the public record," said Alex Abdo, a legal fellow with the ACLU's National Security Project. "The Obama administration must fulfill its commitment to transparency and release all crucial documents that would shed further light on the origins and scope of the Bush administration's torture program. The American public has a right to know the full truth about the torture that was committed in its name."


Yesterday's government filing is available online at: www.aclu.org/safefree/torture/40887lgl20090831.html

More information about the ACLU's FOIA litigation is at: www.aclu.org/accountability

[xxqqqzme]

193. Who in the 'C' street Family

has the power to award these contracts? That can be the only explanation at this point!

[Ladyhawk]

195. I trusted Obama for maybe six weeks.

It's pretty evident he's not on our side.

[Mari333]

196. The Rise of Mercenary Armies

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6454843&mesg_id=6454843

[Just-plain-Kathy]

208. "Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours"

Here's a big kick.

[Canuckistanian]

210. Um... why isn't this news?

Sorry, I just had this fleeting moment where I thought injustices were dealt with in America.

Carry on.

[DRex]

211. kick

this sucks. So frustrating.

[whistler162]

212. Unrec because I actually read the news story!

"Three officials said the contract with Presidential Airways to provide air support for U.S. diplomats was temporarily extended because the firm chosen to replace it is not yet ready to take over. The contract was due to expire on Sept. 3 and be taken over a day later by Dyncorp International."

[armyowalgreens]

214. You can't unrec after 24 hours. And on top of that, I read the story.

[whistler162]

216. Still unrec'ing the twaddle and obviously you didn't read the story!

[armyowalgreens]

217. I'm telling you that I read the story. What more do you want?

I'm not sure why you think that I did not read the story.

[whistler162]

213. Unrec because I actually read the news story!

"Three officials said the contract with Presidential Airways to provide air support for U.S. diplomats was temporarily extended because the firm chosen to replace it is not yet ready to take over. The contract was due to expire on Sept. 3 and be taken over a day later by Dyncorp International."

[humbled_opinion]

218. Oh you think this is bad..... hahahahahaha joke is on you

Wait until the 9th when Obama addresses a joint session of Congress. Public option off the table, tort reform, tax cuts and subsidies to Big Pharma....

Yep he really does want to be Ronald Raygun.

Your pissed off meter is gonna be pegged then.

[Lorien]

220. Even a Republican friend said to me today "Why the hell are we even still IN

Iraq? Didn't Obama promise that he'd get us out of there??" Funny to find out that a Fox News watch repug was secretly hoping for "Change". Sad that NONE of us are getting it!

[laughingliberal]

225. I do have to say

It gets more and more difficult to appear to be the party of the moral high ground when we are continuing the same policies and using the same unscrupulous contractors that the Bush administration used. What's our message? "Bush was awful. Let's be just like him?"

[reprehensor]

241. Completely.

I agree.