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Theory shows Public Option is better than EITHER no Public Option OR Single Payer-Pareto Optimality

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 09:43 AM
Original message
Theory shows Public Option is better than EITHER no Public Option OR Single Payer-Pareto Optimality
I agree with president Obama that if we were starting from scratch, the best health system to build would be a single payer, government run health system along the lines of the British National Health Service.

Unfortunately, we are not starting from scratch, and millions of people are currently insured through private insurance, and many of them get their insurance through their employers.

Many of these people like their insurance, and many don't like it. Some who don't like their private insurance, also are afraid of change and dislike the idea of going into a public system even more than they dislike their own private insurance. And then there are the Republicans, tea-baggers and town hall screamers who seem unable to calculate what is in their own best interests -- the kind who, it turns out, are uninsured, but are screaming against health insurance reform.

Then there are people who despise the private insurance system, perhaps because they were screwed over one or more times, who don't want to be in the private system, or people who simply prefer the simplicity and cost effectiveness of a public option.

There is a theory, from economics and game theory, that explains to some extent why given the system we have, and the public's preferences and perceptions, that the Public Option is politically the best way to improve the health financing system.

That theory is called "Pareto Optimality".

Before I go any further, I should note that I am opposed to the goal of Pareto Optimality in economics. I think its application tends to make policy makers reluctant to engage in redistribution of income, which is a bedrock concept in progressive economics. But Pareto Optimality is actually a very useful concept in politics, even if it's application to economics is questionable.

Pareto Optimality is a simple concept despite it's strange name (it is named after the person who proposed it, an Italian economist named Vilfredo Pareto). It simply asks, given any new policy, whether you can make one person better off without making any other person worse off. This is almost impossible to do in real world economics, but it's a useful "checklist" in politics.

Applied to health care reform, here's the Pareto problem:

There are people who have private insurance who want to keep it.

There are people who want to be in a public system.

A Pareto efficient solution would give people who want to stay in the private system, the ability to stay in the private system; but it would also give people who want to be in the public system the ability to opt into the public system.

Single payer, despite its efficiencies, would force people in the private system into a public system. This would generate a fierce backlash among people who, for whatever reason, would feel themselves worse off by being forced into the public system.

No public option would force people who want to opt into a public system into the private system. This would generate a backlash among progressives who have been hoping for real comprehensive reform that includes a robust public option.

The only Pareto efficient solution -- one that makes people who want a public option better off without making people who want to be in the private system worse off; and one that allows people who want to be in the private system better off without making people who want a public option worse off -- is reform of the private system plus a robust public option.

This is just a fancy way of saying, "be fair." The people against the public option seem to be arguing for "choice" but they are also saying "don't give a choice to people who want a public option." As the Obama administration and it's supporters have said over and over, if you don't want to be in the public system, don't go in the public system.

But for Chrissake, if we want to be in a public system, and if it doesn't cost you your private system, why not let us go into a public system.

Why are you trying to dictate to us that we can't have our public option, even though we are not trying to dictate to you, that you can't have your private system?

To sum up Pareto Optimality in a common phrase, it's no skin off your nose.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Pareto Optimality" = apologia for greed and RW economic policies
Even if it leads you to the correct conclusion, it has no place in this discussion.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Your "expert" comment on things economic is noted
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Your argument is predicated on an appeal to rightwing economic authority
"Pareto optimality" is a bizarre and grotesque concept that is the cornerstone of rightwing economics.

Best let this thread die, just like the rest of your "musings".

:cry: :cry: :cry:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Single payer would be the easiest to implement.
That is why the bill is so much shorter.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. No, it wouldn't -- that's the point
It would mean that all the privately insured people would have to be enrolled in a new system, and they would have the subjective experience of having their old insurance system canceled.

If you look at the history of the British National Health Service, even there, the politicians used some pretty amazing tactics to undercut the power of the medical establishment and make the new system seem "voluntary."

They basically played underpaid, poor country and working class doctors against the rich ones, by making the system look voluntary. When the 80-90% of not so well off doctors signed up, the medical establishment had to drop its opposition and the program became universal.

Making a change look like a choice always makes it easier to implement.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. If all the single-payer advocates would study the history of these plans
Edited on Thu Sep-03-09 10:09 AM by redqueen
elsewhere... maybe they might stop being so doctrinaire about it.


LOL... 'study'... I slay myself. I mean like that's going to catch on, when mindless regurgitation of dogma is SO much easier!
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. It's sad. Scratch the surface of their arguments ...
and you find they are screaming about these things without any facts. I was arguing with someone over TARP yesterday, and they didn't even know that all $700 billion hadn't been used, or that TARP ended up purchasing bank stocks instead of mortgage debt.

You're right. Actual study is not going to catch on with them, as long as they have World Socialist Web Site to tell them what to think.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. Aaaargh. Now we get to see ignorant people make a mockery of another intellectual concept.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. LOL
How's your day going? :hi:
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Taking the day off, so pretty good, actually. Ran out of smokes though... grrrr.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. LOL. It's the "science" of rightwing economics! Respect it without question!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Nope. But as I said in my #1: "'Pareto Optimality' = apologia for greed and RW economic policies"
:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. And it begins. DUers saying mathematics is right-wing. (mathematician sighs)...
Well you found me out. Congratulations.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Er, you're confused. "Pareto efficiency" isn't a mathematical concept.
Economics utilizes mathematics, but is an entirely distinct discipline--one of the "soft" or "social sciences". Certainly, the bulk of economic doctrine (including "Pareto efficiency") is not provable with any mathematic formula.

This is something any self-christened "intellectual" must know. :hi:
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Sorry. It's just math....
And your talk of "provable with any mathematic (sic) formula" disqualifies you from any discussion on the matter.

At least it would in country not comprised of idiots.


I am very sorry you don't know what math is, however.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Um, no, it's not "just math". What a bizarre misapprehension.
Economics is an ideologically laden social science which makes numerous value judgments that are by no means "mathematical". "Pareto efficiency" (and more generally the argument that economics should concern itself with "growing the pie" and ignore issues of distribution) is self-evidentally a value judgment whose validity may not be demonstrated mathematically or empirically.

Arguing this point with a self-styled "intellectual" is like arguing that water is dry.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. And American idiocy marches happily on.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Love how you can't articulate a point. nt
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. There's nothing to articulate...
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihqYRudK3nYC&pg=PA292&lpg=PA292&dq=Pareto+Optimality+calculus+of+variations&source=bl&ots=rlXMcN4Njy&sig=e2QZPKfgSEpGxkc4uis105cF70Y&hl=en&ei=juCfSsizMoemMbLwyOgP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=Pareto%20Optimality%20calculus%20of%20variations&f=false

circa p. 292.

Sociology or whatever books may talk about some bastardized popular-consumption concept that they name "pareto efficieny", but it just so many ignorant people using words they don't understand.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. The idea that this metric has validity is itself a value judgment.
Edited on Thu Sep-03-09 10:41 AM by Romulox
:facepalm:

Why not a metric (and accompanying formula) predicated on the egalitarianism of distribution? I guess "science" just wants the rich to get richer, hmmm?

:think:
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. "Science" doesn't "want" anything. People do. Durr.
Edited on Thu Sep-03-09 10:59 AM by BlooInBloo
Thanks for putting your abject confusion so succinctly, however.

At your level, it's possible that the concluding grafs of the wiki page be helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency

"When Pareto efficiency is used as a tool in politics to determine whether a situation can be improved upon or not, there is no consideration of the equity of resource allocation. It may be that one economic agent owns all of the world's resources; it would be impossible to make anyone else better off without taking something away from this agent. Assuming all resources benefit the rich agent's well-being, this situation is described as "Pareto optimal", even though it may be seen as inequitable.

More generally, it can be misleading, in that "not Pareto optimal" implies "can be improved" (making someone better off without hurting anyone), but "Pareto optimal" does not imply "cannot be improved" by some measure—it only implies that someone must receive less. Thus if an allocation is not Pareto optimal, it means that one can improve it, but does not mean that one should categorically reject it for any arbitrary Pareto optimal solution, as many of those Pareto optimal solutions will not be Pareto improvements.

In society, agents are usually taught to prefer equity. When a more equitable Pareto optimum is in view, but it would not be a Pareto improvement, the transition may be forced politically and justified by social criteria."


(This is BiB)
The concept of Pareto efficiency - a mathematical concept - can certainly be misapplied. There are plenty of arguments about that. But there's nothing wrong with the concept, any more than there's anything wrong with other tool - like a hammer. There is something wrong with people trying to screw screws in with a hammer, however. But people who don't understand what a hammer *is* really shouldn't speak on such things.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. "science wants the rich to get richer" "accounting is right wing"
How is this different from right wing religious fundamentalism in terms of its intellectual structure?
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Just Americans fighting as hard as possible to be as stupid as they can be.
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donquijoterocket Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. threads
Well of course you can install screws with a hammer. As the saying goes the threads are for taking them out.This is especially true for lag bolts and lag screws.Quite often the hammer is the optimally efficient way to install such things.Knowledge gained by 30 years as a carpenter some of it on post-frame agricultural buildings which use quite a lot of those type fasteners.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. hahahaha!
Ironic way of demonstrating my point: those who lack significant familiarity with the tools involved should stfo about them.

:rofl:

Thanks for the additional level of detail!
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. As this subthread demonstrates, there are severe limits to the efficaciousness of arguing ...
with stupid people. There's not much more to say.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Yep.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. They need to just make Medicare the Public Option and be done with it.
Edited on Thu Sep-03-09 10:07 AM by redqueen
I'm sure there are some good arguments against it... but no solution is going to be perfect.
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