Should the dying Charles Manson 'follower' be released?

[Jackeens]

Dying Manson follower denied parole

A follower of Charles Manson who was convicted of murder nearly four decades ago has lost her 18th bid for release. Susan Atkins was denied her freedom by the California Parole Board after a hearing at the prison where she is being held. She is terminally ill with brain cancer and, according to her lawyer, paralysed over much of her body.

Now 61, Atkins was convicted in 1971 of taking part in seven 'Manson Family' murders, including that of heavily pregnant actress Sharon Tate, the wife of filmmaker Roman Polanski. Her death sentence was commuted to life in prison in 1972, when the California Supreme Court abolished capital punishment. Atkins will next be eligible for parole in 2012.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0903/atkinss.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Atkins




A hell of a contrast to the Lockerbie bomber's case, released eight years into his life sentence on compassionate grounds.

[VMI Dem]

1. No.

[TxRider]

80. No, but I wouldn't be upset if they did.

It's not like she's a danger to society.

Turn her loose and make a place for someone who is dangerous.

[aquart]

2. She didn't release a pregnant woman begging for her child's life.

Unless, of course, we're just trying to dump the expense of her end-of-life health care.

[Jackeens]

4. Yeah, that part of her story leaves me cold

But reading about her, she struck me as a seriously fucked up kid (well, she was 19 when she met Manson), under the influence of a psychopath - I think she's served her time, I'd release her in light of her terminal illness.

[anneboleyn]

38. Yes. She cruelly taunted Tate and told her that she and her baby were going to die.

Then stabbed her repeatedly. No way does she get out. She will instead find out that death is often a lonely and terrifying process. She put a young woman in the prime of her life, two weeks away from giving birth, a woman crying for compassion, to a merciless death. She does not deserve any favors.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lint Head]

3. No. Not until Sharon Tate can be released from her young

death and can have her baby.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

5. I wish I were a better person,

I wish I were a more compassionate person.

I wish I could forget what Los Angeles was like during that time - I was there - on my honeymoon - when both sets of murders took place.

I wish I could forget that Sharon Tate was 8-1/2 months pregnant and this woman killed her.

But I can't.

Some people commit crimes so heinous, I cannot find anything in my heart for them. She belongs behind bars. She threw away her life, and took other lives with her. A child almost born to a young mother.

I can't forget any of that........................................

[johnnie]

6. Yes

She is costing the state a hell of a lot more to keep her in there. She is of no threat to anybody right now.

[notadmblnd]

40. Why? Why is it costng more to kep her in than to release her?

If they let her out, the state is probably gonna pay anyway. I don't imagine nursing homes are any cheaper than jail cells.

[johnnie]

45. Her husband would probably get stuck with the bills.

I believe he is a lawyer and has cash.

[notadmblnd]

83. k. I wasn't aware she was married.

[inna]

48. is that a current picture of hers?

[johnnie]

49. From today

At the hearing.

[Jackeens]

51. I think it's from her interview with Diane Sawyer in 2002 - Video link:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5176220&page=1

[customerserviceguy]

53. Who do you think it's going to cost if she's released?

She probably hasn't saved up enough from her prison jobs to pay for even a day of hospitalization. Her bill will just be passed on to the rest of us when some hospital has to take her in.

Let her die in a prison hospital. This isn't Squeaky Fromme.

[TicketyBoo]

179. Her husband has said

that if she is released, the state will not have to pay for her end-of-life care.

It really doesn't matter to me where she dies.

[Warpy]

7. Only for the comfort of her family

I'm sure they'd like to be at her bedside when she dies, something not possible in a prison hospital.

Her family committed no crime. That should be the basis for her release.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

11. Seems like some prison hospital compromise could be arranged. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

156. That's what I think too. Let the family have some extended privileges

But let her sentence remain.

[wisteria]

67. You make a good point. n/t

[librechik]

99. as i understnd it, they don't want her

the sister was saying she should burn in hell

go figure

[johnnie]

123. I think you are confused

Maybe you are thinking of Sharon Tate's sister.

[RedCappedBandit]

198. That's a good point

Like another poster said.. there should be a compromise (not just this case.. I see no reason why a dying prisoner's family shouldn't be allowed to visit)

[DefenseLawyer]

8. Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars

to care for a terminally ill paralyzed woman isn't going to bring those people back. It is sad to see all the vengeance that comes out of otherwise reasonable people when things like this come up. The purpose of prison is to rehabilitate the prisoner and protect the public, not exact vengeance. Whether she is rehabilitated or not, she obviously doesn't pose a threat to anyone. In this case she will be just as dead in a short time, whether taxpayers pick up the tab or not.

[G_j]

13. makes sense nt

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

15. Along with protecting the public, the purpose of prison is to punish people.

I have no problem having a murderer rot there till their dying day. Threat or no threat, her crime was heinous. Her dying in prison seems appropriate to me.

[DefenseLawyer]

23. Is she really being punished more?

Is dying in a hospital bed in a hospital with a prison guard in the room at government expense really going to add to her punishment more than dying in the same hospital room at her own expense? I think it adds to your sense of vengeance for the crime far more than her sense of punishment.

[johnnie]

28. I think that if this were about some other 99% of the people in for the same crime..

People wouldn't be as up in arms. If this were about some other woman that did the exact same crime but not as notorious, there wouldn't be as much outcry.

[armyowalgreens]

29. Why do we punish people?

[armyowalgreens]

32. She can't move and she can barely speak. Who are we protecting?

[customerserviceguy]

56. Justice

Simple justice. You do the crime, you do the time. She's lucky that she never got strapped into the electric chair or gas chamber that she so richly deserved.

[armyowalgreens]

63. That isn't justice. But nice try.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5802959&mesg_id=5802959

I think this is an extremely relevant topic because we are always talking about injustices in the world. But what is Justice?


According to Webster, justice can be

“ 1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments”


I think that it is extremely important to focus on the phrase “the maintenance...of what is just” because it really defines the purpose of seeking out justice for wrongs. The purpose of seeking justice is to maintain what we consider to be a proper ethical system. In other words, we don't want people running around committing crimes.

Of course you could look even further into that by saying that the reason why we seek to keep a “proper ethical system” is so that we may preserve humanity and happiness (or simply the lack of suffering). So, in the end, the reason why we seek justice is so we can prevent humans from suffering. We do not seek justice because of a higher power. Justice should function purely on logical grounds.

There also needs to be a clear line established between justice and vengeance. Vengeance is the infliction of punishment or suffering because of some wrong. An act of vengeance is not taken with regard to how that act betters society. It is not taken with regard to anyone else's welfare. It is a SELFISH ACT.

An example of vengeance would be the father of a rape victim hunting down the rapist and killing him or her because of his anger. It is an action without regard for the rapists welfare or the welfare of society. It an irrational action based on anger.

That means that vengeance can never truly be just because justice is acting with more than just regard for ones self. Justice is a selfless action. It takes into account the welfare of everyone.



That is why the desire to lock up a 14 year old and 19 year old for the rest of their lives because of their crimes is not justice. It is vengeance.

That is why capital punishment is not justice. It is vengeance.


True justice would mean that we try as best we can to change the way that 14 and 19 year old thinks. True justice would be trying to change the way a murderer thinks.

It doesn't just take into account the welfare of the perpetrators. It also means that we care about the welfare of everyone in society. Who knows what the 14 and 19 year old are capable of? If they can turn their lives around, they can contribute to the betterment of man. The same goes for a murderer or any other criminal.

I am not saying that all criminals can change their lives. What I am saying is that we must give them the opportunity to do so. To do otherwise would be unjust.


If we truly want to function as a just society, we need to rethink the way we treat everyone.

[inna]

50. not only that, but apparently she's been as rehabilitated as one could possibly be.

[Deja Q]

199. Prison is also used to punish criminal behavior. What she did and who she did it with were V I L E

If you were to ask me, I'd put Manson and his filthy friends on the chair and juice 'em 'til they're ash and then flush the ash down the toilet. And I'd feel sorry for the cesspool the ashes would arrive in.

What Manson and his followers did -- inexcusable. I've no qualms about execution against such vemrin.


I don't often like using them as a reference, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

[Dramarama]

9. Charlie more than her

[Toucano]

10. Compassionate grounds

don't exist in some places.

[WillowTree]

57. I wish for Susan Atkins all the compassion that she showed to Sharon Tate...

....as she begged for her baby's life.

She is now where she belongs.

[Toucano]

62. That is not the nature of compassion.

You think compassion is a weapon?

Well, good for you!

[proteus_lives]

103. And it shouldn't.

[thecrow]

12. NO

What is it that you don't understand about "sentenced to life in prison"?
Unless maybe they have DNA evidence that clears her of the crime?
I didn't think so.

[Jackeens]

14. Calm down thecrow, I understand 'sentenced to life in prison' alright, I was...

...simply asking whether people felt she should be released on compassionate grounds in light of her illness.

That's all.

[DefenseLawyer]

17. California allowed for the possibility of parole at the time she was sentenced.

You may not like that, maybe the prisons are quite full enough for you yet. That's fine. But the fact remains that the system was designed to review sentences and in some cases release prisoners to parole, even those that had been sentenced to "life". You seem to be the one that doesn't understand.

[thecrow]

61. She got a review... her 18th. She lost it.

My *opinion* on this has nothing to do with any feeling that "the prisons are(n't) quite full enough".
(I'm guessing that's what you meant to say)

[DefenseLawyer]

74. Yes she did.

Which is why your "what about a life sentence don't you understand?" comment made little sense.

[Statistical]

189. She got her parole hearing.

No due process violations.

Her original sentence was death so every day she lived in prison was compassion compared to the original sentence.

[DefenseLawyer]

195. No one is suggesting a violation of due process

I was responding to the suggestion that "Hey she got a life sentence you morons she can never get out" (my biased paraphrase). I was merely pointing out that even with a "life sentence" under that system, it is subject to review and it contemplates that she could potentially be released.

[Canuckistanian]

16. No. She was there during the Tate and La Bianca killings.

She deserves to die in jail.

[ruggerson]

18. No

I would defer to the families of Sharon Tate and the other people who had their lives stolen from them.

[ingac70]

19. "I don't care" isn't a choice? n/t

[Jackeens]

20. LOL - I figured the 'I don't care' crew wouldn't click on the thread

;-)

[damntexdem]

21. Only if we can get a good energy deal with some country.

;-)

[Stinky The Clown]

22. I am such a conflicted sap

I can't bring myself to say I am absolutely against the death penalty. Logically and philosophically, I am. Emotionally? I am not opposed when I imagine losing a loved one to murder.

Similarly, but with more clarity, I am generally not opposed to humanitarian release of the terminally ill from prison. I was mostly not opposed to the Lockerbie guy going back to Lybia. And I am mostly not opposed to this woman being released.

As someone wisely said, upthread, prisons are supposed to be about rehabilitation and public safety, not vengeance.

All that said, I remain very conflicted on all this.

[Jackeens]

26. I'm with you Stinky

I'd guess that I'm opposed to the death penalty 99% of the time, and then a case comes along that makes me question my opposition to it.

In this case my instinct is that she should be released, on compassionate grounds, but then I wonder how I would feel if one of her victims was a friend or family member of mine - I suspect I would never want her released.

So, hopelessly conflicted too.

[armyowalgreens]

35. I am also with you.

[AllentownJake]

24. No

There is both a punative and reform element to our justice system.

Dying in prison is part of her punishment.

[MichiganVote]

25. No. So long as her medical treatment continues for whatever she needs, no.

I don't think that comparisons with the Lockerbee bomber case are relevant. Different country, different court.

[tularetom]

27. Nowhere did I see an expression of remorse or regret

I understand her current condition may prohibit her speaking at all but apparently during the times she was able to communicate she didn't express remorse for her actions.

Sorry but I'm not prepared to advocate the release from prison of someone who apparently still feels she did nothing wrong.

[johnnie]

31. She expressed a shit load of remorse and regret.

This is a very interesting read. Not only what she has to say about her part in it all, but the truth of Manson being a punk coward. All the murders took place because he was afraid of what was going to happen to him.

http://www.susanatkins.org/6-Myth.html

[Luminous Animal]

143. Thank you for the link.

I grew up in the 60s and I saw a lot of young people discarded by their parents for "rebelling". That is, young people who eschewed the racism, sexism, homophobia of their parents and then kicked out and let loose with no familial or emotional rudder. Society was undergoing an incredible shift and for some young folks, there was little succor other than the comfort of strangers.

I have oodles of empathy for Susan Atkins, the unloved youth that carried too much of a burden and I have oodles of empathy for Susan Atkins, the dying adult who wants, probably for the only time since her mother died, to bask in the warmth of someone who unconditionally loves her.

[johnnie]

152. Thank you for the comment

This thread is sad.

[Luminous Animal]

173. You are welcome.

When I was 14, my 17 year old cousin who I adored was, essentially, killed by her best friend who was driving drunk in the vehicle they were in. The adults in family showed me the meaning of compassion, love, and forgiveness by surrounding this young women with love. Sure they were angry (angry as hell), but they took her in, they kept her close because they knew that the idiocy of youth does not define a human being.

[Ian David]

30. McCain can negotiate her release to Libya to receive a hero's welcome. n/t

[armyowalgreens]

33. I say release her.

[scheming daemons]

34. Other than Arlen Specter, we don't follow Scottish law here....

[Jackeens]

43. Chalk and cheese justice systems, that's certainly true.

[KatyMan]

36. I'm voting no

Because she showed no compassion to her victim, and no remorse afterward. Perhaps if she was released and set up so that, completely by surprise, someone broke into her house, tortured her, and stabbed her 40 times, justice may be served. But, in reality, no. Hell no. Let her rot in prison, and if I believed in it, I hope she rots in hell. There's compassion, and then there are people who deserve none.

Yes it's harsh. So was she.

[Beer on a stick]

37. If Vince Bugliosi doesn't have a problem with it, neither do I

[rug]

39. Of course she should.

It would be an interesting poll to see what the No votes want to do with her corpse.

[armyowalgreens]

41. The No voters are full of vengeful hate.

[rug]

46. Your post 32 should end this discussion.

[armyowalgreens]

55. The problem is that it won't. These people want to see her suffer.

[Mz Pip]

58. I don't want to see her suffer

I just want her to serve out her sentence.

I remember those killings. Still.

[armyowalgreens]

64. Why do you want her to serve out her sentence?

[NCDem60]

89. If she had served out....

her original sentence we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[armyowalgreens]

91. Why? What is the purpose of imprisonment?

[NCDem60]

186. She wasn't sentenced to prison.

[Mz Pip]

100. Life in prison

should mean life in prison.

[armyowalgreens]

114. You didn't answer my question. You are simply stating the obvious.

[dgibby]

73. Why?

Because you say so? What arrogance, to presume you know what's in the hearts of posters who don't happen to agree with you. Grow up!

Many of us lived through this. We didn't just read about it in a history book.

When Manson is terminally ill, are you going to advocate for his release, too?

If this had happened to someone you loved, would you be so forgiving?

If the victims' families are ok with letting her our, then you'll get no argument from me. Until then, I'm supporting the 12 citizens who found her guilty and the judical system who sentenced her.

[armyowalgreens]

78. Yes, I would advocate for Manson's release if he was as ill as her.

"If this had happened to someone you loved, would you be so forgiving?"


Interesting question. I'll answer it with another question.


If you were the loved one of Sharon Atkins, how would you feel knowing that she spent the last days of her life suffering alone in a prison hospital?

[dgibby]

86. If I were a member of her family, I'd be wearing a paper bag on my head.

Tell you what. When someone slashes one of your loved ones up in little pieces and writes all over your walls with their blood, then get back to me.

[customerserviceguy]

88. I'll answer that question

Either stupid for realizing that I should have cut all ties with her decades ago, or clueless because I let myself care about someone that was not worthy of my cares. She made that decision for me when she did what she did.

[armyowalgreens]

90. Well then clearly you don't know a lot about psychology or sociology.

[customerserviceguy]

94. Clearly

You've spent too long in the ivory tower, and not enough time in real life. Maybe we'll be lucky enough to continue this discussion twenty years after you've graduated.

[subcomhd]

141. he's writing a term paper on "real life." nt

[dgibby]

105. You keep using that response like a weapon.

Clearly, you fancy yourself more educated and intelligent that those with whom you disagree.

You have no idea what any of the rest of us know, what our educational or IQ levels, or life experiences are.

Your constant,rigid, judgmental dismissal of others is quite telling, and speaks more about you than us.

Some of us DO know a lot about psychology and sociology, both in theory and practice. In fact, some of us are pros in those fields.

[Adsos Letter]

106. Amen. Hopefully, wisdom will come with age.

[dgibby]

110. I'm thinking about another 40-50 years. n/t

[armyowalgreens]

116. Wisdom doesn't come with age. That is clearly evident in this thread.

Wisdom comes with experience and a willingness to escape ignorance.

[Adsos Letter]

180. apparently your vast experience hasn't allowed you to make that escape just yet

[armyowalgreens]

112. Obviously I think I'm right. Otherwise I wouldn't be arguing with you.

Are you a sociologist or a psychologist?

[dgibby]

132. Neither, nor did I say I was;

however, I was an RN for 35 years, with a lot of psych experience.

I realize you believe you're right. I have no problem with that. I also admire your courage for sticking to your convictions.

It's you continual denigration and disrespect of those who don't agree with you that I find both troubling and very telling. If you treat all people like that,then you must be very lonely.

[armyowalgreens]

134. I tend to lose respect for people who wish such horrible things on someone else.

[dgibby]

138. Hmmmmmmm...........

So, in your mind that gives you the right to BE disrespectful. Like I said, troubling.

[armyowalgreens]

140. I'm not disrespecting you. I'm simply speaking my mind.

I'm not going to kiss your ass, sorry.

[dgibby]

155. Fascinating response.

Don't flatter yourself. You'd never get near my ass. I have very high standards. I must say, though, you certainly have an odd definition of the word "disrespect". You seem to conflate it with some type of distasteful bodily function. Really, really fascinating. Do go on.

[armyowalgreens]

165. Wait, are we do stand-up?

“One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.”

[dgibby]

169. Jeebus, an elephant?

You've got an elephant in your pj's and your posting on DU? Isn't that called "sleeping with the enemy"? A donkey, I could understand.

[subcomhd]

142. Oh, you think he's good on this? You should have read his passionate defense of Limbaugh.

it was classic AoW.

[armyowalgreens]

145. haha. I'm glad I have a classic me. Playing the devils advocate is a necessity...

If you don't question your beliefs, you will never know if they are correct.

I take fringe positions and work my way back towards "normalcy". I stop when I think I am at the correct place.

[subcomhd]

153. dude, I love reading your stuff. That's not sarcastic. I usually don't agree with you but

I love reading it. I have a lot of respect for you, seriously. My other favorite thing is when you do a 180 and change your mind on stuff.

[armyowalgreens]

163. Who knows. You might get a 180 from me in here. I doubt it...

But it could happen.

[Statistical]

191. " If you were the loved one of Sharon Atkins, how would you feel"

I would be happy the state showed compassion and commuted the death sentence.

Justice (her sentence based on law at the time of the crime) warranted her being dead 2 decades ago.

She got 2 extra decades of life becomes of the compassion shown her.
There is a limit to compassion though.

[GaYellowDawg]

82. And the Yes voters don't give a damn for the victims or their families.

See how easy it is to paint with a broad brush?

Sharon Tate was stabbed 16 times in the chest and back. Jay Sebring was stabbed 7 times and shot once. Abigail Folger was stabbed 28 times. Voytek Frykowski was shot twice, hit with a blunt object 13 times, and stabbed 51 times. Steven Parent received a defensive slash wound, and was shot 4 times. Leno LaBianca was stabbed 12 times with a knife, and was stabbed 14 more times with a carving fork. Rosemary LaBianca was stabbed 41 times. Apparently none of this matters to you. It was a long time ago, so the crime no longer matters, right?

I think that it still matters... and according to you, I'm filled with hate. I don't hate the murderers. I simply think that dying in jail is appropriate for them.

[armyowalgreens]

84. Oh okay. Please explain to me why someone wouldn't want her released.

[GaYellowDawg]

98. I replied in the edit.

Some crimes warrant being locked away for life. LIFE. Until someone's heart stops beating permanently.

[armyowalgreens]

127. I am fully aware of the circumstances surrounding the murder.

It doesn't change my opinion.

Anyone that wishes for a repentant person to die alone in jail hates that person. This isn't about doing what's "right" for most of you guys. It's about getting even. Which is not justice.

[dgibby]

107. I voted no.

As for her corpse, bury her according to her wishes, be that standard burial or cremation.

[Journeyman]

42. She committed a hate crime -- Helter Skelter was a scheme to foment racial warfare . . .

because of the heinous nature of the crime and the base intent for which it was committed, she'll get no sympathy from me.

It was crazy, what Charlie Manson wanted to do, but that doesn't diminish the racial hatred that was the core of their desire. How can I view this in the same light as other, similar crimes committed for more subjective purpose?

I'll take it a step further: If we have no intention of releasing certain criminals (and undoubtedly, Manson will die in prison), I believe it constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment" to hold out to them the possibility that they could be released. I also believe it punishes the victims' families, as well, who have to endure repeated appearances before Parole Hearings to plead a situation that should have been resolved for all time at sentencing.

[johnnie]

47. Actually it wasn't really that

Manson shot a dealer that was black and he thought he was a Black Panther so Manson wanted the murders to look like the Black Panthers did it so they would get busted and not kill his sorry ass. Race was involved, but I don't think it was as wacky as Bugliosi made it out to be.

[Saboburns]

52. There's something about this crime and these people that make people react .

I'm 42, so I didn't live it, and don't remember it.

But, it seems to me that the huge PR this case wrought make many people squirmy, nervous, and vengeful towards the guilty.

What I'm trying to say is that this case is different. And people react differently about it.

It's a horrid crime.

I think that we've been taught to hate the perpetrators, and to hate them more than similar criminals. Some how, somewhere along the line this case makes many people react differently.

[customerserviceguy]

54. In a time when the predominant discussion among the Baby Boomers

was the ending of war, peace and love guiding the planet, and messages of social tolerance, the activities of the Manson family were a jarring note that evil will always stalk the planet, even among the counterculture.

Susan Atkins deserved to die cruelly, but lacking that, I'll settle for it being in a prison hospital. And for the "family members" that this means something to, they should have shut her out of their lives and their hearts forty years ago. It's their own fault that they're "suffering" by caring about this heartless murderer.

[armyowalgreens]

60. First off, there is no such thing as "evil". It's a term that people use to invoke...

an emotional response.

Secondly, you don't know what she deserves. Neither do I. We were not there for the crimes nor do you know her personally.

All I know is that she is basically physically incapacitated and can barely speak. Have a little compassion and let her go die in peace.

[customerserviceguy]

66. Oh, it's out there, all right

And all I have to do is look at the trail of blood the Manson family left behind that night to know what they deserve. I don't have to have been an active witness.

She has had a peaceful life (roof over her head, food on the table, etc.) for the last forty years. Forty years more than Sharon Tate and her child had.

[armyowalgreens]

69. Your argument is riddled with hyperbolic language.

Stop trying to inflate the situation. You don't need to tell me repeatedly that Sharon Tate is dead. I'm not an idiot.

40 years in prison is not a peaceful life. I don't think you know what "peaceful" means.

[customerserviceguy]

72. I suppose you think Sharon Tate is "at peace"

and all that flowery crap they say at funerals.

OK, if you're right, and she's at peace, and Susan Atkins is in hell, then great. Because I don't believe there's either a heaven or a hell after this life, and the Manson murderers truly deserve a hell.

[armyowalgreens]

77. She's isn't at peace or suffering. She is dead.

Therefore invoking her death as some sort of evidence, 40 years later, of the evil nature of this woman is ridiculous.


There is no heaven or hell. There is only existence.

[customerserviceguy]

79. And may the Manson family's continued existence

be as miserable as possible. I guess I'm old enough to remember the shock of it all. How old were you when it happened?

[armyowalgreens]

81. The Tate murders were 20 years before I was born.

You may be old enough to remember the "emotional shock" of it all and that could be biasing your response.

I see a woman that is extremely close to death. She poses no threat to society. I see something barbaric in your desire for her suffering. Labeling it as "justice" is, quite frankly, sickening to me.

[customerserviceguy]

85. Ah, so I see the problem here

To you, the Manson family murders are just ancient history, from a time when justice was noted for being imperfect. Every once in awhile, I see that sentiment on a Nazi-hunter thread, the "well, it happened so long ago, and the Nazi has led an exemplary life" sort of drivel.

Death in a prison hospital for Susan Atkins and bringing nonagenarian Nazis to trial is all about the same thing: justice. It doesn't bring back Sharon Tate or dead Jews, but it does express our society's rightful sentiments about what to do with the very worst of us.

It's not something we do to her, its about what we do for us.

[armyowalgreens]

87. I don't think this is ancient history...

I'm looking at this from an unpopular perspective. Society is full of vengeful hate. We hate so many things. It's become somewhat of a virtue. And if you don't follow the hate, you are labeled a fool.

I watched a documentary where a holocaust victim forgave a former Nazi soldier. I have read about victims of rape forgiving the offender. I've seen family members forgive people who murdered their loved ones. I know that we are capable of forgiveness and compassion. And I know that it's the right thing to do to be compassionate.

It doesn't matter if there are 10 people or 10,000,000 people calling for blood. It's still immoral to treat any human being with such contempt. It is barbaric to wish suffering on a human being.

Sometimes we let our emotions get the better of us. But it's still wrong.

[customerserviceguy]

93. Really, I'm sorry that you don't "get" the concept of justice

It's not just vengeful hate, or the need to protect the weak from the evil (yeah, another word you have trouble "getting") or the criminally insane.

It's about the value society places on the lives of the innocent. What you label as compassion, I label as mushy-headedness that devalues the sufferings endured by those who did nothing to bring that suffering upon themselves.

I'm sorry, but we just have completely different views on the subject. I really don't think either of us can "educate" the other out of our belief systems. We both share a view that there is merely existence. I choose to view the value of that existence in a different way than you do, and would deal with the criminal snuffing of that existence in a way that I feel values that existence.

[VMI Dem]

68. She can do that in a prison hospital.

Do you think they are torturing her there? LOL.

[armyowalgreens]

70. I think being forced to slowly die in a prison hospital alone is torture.

[VMI Dem]

71. Forced to die slowly? Do you think she should be euthanized?

[armyowalgreens]

75. ahh that is an excellent question...

I spent a lot of time last year researching the ethics behind euthanasia for my ethics class. It's a fairly complicated topic.

She should be allowed to choose euthanasia if she is still capable of making such a decision. If she is mentally incapacitated. that decision should likely be left up to the family.

[dgibby]

109. I suspect there are a lot of uninsured, terminally ill people

who would be grateful to get the care she's receiving. Maybe we should think of it as govt. health care.

As for the argument by some that she's suffering because she's separated from her family, she did that to herself. Evidently her family didn't mean much to her when she was busy torturing and murdering Sharon Tate and her unborn, but viable baby. That dog doesn't hunt, imo.

[Luminous Animal]

182. I think at long last, losing her mother at 14 abandoned by her father

at 16, she deserves love.

[NCDem60]

92. I am really glad for you if....

you have lived your life to this point and have never been exposed to evil. I assure you it is out there.

As far as not knowing what she deserves neither do you. The only ones that were given all the evidence about her crimes was the group of 12 that decided she deserved to die.

[armyowalgreens]

97. I was waiting for that...

"As far as not knowing what she deserves neither do you."


True. But being that none of us know what she truly deserves, the right ( or safest) thing to do under these circumstances is to be as compassionate as possible.

Even the 12 jurors did not fully understand the situation. Each had a subjective view of the evidence. And that's assuming that every last single piece of evidence was presented. Which is an impossibility.


"you have lived your life to this point and have never been exposed to evil"

I've been exposed to some pretty horrific things.

[NCDem60]

187. Please do not truncate my statements to change their meaning.

[dgibby]

113. So,

using that "logic", there is no such thing as "good",either.

Does that mean the the book, "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" is just a figment of my imagination?:evilgrin: :rofl:

[armyowalgreens]

115. There is no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil. You are correct.

[dgibby]

117. I don't recall using the term "absolute".

and neither did you in your post. Nice try, though.

[armyowalgreens]

120. So are you talking about right and wrong actions? Yes both exist.

I take issue with people labeling someone as "evil" that implies absolute evilness. So yes, absolute evil has come up already.

No one is absolutely good or absolutely evil. So to call Sharon Atkins "evil" is ludicrous.

[Jackeens]

59. For anyone interested link to (video) interview with Susan Atkins here:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5176220&page=1

[-..__...]

65. Sure...

maybe she can be shipped off to Libya for a heroes welcome too.

[flvegan]

76. Absolutely not.

Life in prison was her punishment. Let her serve it.

[JanMichael]

95. I hope her death is peaceful and pain free, and in prison

I have compassion for her as a human; I don't think she should be released per her crime and sentence.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

96. That's not for me to say. It was the families of the victims who spoke against it

If it weren't for the fact that they spoke so passionately against it, even with her in a current mostly paralyzed state, I think she would have been released. One reason I believe this is the prison she's in doesn't to my knowledge have a hospice facility anymore. The reason being they rely on compassionate releases for the inmates at that stage of their illness.

A more recent photo of Susan Atkins with her husband/attorney.

[proteus_lives]

101. Hell no!

No compassionate release for murderers.

Where was Atkins' compassion for Tate?

Let her die in prison.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

102. delete

:*

[Adsos Letter]

104. Here are two opinions from the prosecutors in the case:

Vincent Bugliosi, who prosecuted Atkins, said he was not opposed to her release given her current condition, adding that she had paid "substantially, though not completely, for her horrendous crimes. Paying completely would mean imposing the death penalty."<26> Bugliosi also stated that he supported her release in order to save the state money. The cost for Atkins' medical care since she was hospitalized on March 18, 2008 has reportedly surpassed $1.15 million with additional cost of over $300,000 to guard her hospital room." <25> Bugliosi stated that he was challenging the notion that "just because Susan Atkins showed no mercy to her victims, we therefore are duty-bound to follow her inhumanity and show no mercy to her." <27>

Former prosecutor Stephen R. Kay, who also prosecuted Manson supporters, opposed Atkins' release, stating:

“ Atkins married twice while in prison. For a long time, she got conjugal visits and Sharon Tate and the others were dead and buried long ago. So I think it's a matter of principle that she should not be granted clemency. ”
Kay also stated that he had attended about 60 parole hearings related to the murders and spent considerable time with the victims' families and witnessing their suffering.<27>

And here is a statement from Sharon Tate's father from a 2000 parole request, admittedly not under the "compaasionate release" category:

"Thirty one years ago I sat in a courtroom with a jury and watched with others. I saw a young woman who giggled, snickered and shouted out insults, even while testifying about my daughter's last breath, she laughed. My family was ripped apart. If Susan Atkins is released to rejoin her family, where is the justice?"

Here are three statements from victim relatives regarding the "compassionate release" request:

Debra Tate, the only surviving immediate relative of murder victim Sharon Tate, spoke in opposition to a compassionate release for Atkins, stating that "She will be set free when judged by God. It's important that she die in incarceration."<25> Pam Turner, a cousin of Sharon Tate, also opposed Atkins' release, stating that "If she were capable of comprehending what our family's been through, she would be ashamed to come before this parole board and ask such a request." Anthony DiMaria, the nephew of murder victim Thomas Jay Sebring, also opposed Atkins' release stating that "You will hear various opinions with respect to this today, but you will hear nothing from the nine people who lie in their graves and suffered horrendous deaths at the hands of Susan Atkins."

If you check the wikepedia site, you will also see what type of life this woman endured during her formative years; it ain't pretty, and causes me a lot of confliction on this issue.

And yes, I realize many people experience horrible situations in their youth, and don't go on to commit crimes; myself being one of them. Still...

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Atkins


Edited to include statement from Tate's father.

[yawnmaster]

108. She should die in prison.

Whats the use of letting her out.
Once she is dead she won't remember where she died, as she will be dead.
Only those living will know that she died outside of prison, and its best that those living know that she completed her term in prison.

[depakid]

111. Reading some of the comments- it's really not hard to see why America breeds people like Ms. Atkins

[yawnmaster]

122. explain please. eom

[depakid]

125. Think about it...

[yawnmaster]

126. I have and I don't see it...explain your position, please. eom

[depakid]

177. Apparently you haven't

Though about it, that is.

Have a look around at what's been written here= or on many other similar- and much lesser sorts of deals.

What sort of people do you see?

[proteus_lives]

181. Yup, we're horrible trolls.

Compared to the rest of the world were there is no murder, hate, theft, war, greed or malice. (Especially in Australia. Where perfect beings called Ozzies walk in white robes discussing which Russell Crowe movie is most transcendent.)


:eyes:

[subcomhd]

118. She isn't in prison.

She is in a hospital outside of prison. The release would only be symbolic, as she would remain in the same hospital dying. Besides it's moot. The release was denied.

[yawnmaster]

121. its good that she symbolically dies in prison. eom

[subcomhd]

128. frankly I don't give a shit one way or the other. nt

[bridgit]

119. Vengeance is not mine...vengeance is the province of a system we only think we hold dear...

[Swamp Rat]

129. Now I will have nightmares

:(

[bridgit]

166. Well...but I love you...

And that's the important thing so says me :loveya:
http://image.hotrod.com/f/9283801/hrdp_0706_02_z+10_historic_hot_rod_engines+swamp_rat_396_hemi.jpg

[Swamp Rat]

174. says me too

:hug: Now I'll dream of polished cam shafts and jugs :D



MOPAR Roolz!

[armyowalgreens]

131. You should have labeled your post to warn us. Thanks for being so considerate.

[yawnmaster]

135. reality sometimes sucks. eom

[armyowalgreens]

136. Well I would have liked to have been prepared before I looked. You know like not eating.

[yawnmaster]

137. sometimes its best to get the full, raw taste of evil. Can't get that if you prepare for it.

[armyowalgreens]

139. That's not "evil". It's a grizzly crime scene.

What you are speaking of is "shock value". Which is nothing more than a hyper-emotional response to a situation that you have not been desensitized to.

Even if I was desensitized to that image, I would still know that the murder was wrong.

[yawnmaster]

144. That "grizzly crime scene" is a result of the evil contained in Atkins.

The scene itself is not evil, but the act that created the scene, is.

[armyowalgreens]

146. We don't contain "evil". That would require evil to be tangible.

Evil is a concept constructed by man.

[yawnmaster]

150. Atkins contained evil. Many things are concepts constructed by man...

Yet they exist.
Time is a construct of man, for instance.

[armyowalgreens]

157. We are subjective beings. We observe what we perceive to be reality...

And we apply concepts to things that we interact with.

Evil was conceptualized by man. It is an interpretation of some thing that we have observed. It is that "thing" we observed that truly exists (assuming that there is such a thing as "existence"). The concept that we use is merely an interpretation.


So no, evil is not tangible. It is a concept and therefore cannot be contained inside someone.

[yawnmaster]

160. The mind is not tangible, and is the perfect place for the non tangible evil to exist.

And that is where it exists in here. In her mind (another human conceptualization).

[armyowalgreens]

164. Maybe I should be asking you what you mean by "evil"...

I think I made a mistake by not asking you that in the beginning.

[yawnmaster]

170. Evil is in opposition to good. And no...it is not absolute...

There are various levels.
Generally, I see it as an adjective, and thus describes something, so I should have said that Atkins had an evil mind instead of saying she had evil in her mind. She definitely had evil acts in her mind.
Now one might say, well then isn't "wrong" or "bad" the same as evil, as they are also in opposition to "good"?
Not necessarily, one can be wrong or do a bad thing and it might not be evil.
One might look at bad, or wrong as being on the ethical scale.
Evil, on the other hand, is judged on the moral scale.
Oh oh...whats moral?
Again, a concept created by man...and there are many definitions to what is moral or amoral.
It is generally agreed, in our society, at this time, that rape and murder are amoral, and I would, generally,classify them as evil, especially under the circumstances in which Atkins committed the murders.

[yawnmaster]

171. btw...thanks for the discussion...must sleep now. eom

[bridgit]

151. Mm, well, Walgreens is a concept constructed by man

Is Walgreens then "evil"?

[armyowalgreens]

158. I'm not following your path of logic.

[bridgit]

161. Understood

[armyowalgreens]

172. So could you enlighten me?

[bridgit]

176. "evil" is not per se an oriental concept, it is an *occidental* concept...

By leaving out Middle Earth, and Talumdically splitting these westernized hairs & points of reference remaining into *windmill turns pumps water keeps people clean & happy = good v. windmill blows over cause of heavy wind (or the, ahem, evil warlord pulls it fucking down poisoning your well in an vibrant attempt to rout your people from their securities) no one gets a bath = bad* = yin/yang (otherwise very simple), you become stuck - on the occidental notion of what evil seems to be, in-tell-ectually, or not to be which is too often tied up in the remembrances of George Lucas and his leather clad jack-booted Nazi's rifling the Ark of The Covenant itself come on...

Evil, or for that matter: your windmill blowing down; is only good if you think so. People only think evil is not tangible until it befalls them. Then come the diverse opinions regarding same into what is, what is not, and what will never ever be

[customerserviceguy]

183. Does artistic talent have to be tangible before you would believe that it exists?

Shakespeare said it best: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[Vickers]

124. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but..let her go.

And yes, I am very aware of the brutality of her crimes, the original death sentence, etc.

I'm a law-and-order type guy, but even I am surprised at some of the responses in this thread.

[Warren DeMontague]

130. How about we worry about the millions of non-violent drug offenders in prison, instead?

Sorry. My sympathies for murderers, rapists, and other violent criminals is rather limited.

[yawnmaster]

133. very much agree. eom

[inthebrain]

147. Yes

40 years is long enough.

She's dying.

Folks don't realize that this ladies family has also been punished here. Let them have their last moments with her. It's not asking too much.

[johnnie]

148. I'm amazed at some of the posts here

I could understand if someone says that they think she should just serve out her sentence, but this "eye for and eye tooth for a tooth" gawd crap is unreal. Not many here seem to know the real story of this woman. It's no excuse for what she did, but her mother died when she was very young and her father became an abusive alcoholic. She ran off and got mixed up in the drugs and craziness of the times and got pregnant. The dude she got messed up with was 20 years older than her and an ex con who knew how to manipulate people and because he shot some guy who he thought was a Black Panther he decided to use many of his followers to cover his sorry ass so he didn't go to jail again or get fucked up by the Panthers.

He took this woman's daughter and kept her away from her. She was a 19 year old fucked up woman who had her child taken from her and held against her. Once again, I'm not making excuses but there is so much more to the story here than a movie and book explained and what happened happened.

She has admitted what she did was horrible, she has come clean and paid for her crime for the last 40 years. She has helped other women in prison and became a model prisoner trying to give back. She is paralyzed in over 80% of her body and has very little time to live due to cancer of her brain and other parts of her body.

Her life was shit since she was a teen and has probably not had a day of "freedom" in over 50 years. It's fine to say that you think she should finish out her original sentence, but the hatred and lack of compassion in this thread blows my mind.

[dgibby]

162. There's a hell of a lot of compassion on this thread.

Perhaps you missed it because it's for her victims and their loved ones.

Personally, as I said up thread, if the relatives of her victims were in favor of release, I'd respect their decisions, but they didn't, and they're the only ones, imo, who really count.

As for her illness, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy or Susan, and I'm very sorry that her life was so horrible, but as you said, that's no excuse. Lots of people have endured far worse and not done the things she did.

[johnnie]

168. I didn't miss anything

The compassion for the family of the victims is admirable, but why pick and choose compassion? And as I have said, to voice an opinion that one thinks she should serve out her sentence and not be released is fine with me, it's the vitriol comments on this post that amazes me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. If we had compassion as one of our values, she would

alas we don't

Oh and compassion is a real value, that we do not practice. Nor does it excuse what SHE DID.

[armyowalgreens]

159. I think people believe that being compassionate means that you are weak.

Which is ridiculous.

[subcomhd]

154. sharon tate after meeting atkins

[Quantess]

167. Yes, absolutely.

I remember seeing an interview of Susan Atkins in prison in the early 1990s. She seemed so contrite. She was denouncing everything that "Charlie" Manson had made her do. Clearly, being in prison forced her to be clean of drugs. That says a lot about her character.

[kentuck]

175. She is dying...

We get no reward for revenge. Our compassion should not be calibrated to the lack of compassion of this dying person. It speaks volumes about us as a people and as a person.

[backscatter712]

178. Fuck, no. She can die in the prison infirmary.

I hope she's fucking suffering. It's all she deserves. No mercy.

[mindfulNJ]

184. Wow. I just realized

that I really don't care...is that bad?:shrug:

[Vinca]

185. What hospital is going to take her without insurance?

She's better off in prison anyway.

[Statistical]

188. If she wanted a shorter sentence she could have taken a needle in the arm years ago.

Personally I hope she gets no parole in 2012 and serves life

At a minimum she shouldn't get out a day before her parole date.

[JackRiddler]

190. Unlike Megrahi (the Lockerbie patsy), she appears to be guilty of the crime.

If that's relevant.

[NotThisTime]

192. No, she's getting what she deserves for what she did... she's getting more than she deserves, I'd

say the same for anyone who did what she did....

[maxsolomon]

193. The quality of mercy is not strained.

It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice.

[Vidar]

194. No, but I could go the other way.

[davidpdx]

196. No

No matter what, she'll die in a hospital.

[scrinmaster]

197. Nope,

She can stay in there til she's dead.