‘Clunkers’ raises prices, hurts poor

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: GadsdenTimes

The popular Cash for Clunkers helped new car dealers, but it is dramatically raising the price of relatively inexpensive used cars, hurting the poor, dealers say.
The Car Allowance Rebate System, commonly called Cash for Clunkers, took 690,000 operable cars out of the market that is beginning to reflect effects of the shortage.

A smaller supply of used cars in the next six months will affect the auto-parts market that lower-income drivers and hobbyists rely on to keep their older cars running.

Ronnie Watkins, a Ford dealer in Gadsden, said he told his car buyers not to even attend a recent auto auction for used cars because prices have gone up.

“I bought 20 Ford Fusions from a wholesaler about three weeks ago,” Watkins said. “This car has now gone up over $1,000.”



Read more: http://www.gadsdentimes.com/article/20090903/NEWS/909039966?Title=-Clunkers-raises-prices-hurts-poor

[Liberal_in_LA]

1. unintended consequences. K&R

[Demeter]

35. Oh, I Think The Consequences Were Intentional

Because the people who depend on used cars (also known as economically disadvantaged, or poor) wouldn't be able to turn in their clunkers for expensive new cars anyway. Stomp on the poor, that's the game! Like whack a mole.

[omega minimo]

46. Older (poor) cars with good gas mileage don't apply; newer, (yuppie) gas guzzlers do.

[DainBramaged]

148. Wrong wrong wrong.

The NUMBER ONE VEHICLE traded for was the Toyota Corolla, at 2.9% interest over 60 months with an average selling price of LESS than $12,000 after the clunker rebate, amounting to a payment of about $215 a month. If you had bothered to do ANY research you would have found that.

[TwilightGardener]

2. Aw, the used-car lots that sell crap cars for high prices to people

with bad credit are hurtin'? Wahhh.

[Psephos]

41. You somehow omitted to mention the vast, private direct sales of used cars on Craigslist

But no big deal, at least a scapegoat has been found. ;)

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Sorry, I call bulls**t on this. CARS didn't take 690,000 cars out of the resale market because they

were never in it. Without the rebat program, somebody would still be driving them.

Just another industry, used car sales, to blame something else for their raising prices because of greed.

[blue_onyx]

8. I know...it make no sense

I'm sure many people have been buying used cars, rather than new ones, during the recession. If anything increased the price of used cars, it's the increased demand for used vehicles.

So many people, including many on DU, are determined to find something to invalidate the "Cash for Clunkers" program.

[PopSixSquish]

115. Many on DU are Determined to Find Something to Invalidate Any Program of Obama's

funny that...

[DainBramaged]

153. The demand for Used cars has skyrocketed during the recession

why not let someone else take the depreciation hit, and get MORE for your money. Stats are not kept on used car registrations, but used SUV's and trucks are in very short supply.

[Dreamer Tatum]

28. Actually, it's not bullshit

Yes, someone would still be driving them if not for the rebate program, but then again, no one would be driving the NEW cars. That's part of the point, to sell new cars.

Taking the used cars totally off the market creates a definite pecuniary externality on those who cannot afford a new car under any circumstances.

CARS was never specifically intended to help the poor, but it does seem to be hurting their ability to find low-priced used cars.

[blue_onyx]

42. It is bullshit

In no way did the program hurt people's ability to buy used vehicles. The vehicles destroyed were never in the used market. For example, if I had decided to trade my vehicle in (which I may have done if it qualified), it would have been destroyed. If not for the program, I wouldn't have even considered buying a new car and my car would have remained in my driveway. How on earth does this have any effect on the used market?

If anything, "Cash for Clunker" should drive the used prices DOWN. Many people are buying used now because they can't afford a new car. C4C may have pushed many people to buy new when those people otherwise may have considered a used vehicle. So C4C may have actually decreased demand for used vehicles, thereby decrease prices.

[bighart]

61. they may not have been in the used car market currently,

but some of them WOULD have ended up in the market. The program did take cars directly OUT of the used car market, maybe not today but at some point in the future.

[blue_onyx]

68. So....

You're saying that cars which may have been taken out of the future used car market are effecting the current price of used cars? That makes no sense.

[bighart]

87. Truth is I think used car prices will go up

because this will be a ready excuse for used car dealers to raise the prices.

[DainBramaged]

161. You don't understand how the used car market works do you?

Cars are TRADED IN on NEW cars. Dealers, depending on the age, brand and QUALITY of the trades may or may not decide to keep them. the ones he DON'T keep are either sold to wholesalers who peddle them to other dealers or used car ONLY dealers, or they go to AUCTIONS like Mannheim, to be sold to the highest bidder. Then (98% of the time) the dealer who eventually winds up with the trade refurbishes it for resale to the public. Then there are lease returns, repossions, rental fleets........


Should they not be allowed a profit?


http://www2.manheim.com/

[SemiCharmedQuark]

152. How far into the future are you speculating?

[DainBramaged]

158. What we have found it that is directly affecting the first time driver market

where the first car is a two or three thousand dollar high mileage car that market is drying up fast and the prices are creeping up to four and five thousand now. Example, in NJ, we have shitty roads in the winter, so older Blazers, Explorers etc are very popular for first vehicles to help kids learn to drive on winter roads. Now so many of those are out of the market the remaining ones are getting a higher price. And the NUMBER ONER traded vehicle was the Ford Explorer.

[datasuspect]

39. no, but a good percentage of those units would have eventually ended up in the used market

instead, they went to salvage yards. it's a ripple effect, and it increased the cost of remaining used car stock.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. oh and over what period of time?

So what percentage of the used car market over that period of time would these clunkers represent? What? You have no idea? So you agree then that the OP is speculative bullshit that cannot be substantiated. And of course only the engines are wrecked for CFC so the rest of the parts go right back into the used parts market where these same poor people for whom we cannot actually establish the harm done to them in the form of increased car prices, also benefit from a possibly offsetting and equally indeterminate reduction in car part prices.

[datasuspect]

117. no, the cars are simply crushed and sold for scrap metal

no parts make it to any secondary market.

[Warren Stupidity]

70. HUSH now, we are busy finding fault EVERYWHERE

[DainBramaged]

150. You got it thanks for applying logic to the thread.

There were vehicles being driven EVERY DAY by NORMAL PEOPLE who not so much because they couldn't afford to tade them, they were suitable for every day driving. Now we got those pieces of shit off the road.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

151. Yep! I know 3 people that participated in CARS.

They would not have bought a new car if there was no deal. AND they all bought American. So there's that too.

[DainBramaged]

157. The rebates were worth WAY more than their cars would ever bring even sold privately

The AVERAGE age of the trade-ins across the country was 12 years, so in car generations that's TWO whole generations of engineering that was updated. we did 67, and I have friend who did over 10. Problem is we're still waiting to get paid. The Government temps who are proofing the deals aren't car people and are rejecting deals for absolutely stupid reasons We've been paid on 15 since July 25th.

[TheCML]

4. It did bum me out.

When my car is on its last leg and I saw them blowing the engines and demolishing perfectly good vehicles.

[Jennicut]

6. Perfectly good vehicles? How can a poor person afford to put gas into as gas-guzzling vehicle?

When I lived in the city in my mid twenties about 8 years ago, most of the poor had used Toyotas, Hondas, or Suburus. And they were all smaller cars like the Civic (which I used to own until recently).

[TheCML]

7. wait.

Who said I was poor? I just drive my vehicles until they dont run anymore.

[Jennicut]

9. I do too.

But these were not perfectly good vehicles.

[JeanGrey]

106. I would think because they can't afford to buy another car!

It's one things to pay 20-40 more per week for gas, and quite another to buy a used car when you probably have no down payment, and no credit.

[bobbolink]

136. The point you're missing is that THIS is all that's left.

The same thing happened in the 80s, when the gas prices spiked, and people rushed out to buy smaller cars.

All that was left in the used car market was LAND YACHTS.

Some of us were around then, and remember.

Not *everyone* can go out and buy a new Prius.

[Dogtown]

5. Complaints of a (black) Democrat President's policy

in the rural deep south?

I'm slightly distrustful of this article.

[madokie]

11. slightly?

hell I'll full blown distrustful of this article.
Its all about the color of the mans skin and nothing more. If not for that he would be hailed as the most bestest of all Presidents because of his easy manner and progressive ideas on ways to better most of all our everyday lives.

[Dogtown]

13. "Slightly" with a wink.

There's a Klan Koven in Gadsden.

If it's from Gadsden, it's all about race.

[Kalyke]

15. Yawn...

Very tired of the "only the South has racists" bullshit on this board.

[Dogtown]

18. Never said that.

Born and raised in the Midwest, and there's *plenty* of racial hate there.

Lived 15 years outside of Atlanta. There's plenty *more* racism here and you know it's true, even if you'd like to keep it in the closet.

Very, VERY tired of the apologists who bristle if any true assessments are made about the South.

I never saw family photographs depicting "strange fruit" picnics for sale anywhere but rural Georgia, though I suppose they're treasured in TN, as well.

BTW, I always purchase those heirlooms and donate them to the MLK Museum.

[Kalyke]

20. There's even *more* racism in Boston.

Which is nearly as far away from the South you can get without leaving the country.

Hubby's from there and his "true assessment" of the South is that we're far less racist than where he's from and what he was taught to believe.

Very, VERY, VERY tired of people spouting off their mouths without any proof.

BTW, what the fuck is a strange fruit picnic? Never heard of 'em.

[Gold Metal Flake]

23. While you are schooling us on racism, you should learn a little about it.

Try Google.

[Kalyke]

31. I'm not schooling you on racism.

I'm schooling you on the bigotry against anything Southern.

My point is that racism is not the property of the South.

If that poster's comments were the *only* comment I'd ever seen on this board about how God-awful the South is, it would have rolled off my back - but it's a daily occurrence on DU by folks who wouldn't know a Southerner if they walked up and said, "Howdy Doo?"

And, for your information, I did look it up. It's a testament to my area that I have never heard of them, not ignorance. If the poster had simply said "lynchings" instead of quoting a Billie Holiday song, I would have known what they were.

And, if I were from Southern California, home of massive xenophobia, I wouldn't be commenting too much on the issue of racism. :eyes:

[Gold Metal Flake]

38. Ah, you are schooling us on regional bigotry, while indulging in regional bigotry.

Hypocrite much?

And, FYI, I was born in Louisiana and raised in Houston. See, I am more than my DU profile might suggest to someone grasping for a rash and ignorant flame.

[Hansel]

126. Overt racism is a product of the south. Up north racism is a covert sport.

I have lived in Minnesota most of my life and there are plenty of red-neck racists here. We just have never posted signs saying "whites only". One of my friends, a black man from the south, said he would rather live in the south because at least the racists were open about it. Here, he couldn't tell for sure who was and wasn't and it made him more self-conscious and unsure of himself.

[Horse with no Name]

26. This might help

Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.

[Dogtown]

55. Thank you, Horse w/n Name

Haunting lyrics, they bring a chill just reading them.

[Kalyke]

29. Just looked up a strange fruit picnic.

Lynchings.


Yes. They happened. Decades ago.

The fact is that the South's race wars happened violently and publicly and we're now better for it. We don't sweep racism under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist like many in the rest of the nation do. It's dealt with here - and, as with much of the rest of the nation, will not completely die out until the oldest of our living generations do.

[Horse with no Name]

34. Lynchings weren't so long ago.

Just ask the family's of James Byrd and Brandon McClelland.
However, the lynchings have been replaced with hate crimes. I guess it is more acceptable to some.
I live in the South and yes, racism IS swept under the rug. But it exists. To deny it is to deny reality.

[Dogtown]

54. You replied to yourself

but I'll address your displaced deflection of my commentary, since I was able to locate it.


My note on the lynching photos was NOT the lynching themselves. We know that racial attacks are no longer sanctioned in the South.

My concern is that mementos of these events are as treasured as Civil War Memorabilia (and SS daggers) in the South. Anecdotal evidence and of limited provenance, so I responded to your challenge of proof in my post #44, even though you offered nothing but a third-person anecdote yourself.

You have yet to address my citations, yet you try to deflect the thrust of my responses to you by pretending to think I was objecting to the (clearly) racist PAST of your homeland, when it was clear that I was mentioning the PRESENT-DAY traffic in these horrible heirlooms as support for my premise.


Now, how about some objective evidence of your own to counter the PRESENT-DAY statistics I provided? Or are you too busy misinterpreting posts and trying to find minutae to side-track the discussion?

[Raineyb]

170. Decades means 10 years. We've had lynchings more recently than that.

Furthermore, there have been threats of lynchings just this year.

You might want to get your time line correct if you're going to try to defend the (rightfully earned) reputation of the south.

And racism in this whole country is quite alive and well so if you think that waiting for the old folk to die will get rid of that you're mistaken there too.

No the south doesn't sweep racism under the rug, they leave it out in the open to fester and pretend they've dealt with it. The last election shows that to be a big fat lie.

[Dogtown]

44. "Strange Fruit"

is a song by Nina Simone. I referred, with this musical allusion, to the photographs of southern families picnicking beneath the bodies of black men lynched by southern mobs. In the past 15 years I have seen numerous collections of these treasured heirlooms for sale in "antique" shops and flea markets in the area surrounding my abode.

You didn't ask for "proof" before, but I'll take the attestation of your source and work from that.

Consensus on racism is pretty subjective; hence, your "hubby's" supposition doesn't trump mine. Let's turn to an objective source:

The SPLC cites 36 Hate Groups in AL, 40 in GA, and 38 in TN. Compare to the 13 in Massachusetts.

The relative populations, estimated in 2008(from WIKI):
GA 9,685,744

MA 6,497,967

TN 6,214,888

AL 4,661,900

Thus, we see that TN has 3 times the institutionalized racism of MA, though the population is noticeably less. Georgia, w/ less than a third more population, also has 3X the racism (2 of the groups in Georgia are black separatist so I've discounted them from the averages, as I believe we're discussing white racism.)

Alabama (the state mentioned in the OP), with only 2/3 the population of MA, has nearly thrice the number of haters as MA.

Pretty conclusive evidence. It would behoove you to check your own facts before attacking another poster, it will save you future embarrassment.

Morris Dees, BTW, is a native Alabaman.

[rox63]

53. I don't know about that...

I've lived in eastern MA for my whole life. Yes, Boston was bad in the 70's, especially around busing and integrating public housing. But things have changed a lot, and Boston is now a majority minority city. We have a black governor, and the city of Cambridge has a black, out lesbian mayor.

[JonQ]

65. Yep, this is an old racist canard

Down here we routinely make jokes about how the blacks are all working to make used cars more expensive thus putting poor people at a disadvantage, when they aren't eating watermelon.

Yeup, that's the only reason for this.

[Dogtown]

80. What a reasoned response!

Do you have anything of substance to add?

[JonQ]

83. A reasoned response to a reasoned comment

You believe that any facts that make obama look bad if comming from the south must be based on racism.

Proof: obama is black, all southerners are racist, that is all.

I pointed out the absurdity of that claim.

Not all southerners are racist (actually there are more hate groups in the north and California than in southern states), and not all criticism of a black president is based on racism. It is a ridiculous argument that makes it harder to root out actual racism (the old boy who cried wolf thing). In all likelyhood the response would have been the same had hillary won, or mccain if he implemented the program.

The only color involved here is green.

[Dogtown]

91. That's better, but

your assumptions are wrong. I suggested that the particular objection as stated in this article was a red herring and that the true objection is racially motivated. It's my *belief* that most of the obstructionism we see is, AT ROOT, a result of racism.

You and the other apologist insist that I've said that all Southerners are racist. I never said anything like that. It's *your* defensiveness that makes you think so.

And there is much for an apologist to be defensive about.

Since you insist that I'm displaying unwarranted bigotry against ALL Southerners, please refer to my post #44. The numbers are clear. You can view the map here:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

I hate to spoon-feed folks too intellectually lazy to do their own research, but you can not reasonably look at the map and deny that the weight of racism sinks heavily to the south.

True, the North may have a larger total number of groups (especially if you try to count all the Western states as "Northern"), but, pound for pound, state by state, the Southern states individually have produced disproportionately larger numbers of racist groups per capita.

Your home state leads the pack, BTW. 66 groups per 24 million folks. Compare that to New York with 24 groups for nearly 20 million souls. Texas is only beaten by California, with 84 for a population of 37 million. The ratio is nearly the same, but California is by no means a "Northern" state; hence, the premise you object to is proven to be valid.

I'll repeat, however, that I never presented that premise. I inferred that Gadsden, AL is one racist shit-hole town. A reasonable inference, as it turns out.

[JonQ]

181. Do you remember when bill clinton was president?

Was he praised daily by the GOP and southern states?

As I recall he was roasted constantly. How do you blame that on racism?

The fact is the president will always receive criticism from the opposing side. The fact that obama has a D after his name explains this, not his skin color. If he had a little R after it republicans would think he was god and democrats would be demonizing him (with republicans trying to pass off all criticism a racism).

Texas: 66/25 million = 0.0000026
NY: 40/8 million = 0.0000050 - higher

MI: 23/10 million 0.0000023 -virtually identical
NJ: 40/8.6 million = .00000465 - higher
RI: 2/1million = 0.000002 - comparable
PA: 37/12.4million = .000003 - higher

You forgot to include population when you figured that. Texas has alot of people, more so than many northern states. So per capita the north seems to be winning.


And you made the statement that as it was coming from the south (you didn't say gadsden AL, but rather the south in general) it must be racist. Both a bigoted, condescending as as I've shown, inaccurate statement. I suppose next time criticism comes from say, CA I could merely state; well it is california, what do you expect from those racists? And no one would have a problem with this.

[Lars39]

10. "Dealers say"

Let me tell you about some of the dealers we encountered when we were trying to find a dealership still participating in the program. They had stopped 2 weeks before the program ended and were bad mouthing Obama , the program, big government to anyone who would listen. It is not a stretch to realize that these Republican car dealers will do anything to make the Obama administration look bad...even to the extent of alienating potential Democratic customers like me and my husband. And then 2 weeks later they have the nerve to call to try to sell you a car! :grr:

[TokenQueer]

12. Open a window...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

14. I said this would happen.

[Gold Metal Flake]

24. Good for you for being so self-satisfied.

Now, prove that it is really happening if you want the credit.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

56. There's a little theory called supply and demand. You destroy 700,000 cars that would be

affordable to the likes of me, taking them out of the market, and the only place for prices to go are up.

And there is no reason for you to be rude.

http://www.timesoftheinternet.com/107050.html

[Gold Metal Flake]

57. Please present proof that what you assume has in fact taken place.

[Warren Stupidity]

79. was there something wrong with the other 249,300,000 cars?

[Zynx]

174. It's hardly a crisis.

[Gold Metal Flake]

16. Bull. Shit.

There are millions of cars across the country. Private parties are still selling cars. I would not have sold my Colony Park if I had not traded it in under CARS. I was planning to keep it as a spare.

Used car dealers justifying gouging the public. That's all this is. Buy from a private party, not a used car dealer. Save money.

[Dreamer Tatum]

40. A lot of those private parties don't have cars to sell anymore

They didn't sell them to Joe down the street and go pick up a new Accord. They took the old car in, got the Accord,
and the old car that could have been sold to Joe down the street was compacted.

[Gold Metal Flake]

43. You have proof that private party inventory of excess or for sale cars has been reduced?

With the reduction occurring suddenly over the past 60 days?

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[Dreamer Tatum]

52. Yes, I do.

CARS took 690,000 cars off the market, permanently. Many of those cars would have never made it to used car lots because they're too old and/or beat up.

It's this simple: when you reduce the stock of something that is sold, the new relative scarcity prices some people out of the market.

[Gold Metal Flake]

58. You just defeated your own arguement.

"Many of those cars would have never made it to used car lots because they're too old and/or beat up."

Then they are too old and/or beat up to be used. Poor folks can't afford to pay to repeatedly attempt to repair a lost cause.

[Dreamer Tatum]

62. I don't think so.

Dealer's used car lots only carry fairly newer cars. Buy-here, pay-here, mom and pop lots sell the next tier down,
and your 1987 Monte Carlos and such are generally sold by one private party to another.

My argument surrounds the mom and pop lots and below. The stock of those vehicles takes a hit if a substantial number
of them leaves the market permanently.

[Gold Metal Flake]

67. If if if.

I'll ask again. Prove it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

97. There are fewer clunkers on the market. Price should increase as a result.

It's Econ 101.

Accept it, don't, whatever.

[Gold Metal Flake]

108. The market will be affected by a reduction of 0.27%.

Many of which otherwise might not have entered the used car market for years. Wow. That's some Laffer-quality economics you got there! :rofl:

[Dreamer Tatum]

110. You're using misleading, bullshit numbers

Which is appropriate for someone of your clear intellectual makeup.

[Warren Stupidity]

116. Fine. Provide the 'real numbers'.

I'll wait.

[Dreamer Tatum]

154. The counterclaim is that every car in the US is currently on the market

Prove THAT.

[Warren Stupidity]

160. no that isn't the counter claim. provide the numbers.

My claim is that those 700,000 cars are around 0.27% of the total number of cars in this country and that it is unlikely that a change in the status of such a minor portion of the entire stock of cars potentially available to the used car market has made a difference to that market.

Some unknown number of those 250,000,000 cars, which include that 700,000, are available to the used car market. The proportion of the total that is available is unknown. The difference, if any, in the proportion of those 700,000 that would have been available is unknown. The normal inventory of used cars is unknown. Nobody has even provided data that demonstrates that the current inventory is either higher or lower than normal, let alone correlated that change, if it exists, to the CFC program. You need to fill in all the unknowns to substantiate your claim. Go for it. Provide the real numbers. Demonstrate that the proportion of those 700,000 cars that represent cars that would have gone into the used car inventory is substantial enough to have had an effect on the used car market. Demonstrate that there actually has been an effect on the used car inventory that could even possibly correlate to the CFC program. I'll wait.

[DainBramaged]

165. Do you know where to find the numbers?

[Warren Stupidity]

180. No. But I am not making or supporting the unsubstantiated

claim of the OP. I and others have merely pointed out the fact that these 700,000 cars are a very small part of the entire car stock. It is up to those claiming that removing these cars from the stock has caused a rise in used prices to provide the data that substantiates their claim. So far, all they have is insults and bluster and assertions that it must be so.

[DainBramaged]

182. You are correct in your analysis

taking the junkers out of the equation has not increased used car prices. What HAS is the lack of quality trade-ins with people pulling back on buying new cars, the increase of sales of used cars because they are way more affordable than new, and the drying up of fleet (rental) returns and lease returns from Ford and GM as they have pulled back on the market over he past two years. They could not sustain the losses they have incurred by guessing so wrong on the residual values of the lease and fleet returns.

[Gold Metal Flake]

122. Fine. Provide the 'real numbers'.

As I keep asking you to and you keep refusing to do. I see you are stepping up the insults. That's because you can't back up your assertions. Poor baby.

[Warren Stupidity]

81. "if a substantial number"

try 0.27% of the potential used cars. Is that substantial? No it is noise. This theory that CFC is hurting the used car market is bullshit. Prove it. Prove that these 700,000 or so cars have affected the used car market. Produce the data.

[Dreamer Tatum]

96. Sigh. Are ALL cars in the US on sale at ALL times?

I don't think so.

It's supply and demand. It's pretty basic. Accept it or don't...I don't care.

[Warren Stupidity]

104. Sigh, were ALL clunkers in the US on sale at ALL times?

I don't think so. You cannot demonstrate how many of these clunkers would be on the market RIGHT NOW or in the NEAR FUTURE. The best you can do is claim that they were potential entries into the used car market, as are some huge number of those 250,000,000 total US cars. So you have no data that demonstrates that these cars represent any significant portion of the used car market. You just keep claiming it is so. Why?

[DainBramaged]

164. Buy-here, pay-here the last resort of the credit unworthy and poor

so many people here are clueless, they are just looking for a reason to be pissed.

[Zynx]

175. Every policy has negative consequences. Deal with it.

Life's not some Utopian fantasy.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. This is so irretrievably stupid that only a true Obama hater would even entertain it

A deeply moronic argument.

[Gold Metal Flake]

21. Did you see this?

Ronnie Watkins, a Ford dealer in Gadsden, said he told his car buyers not to even attend a recent auto auction for used cars because prices have gone up.

“I bought 20 Ford Fusions from a wholesaler about three weeks ago,” Watkins said. “This car has now gone up over $1,000.”

Twenty Ford Fusions. A recent model in production since only 2006 and not eligible for CARS. Are poor people buying Fusions? A car selling typically for $5K or more? Over, say, a Focus in production since 2000 and not eligible for CARS and selling in the sub-$3k area? No, I don't think so.

So, the used wholesale market is trying to gouge the used retail market and the used retail market is not buying so the used wholesale market will come into a glut and prices will go down. OR, used car dealers lying because used car dealers are liars and hate the black man in the White House.

[Horse with no Name]

25. I have a 1993 Toyota Corolla that didn't qualify for the CFC

These people are such liars.

[SoCalDem]

99. Even my husband's 1988 Dodge D-50 did not qualify

they "enhanced" the MPG rating just enough so that it did not make the cut..and it's a P.O.S. truck that we would have parted with..but it gets 23+ mpg, so he still drives it occasionally:)

[SemiCharmedQuark]

149. Neither my nor my husband's car qualified.

I drive a '96 Toyota Camry that I bought second hand. My husband drives a 98 Pontiac Grand Prix that he bought from a friend. Neither of our cars qualified for CARS.

[redqueen]

19. LOL... riiiight...

[Horse with no Name]

22. And we are supposed to believe that all of the sudden

these bloodsuckers CARE about the poor?
No, they just simply care about bashing a successful program and trying to make more money out of it.
I have read in more than one place that many of these dealers haven't destroyed the engines yet because "they don't trust that they will get their money":eyes:
It's not that at all. They are holding on to them and WHEN they get their money, their next whinefest is going to be about destroying perfectly good cars that they could sell to the poor.
They just want MORE money...and judging by the caving this administration has done to their whining, these cars most likely will end up back out on the road.

On edit:
I wish CONgre$$ had the foresight to make them send verification of the destroyed cars before they fund these criminals.

[snooper2]

27. Fucking stupid article...

plenty of junkers out there if you want to buy one. Last time I checked a Ford Fusion wasn't the hottest thing on the lot at Pedro's auto sales down the street. :rofl: I think the 85' Chevy trunk is...

[Dreamer Tatum]

30. Mistrust must be easier to apply than common sense

When you trade a used car for a new one, and the used car is taken away, never to be seen again, the market for that used car will bear the new relative scarcity in the price. Lots of people rely on the secondary market for older used cars to provide their transportation.

The object of CARS was to get inefficient vehicles off the road. That causes pain to people who can only afford inefficient vehicles.

[Gold Metal Flake]

45. Please provide proof that the inventory of used but efficient vehicles has been curtailed.

Suddenly, over the past 60 days. Also, please provide proof that people who can only afford used cars primarily purchase inefficient vehicles.

Again, I'll wait.

[Dreamer Tatum]

50. Used but efficient probably hasn't been curtailed.

Used but inefficient, on the other hand, has been curtailed. We know this because they're being compacted as
we speak.

I never said that people who can only afford used cars purchase inefficient vehicles.

I am stating (because it is a fact) that the stock of used cars that would typically be sold by private sellers
to private buyers (when the potential sellers desire a new car) is now diminished by CARS and the compacting
policy.

[Gold Metal Flake]

60. What compacting policy?

There is an engine destruction requirement. The rest of the car can go wherever they want to seel it. That means more used parts in the used parts market. People who spend a lot of time fixing old daily driver cars, like myself, have more parts. As for cars that get a combined mileage of 19 or better, they are still in the market.


I still see no proof of your assertions. Some numbers with real sources other than used car dealers would be nice. Here is a question: How many cars are in the used car market vs. how many useful cars were removed by the CARS program? Lets get a ratio.

[yodoobo]

69. The program, by design removed 690,000 -inefficent cars- from the market

that is by design and is a major goal of the program. Get those gas guzzlers off the road.

In fact, if a dealer doesn't destroy the car, they are subject to severe penalties.

[Gold Metal Flake]

95. You did not answer the question.

Did you read the rules? I did. I know the details. You do not.

[yodoobo]

177. You've mistaken me for someone else

You didn't ask me a question. In fact, I don't think we've ever exchanged messages.

In any event, may I suggest toning down the hostility? We're all friends here

Second, take a look at usernames in the posts.

Third, even if you did ask me a question, as a rule I never let someone else interrogate me. I answer and respond as I see fit. Sometimes I ignore questions that have no legitimate purpose i.e. "do you still beat your wife". In any event, I don't know what you question your are referring to even after looking at the thread again.

With that out of the way,

There seems to be some confusion over what this program was intended to do. It was intended to remove gas guzzling vehicle from the road and marketplace and boost new car sales.

It has succeeded marvelously.

Does this success obey the laws of supply and demand? Of course it does, all barter or exchange of goods does.

Cheers! :toast:

[snooper2]

75. We found 824 used listings within 500 miles of Los Angeles,

Used Cars | Any Body Style | Any Make, Any Model | 1981 - 2010 | $1,000 - $2,000 | All Sellers


See the search criteria...$1,000 to $2,000...what you looking for? sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshhh :eyes: :eyes:



http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=260172021&dealer_id=63962223&car_year=1989&rdm=1252092714008&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=used&distance=500&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=1000&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=90012&advanced=&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=2000&cardist=9&standard=false&rdpage=thumb

Used 1989 Dodge Ram Van B250 $2000
A nice van maybe?

A little honda maybe?



Used 1995 Honda Civic DX Coupe $1,995

[Gold Metal Flake]

89. And then search Craigslist. Then Ebay. Then the Recycler.

Penny Saver. The various used car ad magazines inthe stands at grocery stores, convenience stores and restaurants. Then the newspapers. Then just cruise the neighborhoods and look for for sale signs.

[Dreamer Tatum]

98. Did you capture data before, too?

Do you have an acceptable panel for either of us to do a full econometric study?

I'm just suggesting something is true.


I suspect that you are more sure of everything (in the world) than I am sure of anything.

[Gold Metal Flake]

109. Start answering my questions before demanding stats from others.

Lets see what you can do with 0.27% of inventory.

[Dreamer Tatum]

112. So you insist that all cars in the US are comparable and are on sale at all times.

Because that makes your argument look better.

Wow, heavy thinking.

It's supply and demand. It's pretty simple. Maybe if you pretended that it was a news story on Olbermann? Would that help you accept basic supply and demand?

[Gold Metal Flake]

123. You need to calm down.

You have entered the "throw up a buch of crap and hope some sticks" phase of a losing argument. Olbermann? WTF?

You have not quantified either the supply of the demand. Lets see your numbers and their sources. Otherwise your retorts are impotent.

[Zynx]

176. Every economic decision has negative ramifications of some kind.

Just suck it up and deal with that fact. Otherwise you will sit there like a libertarian and advocate doing nothing.

[Lyric]

32. Believe it or not, if devices like the Kindle catch on, you'll see the same effect

with books.

Poor people buy used books more often than wealthy people, but if technology like the Kindle catches on, there will be fewer used books available for poor people to buy. Combine that with the fact that companies like Amazon can remotely access your Kindle the moment you turn it on and delete books without your consent or permission, and that's a pretty scary thing.

So what's more important to our society in the long-term? Cars or access to books? I will NEVER buy a Kindle, or anything even remotely like it. I wouldn't be where I am today without plenty of access to used books when I was a poor kid growing up in a trailer park. Public libraries just aren't good enough when your family doesn't own a car and the buses stop running at 5:30. I thank my lucky stars every day for the boxes of assorted used books that my parents would get for me from the Salvation Army or Goodwill whenever they happened to have a ride available.

/WVU English and Creative Writing sophomore, 3.7 GPA, thrice published, five-time award winner. Yeah.

[Dreamer Tatum]

33. Wisely put nt

[GaYellowDawg]

36. That is complete bullshit.

I worked for one month as a car salesman and quit because what I saw going on in that dealership made me sick. Car dealerships make their money on used cars. They completely screw people over on the trade-in, do just enough cosmetic and engine work on the used car to get someone to buy it, and then sell it at a really inflated cost. This isn't hurting "poor people." It's hurting the profit margin of the car dealerships. There are fewer shit cars to dick people over with.

[Dreamer Tatum]

37. You're assuming that all used cars are sold by dealers.

That is incorrect.

[Doctor_J]

47. right wing BULLSHIT onslaught

Another lie that will soon become truth because of hate radio and Fox "News"

[Dreamer Tatum]

51. Um

What?

Huh?

What is right wing about this? I'm not seeing it.

[JonQ]

71. Basic economics

supply and demand. If the supply goes down while the demand remains the same the price will increase.

This was predicted by many people before the program was initiated, so I don't see why there is such surprise or anger over this conclusion.

[Warren Stupidity]

76. See way up thread repeatedly

many of these cars were NOT ON THE MARKET before CFC. The best that can be said is that some of these cars, an unknown number of them, were removed from the market. Until somebody produces actual data to substantiate the OP claim, it remains an exercise in bullshit economics.

How much of the supply went down? :shrug:

How much of the demand also went down? :shrug:


Bullshit.

[JonQ]

84. People buying new cars

were likely to have bought them regardless of the clunkers program. It may have changed the time and the type, but not the overall trend (the incentive was not enough to compel people who had no intention of getting a new car to get one).

So yeah, it has affected the supply of used cars available.

Q: How do you destroy 700,000 or so cars that would not otherwise have been destroyed and not affect the supply?
A: you can't.

[Warren Stupidity]

94. the incentive was not enough to compel people who had no intention of getting a new car to get one

Actually that is exactly what it did: it revived what had been a very depressed new car market. The incentive was in fact enough to convince people to not repair that old car and instead buy a new car.

Q. what part of the potential used car market did 700,000 cars represent?
A. 0.27%

[JonQ]

178. If you were to convince everyone who was planning on buying a new car this year

to buy them in one month, instead of spread out over 12, for that one month wouldn't it look like the car industry is doing amazing? Car sales would increase about 12x.

And if that's all you considered then you have a success.

But what about the other 11 months? Would you expect sales to increase or decrease?

If we spent billions to get people to buy more cars at one particular time, with an ensuing slump in sales for the rest of the year (which dealerships are already starting to see) then it was wasted money. For most people buying cars isn't a friviolous decision, come to lightly. It was planned out well in advance. So while this may have hurried their decision, it was unlikely to have made that decision for them entirely. At least for those that a few thousand looks like a lot of money. I suppose to a billionaire buying a car may be an easy, off the cuff decision. But that wasn't really the target of this.

[Dreamer Tatum]

114. Seriously, I owe you many beers. Well said. nt

[Zynx]

172. By a very marginal amount. There are a lot of used cars out there.

600,000 is a rounding error.

[jpak]

48. More Stupid Teabagger myth-building...

RON PAUL SUCKS!!!1111

just sayin'

:evilgrin:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

49. Ummm....

A 2006 DOT survey showed more than 250 MILLION registered passenger vehicles in the United States. So the Cash for Clunkers program took a about two one-thousandths of the total vehicle fleet off the road.

Two one-thousandths.

Any other utterly moronic complaints you care to register?

[Gold Metal Flake]

64. +1

[Warren Stupidity]

77. +250,000,000

[bighart]

59. Whether you agree or disagree with OP,

the fact this will end up raising the cost of used cars. Whether the price increases are manufactured or a legitimate
consequence of the number of used car that will not show up in the market is the only point that remains to be discussed.

[Dreamer Tatum]

63. Thank you

That's the one and only point.

[Gold Metal Flake]

66. Perhaps the extra used parts in the junkyards will slow the sales of used cars...

by allowing people to make their own repairs more cheaply.

I mean, as long as we are making stuff up...

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. Yes. That would be a good example of making stuff up.

The junkers must be crushed within 6 months. Not sufficient time for the market to remove useful bits.

[Gold Metal Flake]

120. Have you ever been to a junk yard?

Cars are well picked in three months. I visit the local yars regularly. You, obviously, do not.

Making stuff up indeed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. The pretense of being well informed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6C_m5GoRbo

the economics of the situation forces almost all these cars to the shredder immediately.

[Gold Metal Flake]

133. Bullshit.

"Almost all." Prove that. The dealer at the 1:09 clearly ssays the car he was writing on was going to a salvage yard. Not a shredder. People in the business do not usually conflate the terms, since they usually know the people involved. As a dealer, you decide who gets the cars.

"The economics of the situation" Bullshit.

[beevul]

134. Actually...

Most of the auto recycling yards I have been to (in 4 states) and the one I worked at for a time, had the same vehicles over a time far more than 3 months. Also, I have been iether involved or associated closely with those involved with auto recycling all my life, so I'm not blowing smoke here. The people I know have said nothing but negative about it, from a recyclers standpoint, and tell me that the people they talk to say just the same, with very few exceptions.

Furthermore, THE main moneymaker for auto salvage yards is the engine - you know - the one that was essentially poured full of "liquid glass" and destroyed as part of the program. I had an opportunity a week or so ago, while at one salvage yard to read a publication that is FOR salvage yards "auto recyclers monthly" (not the real name, but thats what it was in essence) , and in reading it, nothing good was said about the program regarding how it effects recyclers. Also it was mentioned that in most markets it takes about 9 months to sell the parts off a vehicle to the point where crushing it makes sense (unless you're one of the few yards that completely strip and inventory everything almost as soon as a vehicle comes in).

I also had an anecdote told to me by the parts counter guy about a fella that came in looking for tires for his truck, because he wanted to take the brand new set of tires off before he turned his truck in to the program.

This truck was a MINT condition chevrolet pickup. Spotless interior, paint, perfect runner, no dents no rust, probably a 5000 dollar vehicle in the private market, and a goldmine if it had ever made it to the salvage yard.

I am sure it is not the only vehicle like it, that was essentially destroyed and removed from circulation by the program.

Now, certainly, some salvage yards strip vehicles, inventory the parts, and crush regularly, but lets be clear - yards that run like those, ARE in a clear minority, of salvage yards as a whole.

And before anyone jumps on the "its a gas guzzling pick-up" bandwagon, in MANY places in America, you'll see more pick up trucks than cars. Rural and agricultural areas are chock full of them, and in those places a prius would neither fit the need or survive.

I drive a suzuki swift and a small pick-up truck, FWIW, and I am um...rebuilding a couple chevy s-10s...and I saw on the cover of the previously mentioned publication a crushed s-10 that I could have really used the parts off of...I about cried.


It just isn't as clear cut as some posters in this thread would like it to be.

Lots of folks were hurt by the program.

Acceptable collateral damage?

[lumberjack_jeff]

137. The big myth is that "the auto industry" is one thing.

The auto industry also includes those who are harmed by the arbitrary destruction of perfectly serviceable vehicles.

This program was akin to recycling plastic jugs with the milk still in them.

[beevul]

142. Yeah. To all of that.

As I said to that poster, I have been involved personally, both at the dealer level in my youth (I have been to GM parts training school) and at the junk yard even earlier in my youth - I pulled a ton of parts for folks - and have beenh closely associated with those that have - my two best friends in life - one a career parts counbter guy, the other in the auto recycling business for over 20 years. And thats not including the parts I have pulled for project cars such as chevelles - had 5 so far, or my s-trucks - one an all wheel drive v-8-ed cyclone clone, the other an s-10 4 wheel drive v8-ed, and used parts for the 40-ish drivers I have had over the years.

One has to have insight beyond "I have been to a junk yard several times" about theauto industry to really understand who this program hurt and why.

People claiming it didn't hurt anyone are simply saying they don't have that insight.

[Gold Metal Flake]

140. Few yards in LA have cars for 9 months.

Yup, I notice. The yard up in Lancaster, sure. I'm counting on it for tomorrow. If those Midgets are not still there it will be a wasted trip. But the vehicles in Pick Your Part and You Pick Parts, both in Sunland, do not last but a few months. They are stripped of all sorts of parts including body parts. In these yards engines are usually $150, and about half of them sell. People often just take heads or manifolds. Carburetors and distributors are the quickest things to go. I guess it's a different market here than where you are.

Not sure why someone would turn in a vehicle that they could sell for more in the private market. Does not make sense. Perhaps just a dumbass. Or maybe the guy at the counter was full of shit. I can't tell you how many "mint" rags I have seen over the years.

Still looking for some real evidence of the "collateral damage".

[beevul]

144. Not all markets are they same, obviously.

But, as someone thats been to yards in Southern California, Arizona, Minnesota (most yards in the seven county metro area, and many many outstate), Wisconsin, North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah, I can tell yoiu that the yards I have seen first hand (I am talking about probably four, maybe five hundred auto salvage yards here) were mostly of the "we crush when we crush" variety, rather than the "we strip and inventory and crush monthly" variety. No, thats not all of America, however thats a pretty large sample size, imo.


As far as evidence?

As someone whos 2 best friends his entire life have been involved in the auto parts business - one a parts manager at a dealership and a classic auto enthusiast, and the other runs an auto recycler, started out at the bottom pulling parts years ago and worked his way up to now running the outfit...I'm told by both that this program hurt people.

And I believe them.

No thats not evidence, but its enough for me.

Would that be enough for you if they were your friends telling it to you?

[Warren Stupidity]

78. not a fact, an assertion of opinion

see just up a bit. 250,000,000 registered cars. 690,114 CFC deals. You do the math. Oh never mind I'll do the math. The CFC cars represented 0.2760456% of cars.

So what exactly is the effect on the used car market of removing 0.27% of the potential used cars from the market?

I'll give you a hint: the effect cannot be measured. The effect is noise.

[bighart]

86. you as well as the previous reply seem to be missing my point.

I am very confident that used car prices will go up as a result of the clunkers program. I am in no way saying that the increases will be legitimate, only that I believe they will occur. If you don't think that car dealerships, and specifically dealers that specialize in used cars, will take advantage of this then you have more faith in them to be fair with consumers than I do.

[Warren Stupidity]

88. There is nothing to take advantage of.

As there is no shortage of used cars. So any attempt to artificially inflate used car prices is doomed. However yours is not the argument made by the OP, which is the claim that 700,000 or so clunkers removed from the potential used car market was going to cause a shortage of used cars. That claim is bullshit.

[bighart]

100. Dealerships are already floating the idea that the used car supply

has been negatively impacted by the clunkers program. How long do you think that will take to translate to higher prices for used cars on the lots? If the dealers are also unhappy with the speed they are being paid from by the government and see a way to boost their cash flow it also gives them additional incentive to raise prices on used cars.

[jmowreader]

73. What hurts the poor is Buy Here Pay Here

Today's exercise: Go to a BHPH lot and look at the cars there. The vast majority of these lots just post the down payment in the cars' windows. To get the price of the car, you have to go in and ask.

Exercise no. 2: Visit two BHPH lots with similar cars. When you go to the first one, go in dressed like shit with old shoes on, hair fucked up, women wear no makeup and either mismatched or no jewelry, and price a car. Then dress well and go to the second one. I guarantee the price of the first car will be a lot higher than the second one--because the BHPH guy will decide you're more creditworthy if you look presentable, and in those places (whose primary business is financing and insurance, and only carry cars because no one will give them money for nothing) creditworthiness equals price.

These guys don't give a shit about the poor, and I know this because if they did they wouldn't be charging 26.9 percent interest. You know the rebuttal: "We have to set interest rates in line with risk." Well...shit, man, if the customer's that fucking risky why are you loaning him $7500 to buy a car in the first place?

[quaker bill]

92. if you really want thousands off

the price, tell them you have cash. I have done this, it works like a charm no matter how you are dressed.

[jmowreader]

105. These days, I don't think car dealers really WANT a cash customer

A cash customer means no interest payments in the case of BHPH, and no incentives from lenders on a non-BHPH lot. Check it out: two guys walk into a car dealer. They both choose $5000 cars. Guy A pays cash. The lot makes $5000 from him. Guy B finances the whole thing for three years at 12 percent interest--which is very, very low in this era. The lot makes $5978.52 from Guy B. At the end of the deal, Guy B brought in about a thousand dollars more business than Guy A. Who do you think is going to get better service? It's not the guy with the cold hard cash, not now it ain't.

If I was a car dealer, the only reason I might want a cash customer occasionally is for that extra quick burst of money which I can use to either pay down the floorplan on another car, or to buy a car which I could sell to a credit customer. A steady diet of cash customers would kill my business.

[JonQ]

74. Unsurprising and inevitable

and one of the reasons to oppose this program.

Others include the probability that it didn't actually increase sales that much, simply moved them all to one point in the year. It burdened people least able to afford it with new monthly car payments in a bleak economy and in many cases may have actually increased pollution as it takes a lot of energy to produce a new car, that is not offset by a few more miles per gallon.

Nice thought, but I think history will remember it as an unnecessary expense at a time when we already have enough debt to go around.

[B Calm]

82. So is it time for me to sell my Auto Zone stocks?

[jmowreader]

107. Yes. Change to Pep Boys stocks

Auto Zone's major business is selling repair parts, but Pep Boys has transitioned into a "accessories and lifestyles" store--they sell lots more aftermarket crap to hang on a running car than they do parts to fix broken ones. Last time I went in there, they had gas grills, minibikes, fake Segways, more cordless power tools than you could shake a stick at...but they were out of the fuel hose I needed.

[Greyhound]

85. "Nobody could have predicted..."

Oh wait, we did.

Oh well, fuck the poor, they don't matter anyway.

[flvegan]

90. Wait a minute. The auto-parts market?

It seems that we just put 690,000 (now inoperable) cars into that segment. Sure, the engine blocks and heads might be shot, but the rest of the car will be as it was when it was traded in.

[Gold Metal Flake]

101. I addressed that above, and you are correct.

I have posted this many times since this program started. The rules state that the car must be scrapped. Sending it to a You Pull It parts yard fulfills that requirement. And then people who work on cars like you and me will crawl over it harvesting parts. This allowing older cars to remain on the road so we don't have to buy another one.

Cheesus Cracker but we got a lot of non-car people mentally masturbating into this thread.

[beevul]

138. One question, "car person" ...

First of all, how attractive are cars to a recycling yard when they are guaranteed to have a an engine that has NO salvagable parts?

"I have posted this many times since this program started. The rules state that the car must be scrapped. Sending it to a You Pull It parts yard fulfills that requirement."

The rules also state that the vehicle MUST be shredded within 90 days, which is far not enough time for the great majority of recycling yards to recycle a majority of parts off a given vehicle, UNLESS they are one of the few recycling yards that strip and inventory - which a "You Pull It" clearly wouldn't do, except maybe with engines and/or transmissions - and half that equation is already out the window.


Seems to me you need to know better what you are talking about yourself, before denigrating others as "non car people".

[Gold Metal Flake]

141. Well, non car person...

As I stated elsewhere in this thread, cars in the LA self serve yards do not last more than a few months. 90 days is long enough. Yards like You Pick Parts in Sunland have their own crusher so it's a one-stop shop.

I'm not sure you are aware of this, but cars have more parts on them than just the engine. :rofl: Nice try though.

[beevul]

145. Sure.

"I'm not sure you are aware of this, but cars have more parts on them than just the engine."

Spoken like someone seeing things from the consumer perspective. Not a bad thing, I see them that way too, HOWEVER...

How many of the cars in your local "you pull it" came from the program?

Go ask.

I think you'll be quite surprised at the answer.

Then ask why so few.


Hint: Auto salvage yards don't like to pay much for cars with engines that have NO servicable parts, and the price of steel is quite high right now, and has been since before the program started.

[flvegan]

143. Um, that's 180 days.

599.401 says that the car has to be shredded or crushed within 180 days, but they can sell any part of the car except for the drivetrain.

Outside of interior parts (seats, dash, gauges, etc) and exterior parts (fenders, hood, wheels, suspension, etc) and engine "components" (radiator, alternator, a/c parts, etc) there's quite a bit of stuff that can be stripped out of a car and quite a bit of cash to be made by them.

[beevul]

147. Correct.

I typed that wrong...however...

Look at the price of steel, versus what a car with an engine with no servicable parts might go far on the salvage market, and you will have the answer to this question:

Why did so many of the "clunkers" go directly to steel recycling, and not to auto parts recycling?

Sure those parts are servicable, even sellable, but that ignores how the market works, both in steel recycling, and in used parts recycling.

[flvegan]

156. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I might well be.

I'm not terribly familiar with steel recycling. The Google tells me that recycled scrap steel is between $250 and $318 per ton. Is that correct? If so, a junkyard will get that for a hood in many cases, and definitely for the hood and a pair of fenders or what equates to 150 lbs or so.

It would make sense to strip the car out and sell the frame (front clip back) to recycle. At least to me.

[beevul]

169. You are close, but one step farther than you should be.

A dealership has a choice:

Sell x brand clunker with permanently disabled engine to a an automobile recycling yard at the reduced rate of y (because with a disabled engine its worth less to them),

Or

Sell The entire vehicle DIRECTLY to the steel recycler.

Example of just one Mitigating circumstance:

Rust and dent free sheet metal on clunkers is likely few and far between, other than LATE model stuff, and even then...

Most rusty vehicles for example, have just the mechanicals and the interior parts (the last stuff that sells usually) to offer to an auto recycler, but have the whole enchilada to offer to a steel recycler.

So a rusty and/or dented gas guzzling 4600 pound lincoln with a destroyed engine for example, is worth 500-700 dollars give or take in scrap steel (ballpark) whereas an auto recycler might pay 150-200 for it IF it runs AND has a good battery - were talking clunkers here not late model repairables.

It never makes it to the recycling yard to begin with. It goes strait to scrap steel.

That might not exactly reflect the real world numbers in every market, but thats the principal.

The only exceptions, are the auto salvage yards that are really auto dismantelers, and completely strip and inventory a vehicle after say 30 days at most - which are a tiny percentage of all auto recyclers. And even then, they too lose out on the engine, and they're plenty choosy on make/model/shape, and whether they have plenty of that inventoried or not.

Thats not to say ALL the clunkers in the program went to scrap steel before being recycled, but people in the know, whos word I trust
tell me that the majority of them did.

[bobbolink]

93. Thank you for understanding the real result of some of these proposals.

So few understand how poor folk are affected.

Or care.

There ought to be a policy of vetting every proposal for how 'the least of these' will be affected.

That would be the true Spirit of the Democratic Party, as it used to exist.

[Gold Metal Flake]

102. Another one who ignored the entire thread just to post crap.

[Dreamer Tatum]

113. How outrageous, all of us silly people who disagree with you!

Imagine all the time we'd have to spare if we put aside critical thinking and instead asked what you think. God, we'd be so much SMARTER.

[Gold Metal Flake]

121. How pathetic, all of you silly people who have no proof.

Make a compelling argument with some proof or give up.

[bobbolink]

132. That's what happens to those who get all their talking points from reading chicken entrails.

:hi:

THEN they respond with incivility, and think that earns them extra points. :wtf:

Thanks! :hi:

[Dreamer Tatum]

111. I don't get why simple supply and demand eludes so many people

Well, I actually do: they're so thin-skinned and narrowminded that any thoughtful intuition applied to an Administration program that doesn't agree with politically correct convention wisdom is automatically wrong. Not just wrong, but RIGHT WING.

Of course, were CARS a Bush idea, and the same news article came out using the same empiricism, it would be an axe for them to swing.

It's getting easier to spot here all the time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

119. Recycling! Yay!

Let's recycle the plastic jugs with the milk still in 'em!

[Gold Metal Flake]

125. You are going to extremes to try to cover the fact that you have no proof.

You got nothing. Inventing conspiracies, outing subversives, making strange allusions to Olbermann, none of this will cover the fact that someone waaaaaay upthread hours ago said "prove it" and you wet your pants.

[Dreamer Tatum]

129. It's supply and demand

Acquire an intro to microeconomics text (and a dictionary for the hard words) and have a ball.

[Gold Metal Flake]

130. No proof.

Your post is empty.

[cascadiance]

103. We should help increase mass transit and bike access to them, and help raise their salaries

That would provide help in the right places.

We can't afford to just keep cars that pollute the environment more and more just because they are affordable when noone else wants them. Might be cheap for them, but their usage puts a bigger cost on the rest of society.

Now I think many people's salary needs to be raised so that we no longer have the wealth gap that we have now, that hopefully will help them afford cars and other more desirable transportation that doesn't have as high a cost to the environment and the rest of us.

As a part of taking out a whole segment of vehicles like this, it should have been planned to ensure most big areas had better and more timely access to mass transit too.

[rucky]

124. There are the same number of cars on the road before & after C4C. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. When Obama signs health care.

All you people are going to do is whine about the negative effects on the coroner industry.

[Gold Metal Flake]

135. Where will all of the spare parts come from?

The Mom & Pop used kidney businesses will be the ones hurt.

[Mr. Sparkle]

128. It will hurt the dealers more if they dont lower there prices. n/t

[Name removed]

146. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

139. Great, but everything is getting better right?

We are coming out of the recession right? NPR told me so this morning.

[spanone]

155. one man's ceiling is another man's floor

[noamnety]

159. What an odd thread.

People seem to be arguing that the impact of CARS was negligible because it's such a minuscule percentage of what's on the road ... while at the same time declaring the program to be a huge success because of the impact it had on reducing gas consumption.

I'd say you can't have it both ways. If the impact of trashing that number of cars is almost nothing, it stands to reason that the impact on our environment was almost nothing (which I believe to be true). We dumped a hell of a lot of money into a program to "feel good" about making a negligible change to consumption.

[Warren Stupidity]

162. 700,000 is a lot of new cars. It is not a lot of old cars.

See if you can figure out why.

[noamnety]

166. I was addressing the impact on the environment

not the (temporary) impact on new car sales. The impact on the environment was a key selling point, and that relates to the percentage of TOTAL cars on the road. If a quarter of one percent of the cars on the road have a gain of 7 mpg, and the other 99.73% are the same, that's not much impact at all considering how much tax money was dumped into the program.

[Zynx]

173. It was primarily an economic stimulus program.

It was a fairly efficient one at that. It was a fairly cheap price tag for having a big impact.

[moondust]

163. Don't forget the plight of clunker mechanics!

I heard a wingnut squealing about this a couple weeks ago.

It would probably be a good time for any mechanics that make a living fixing clunkers to upgrade their skills so they can work on the newer stuff like hybrids and electrics. Just a suggestion...

[DainBramaged]

167. It seems many are simply pissed their cars didn't qualify

Oh well. Maybe next time........

[scrinmaster]

168. Well, instead of the dealer selling those used cars, they've been destroyed.

Fewer cars on the market means the price will go up, or at the very least, there will be fewer cars to purchase.

[Anakin Skywalker]

171. Wait a Few Months, and the Prices Will

COME DOWN AGAIN! Jeez!

[newportdadde]

179. Sounds like dealers are ripping off on the used cards now just like they did on the new cars.

Ow sure your clunker is worth 4500! We will take that right off the sticker sir! The whole thing was a joke from the get go, both new and used.

My father has been looking for a different truck for the past 6 months, he qualified for the program but since dealers were just backing off the MSRP it was not a good deal. Could have gotten a better deal working off a cash deal before the program.

[DainBramaged]

183. Do you have any idea how much GROSS profit there is at sticker?

And as an example, if a car or truck lists for $35000, and the dealer makes $3000 or less at sticker, is that too much of a profit to allow them to stay in business?


You'l pay $5 for a gallon of milk the food store pays $2.25 for, but you will haggle till you are blue in the face over a car.