Someone please explain this to me.

[potone]

I watched the rerun of Steny Hoyer's town hall meeting on health care and when someone who represented health care workers said that "health care is a right, not a privilege," many people booed. I don't understand this. Of course as things are now, it is not treated as a right, but why isn't there agreement that it should be? I especially don't understand why the right-wing Christians don't see this as a moral imperative. If they are opposed to abortion, why aren't they opposed to their fellow citizens dying because they can't afford health insurance? Have we always been so heartless? Why do people seem to assume that health care is a zero sum game, and that if some people get care who couldn't get it previously, that means that other people are necessarily going to pay for that? Why are people so afraid of the public option? What is all this anger and hatred about? It seems utterly irrational to me and very mean-spirited. I just don't get it. :shrug:

[movonne]

1. Right wing Christians are not Christians...they are money hungry

bastards...

[Richard D]

2. What they are opposed to . . .

. . . is their selish un-Christian belief that they shouldn't pay anything for anyone else's benefit. Simple.

What they are really opposed to is a black president. True.

[uncle ray]

3. i don't think it is a right.

i do however think it is something that any civilized country would make every effort to provide for it's people, especially one that claims to be number one.

[mzteris]

7. Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness -

kinda hard when you're dying or so sick you can't work, or pay so many medical bills you have to declare bankruptcy . . .

[Beer on a stick]

27. That's from the DOI, and the DOI isn't a legal document.

[mzteris]

28. picky picky picky - how 'bout this, then?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Seems to me like health care would come under "promote the general Welfare".

edit to add so's you don't get confuzzled:

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

[blondeatlast]

4. They aren't Christians, they are latter-day Pharisees.

And the New Testament was not kind to them...

[SalmonChantedEvening]

18. That is precisely who they are.

:fistbump:

[RDANGELO]

5. It's not about logic or fairness or reason.

It's about culture, race and tribalism.

[valerief]

6. They are not rational. They have damaged right temporal lobes.

Years of bad social conditioning (poor education, magic-thinking religion) have underused and ultimately damaged much of their brains. They react to buzzwords, like pet dogs.

[frebrd]

8. Very simple - the insurance and "healthcare" industries.......

are stirring up the mud at the bottom of the pond, and the right-wing, knuckle-dragging mouth breathers are lapping up the crap they're being fed, since they're incapable of thinking for themselves.

:(

[undeterred]

9. They don't care if pregnant women have health insurance

or access to good prenatal care. Yet they say they care about the life of the unborn child. Don't even try to make sense of such nonsense.

[ThomWV]

10. It is not a right and it can never be a right because it demands participation by another

A right can only be held by an individual and no right can demand performance by another person; its why the state has no rights, only authorities.

Oh, and despite Republican nonsense just because something is not mentioned in the Constitution does not mean that it is unconstitutional to do it - if that were so we would not have either the Interstate Highway system or Social Security nor would we have put a man on the moon.

[Toucano]

15. 9th & 10th Amendments

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

They've never heard of this, I guess. Yes they really want us to return to the ideals of the founders.

[daleo]

23. Read John Rawls sometime

He makes quite a good case for "positive rights" as being fundamental for real justice.

[kenny blankenship]

11. Calvinism. Your RW Xtians are Xtians but like most of the people who created our insitutions

they are from a Calvinist background. Even Catholics in America are affected by Calvinist pessimism. It's in the water.

Calvinist Protestant doctrines differ from Catholicism in the weight they assign to concepts like Predestination and the (under)weighting they assign to "Good Works".

Early Catholic doctrine assuredly featured the idea that all humans were predestined to Hell and were saved by the grace of God. The initial act of disobedience by Adam and Eve damned all Humanity forever, but God will show mercy in certain cases. It comes from St. Augustine ca 400AD. But over time the Catholic Church softened this idea with the intercession of the priesthood. If you confess your sins, if you show remorse and do penance, you can be forgiven. If you do Good Works you can show your love and obedience to God and be forgiven your ration of Sin, even if it's above average. Just as importantly, when a priest tells you you are forgiven YOU ARE FORGIVEN. Protestants, particularly those afflicted by Calvinism, don't have that. We live in a different world altogther! You might say we live with one foot already in Hell. A priest or his corresponding official within a Protestant church can't tell you you are forgiven. You will never know, while you are alive, if you're forgiven. Of course people being people, they each tend to assume that they are saved, and it's their neighbor who is going to Hell.

What you DO know if you are a Calvinist is that most people - the vast majority - are no damned good, and they're going to Hell. The righteous are few and the wicked are many- and their underlying nature can never change. Protestant authorities are very clear about that. That being the case, charity for such people is a waste of effort and money, right? No matter what you do for them, the damned stay damned. In fact --nobody actually goes so far as to say this, but it's an obvious implication--it might even be rejecting the judgment of God to help people indiscriminately. God says most people are worthless sinners, no more than stuffing for Satan's bowels - but you disagree and want to help them ALL? Don't you fear blaspheming the judgment of Our Sweet Lord? For according to the doctrine of Predestination that divine judgment on each soul is IRREVERSIBLE. It has already been made, outside of what we call time. The damned are already the damned and the saved are already the saved. But how do you know who is damned and who is saved if a priest can't tell you? Calvin and his lieutenants agreed that the saved would probably be seen enjoying their divine favors while still alive. Rich people get a strong nod just for being rich. There is a presumption that Someone Upstairs is looking out for them. Doing Good Works while you're alive, which is something rich people can afford to do, may be an indication that you are among the Elect who are saved, but it doesn't by itself redeem you. In Calvinist protestantism, doing Good Works without faith is trying to BRIBE GOD into saving you, and is wicked. Faith alone saves you. Nothing you can do can undo your sinful damned nature if God has turned his face from you, and furthermore, nothing you can do can MERIT or trigger God's decision to save you from Hell. Either you receive the gift of Faith from God or you don't and then you go to Hell. By the same token you can be an utter shit all your life long, doing nothing for those in need, and still be saved by Faith. Being charitable will not bring you merit and get you into Heaven.

You can see how a culture strongly influenced by such religious values would tend not to leap onto things like universal healthcare, high quality education for all regardless of income, or other redistributionist measures.

[potone]

19. This surely is part of the answer.

I doubt, however, that it is all of it. There is a large Catholic community in the US, some of whom are very conservative, but I don't seem to hear the Catholic Church weighing in in support of this reform. That puzzles me. Perhaps I am doing the Catholic clergy an injustice, and they spoken out but the media does not cover that. To listen to cable television, you would think that Obama barely managed to get elected, instead of having won with a mandate for health care reform. Thank you for your thoughts on this issue.

[customerserviceguy]

12. Here's the way I understand it, as they feel about it

What other basic human needs/wants are a "right"? We have an entitlement program for food stamps, but that doesn't entitle anyone to caviar. We have Section 8 housing programs, but that doesn't entitle everyone to live in a luxurious home.

Most human needs/wants are privileges that we earn by working and by qualifying for, such as a driver's license. There are many levels of healthcare from a transplant for the liver you yourself ruined, to someone giving you an aspirin and telling you to "walk it off". Some clearly don't strike everyone as being absolutely necessary. When you get a government entity making those decisions, you start forcing other people to pay for the treatments on the list.

Not my thinking, but I've been around enough right wingers, and just plain flyover country folks to know how to articulate their point of view. You cannot win an argument with someone unless you are able to honestly know where they're coming from.

[izquierdista]

13. They are inhuman

According to the Universal Declaration of HUMAN Rights:

Article 25.

* (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
* (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

[Toucano]

16. +1

[lunatica]

14. They have contempt and fear of government especially since Reagan

They mistrust government in a big way. It's the 'them', the boogeyman who takes your money away in the form of taxes. Reagan's famous quote of the words that strike terror in American hearts, "Hello, I'm the government and I'm here to help."

They believe that if you give government too much power you're basically creating a dictatorship which will then pull the plug on gramma and put you in camps and forced labor and indoctrinate your children and force them into slave labor.

Oh! And take your God Given Guns away.

[potone]

20. Yes, I agree.

The demonization of government that started with Reagan has contributed greatly to the problem. I find it ironic though that they did not get upset over big government under Bush, who bankrupted the country and trashed the Constitution.

[lunatica]

25. That's because of the propaganda he catapulted

Starting with the lies to go to war with Iraq who had nothing whatsoever to do with the attacks on 9/11. But they refuse to even think about that. Bush gave them a couple of wars they could watch while fondling their guns. He also used uber patriotism whipped up to a frenzy for everything. And he was Born again Christian who God talked to.

[lame54]

17. Owning a gun is a right- having a bullet removed is a privilege

[noiretextatique]

22. +1

:applause:

[lame54]

24. Feel free to rec this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6465912&mesg_id=6465912

[noiretextatique]

33. done...great line, btw eom

[Cass]

21. Being opposed to health care reform is not a pro-life position.

These people are as phony as a $3 bill.

[asdjrocky]

26. United States of-

I've got mine now go fuck yourself.

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. How CAN health care be claimed as a "right", if becoming a doctor

costs a medical student or his/her family HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars at a minimum, forces that person who wants to become a doctor to work up to 80 hours a week as an intern, and take more than a decade to achieve?

So you say health care is a "right". How do we exercise that right? Do we FORCE the children of the rich to go to medical school, while FORCING their parents to pay for it? Do we FORCE internship and all it entails on them?

Becoming a doctor requires a commitment that starts in high school. It requires a commitment that few people can even imagine. It requires a full four years of science and biology in high school. Four years of math, including calculus as well, and let's not forget chemistry, shall we? To get into a good medical school, you not only have to TAKE those courses in high school, but you have to excel in those classes. I'd end this paragraph with a question: How many high schools today even offer the kind of science, math, chemistry, and physics classes that would foster a continuing education in the medical field? Bueller? Bueller?

So, you're lucky enough to live in an affluent neighborhood that has a high school that's up to snuff. Do we DEMAND, do we FORCE you to take those courses and excel in them, in order to prepare for the road ahead? Forget the binge drinking that is most college students' experience today. Forget spending spring break in Ft. Lauderdale, or Daytona, or Palm Springs, or South Padre Island. You've got some serious work to do. Time management will be either your angel, or your devil, and if you don't have a sense for it already, it will most definitely be your devil.

So now you've made it into college. Here is, at a minimum, what's in store for you:

•1 year of Biology with lab
•1 year of Inorganic Chemistry with lab
•1 year of Organic Chemistry with lab
•1 year of English
•Many schools require 1 year of calculus or college level math
•Some medical schools request a course in Biochemistry

Oh yeah, you had better finish those courses with a GPA of 3.5 or better, if you want to get into medical school.

Damn, I could go on for hours. My all-time best friend, the girl I grew up next door to and who was my childhood sweetheart, is now a cardiologist. She's still the same little girl who motivated me to crawl to the top of my swing set so I could talk to her over our backyard fence, but by the same token, she's different. She's still single. She told me once that she could only marry another doctor, because that's the only person who could understand the way the medical profession has consumed her life. She'll be 49 in December, and still hasn't met Mr. Right. Well, I told her that she met him a very long time ago, that he was once her next door neighbor, and she blew him off when she got into high school and her brain went into high gear. I think I still bear the bruise she left on my shoulder.

How do I exercise my "right" to health care, without first demanding that someone go through HELL and their life savings to be able to provide me with the opportunity to exercise that right?

Strange notion, that.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/becoming-a-doctor1.htm

[dgibby]

34. Personally, I think higher ed should be a right, too. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

35. But it isn't. So the question goes unanswered. n/t

[Control-Z]

30. it is about being better than. -eom

[windoe]

31. It is a simple minded as team sports. Not a molecule more complex.

Concepts don't matter, implied ethics don't matter, common respect apparently doesn't either. The left is now having an epiphany of just how totally resistant to information and reason human beings can become.

Our strategies have to be brought to their level of understanding--and any chance of a sane exchange has to happen when they are first calmed down. These people have to be calmed, and then oriented as to what is going on, if we have any chance at all. We have to meet them where they are, because they cannot meet us where we are. I risk sounding elitist or stuck up, but this is the reality.

[flaminbats]

32. Steny Hoyer kicks butt!!

I loved his response to the question "Will members of Congress have to accept the same healthcare options offered in the bill you vote for?"

YES!!!! I wish he was my Congressman :woohoo: