Charter schools are PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

[mzteris]

"Charter schools are public schools, so it makes little sense to pit one type of school against the other. We know there are excellent charter public schools and excellent traditional public schools. Likewise, there are charter and traditional public schools that fall short of expectations.

(NOW HERE's the REALLY IMPORTANT PART, PEOPLE):

Instead of setting up a false competition between charter and public schools, we should be focusing on what we can learn from high-performing schools, be they charter or traditional public. And we should concentrate on how charter and traditional public schools can collaborate to share best practices, so our students benefit from this joint expertise.

The bottom line is that a school’s governance structure does not magically produce better or worse results. Regardless of the type of school, what happens in the school and in the classroom matters most. That includes making sure that school employees have a strong voice in school operations, and have the ability to make improvements for the good of their students."

And who said this? The American Federation of Teachers.


edit: typo.. (ooooo so bad)

[mzteris]

1. Some Stats on Charter Public Schools

Among the most significant findings this year (June 2009):

* More than 1.4 million students now attend over 4,600 public charter schools in 40 states and the District of Columbia

* The student population has grown 11% and the number of schools has grown 8% since one year ago (2007-2008)

* 62% of public charter school students are non-white and 48% qualify for free and reduced price lunch (compared with 47% non-white and 45% free and reduced price lunch in all non-charter schools)

* While 56% of students attend charter schools in large cities, a growing percentage of students are enrolled in charter schools in rural areas (14% compared with 11% five years ago)

* Nearly 30% of students attend charter schools with non-traditional grade configurations, such as Kindergarten through 12th grade (compared with less than 7% of non-charter school students)

* Nationally, the average public charter school has been open 6.2 years

* As of the 2008-2009 academic year, 23% of charter schools have been open at least 10 years. Four years ago, only 7% of charter schools had been open more than 10 years

These last two statistics are particularly interesting. Much school reform literature suggests that it takes at least 7 to 10 years for school-wide reform efforts to make substantial changes in student performance, which is confirmed by the high-quality studies in the Alliance's Charter School Achievement: What We Know (2009). Consequently, as public charter schools get older and more experienced, we believe that public charter schools will get even better at providing high quality learning environments.

With the attention given to for-profit educational management organizations and non-profit charter management organizations, it is interesting to note that over three-quarters of public charter schools continue to be freestanding, or "mom and pop" schools.


Free-standing public charters: 77.4%

CMO: 12.0% - Charter managemet operations - NON profit networks of schools)

EMO: 11.8% Education management operations - FOR-Profit management companies


Gee - 11.8% are FOR PROFIT corporations - some whopping percentage, eh?

[salin]

6. In my state, charter schools can only be opened by not-for-profit entities

most of which were created for the sole purpose of opening /running the charter school. The laws surrounding charter schools vary greatly state by state.

[mzteris]

10. only ELEVEN PERCENT are "for-profit"

run EMO public charter schools.

Yeah, the corporatizing of public schools is running amok among Charter Public Schools.


Question - anyone know how many school-boards in this Country are dominated by the far right?

[Hannah Bell]

26. your rounding skills are off. we round *up* when the fraction is over 50%, not down.

anyone know how many traditional public schools are by private companies for profit?

answer = 0%.

[Hannah Bell]

23. "national alliance for charter schools" board member ashton = mccain donor:

http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neighbors.php?type=name&lname=Ashton&fname=Mashea


"Mashea previously served as the Executive Director for the New York Program and Senior Advisor for Charter School Policy for New Leaders for New Schools."

"New Leaders for New Schools" = front org to train charter school shills, brought to you by the same corporate interests as the Chicago school "reform":



Josh Bekenstein, Managing Director, Bain Capital, LLC

- Bain Capital: Mitt Romney = founding partner; one of the major funders of Renaissance 2010 (Chicago Charter Schools)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain_Capital


James A. Bell, Corporate President & Chief Financial Officer, The Boeing Company

- Boeing; military contractor; one of the major funders of Ren 2010.



John E. Deasy, Deputy Director, US Program, Education, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

- Gates Foundation: one of the major funders of Ren 2010 & the charter school/school "reform" movement


Domenic Ferrante, Managing Director, Bain Capital, LLC

- Bain: See above

etc.

http://www.nlns.org/BoardOfDirectors.jsp

[mzteris]

2. INFO on Charter Public schools that have been closed:

"Performance-based accountability is the hallmark of charter schools. Unlike conventional public schools that remain open year after year despite their inability to maintain strong operations or raise student achievement, charter schools close if they fail to perform according to their charter.

And while opponents claim that charter schools are not being held accountable or that only “responsible” charters should remain open, the data on closed charter schools across the states proves that the performance-based accountability inherent in the charter school concept is working—especially in states with strong and clear charter laws.

Of the over 5,250 charter schools that have ever opened, 657 have closed since 1992. (that's just over 12% - and as the process gets refined, it gets better.)

While reasons vary, 41 percent of the nation’s closed charter schools (that 12ish percent of all charters) were a result of financial deficiencies caused by either low student enrollment or inequitable funding. This figure should come as no surprise considering charter schools across the country are funded at only 61 percent of their conventional public school counterparts according to the 2008 Annual Survey of America’s Charter Schools.

An additional 27 percent (that 12ish percent of all charters) were closed for mismanagement. The data shows that ineffective schools first demonstrate the inability to remain financially viable or effectively operate well before there are signs that the school is struggling academically.

Therefore, only 14 percent (that 12ish percent of all charters) of the nation’s charters have been shut down for poor academic performance—meaning they reached a point at which meaningful measures could be used to close a school."


....

A little more info on those 12-ish percent thath closed:

About ten percent of the nation’s closed charter schools were closed for reasons that had nothing to do with the quality of the charter school, but everything to do with a hostile policy environment. Such cases, called “district” closures, are instances where local school boards or state entities have intentionally created problems that compromised the school’s ability to remain operationally sound. For a complete list of closed charter schools by state visit the National Charter School Online Directory at www.edreform.com/charter_directory/.

The largest number of closures have been in California (103), Arizona (96), and Florida (82) -- the three states with the largest numbers of public charter schools. No public charters have been closed in Hawaii, Iowa, Mississippi, Rhode Island, and


Charter schools can be closed for a number of reasons, and in this report, closures are broken down into eight general categories. The following explanations will help you to identify the reasons behind why charter schools close.

Academic: This applies to schools whose sponsors found them unable to meet the academic goals and performance targets set by the state or written in their charter.

District: Applies to schools that were closed because its school district sponsor had issues with the independence of the charter and chose to cut it from the budget, or decided to close it as a cost saving measure. Some of the schools became involved in long, arduous fights with the district and due to additional costs of these lawsuits, were forced to close. Final control of these charter schools’ existence ultimately was with the district.

Facilities: Applies to schools that were unable to contract for a viable facility and had to close or voluntarily gave up their charter. While it is the charter’s obligation to find a facility, the roadblocks created by zoning boards, school districts, funding shortages and even community opposition make up the bulk of facilities problems that result in a school closing.

Financial: Charters with budgetary problems resulting from involuntary causes, such as a lack of enrollment, insufficient funds, costs that exceeded projected revenues, etc. In most cases, these schools tried to become financially healthier, but for a variety of reasons, they could not sustain the institution. Many of these charters voluntarily returned their charter when the financial problems became too great.

Mismanagement: Closures under this heading were due to deliberate actions on the part of organizers or sponsors, such as misspending, failure to provide adequate programs, materials, etc., failure to adhere to the school’s charter, or an overall lack of accountability. There can also be extreme cases of mismanagement such as fraud or theft, but these cases are rare. Schools in this category could also be called “bad-apples.” These problems are generally uncovered quickly and charters are closed before mismanagement affects student learning.

Other/Unknown: A handful of charter schools close for reasons that do not fit into any of these categories, like schools that closed due to damage from Hurricane Katrina. Other school operators returned the charter with no explanation, and there are no recorded reasons for closure.


Oh - and one last, very interesting little tidbit:

This report finds that the absence of good data correlates to the strength of the state’s charter school law. For example, states like Iowa, Mississippi, Virginia and Wyoming have laws ranked either “D” or “F.” All authority for creating and managing charters in these states rests with local school boards. Therefore, there is no distinction between the resulting schools and their conventional district schools. Progress among these schools has not been tracked objectively, clearly or differentiated and any record of success is anecdotal at best.

edit - fix link: http://www.edreform.com/download/CER_2009_AR_Charter_Schools.pdf

[cleverusername]

11. Study my kid's school

My kid is in a public charter school and it's great. The school excludes all students with behavior problems and accepts only students capable of pre-AP/AP work. That's a distinct advantage. Once the applicants are screened, there's a lottery to get in. Parents are dying to get their kids in this school. It's smaller than the regular public schools so the kids get more individualized attention. The school focuses on academics. No sports, band, cheer leading, etc. There is a dance team,a lacrosse team, and various extracurricular clubs. The diversity represents the demographics of the community (not all white). Come study this school.

[mzteris]

15. I dislike the word "screened" -

it smacks of the "elitism" that so many use .

However, if it were say a school for musicians - a kid would need to be able to play. If it was for dancers, they would need to be able to dance. If it were for gymnasts, they were need to BE a gymnast!

After K and 1st grade at my son's Spanish immersion school, kids have to be able to read/write/speak/understand Spanish to be there. It wouldn't make sense otherwise, now would it?

So why is when a school is for those kids who ARE academically gifted, people start screaming elitism? I really don't get that part.

A very important point to make -

MOST PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS do not SCREEN. There is a mail-in application and all are opened after the final date to apply and then there is a lottery if there are more applications than openings (which is more and more frequent).


I have ALWAYS said that traditional school-board-run-public-schools need smaller classes, MUCH MUCH better pay, and better mentoring/training for new teachers, and the ability to use more innovation in the classroom. (Oh, and get rid of that teach-to-the-test mentality that seems to pervade them all these days.)

[salin]

17. in many states it is against the law to screen.

I agree per your suggestions for traditional public schools. I would also change up the role of district with a larger quasi district for purchasing/and delivery of some systems (like special ed coops that exist in many states), and smaller boards - closer to the schools. For small districts this would change little, except add a merged additional 'regional' district to handle purchasing (or maybe transportation issues) and some services (prof dev. is another that would lend well to be spread over more schools). For large urban districts with 50 - 100 or many more schools, this would create smaller entities that are closer to the schools being governed.

[tsuki]

35. In FL, charter schools cannot screen, but magnet schools can. nt

[mzteris]

37. interesting point. Thanks n/t

[MattBaggins]

113. We could "study" it if you told us the name?

So they won't take all those pesky kids with "behavioral problems". They get to cherry pick the smartest kids and leave the rest to rot? Sounds like a great idea.

Show me a school that does the opposite and only takes the "bad apples" and then talk to me.

[City of Mills]

155. One in my city does

It's set up to take kids who have dropped out of the public high school, as well as 'trouble' kids who have other issues which prevent them from attending normal high school.

http://www.lmacs.org/student/enrollment_policy.html

[demgurl]

211. The charter school, my boys attend, do not screen.

Anyone can apply and there is a lottery to see who is accepted. It is a public lottery held in our gym in front of all the hopeful parents. We do not screen.

I will tell you our local college screens. And, no, I do not think this is apple and oranges. I am looking to enroll my sons in 'early college'. You can attend high school at the local college and do high school courses in the morning and college courses in the afternoon. When you graduate from high school you can have your A.A. degree and they do not even charge you for any of that college.

To get into 'early college' you need 3 references, you need to submit a transcript of your grades and also a copy of your disciplinary record. You also need to write an essay explaining why you should be accepted.

If your references are not good, if your grades are not acceptable or you have had problems with discipline, you will not be accepted. No high school without cliques or bullies for you. No free college. No chance to have a college degree as you graduate high school. You are screened.

Our charter school does not screen.

[Hannah Bell]

3. "chart schools" = where sailors learn map-reading.

[woo me with science]

4. No, "chat schools" are where you learn to instant message. nt

[Hannah Bell]

9. & cat schools = obedience training for kitties.

[woo me with science]

22. No fair editing. nt

[mzteris]

24. why is that?

Have you never made a typo?

[woo me with science]

25. Because it was funnier the way it was. nt

[mzteris]

27. I'm not sure I get the joke, but then again

I have no idea what that particular poster is saying anyway as well they know. Evidently they just LOVE to snipe at any post I make. I think I musta pissed 'em off somewhere sometime. :shrug: Oh well, little minds and all that. . . not worth the bother. I just hope everyone recognizes a sockpuppet when they see one. :(

[woo me with science]

28. Oh, calm down.

Have a beer. :toast:

[mzteris]

30. - 'mmmmmmm - a wee bit early

but what the heck - it IS Saturday!

Oh damn - I forgot to go to the festival downtown today and I missed that Du'ers band! damn damn damn . . .

[Thothmes]

154. You know not what you speak of

it is call a chart not a map. That is what sailors use.

[Hannah Bell]

283. thus" "chart school."

[mzteris]

5. Demographics of Public Charter schools

From the NEA website:

Charter Schools
Definition

Charter schools are publicly funded elementary or secondary schools that have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools, in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each charter school's charter.

NEA believes that charter schools and other nontraditional public school options have the potential to facilitate education reforms and develop new and creative teaching methods that can be replicated in traditional public schools for the benefit of all children.


The demographics of charter schools
Who attends charter schools? The following chart shows the percentage of different kinds of students who attend charter schools compared to regular public schools.

Percentage of students attending (figures rounded)2

Black : Charter: 31 Traditional: 17

Hispanic: Charter: 22 Traditional 19

Native American/Alaska Natives: Charter: 2 Traditional 19 (location of charters have a lot to do with his demo)

Free/reduced Lunch: Charter: 49 Traditional: 42

IEPs: Charter: 11 Traditional: 13

ELLs: Charter: 12 Traditional: 11

IEPs: Students with Individualized Education Programs under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA)
ELLs: Students who are English Language Learners


Who teaches in charter schools?
Some 30 percent of charter school teachers are racial or ethnic minorities, compared to 17 percent who teach in regular public schools. Charter school teachers tend to be slightly younger than their counterparts in mainstream schools, but not by as much as the stereotype of the “young and idealistic” charter school teacher might suggest. The average age of charter school teachers is 38; for regular public school teachers the figure is 43.


“There is much to learn from charter school success stories as well as charter school failures. Charter schools have the potential to be incubators of promising educational practices that can be replicated in mainstream schools. The key is to identify what is working that can be sustained and reproduced on a broad scale so that as many students as possible can benefit. We need to create more supportive learning environments for educators and students alike in all of our public schools. This is an essential part of fulfilling NEA’s vision of a great public school for every student. NEA President Dennis Van Roekel http://www.nea.org/assets/docs/mf_PB17_CharterSchools.p...


damn those typos! What I get for trying to type too fast, I suppose. :shrug:

Oh - and make the demo chart more readable. . .

[AieinAristuein]

8. how are charters different then magnet schools?

[salin]

12. Magnet schools are governed by a school district

and operate as part of the district. Charter schools are individual organizations - with a governing board just for that school. School districts can open charter schools, but the charter school would operate as a separate autonomous entity from the district.

Different states dictate what entity is in charge of authorizing, and reviewing charter schools. Some places only districts and the state board of ed can authorize charter schools. In other states, universities meeting certain standards (such as having a school of education) can authorize charter schools.

[mzteris]

16. don't know if you saw this bit -

from the "Closed Charter schools" post -

"This report finds that the absence of good data correlates to the strength of the state’s charter school law. For example, states like Iowa, Mississippi, Virginia and Wyoming have laws ranked either “D” or “F.” All authority for creating and managing charters in these states rests with local school boards. Therefore, there is no distinction between the resulting schools and their conventional district schools. Progress among these schools has not been tracked objectively, clearly or differentiated and any record of success is anecdotal at best.


edit fix link: http://www.edreform.com/download/CER_2009_AR_Charter_Schools.pdf

[mzteris]

13. in some cases, not much. . .

However, there is more autonomy for innovation in most of the Charters I've been personally familiar with. While some magnets are free to use *some* different methodologies and focus on some of the different areas of talent/need, they're still completely controlled by the local schoolboard and subject to a lot of the same restricts.

It really does vary state by state, and school district by school district. I've had kids in every type of schooling imaginable except private, which I can't afford.

Charter public schools can offer people who can't afford a "private school education" the opportunity for their children to get a "different kind of education". What that "different kind" is - depends on the school - and in large part on the desires of the community. What is most important is what type of education will suit the child best?

There can be no "cookie-cutter-approach" to education. Every child is different and every child deserves an education that is right for them.

[noamnety]

86. We're seeing a lot of that this year -

people who aren't satisfied with their local public school, but can't afford a private school. I can't tell you how many people have come through our building enrolling new students, with stories of being laid off, fighting of foreclosures, etc. Some of them had their kids in great private schools, but there's no way they can handle the tuition this year.

[noamnety]

84. Adding to the explanations here

Magnet schools limit enrollment to people who live in their district. They can also very explicitly enroll only the best and brightest, draining them from the regular classroom - or giving them a better tailored experience, depending on your viewpoint.

Charters open the doors to anyone who can get there - and in that way they are less exclusionary. A magnet school in a rich white neighborhood limits its enrollment to rich white kids (those who live in the neighborhood). They are allowed to exclude students who aren't gifted, they can test and take only the highest achievers.

A charter located in a rich white neighborhood, on the other hand, is accessible to poor minority students in surrounding areas, even to students who don't score well on tests.

My daughter was accepted to both a district magnet high school and to a charter high school. They were located in very similar neighborhoods - adjacent suburbs. The magnet school limited enrollment to the top scoring 60-70 freshmen in the entire district (a district that serves 30,000 students total).

The charter school is significantly more diverse because it accepts students from detroit, while the magnet school excludes them, and admission is not based on test scores at all. The magnet had no cognitively impaired kids, for instance, while the charter had several.

Test scores reflect these differences. The magnet school has astronomical test scores, not a surprise based on them serving primarily privileged kids screened for test scores. The charter has significantly lower scores than the magnet, lower than the traditional high schools in the neighborhood - but the flip side is that the scores are significantly higher than the detroit schools many of their students came from.

Both options were free for us - as was the regular public school option. We opted to put our high achiever in the school with the lowest test scores - the charter. It catered to her interests and we liked that it was much more diverse. The test scores didn't concern us; we don't believe in standardized testing as a measure of what a school is accomplishing - even less so now that we have first hand experience seeing that a school's scores are more influenced by the prior knowledge of the kids enrolled than by teaching methods. If a teacher's good, we can tell. If they are bad, we can tell.

I'm always bemused by people who oppose standardized test scores as a measure of anything meaningful - yet still go straight to them to "prove" charter schools are ineffective. I am also bemused by those who claim people put their kids in charters to "get away from minorities" even though the demographics of charters prove they have a higher minority population. If it hadn't been for the local charter, my kid would have been in an almost exclusively white school.

[mzteris]

87. Thank you!

The demographics bear out that most Charter public schools are much more diverse than many a traditional schoolboard run public school.

Speaking of bemusement - the same people who decry "testing" to measure traditional schoolboard-run public schools' performance, always want to point to (some) Charter public schools' "low test scores". Without really understanding WHY the Charter Public schools might have "lower test scores" - as if it mattered anyway. :shrug:

[mzteris]

7. NEA President Dennis Van Roekel on Public Charter schools

“There is much to learn from charter school success stories as well as charter school failures. Charter schools have the potential to be incubators of promising educational practices that can be replicated in mainstream schools. The key is to identify what is working that can be sustained and reproduced on a broad scale so that as many students as possible can benefit. We need to create more supportive learning environments for educators and students alike in all of our public schools. This is an essential part of fulfilling NEA’s vision of a great public school for every student. NEA President Dennis Van Roekel

[Hannah Bell]

55. Teachers’ union criticizes Obama for relying too much on charter schools, test scores

Libby Quaid August 22nd, 2009
Teachers’ union criticizes Obama on schools stance

WASHINGTON — The National Education Association pointedly criticized the Obama administration, saying the president is relying too heavily on charter schools and standardized tests in his attempt to overhaul the nation’s schools.

“We urge the administration to step outside of this narrow agenda,” the nation’s largest teachers union said in a public statement filed Friday with the Education Department.

The comments reflect that Obama has taken positions on school reform that conflict with teachers unions, an influential segment of his Democratic base.

“Despite growing evidence to the contrary, it appears the administration has decided that charter schools are the only answer to what ails America’s public schools,” the 3.2 million-member union said in its 26 pages of comments.

Charter schools are public schools that operate with more independence, usually without union teachers.

http://blog.taragana.com/n/teachers-union-criticizes-obama-for-relying-too-much-on-charter-schools-test-scores-146689/

[cleverusername]

14. Set up varies

In my district, the charter school is part of the school district. Not all charter schools are set up the same. Maybe this charter school is more like a magnet school?

[woodsprite]

18. In DE they are, and they can kick your butt out if you don't tow the line.

THAT I like! Unfortunately our area doesn't have a charter high school with an orchestra and arts program :(

[mzteris]

20. They are PUBLIC in EVERY STATE -

despite claims to the contrary and the attempt by some to claim that they're "private schools" paid for with "public money". They have to take anyone who applies (with of course any qualifications required for a particular speciality - like ORCHESTRA, for example. . . which makes complete sense.


Every traditional-school-board-run-public-school- should be able to remove students from the classroom that are disrupting the learning of others. Alternative classrooms, alternative schools - some districts have them, some don't. I think they should be mandatory. If you don't want to learn, fine, don't keep the other kids from learning. Those parents should be brought in as well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. No they do NOT have to take anyone who applies

Maybe in your state. But that is not true nationwide.

[mzteris]

Did you miss the part about

some standards being necessary - like being able to speak Spanish or something?

Please tell me the school disricts where the Charter Public schools can deny entrance to anyone without cause . . . Maybe there are some, after all - there are nearly 6000 charter public schools.


Seriously, though, how do you reconcile "neighborhood" traditional school-board-run-public schools that are inhabited solely by "blond-haired/blue-eyed/little rich kids" or by the "poor minorities" with no other option? Isn't this a type of enforced discrimination?

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. They are allowed to admit or deny admission to anyone they want

There is an application process the kids are put through where they have to give teachers as references. Then the charters call the teachers. As soon as they find out I teach special ed, they politely hang up and then deny the admission. I had three calls in the last few weeks. Happens every Fall.

On the rare occasion they do admit a special needs child, they often kick them out as soon as they realize their needs cannot be met. Those children then return to the traditional public school system. I have one such child this year. I had two last year.

How do YOU reconcile this blatant discrimination against kids with disabilities?

[mzteris]

54. do you mind pm'ing

me the name of this school? or sending me a link?

I'm having a very hard time accepting this . . .

Though as I've stated many many times- there are "bad charter public schools" out there - find 'em and close them down! Unlike traditional school-board-run-public schools - you can DO that . . .

Did you look at the stats I posted on enrollments in Charter public schools? the numbers are INCREASING for students with disabilities. There are some charter public schools set up FOR kids with disabilities. As these schools are open longer and are able to expand their enrollment, they are increasing their ability to serve kids with special needs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. There are about a dozen here

and even more in other parts of the state. There is one here that has been reasonably successful but test scores overall for all the charters are lower than the traditional public schools (and those are very low). The charters do have a higher graduation rate but that is because they kick kids out who aren't on track to graduate. Some of those kids return to the public schools, and their graduation rate is lowered because of them.

[mzteris]

66. lower scores -

yes, because a lot of kids WITH PROBLEMS - GO to Charter Public Schools!

AND, Charter public schools - generally - don't "teach to the test" - and most parents understand - and WANT that. Who gives a rip about the damn "test scores" if your kid is ACTUALLY LEARNING, ya know?!?!

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. So it's fair to penalize some schools for having low test scores but let's leave the charters alone?

Well not really leave them alone. Let's give them even more money! Who cares what their test scores are!!

Yep sounds reasonable to me. :sarcasm:

[mzteris]

90. I don't like the tests at all, do you?

Let's not use "tests" as a criteria. . .

If a charter public school is "failing" - it's closed. What happens to a traditional school-board-run public school that is "failing" it's students.

[Hannah Bell]

97. The tests *are* the criteria, & when the public schools score low, it's used to pump for more

charters.

But when charters score low - shills have any number of excuses & want to sweep it under the rug. *AND* still have more charters.

[noamnety]

108. Do you think they should be used to measure the success

of either type of school?

[Hannah Bell]

120. Beside the point, which is: charter advocates use the tests to shut down public ed & open charters,

then plead special circumstances when they fail the same tests.

I think *all* schools should have the lovely class sizes & special programs of Katherine porter elementary charter school, & wonder why charter schools have the funds & public schools don't.

[noamnety]

134. I suspect there are special circumstances

when any school fails - the main ones being generational poverty and the related institutional racism (and a bunch of things that stem from that).

As for where the money's going, any public school's financial records are open to the public, you can request them through FOIA if you wish. In our area, charters get less money per student than neighborhood schools because we can't run local millages to raise revenue. Some traditional schools here get almost twice the funding we get.

They also spend a lot more to support things like their sports culture. Sometimes the money is just flat out embezzled (probably happens to some extent at charters, the big stories in my area are about embezzlement at traditional publics). Sometimes a much higher percent is spent on administration. If you run one school as its own district, you pay one principal. If you run 20 schools in a district, all of a sudden you aren't just paying 20 principals, you're paying superintendents, district coordinators, all kinds of admin folks whose salaries are far above what a teacher makes, sometimes even above what the principal makes. And extra buildings for an entire staff who doesn't even work in the actual schools. The larger an organization is, the more overhead expenses they seem to absorb in almost magical ways.

One of the schools in my state just spent 5 million dollars on a swimming pool!

[MattBaggins]

125. Ding ding ding ding

How many dings can I give this.

Your post should be used in text books as an example of hitting the nail on the head.

[demgurl]

227. Our charter school does better with grades than regular public schools.

We do the state tests but we also give NWEA's so that we know where the kids are lagging. The first NWEA is given within a week of school starting. It is done on computer and tells us exactly where the child is exceeding expectations and where they are lagging. It helps us know where we have to help them. They are tested, again, the middle of the year and then before the end of the year. Their progress is charted. We figure the state tests are only given at the end of the year and it does not help us to know your child is failing just when it happens.

Besides keeping up with the state curriculum, which is the only thing our public schools are required to do, we also keep up with a national curriculum so that if you ever transfer to an out-of-state school, you will already be up to speed with what they are doing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. Tell that to the federal govt

What we like doesn't matter. The tests are used as criteria. That's the reality.

[Hannah Bell]

77. Charter schools lag in serving the neediest: Disparity widens rift with districts

Globe Staff / August 12, 2009

Governor Deval Patrick has touted his proposed expansion of charter schools as a way to help students who face the greatest academic challenges, such as language barriers and disabilities. But a Globe analysis shows that charter schools in cities targeted by the proposal tend to enroll few special education students or English language learners.

That imbalance raises questions about how much expertise these schools can offer and about their efforts to recruit such students, whose academic needs are generally greater than those of other youngsters.

In Boston, which hosts a quarter of the state’s charter schools, English language learners represented less than 4 percent of students at all but one of the charter schools last year, although they make up nearly a fifth of the students in the school system. Collectively, the 16 Boston charter schools taught fewer than 100 students who lacked fluency in English; six schools enrolled none.

While Boston charter schools had a higher representation of special education students, more than half still lagged at least 6 percentage points below the school district’s average of 21 percent. In urban districts statewide, special education enrollment was 10 percent or lower at about a third of the charter schools.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2009/08/12/charter_schools_lag_in_serving_students_with_special_needs/

[Hannah Bell]

83. Charter schools serve fewer poor, disabled

March 25, 2007

State officials boasted in November that Florida charter students were closing the longtime achievement gap with peers at conventional public schools.

A state report said a likely reason was a "more diverse student population" at charters today, similar to that at traditional schools.

Only two paragraphs in the report, titled "A Decade of Progress," discussed a different change that also can affect a school's test scores: the shrinking percentage of poor and disabled charter students.

A majority are doing what some opponents predicted more than 10 years ago: serving primarily the affluent and the able while harder-to-teach children remain in regular public schools.

In 1996, charters served about the same share of these students as regular campuses. Ten years later, they trail conventional schools by 10 percentage points in enrollment of poor children and 3 percentage points in terms of the disabled.

The imbalance is more dramatic at the individual-school level. Two out of three charters taught a smaller share of disabled children last year than the average public school in their home counties, the Orlando Sentinel found.

The same held true for students who qualified for free and reduced-price meals, a traditional measure of poverty. Sixty percent of charters served a smaller portion of these children than their typical district school.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-chday1side2507mar25,0,299161.story

[noamnety]

118. That is the data for just one state.

There will be some states above the national average, some below. The national data's already been posted in this thread, from the NEA, which is hardly biased against traditional schools:

Nationally, charters serve a higher percentage of poor kids:
Free/reduced Lunch: Charter: 49 Traditional: 42

Nationally, charters serve a slightly lower level of kids with IEPs, but in the same ballpark, certainly not like they are routinely excluding them:
IEPs: Charter: 11 Traditional: 13

Nationally charters serve a slightly higher level of kids who are English language learners, but in the same ballpark:
ELLs: Charter: 12 Traditional: 11

Nationally, charters have nearly double the rate of minority teachers.

[Hannah Bell]

123. notice the articles about other states.

the fallacy of composition is rife in charter school propaganda.


If only *one* state (say louisiana) has both a high percent of charter schools & a high-percent of minority/low-income, it skews the composite "average".

Don't they teach "how not to be fooled by bullshit stats" in charter schools?

or do they only teach how to create bullshit stats?

[mzteris]

126. they like to ignore the facts

Charter public schools are increasingly serving minorities and lowincome children. As they mature in years (the schools) I am almost positive that you will see an large INCREASE in the number of IEP kids they serve.

One of things is, that a lot of kids in Charter public schools don't require that "official IEP" because their individual needs are being met by the teachers so they don't have to have to bureaucrat REQUIRE the teacher to meet the need, ya know?

[Hannah Bell]

130. Carnoy says charters show no improvement for low-income African-American students

Charter schools' troubled waters

March 30, 2005
Boston Globe
By Derrick Z. Jackson, Globe Columnist

DESPITE promising us a compass, charter schools have hit another shoal. More evidence says they are no better than public schools.

''Proponents of charter schools have a deregulationist view of education that says the marketplace leads to better schools," Lawrence Mishel, president of the nonprofit, nonpartisan Economic Policy Institute, said over the telephone. ''The facts of the matter suggest that this view is without merit."

Mishel and three other university researchers from Columbia and Stanford universities are authors of the forthcoming book ''The Charter School Dust-Up." The researchers reviewed federal data and the results from 19 studies in 11 states and the District of Columbia. They found that charter school students, on the whole, ''have the same or lower scores than other public school students in nearly every demographic category."


http://ed.stanford.edu/suse/faculty/displayFacultyNews.php?tablename=notify1&id=367

[Hannah Bell]

131. Charter school students do not out perform public school students, according to report

By Connie Llanos, Staff Writer
Updated: 06/15/2009 07:19:41 PM PDT


Charter school students are not performing as well as their peers at traditional public schools, according to a landmark report released Monday that also pointed to a need for more accountability at the increasingly popular alternative campuses.

The study by Stanford University's Center for Research on Education Outcomes looked at more than 70 percent of that nation's charter school students, providing one of the first national snapshots of their academic performance.

Margaret Raymond, the report's author, said the study examined individual student data from schools in 16 states, including California, and found large variations in charter school performance.

The study found 17 percent of charter students outperformed traditional schools; 37 percent underperformed traditional schools and 46 percent showed no significant difference.


http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_12596726

[noamnety]

146. And yet - parents and students continue to choose them.

That's the difference between people using test scores one way or another to support their political agenda - and actual families who have to live with the realities of what goes on within the walls.

People with an agenda and statisticians point to the numbers as The Measure Of Success, even as they admit it's a bad measure. "Oh well, it's the measure we have."

Anyone speaking as a student or parent knows that other things carry more weight in their lives, beyond whether 87% vs. 84% of the students are reading at grade level.

Make a list of the most important aspects of your own education. I doubt "the average standardized test scores of the students in my class" will be in your top five. It certainly isn't in mine.

[Hannah Bell]

147. yes, imposing conditions on public schools that increase dysfunction & defunding them

while exempting others from the rules & giving million dollar start-up grants, in concert with a well-funded propaganda campaign will do that.

[noamnety]

150. I wish more people would focus their outrage where it belongs

which is on inequitable funding in schools in general.

"http://www.educationsector.org/research/research_show.htm?doc_id=685520"

That's a real issue, and it's screwing over neighborhood schools far more than any charters are, to be perfectly blunt. Charters didn't ruin the Detroit schools or New Orleans schools. Rich schools getting richer while the poor get poorer, and support of local millages as a means of funding schools is your problem. As long as people support local millages, those inequities will continue to widen. If you've been voting for those millages, you are part of the problem just as much as if you were a white christian male voting to deny equal rights to others who aren't white christian males.

As for the million dollar grants, we didn't get any of that - but I've seen multi-million dollar millages passed for the neighborhood schools (that's how that one school I referenced got a 5 million dollar swimming pool). I don't see the same level of outrage over this for some reason.

People are so focused on using charters as a scapegoat that they seem to have completely dropped the ball on the real problem. Charters arose as a treatment for a symptom. Nobody seems willing to address the underlying disease, though.

And I can tell you exactly why that is - because most of the people talking the loudest against schools of choice have kids in relatively privileged schools and are benefiting from that inequity. White middle class activists don't REALLY want to upset the status quo, not if it means their kids are suddenly in schools that don't have electricity or working toilets. They will continue to vote to give THEIR schools more money, they'll continue voting to take advantage of that institutional racism, even as they claim they oppose it.

[Hannah Bell]

156. my outrage is currently reserved for those pretending top-down stealth "reform" designed to bust

unions & local power bases = grassroots activism.

[noamnety]

158. My outrage is at the system as a whole

which is based on the rich getting all the perks, while the poor get screwed. Our "public" education is worse than medicare or food stamps, where at least all the participants get the same benefits regardless of where they can afford to live.

That's the current status quo in our schools. It's worthy of outrage. People higher up on the ladder are blind to it, though.

[Hannah Bell]

160. what a great reason to sign onto a school "reform" project sponsored

& funded by the super-rich!

[noamnety]

162. I'm under no illusions here

Both the democrats and the republicans are destroying the public school system as we know it - but as I said, charters are a symptom, not the disease. Charters aren't the reason any school - including urban schools - are underfunded, or funded at inequitable levels. Even without charters, neither party and none of your activists are willing to risk the privileges that the middle class and up currently enjoy. They want to continue to be allowed to earmark some portion of their tax dollars only for the schools in wealthier districts.

The current system is the community version of being a libertarian: "My (well off) school district wanted a nice facility so we funded it. If the poor districts won't raise money through property taxes or millages, it must be because they don't want to. Not my problem. I guess they just don't value education."

Meanwhile, Detroit residents pay their share of federal taxes to support those schools in suburban areas that they are denied access to. That should be illegal.

If all the public schools were open enrollment schools so that anyone could attend if they could get there, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be more equitable than it is now. But that pisses people off - they don't want their taxes or facilities going to educate the poor black kids. They don't want those kids in their school. We've done a full flip since the days of busing to desegregate. We're right back to enforced segregation, with some public schools hiring full-time employees to ensure the "wrong" kids don't get one over on them by attending a good school when they aren't entitled to that level of education.

[Hannah Bell]

163. I'm curious how charters remedy this. IMO, they will exacerbate it.

[noamnety]

165. They treat the symptoms, not the disease.

They don't cause the disease, they don't exacerbate it - they aren't the disease. Nobody is willing to ask the hard questions about the disease itself.

How many hot threads do we have about charters? Maybe one or two massive ones a month or so.
How many hot threads do we have about the inequitable funding methods like millages that reinforce and reproduce inequality?

None that I remember in the whole time I've been here.

[Hannah Bell]

166. they don't even treat the symptoms, as a whole. & they're not intended to.

they're one portion of a program to destroy the new deal.

plenty of people are willing to ask "the hard questions". the disease is capitalism. the new deal programs softened the edges of it.

charters schools are a trojan horse for more savage inequalities than you've experienced in your lifetime.

[noamnety]

172. As a whole, no they don't solve systemic problems,

and no they aren't intended to. We agree on that. They are a godsend for some of the individuals who are not being served in the existing system, but they aren't a cure for the entire system. They don't magically cause resources to be redistributed fairly from a rich school to a poor one.

With or without charters the main system is horribly messed up. You can get rid of every last charter school, and the main system will still be broken, and the degree to which it is broken will still be increasing.

I agree that the disease is capitalism. Both parties will therefore continue to give lip service to supporting what we have in education, while going through a bunch of political rot to "prove" they were holding schools accountable (high stakes testing), despite knowing that it's harming kids. Both parties will continue to support inequitable funding systems because the people who donate most to their campaigns benefit from it.

I would say dismantle that and you'll have eliminated the need for charters, but that's not entirely true because even if all districts were funded in truly equitable ways and had the same resources, education is still not one-size-fits-all, and some kids would still be better served in larger schools (because of team activities like large orchestras or sports) and others would still be better served in smaller schools with difference cultures and values (ones that cater to the arts, or to science, or to ELL learners, or Deaf communities). But you would have eliminated students leaving their schools for charters simply because their schools are generally inadequate for anyone. I think we'll always have a need for smaller schools with special missions.

This would be my priority list:

1) Open enrollment not based on residency for all public schools. (Easiest quickest partial fix - but it doesn't help kids without transportation to decent schools any more than charter schools do)

2) Equitable funding for all public schools. Not "equal" funding - but equitable, meaning those with inadequate facilities and leaking roofs and such get more money now with NO facility expenditures at rich schools until the poor ones are brought up to par. It's disgraceful that some have indoor swimming pools while others don't even have electricity. No school taxes collected unless they go into the big federal pot for all to benefit from. Right now the rich kids are essentially getting private educations in their public schools by having the resources to raise additional funds that are only used within their schools.

3) Stop with the high stakes testing and NCLB. It's designed to "prove" that public schools (of all sorts) are failures.

[Hannah Bell]

195. "They are a godsend for some"

per the recent stanford study, 17% of charter schools students outperform their public school peers matched for socio-economic/ethnic characteristics; 37% perform equivalently; the rest do worse.

your priority list is fine, but it isn't on the table.

charter schools are, & that's what you appear to be promoting here.

[noamnety]

201. Again, you are using test scores as the only criteria for test scores.

I acknowledge that's what the government statisticians use, and those who buy into that system.

And I recognize that in the real world, that's not what makes education good. Other things - graduation rates, drop out rates, depression, bullying, following on to college, developing a love of life-long learning, are all things that matter in the real world that families live in.

For someone who is a bad fit in their school (whether it be a bad fit for the neighborhood school, a bad fit for a charter school, whatever), having a RANGE of CHOICES is a godsend. There are some magnet schools (often with those admission requirements you oppose), and some schools which still run vocational training for half days, but generally the traditional public schools do not allow for a choice among a range of environments.

[Hannah Bell]

245. i'm not using test scores for anything. i'm saying this IS the system, your reforms AREN'T

on the table, rich elites are financing a propaganda assault to set up an alternate system of charter schools & allowing private ownership of same, complete with private centralised "oversight", & you're signing on to it, apparently. Though it will NEVER address the issues you say matter to you, & in fact, will make them worse over time.

[noamnety]

251. My issues aren't on the table because progressives and republicans support the status quo.

Even when I bring it up, I can't get people like you to just state openly:

"I oppose using geographic boundaries as exclusion criteria for any public school"

and

"I oppose using millages to help make the rich schools richer."

Both of those issues make our education system worse in ways that are far more immediate and widespread than charter schools. But I'd be willing to bet you've even voted FOR the millages (voted for unequal funding). Those people are the worst enablers.

[Hannah Bell]

85. Study: Some D.C. public charter schools continue selective admissions practices

By Michael Birnbaum
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, June 27, 2009

Some D.C. public charter schools continue selective admissions practices that discourage special-needs students from enrolling, and students citywide with possible disabilities still face delays in special education evaluations, a federal court monitor said this week.

"Charter schools . . . generally have not enrolled students with significant disabilities who required extensive hours of special services or education," the monitor, Amy Totenberg, wrote in a report prepared for a court hearing yesterday.

The report casts a somewhat harsh light on a fast-growing sector of public education in the city. Charter schools, which receive public funding but are independently operated, have siphoned many students from the city's troubled public school system and have posted somewhat higher test scores than regular schools in recent years.

But Totenberg said some charter schools explicitly limit the number of hours of special education they will provide and counsel parents to enroll their children at regular public schools or at private or other public charter schools that focus on students with disabilities. D.C. law prohibits charter schools from asking about learning disabilities or emotional problems during the admission process.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/26/AR2009062604138.html

[Hannah Bell]

111. Few Poor, Minority Pupils In Charters

Celia R. Baker and Julia Lyon, Salt Lake Tribune, July 30, 2006

Charter schools in Utah increasingly are serving wealthy, white students and leaving poorer and minority children behind in traditional public schools, a Salt Lake Tribune analysis shows.

Although charter schools by law are open to every student because taxpayers fund them, in practice many educate only a narrow slice of the population. Some Utah school districts with high minority student populations are home to charter schools with significantly smaller percentages of ethnic minorities, and many of the newest charter schools will open this fall in affluent communities with little diversity.

Of 13 charter schools opening this fall along the Wasatch Front, 11 are in communities with median household incomes that exceed the state average, by as much as 58 percent. Plus, even charter schools in diverse communities often don’t reflect the diversity that surrounds them.

The Tribune’s analysis shows that in the 2005-06 school year, the Salt Lake City School District, where 52 percent of students are ethnic minorities, has charter schools in its boundaries with 21 percent and 18 percent minority populations. In the Ogden City School District, where half the students are minorities, charter schools have 28 percent and 15 percent minority populations.



http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/08/few_poor_minori.php

[Hannah Bell]

115. The way they can spin the national stats to say charters "in general" educate more minorities

is by the inclusion of high-minority, high-charter districts like New Orleans in the mix.

What it leaves out is the district-by-district analysis of income & race, which can be quite different from the aggregate numbers.

[demgurl]

225. I know our charter school.

I teach there and have held other jobs at our school. My children have attended the school for several years. By far there are many more African Americans than any other race. Then there are Hispanics and finally Caucasians. The basic make up of their class and any point in time is something like 80% African American, 16% Hispanic and the rest are divided between Caucasians and whatever other groups may be there.

[noamnety]

121. You are pulling data from specific regions although they are not representative

of the overall stats. National data has already been posted. Yes, some areas are above national averages, some are below.

The overall picture: charters serve almost double the percent of black students, and slightly more hispanic students.

[Hannah Bell]

128. "averages" are generally bullshit. bill gates & me have an "average" income of billions.

one lily-white charter for rich people & one dark black charter for poor = "average" racial & economic integration in the charter system in aggregate.

i believe i've now posted articles from four states & there's plenty more.

[noamnety]

135. I'm bemused, again

... this time at the fact that I'm quoting stats from the NEA, one of the largest unions of public school teachers, and you're trying to claim that those are biased against public schools.

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

143. your rofl icon doesn't make what you say more convincing. it's just cheap & childish.

i'm claiming the use of averages doesn't necessarily tell us much of interest, & i'm explaining why. it's you who added the phony inferences.

my claim is: your stats don't make the case you claim they do.

[demgurl]

217. That is one are and one area only.

The charter school my sons attend are mostly poor students who hardly live above the poverty line. When ags was sky high I gave money to one Mom because she could not afford to pick up the kids and make it to work. Two days ago I talked with one Mom who has collections calls harrassing her all the time and she has no job to pay the bills. It is poor enough that an annymous donor donates heavy coats to the school each winter so that no one has to do without. There was one child, last year, whose family could not afford lucnhes and the child was too proud to accept free/reduced lunch so the teacher would let him 'work it off' helping clean the classroom and such so he would, and could, eat. This was a 3rd grader!

This is in a poor part of town where some windows have bars. No, our kids are not wealthy any any means. This does not mean other charters do not have rich famlies but I wanted you to know that there are charters out there that do have a huge make up of poor kids.

[Hannah Bell]

145. Who do charters educate?

Charters claim that their low special-ed enrollment is in the interest of the students. They should go to a school designed to offer them an appropriate curriculum, with the necessary facilities already in place. This means that charters don't have to spend the large amount of money that would be required to assist these students. It keeps the cost of charter operations down and skews test scores upward. It also explains why only 10 charters in Los Angeles have special-ed programs.

What happens when a charter special-ed kid needs more help and the school has no appropriate program? In Los Angeles, the student can request non-public school funding. The cost of that falls on the Los Angeles Unified School District, not the charter. In the last three years, the LAUSD paid $4 million to educate, in non-district schools, 100 former charter students; the charters paid nothing. Many of these children would have been appropriately served in the multitude of programs provided within the LAUSD's traditional schools.

Traditional public schools take all students and must accept the demographics of the neighborhood. We will never know how successful charters are as long as they fail to take on the total responsibility of educating a representative group of all the children in our communities.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinionla/la-oew-snell-shaffer11-2009jun11,0,2216903.story

[demgurl]

215. In our state the charter schools are not allowed to discriminate like that.

Our school has many special needs kids. One of them must use a device to talk for them. That student has been with us for about 5 years now. He can not even use the bathroom on his own so this is not a borderline case at all. His Mom likes us so much she tells other special needs parents about our charter school.

Any school that does discrinate needs to be put out of business. I am not saying there are none but I am saying ours is better than that and it is a great school. My 3rd grader tested on a 7th grade for reading last year. My kids have thrived in that school.

[Telly Savalas]

164. Not all public schools take anyone who applies.

e.g. Lincoln Prep in our own district.

[demgurl]

228. Licoln charter school.........

http://lincolncharter.teamcfa.org/pages/enrollment/575/frequently_asked_questions

Lincoln Charter School is a school of choice. Applications are accepted year-round, and kindergarten openings are filled by a lottery process usually held the first weekend in March. Kindergarten student names are drawn from registered applicants to fill classes. All other openings for the calendar year are filled based on availability and waiting list applicants.

Does a Charter School need to accept my special education student?

Yes, the law requires charter schools to educate their Special Education students. Some charter schools may choose to purchase Special Education services from their local school district, whereas others have hired their own staff to deliver these services.

[demgurl]

229. OK, I listed one Lincoln charter school but .....

you said Lincoln Prep. I looked for that and found one in Kansas. It does screen in the fact that they require certain grades and even if you have those grades, at first, you will be kicked out if your grades fall under the desired level. (C) I could not find anywhere on their site where it says that school is a charter school. I scoured it and then had my hubby scour it.

[TankLV]

140. NO THEY ARE NOT!!! Here in Las Vegas, ASSSHOLE EDISON SCHOOLS were PRIVATELY OWNED!!!

They ran their schools INTO THE GROUND, and left TAXPAYERS scrambling to find ROOM and PAY for their students!!!

[Hannah Bell]

144. Chris Whittle CEO of Edison, married into Italy's Agnelli family. They own most of the Italian

stock market & most of the country.

Big, big money in the push for charter schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. And where do those kids go when they are kicked out?

[mzteris]

46. I think every school district

should have alternative schools and/or classrooms available for the habitual trouble makers who don't want other kids to learn.

Children and parents need to be held accountable for behaviour and standards. Maybe that is one of the problems in some of the traditional-school-board-run-public-schools.

One child in a room should not keep the other 25 (38?) from learning on a regular basis.

[proud2BlibKansan]

I didn't ask what you thought

I asked where these kids end up. I believe you know the answer. I believe this also proves the traditional public schools are more equipped to deal with ALL children, regardless of their learning and emotional needs. That is a cornerstone of public education in this country. And you can't call charters public schools as long as they don't serve ALL of our kids.

[mzteris]

60. They're doing the best they can just like you do -

if a child is deaf, they need a deaf school, if they're blind, they need a blind school,

if you don't have the ability to teach someone, you shouldn't try. (not you, you p2b the general "you")

And as I stated there are charters just FOR kids with issues. And as the charter schools "MATURE" (remember most of them are less than 5 years old and expanding from K/1 and up . . . ) they WILL do a better job.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Deaf and blind kids are enrolled in public schools all over the country

There are no charters here just for kids with disabilities (not "issues" - how insensitive can one be? "issues"?!?!)

[mzteris]

91. Yeah, issues -

That's not insensitive - my kid has "issues" - he's gifted and quirky and has LD's - he has "ISSUES" with the traditional setting.

Are you just looking to be aghast?

[haele]

74. Back to public school - or to a magnet school for kids with behavioral issues -

We're going through this now; San Diego school district has pretty much made all non-charter public middle and high schools "magnets" - arts, business, International Studies, sci/tech, "leadership", etc... except for the two/three bone-head or troublemaker schools, so kids with learning disabilites are shuttled between the magnet school they would normally "fit" in - to a charter school with "alternative learning schedule" (basically for self-starters who want to graduate early) - to the bone-head school before the school district will implement an individual education plan (IEP) as required by the state for children who have problems with a normal classroom.
And with budget cuts, the normal classrooms are usually 45 to 50 kids, so it's easy to get lost and fall behind.
Too many times, the charter school is used as a way to shuffle kids around so the school doesn't get hit under NCLB, especially ones that have alternative learning schedules based on lesson module turn in rather than actual attendance - a kid can drag out two or three semesters going to school only five or six days for a couple hours each so long as he or she makes an attempt to turn in the homework modules before they start bringing the hammer down on the kid.
Many of the students in the kidlet's various class spent grades 9 - 11 being switched between various charters and schools until they got to the age they could GED out - one of her charter school classmates last year had been to four schools in three years, and they were getting ready to switch him into the troublemaker's magnet so he could get his GED and leave the system.

Haele

[mzteris]

93. and this is the Charter Public schools' fault - how?

Charters in CA are of a different breed - like everything else in CA, evidently. lol......

Again - close bad schools, get rid of bad teachers, lose the ineffective programs. Support and learn from the good ones.

It's not a contest.

Go back and read my OP here - it's so very very important that people should understand this.

[haele]

103. I didn't say it was the Charter School's Fault -

It's the Public School District's fault on how they use their charter schools. It's the State and local Education Board's problem on how they view their charter schools.

If a Charter School is non-profit and is considered an alternate for the GATE or learning disabled to the local school district's educational system, the Charter School can be abused. The two Charter School corporations that are associated with the local School District are certainly being used as a way to shuffle kids and their records around. Both Charter School corporations have their offices out of the district, so any issues that the children are having are being recorded elsewhere in the state - or in the country.

There is a place for Charter Schools in a public school district - the limited class sizes and modular lesson plans are good for many kids, especially self-starters or children who get bored easily. But for others, it's not very good, and the School Districts are using the Charters and Magnets to hide their "problem children" until it gets too obvious and they actually have to make an effort to accomidate those children as the law requires.

Haele

[mzteris]

106. Ah - so it's the traditional schoolboard that is at fault

for abusing the system.

Gotcha.

Thanks!

[omega minimo]

19. No they're not. Charter schools are independent from the traditional public school system and drain

students and funds off of the public school system, exacerbating the problems in the national public school system.

There has been no local or national discussion about abandoning the public school system and replacing it with independent charters. The lie in your title is part of the propaganda.

[mzteris]

21. did you miss this part?

Instead of setting up a false competition between charter and public schools, we should be focusing on what we can learn from high-performing schools, be they charter or traditional public. And we should concentrate on how charter and traditional public schools can collaborate to share best practices, so our students benefit from this joint expertise.

And they are PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Period.

They don't "drain students and funds" because they ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

Show me ONE legitimate source anywhere that can affirm that Charters are not Public schools. Even the Teachers Unions recognize that they are PUBLIC SCHOOLS.



edited because my first response was rude and I apologize. . .

[omega minimo]

31. It's a lie. They are not public in the traditional sense, in the sense people mean "public schools"

There are many distinctions and pretending they are identical is a total lie. People should not fall for this.

There is competition for students, funds and resources.

If a healthy solution is possible it would include HONESTY about the options, the effects on the national public school system and the effects on communities.

Charters can be "good schools." However, they are indepedendent and not subject to all the regulation of the public schools. In some cases this is abused by the charter owners, who may be "non-profit" but set up other associated entities to acquire funds and hire themselves to run the "non profit" charter schools.

This issue -- and the propaganda -- is about privatizing public education without any public discussion. There is A LOT of money involved.

[mzteris]

36. again - show me any proof that they are not PUBLIC

Just because you keep saying it does not make it true.

In what sense do you think that they are NOT PUBLIC? Please be specific.

The effect on communities is positive. In school districts where there are successful charter public schools, there is an associated increase in test scores by the traditional school-board-run-public schools in that district! How do you account for that, eh?

Yes, some charter public schools are "abused" by their owners. Some traditional school-board-run-public schools are "abused" as well. Scandals of financial shenanigans. Scandals of textbook kickbacks. Scandals of rightwing fundies running the schoolboards. Scandals of wanting teach Intelligent Design. Scandals of - well, you get the idea . . .

Get rid of bad schools, keep good ones.


"Privitizing" Public Education - nearly all Charter Public schools are run by co-ops of teachers, parents, educators, and community supporters. Only 11% of all public charter schools are run by "for-profit" organizations. I hardly see that as "privitization".

[omega minimo]

39. Be honest

The onus is on you to describe how independent charter schools are different from the public schools system.

I have already addressed the non-profit point.

[mzteris]

47. I am being honest. Every single definititon, description of

every single Charter public school shows that Charter schools ARE PUblic schools. I really don't understand how anyone can say that they are not. I'm seriously asking you what it is about them that you don't think are public? I don't get it, really I don't.

How have you "addressed the non-profit part" - you made a claim for which I've never seen any documentation to back up. THough I'm sure there is SOME abuse, it is not all Charters. Don't through the baby out with the bathwater, you know?

[omega minimo]

52. Read my posts. I've already said. Why is this slogan so important to you and others

in face of the facts? Why is that propagandist line the most important point to make, if there is to be discussion on this?

If you want to miss the point and continue pretending not to understand or acknowledge the difference b/w charter schools and the public schools -- and count on destroying that meaning to promote charters -- there's no discussion.

Anyone promoting charter schools and interested in discussion would be able to articulate the differences and not be bent on trying to convince people they're the exact same thing.

People's BS detectors are better than that, which is why, locally and nationally, this is being slipped in WITHOUT discussion.

[mzteris]

58. I don't understand -

you talk about facts, but you have yet to produce ONE FACT that substantiates YOUR claim that Charter Public Schools are NOT PUBLIC.

The NEA, The AFT, The Department of Education, Every Department of Public Instruction of every state that allows charters, every single charter that is written states that they ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

Why can't YOU "articulate" the difference? Because I most assuredly cannot. I truly believe that you are operating from a position of bias and misinformation. I'm trying to educate people about this issue because a handful of people who "don't like charters" keep trying to give all Charter Public Schools a bad name by making inaccurate - and blatantly false claims.

Now, again, please, if you will, tell me what it is about Charter Public schools that you think is not Public? You seem to think I'm being disingenuous or provocative or argumentative or something - but I am TRYING to UNDERSTAND and have an honest dialogue here. I just honestly DO NOT UNDERSTAND how you can say they are not PUBLIC.

Please help me out here.

[omega minimo]

80. Bullshit. I already have. And you're stuck on the propaganda rather than discussing charter schools

and their supposed benefits.

Which I have pointed out. Repeatedly.

If you bothered to have a discussion about charter schools and their supposed benefits, it would inevitably point out how charter schools are different from public schools.

But you'd rather create a false equation in people's minds. Again, why is that misleading tactic SO important to the charter promoters?

[mzteris]

98. I promise you I don't understand what the H you're talking about . . .

It's not Propoganda - it's my experience, my research, and my beliefs. I've tried to share that with you and everyone else.

All I get is name calling and being called a liar and mocked. I am most honestly and sincerely TRYING to understand why it is you keep saying that they are not public schools because I DON"T UNDERSTAND!

I'm just a MOM - not a troll - not a paid shill - not Arne Duncan in disguise - I don't work for Walmart or the Gates Foundation nor the Heritage Foundation nor indeed - right fing NOW I don't work ANYWHERE because I can't get a job. I've been a STAY-AT-HOME MOM for the past 16 years - and raised three kids of my own (one adopted) and 4 foster kids. I've had experience with every type of school imaginable except private because we can't afford that and religious cause I wouldn't do that (well I did have one attend a Methodist preschool, and one a Luthern preschool does that count?)

I don't know who you think I am. .I don't know why you think I have some "agenda" - other than trying to get people to better understand Charter Public Schools and stop bashing Charter Public schoolers.

If you noticed I also try and get people to better understand HOMESCHOOLING (as I did THAT, too) and stop bashing homeschoolers.

And amazingly - or maybe not so amazingly - I keep getting attacked by the same people over and over and over again who merely bash without facts. Who twist what I say into something completely different.

Look - if you want to have a CONVERSATION - then LET"S HAVE ONE! That's why I posted the damn thread to begin with - to start a dialogue and get people to understand the simple fact that - according to EVERYTHING I KNOW - Charter schools are PUBLIC schools! And for the gdlife of me, I just don't understand under what premise people keep saying theyt are not.

Now, if you would like to try and explain it to me, I will be more than happy to listen. If you don't, then I don't see the point in pursuing this "yes, it is" "no, it's not" bs........

[MattBaggins]

148. Simple test

If I moved down the street from your so called "public" charter school and walked in to enroll my kids would I be ensured they would start that semester?

Can I join the board of your school and have a say in how it runs and where the money goes?

If the answer is no to any of the questions; then the school is not "public" it might fit some faux quasi definition of public but it isn't really public now is it.

[omega minimo]

177. Thank you. More good points. The existence of them may or may not be valuable. The phony PR is bogus

[noamnety]

233. Yes to the first - and furthermore

You don't need to move in order to enroll your kids at our public school. We don't exclude students because they live on the wrong side of the tracks or aren't in the right socio-economic group to share a classroom with the other kids in the school.

By contrast, every traditional so-called "public" school can and does deny enrollment to students.

As for joining the school board, you'd have to send in an application - but we are short one spot and are encouraging people to join. I don't know of any public school where you can unilaterally decide you will join the school board. I suspect it's a hell of a lot easier to join the board at our school than at your local traditional school.

[omega minimo]

81. "A school that is exclusive about who is admitted is not a public school."

Proud2BlibKansan nailed it.

[noamnety]

89. No, that's not quite right.

Since NCLB traditional neighborhood public schools have been finding ways to shove out the underachievers and behavior problems. Sometimes they give students their choice of transferring to another school or being expelled.

They're still considered public schools.

[omega minimo]

94. Schools have always been able to do that for extreme cases. Some charters do it now by the hundreds.

Not all who apply to charters are allowed to attend.

What's NCLB?

[mzteris]

101. "some charters"

can you name these charters?

Or is that like "some say ..."

[omega minimo]

109. Good point. I wonder how prevalent that abuse is nationwide and how many charters fudge the ##s

[mzteris]

112. huh? were you talking to me? n/t

[noamnety]

104. NCLB = No Child Left Behind

"Those students represent the unintended consequence of the effort to hold schools accountable for raising standards: As students are being spurred to new levels of academic achievement and required to pass stringent Regents exams to get their high school diplomas, many schools are trying to get rid of those who may tarnish the schools' statistics by failing to graduate on time. Even though state law gives students the right to stay in high school until they are 21, many students are being counseled, or even forced, to leave long before then.

And yesterday, after declining to comment on the issue for two months, Chancellor Joel I. Klein conceded the point. ''The problem of what's happening to the students is a tragedy,'' he said, ''It's not just a few instances, it's a real issue."

(snip)

"''It's not a new problem, it's just worse,'' said Elisa Hyman, a lawyer with Advocates for Children, an advocacy group that helps students who have been pushed out gain reinstatement. ''We've had guidance counselors calling on their cellphones from bathrooms saying they've been told to get rid of kids.''"

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/31/nyregion/to-cut-failure-rate-schools-shed-students.html

That's what the traditional public schools have been up to. The charters have been a safe haven for some of those kids who have been forced out of what you think of as public schools.

[mzteris]

100. not to mention

"neighborhood" schools are usually pretty homogeneous in terms of race, income, and religion.

[Hannah Bell]

95. Nor is a school operating for-profit, as TWELVE PERCENT of charters do.

Nor is a school whose employees are "exempted" from participation in collective bargaining agreements, or where 1/2 of instructors are uncertified, or where the books & salary info aren't open to the public, etc.

[omega minimo]

99. These simple things, basic points you bring up are why there is no public discussion

and why the propaganda is so precious. The public doesn't really want our school system broken down and privatized OR our Department of Education and schools run like a BUSINESS.

:hi:

[Telly Savalas]

167. There's a public school within her district that has admission standards.

http://www.kcmsd.k12.mo.us/schools/home2.asp?schoolid=31&t=1&s=49

[Hannah Bell]

197. it's a magnet school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_College_Preparatory_Academy

[noamnety]

202. Lincoln Prep exclude kids

who don't live within the allowable boundaries, and they use entrance exams to screen kids and exclude those who don't test well enough.

Students with failing grades there are kicked out.

[Hannah Bell]

73. You're having rounding difficulties again: 11.8% rounds to 12, not 11.

[Telly Savalas]

168. How is that 0.8% material to the argument?

[Hannah Bell]

200. the erroneous rounding falsely representing the % for-profit as less than it is very material in

demonstrating charter advocates' use of statistics.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. +1

:thumbsup:

[mzteris]

48. I'll extend my plea to you -

please tell me what it is about Charter Public schools that you believe that makes them NOT public. I really don't get it. It's like you guys keep saying that water is NOT wet. . . and just expect people to accept that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. How many times do we have to have this conversation?

A school that is exclusive about who is admitted is not a public school.

[omega minimo]

61. Well there it is.

Thank you. I was running out of oxygen.

The public may apply and may not be accepted. The kids that perform poorly may be -- and hundreds are -- dumped out to make the charter school and the Teach To The Test numbers look better.

:yourock:

[mzteris]

67. Most charters don't "teach to the test" . . .

and don't give a rip about "test scores" - hallelujah!

[omega minimo]

71. Well perhaps you've not heard about the national reform proposals

that states will have to adopt to receive stimulus funds. Standardization, privatization and business model management are headed for your town.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Yep. It's a very unjust system.

I don't understand how any progressive can support it.

[omega minimo]

76. It's not progressive

if it guts the public school system and the concept of free, equitable education for the whole public.

[mzteris]

64. So magnet schools are not public

So public schools of the arts are not public?

Some schools have criteria that must be met - most don't. You don't admit a non-musician to a music school, ya know?

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. Magnet schools here are open to any child who lives in the school district

That must be another difference about the system where you live.

[noamnety]

213. And if you live a few feet on the wrong side of that district boundary

you are not entitled to that "public" educational opportunity.

[Telly Savalas]

169. So you think Lincoln Prep isn't a public school?

[omega minimo]

56. How do charter schools establish themselves in relation to the public school system?

The onus is on you. You will not convince us that they are the same thing. If you want to advocate them, WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO DO THAT instead of describing what charter schools ARE and how they operate?

[mzteris]

68. happy reading:

http://www.ed.gov/programs/charter/legislation.html

http://www.edreform.com/download/CER_2009_AR_Charter_Schools.pdf

http://www.uscharterschools.org/pub/uscs_docs/o/index.htm


How does the statute define a charter school?

Charter schools are established according to individual State charter school laws. The enactment of State charter school laws is solely a State prerogative, and the definition of a “charter school” under State law is a matter of State policy. However, in order to receive CSP funds, a charter school must meet the definition in Section 5210(1) of ESEA, which is as follows:

“The term ‘charter school’ means a public school that:

1. In accordance with a specific State statute authorizing the granting of charters to schools, is exempt from significant State or local rules that inhibit the flexible operation and management of public schools, but not from any rules relating to the other requirements of this paragraph ;
2. Is created by a developer as a public school, or is adapted by a developer from an existing public school, and is operated under public supervision and direction;
3. Operates in pursuit of a specific set of educational objectives determined by the school's developer and agreed to by the authorized public chartering agency;
4. Provides a program of elementary or secondary education, or both;
5. Is nonsectarian in its programs, admissions policies, employment practices, and all other operations, and is not affiliated with a sectarian school or religious institution;
6. Does not charge tuition;
7. Complies with the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, and Part B of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act;
8. Is a school to which parents choose to send their children, and that admits students on the basis of a lottery, if more students apply for admission than can be accommodated;
9. Agrees to comply with the same Federal and State audit requirements as do other elementary schools and secondary schools in the State, unless such requirements are specifically waived for the purpose of this program ;
10. Meets all applicable Federal, State, and local health and safety requirements;
11. Operates in accordance with State law; and
12. Has a written performance contract with the authorized public chartering agency in the State that includes a description of how student performance will be measured in charter schools pursuant to State assessments that are required of other schools and pursuant to any other assessments mutually agreeable to the authorized public chartering agency and the charter school.”
http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/guid/cspguidance03.doc.

Another excerpt from the policy site:


May a charter school be religious in nature?

No. As public schools, charter schools must be non-religious in their programs, admissions policies, governance, employment practices and all other operations, and the charter school’s curriculum must be completely secular. As with other public schools, charter schools may not provide religious instruction, but they may teach about religion from a secular perspective. And though charter schools must be neutral with respect to religion, they may play an active role in teaching civic values. The fact that some of these values are also held by religions does not make it unlawful to teach them in a charter school. Furthermore, as discussed below, faith-based and religious organizations can be involved with charter schools in many ways, and religious expression by students is allowed in charter schools to the same extent as in other public schools. See also the Department’s guidance on Constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary and secondary schools of ESEA, available at: http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/index.html .

May charter schools use public funds to support religious programs or activities?



No. All activities of a charter school must be non-religious, as is the case for all public schools. Public funds may not be used for religious purposes or to encourage religious activity. In addition, even if funded by non-public sources, religious activity may not be conducted, promoted, or encouraged during charter school activities by charter school employees or by other persons working with charter schools. However, to the extent that their involvement promotes academic learning and the mission of the charter school, religious organizations and their members may partner with and be involved with charter schools so long as the charter school’s decision to partner with the religious organization is made without regard to the religious character or affiliation of the organization and is not otherwise reasonably perceived as an endorsement of religion.

********

[omega minimo]

82. Where, please?

[omega minimo]

96. Where in the thread? You said you'd already posted an answer.

Thanks for the overload of links. If there's anywhere that you are actually discussing the topic, rather than promoting the propaganda, please let us know.

[mzteris]

102. I thought I'd posted it, I was mistaken

I'm sorry.

You wanted the information - I gave it to you. I've tried to synthesize it before and accused of making s up - so - here- read.

If you're too lazy to read all the links, then look at the excerpt I posted . ..

[omega minimo]

107. Thank you. It would also be nice to read your own words and ideas.

:thumbsup:

[mzteris]

110. I HAVE BEEN!

I dunno what else to say.

I'm sorry if I'm getting a little 'techy' about this and if I've been snarky to you at some points, but truly - I am so confused as to what you are saying and what it is you want from me (besides your wanting me to say I'm wrong, which I'm not, so I won't. :) )

[mzteris]

122. every state has it's own rules

and every district -

but there is a fundamental fact of ALL charter schools and that is that they are PUBLIC. If you want to go read every state's and every districts regs on the subject, be my guest. You'll find that every single one of them says the same thing: Charter Schools are PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

[omega minimo]

132. "A school that is exclusive about who is admitted is not a public school."

You dodged the question. Charter schools are independent of public school system requirements. So they're not the same.

You've returned to your fundamental propaganda, made more meaningless by the fact that you haven't discussed charter schools here at all.

Just answer then, why are you so fixated on that one thing?

[MattBaggins]

149. You want to make ludicrous statements that define sand as water

and then expect people to swallow it.

[TankLV]

141. THEY ARE NOT "PUBLIC" - THEY ARE "PRIVATE" SCHOOLS RUN BY CORPORATIONS!!!!

Stop with the BULLSHIT already - you're no better than the TEABAGGERS!!!

[Telly Savalas]

170. Name the corporations that run charter schools in the State of Missouri.

[EndersDame]

29. I would not have my High School diploma if it were not for a charter school

I really hated public school and had to drop out when my mom had severe medical problems American Youth Works Charter school helped me get my diploma in a timely fashion and had smaller classes as well as a better variety. They also accommodated working , pregnant and students who were parents. They also had an Americorps program I worked in the morning on a low income Green Home and in the Afternoon I went to class

http://americanyouthworks.org/

[mzteris]

32. That is great!

Good for you! Though I warn you, some will say you are "selfish" for "getting yours" and I(supposedly) leaving other traditional-school-board-run-public-schoolers to languish to their fate.

I'm really glad it worked out for you. Thanks for posting another positive Charter Public school experience. There is Wwaaaaaaaaayyyyyy too much disinformation being thrown around about Charter Public Schools.

[omega minimo]

34. Well if you use the term "public charter schools"

that's that much less disinformation being thrown around. :toast:



"Public charter schools" are charter schools the public is allowed to apply to. This is not the same as "the public schools" and the public school system that is impacted -- for good or bad -- by independent, public charter schools.

[mzteris]

38. Of course! All Charter schools are PUBLIC schools! n/t

[omega minimo]

42. Back to the lie? The term is "public charter schools." Use it correctly and quit lying to the public

edit for the correct term

[mzteris]

50. Yeah - thecorrect term IS PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS

Because they ARE PUBLIC!

geesh

:banghead:

[omega minimo]

59. They are charter schools, sponsored by the public school system and independent of it.

Your investment in the propaganda and inability to make a statement even that simple, makes this whole mess stink worse than it already did.

PEOPLE IS NOT STUPID.

CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE CHARTER SCHOOLS AND THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE SOMETHING ELSE.
SOME CHARTERS LET THE PUBLIC APPLY. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM "PUBLIC SCHOOLS."

Charter schools that the public may attend are public charter schools, they are not public schools.



No matter who repeats the lie.

[mzteris]

105. All Charter schools are Public schools.

That is the truth. That is a fact. Every single source says so and just because you don't like it doesn't make it not so.

You have yet to "prove" anything. Not. one. single. solititary. fact. You have your OPINION and that is it. I have posted ample evidence of the fact Charter Schools Are PUBLIC schools. What have you posted but derisive comments?

[omega minimo]

114. I have posted the correct terms and used your sources.

You are the one who is "lazy" and won't use the correct terms or has some other agenda for attempting to fool people into falsely equating charter and public.

[mzteris]

117. I have no idea what you're talking about

What "correct term" and "what source" are you talking about? You've posted nothing but your opinion from what I can see. Please please please point out to me just where you post anything with a legitimate source attached to it. . .


edit 'cause my first response was rude. I'm sorry.

[EndersDame]

79. My Boyfriends little sister dropped out after one week of traditional bs high school

She is now going to the Katherine Anne Porter Charter School . Her class sizes are dramatically smaller and has the option of taking cool classes like organic gardening Yoga Karate or Environmental Tech/Construction Arts.Her big sister went there and they took the seniors to Austin to interact with state legislators on issues facing education! Oh well I guess she will miss out on required pep rallies (not even joking they forced all students to attend)

[noamnety]

240. We had a worse experience with mandatory pep rallies.

When my kid was still in the traditional school, they had mandatory pep rallies where they had to learn and sing school wide songs praising the virtues of our high stakes testing.

look at this:

The M.E.A.P. Rally is presented to all third through eleventh grade students. Third grade students are actively involved and introduced to the process in anticipation of them preparing for the testing period when they enter fourth grade. Third grade students will attend the M.E.A.P. Rally with fourth and fifth grade students. K- 2nd grade students are not involved, yet, they will hear about the event from their teachers and older peers and excitedly wait until they become third graders.

(snip)

Utilization of M.E.A.P. Rally Song during test period

Fourth and fifth grade students will hear the BEAT the M.E.A.P. song three times a day during testing period.

1. Once in the morning before M.E.A.P. testing begins

2. Once during scheduled snack break, where students are allowed bathroom, snack, and casually communicate with their peers, or in which time they may share any questions or concerns with classroom teacher.

3. Once at the end of the school day to reinforce the confidence and effort of students and in preparation for the next test period.

Classroom incentives may be incorporated in the BEAT the M.E.A.P. activity, i.e. Posters, buttons, cassette or CD of Rally song, balloons, etc.
* Educators and facilitators guide for classroom available!

Because of the nature of the BEAT the M.E.A.P. Rallies, and the intention to include entire school districts, third through eleventh graders, the best facility for operation to serve more students at once is most effective. The more schools served in your district, less the cost to bring this and other programs to your school!

http://www.mrrudy.com/curricula2.htm

Seriously, how fucked up is that? The younger kids will "excitedly" wait until they can do standardized tests!! Woohooo!!!
I prefered not to have the mandatory pro-NCLB brainwashing sessions for my kid.

[omega minimo]

33. That's fine. Charter schools are not public schools and there is a lot of abuse of programs

exactly like yours.

I'm glad that it was a positive experience for you.

If people want to advocate charter schools and be honest about the distinctions and quit calling them "public schools" to mislead people, a healthy discussion could occur. Unfortunately, powerful proponents are trying to avoid public discussion and push charterization and privatization on the public, locally and nationally. With false propaganda.

[EndersDame]

62. They should be held financially accountable

From my Alma Mater's website
American YouthWorks (AYW) is an efficient, cost-effective vehicle for reclaiming the lives of our at-risk youth. 85.6 cents of every dollar AYW raises is spent on direct services at an average annual participant direct cost of only $8,076. Every private sector dollar AYW raises is leveraged 5-to-1 with AmeriCorps, TEA, and other government money.

Moreover, AYW’s charter schools and community service programs have an immediate beneficial impact on our local economy.

AYW raises more than $5 million each year from AmeriCorps and other federal, state, and local programs.


What is great about being outside the normal Texas public high school system is we were able to have frank and honest Sex ed discussions. My health teacher used a dildo to show how to use a condom! We even had a clinic where we could get tested for STD's and given condoms and dental dams for free!

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. Let's call them publicly financed schools

Or taxpayer funded schools. But you are correct, it is misleading and downright dishonest to call them public schools.

[omega minimo]

92. Good ideas

How about "Registered Charter Schools" or "Sponsored Charter Schools" which reflects that they are independent of the public school system and not subject to many requirements -- including release of statistics and records --but are registered or sponsored by the local public school district.

[MattBaggins]

151. Your experience should have been proveded to you as well as

a continued education for pregnant teens but it does not require privatization of schools to fix such glaring problems.

[EndersDame]

157. Well American YouthWorks is a non profit

Here is their mission statement
AYW is a comprehensive human investment organization that transforms young people into self-sufficient adults through education, job training and community service. Each day, AYW serves a diverse population (57% Hispanic, 21% African-American, and 22% Anglo) of 500 youth, ages 16–26 who are disproportionately poor with 88% coming from low-income households.

We use a holistic approach: for those who need a high school diploma, AYW operates a charter high school. Those seeking job training can participate in one of our AmeriCorps programs: Casa Verde Builders, Environmental Corps, or Computer Corps, which provide a living stipend and a college or technical school educational award.

AYW has also created a strong support network to assist with such troubles as an unstable home life, hunger, homelessness, or substance abuse. We offer counseling, health care, career placement services and college preparation, based on the individual needs of each student.

American YouthWorks (AYW) is an efficient, cost-effective vehicle for reclaiming the lives of our at-risk youth. 85.6 cents of every dollar AYW raises is spent on direct services at an average annual participant direct cost of only $8,076. Every private sector dollar AYW raises is leveraged 5-to-1 with AmeriCorps, TEA, and other government money.

Moreover, AYW’s charter schools and community service programs have an immediate beneficial impact on our local economy.

AYW raises more than $5 million each year from AmeriCorps and other federal, state, and local programs.



What is great about being outside the normal Texas public high school system is we were able to have frank and honest Sex ed discussions. My health teacher used a dildo to show how to use a condom! We even had a clinic where we could get tested for STD's and given condoms and dental dams for free! You just could not do these things in a normal school


On edit from the front page of site
AYW is an innovative nonprofit run with free-market efficiency (over 89% of the funds we raise are spent on direct services). We leverage private contributions and public support from organizations like AmeriCorps to help at-risk youth help themselves and their communities.

http://americanyouthworks.org/

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. They are definitely not succeeding where I teach

and are the main reason our district is in dire financial straits.

Charters are allowed to be selective about who they admit.

They are allowed to kick kids out without due process.

I support public schools that are governed by a local school board and regulated by state and federal laws that apply to all public schools. This is not true of charters here. I am glad they work where you are but that success is not duplicated in every community. I do not support charter schools.

[mzteris]

51. so just because "some" charter schools

are bad, you think they should ALL be shut down?

That makes as much sense as saying that just because some traditional school-board-run-public schools are bad that they should all be shut down!

I would really love to see the criteria for the charter schools in your area. . .

A lot of people fail to realize that some of the charters "appear" to be poor due to test scores, but many kids who are - and have been - struggling in a traditional school-board-run-public school - have fled to the charters. Thus they actually a preponderance of kids who had been under-performing and are still trying to improve.

Charter public schools ARE regulated by state and federal laws that apply to all public schools - because they ARE public schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. And kids flee our charters every day and return to traditional public schools

Like I said, just because they work where you are doesn't make them successful everywhere. And the laws that regulate them in your state are only applicable in your state. They are not "regulated by state and federal laws that apply to all public schools" here. And from what madfloridian has posted it sounds like they are not regulated by the same laws in Florida either.

[mzteris]

116. hell nearly all the schools in FLA suck .. .

and just because they don't work where you are doesn't mean they aren't successful elsewhere.

What state do you teach in again? MO or Kansas? I'd like to look at their charter info.

[sandnsea]

45. That's exactly right

and teachers better start respecting parents' RIGHT to know that best practices and quality curriculums are being implemented in every school.

I am sick of teachers pretending there is only one way to teach a student when we all know that's bullshit on its face. Lots of parents went to college too.

[EndersDame]

133. I totally agree At my Alma Mater a big emphasis was Service Learning

We had the option of working on a low income green house in the morning and classes in the after noon . It is amazing how much math makes sense when there is pratical applications for it. We also learned alot about energy that way.

[omega minimo]

65. "A school that is exclusive about who is admitted is not a public school."

Proud2BlibKansan nailed it.

[noamnety]

136. You can keep repeating that - but it's not accurate.

Magnets prove that out.

[omega minimo]

88. Your own OP makes the distinction between "charter and traditional public schools"

"...charter and traditional public schools" meaning charter public schools and traditional public schools.

Don't try to equate Charter and Public as in Charter and Traditional because they are NOT the same thing.

You want to call them Charter Public Schools, fine. Don't call them Public Schools because that's something else.

You want to call the Public Schools "Traditional Public Schools," fine. PLEASE USE THE CORRECT TERMS.

The fact that "traditional" is used in the OP quote at least acknowledges what is meant traditionally by "public schools."

Being so dense about it when it's right there in the quote makes the propaganda even more suspect.

Why is the public being bamboozled with no public discussion?

:evilfrown:

[mzteris]

119. huh?

This made absolutely no sense.

Yeah - "charter and tradition public schools" - as in Charter public schools and traditional public schools - - -

No they're not the SAME thing - thank goodness, but they are both PUBLIC . . .

"You want to call them Charter Public Schools, fine. Don't call them Public Schools because that's something else."

HUH? :crazy:

[omega minimo]

124. Don't equate "charter" with "public." Don't try to fool the public. Use the correct terms.

Read the posts and quit pretending not to understand them.

[mzteris]

127. WTF dude

I don't understand your posts because you aren't making a damn bit of sense.

[omega minimo]

129. People know what "public schools" means. Your own sources acknowledge the distinction

between charter schools and public schools.

This dumb game you're playing is unconvincing. Again, the fixation with fooling the public to think that "charter = public" is propaganda, which stinks even more after your thread than it did before.

[noamnety]

139. I think they would really like it

if you would conveniently forget to use the word "public" when you refer to "charters" - as they've been doing, even though they are "public charters." :D

They'd like you to use language to imply that only schools which limit enrollment by geographic residency are public.

[omega minimo]

173. It's very clearly stated

in my posts, what the related terms are. Including the contrast between "public charter" and "traditional public." If that's the way to sort this out and end the insane bullshit the OP is pushing, so be it. Otherwise these word games and the smug incomprehension is truly offensive.

The main objection is to equating "charter" with "public" which the OP insists on.

If you want to conveniently remember to include the word charter when you use the word public, it would help.

[TankLV]

138. ALL the Charter Schools I know about are PRIVATELY OWNED!!! NOT "public" at all!!!

From large corrupt EDISON Schools, to others, who go BANKRUPT after paying HIGH EXECUTIVE SALARIES and leave the CHILDREN at the mercy of TAXPAYERS!!!

Charter Schools are in no way shape or form "public"!!!

[noamnety]

142. You're mistaken:

"Charter Schools are in no way shape or form "public"!!!"

It sounds like the ones you are familiar with all fall within the 12 percent. That might be a function of where you live and your state laws, I don't know.

But if you think all (or even most) fall into that category, based on your personal observations, you are mistaken.

[TankLV]

204. You have FAILED to prove otherwise, and every time we give you examples of why

"Charter" schools are PRIVATE CORPORATIONS and not "public" at all, you say - "that's only ONE example.

YOUR ENTIRE PREMISE IS BULLSHIT, and WE have PROVEN it on this thead OVER AND OVER.

[noamnety]

210. No posts here "prove"

that charters are all private corporations - there are simply posts making the claim falsely. It can't be proven because it's not true. There are some charters run by corporations, and most are not. That's spelled out in reply #1 to this thread.

Our local charter has no corporate affiliation at all, no private people running it, it's non profit in EXACTLY the same way as any other public school. The way we are structured, there are public school districts associated with cities and they fall under the oversight and management of the county intermediate school district (ISD). The charter school is chartered by that ISD. When Plante Moran audits the finances of the ISD's schools, that includes the neighborhood schools and the charter, alike. When payroll checks are cut, it's the same employees cutting the checks for teachers, whether they work at a neighborhood school or the charter. When there are changes in state curriculum requirements, the same folks from the ISD run training for staff members to get them in compliance regardless of which type school they teach in. When the charter purchases equipment - even a box of pens for the classroom - the purchase order goes through the ISD same as any other school. The special ed programs all have oversight at the ISD and the staff for that trains together.

The differences:

We don't exclude people who live on the wrong side of an arbitrary boundary.
We don't have the focus on sports that ALL the neighborhood schools have.
We have a strong focus on the arts.

In summary: You can't "prove" something that isn't true.

[demgurl]

231. Charter schools are privately run but they are public schools.

We get the same tax dollars as any other public school for each student in our classrooms. It would be even better if it were run they way you say. None of our tax dollars would be used and no tuition paid to the schools by parents.

Charter school are run by individuals rather than the government. We are subject to all public school laws for our state. Our parents pay no tuition (that would make it a private school rather than a charter)

[boppers]

152. Great OP, great discussion, great hashing out of opinions.

I'm impressed by this thread, both for the dissent and agreement.

*THIS* is why I read DU.

[fascisthunter]

153. Charter Schools are not Public Schools

if they were, no one here would have a problem with them...

[noamnety]

159. That's a logical fallacy. (nt)

[fascisthunter]

161. no... it's a reality you are fighting against

notice how no one recs this thread or unreccing it?

[Telly Savalas]

171. The number of recs in a thread are the ultimate measure of the validity of an idea?

[fascisthunter]

205. in this case yes

[omega minimo]

174. It's the truth and the pretense and phoniness of pretending there is no difference

will backfire, as it has here.

Maybe you can answer: why are proponents of charter schools so invested in fooling the public into thinking they're the same thing as the public schools.

(Which they're not and you know it so don't bother):hi:

[noamnety]

175. Why don't you ask the American Federation of Teachers?

"Charter schools are public schools, so it makes little sense to pit one type of school against the other."

Why do you suppose they'd say such a thing?

[omega minimo]

176. OK this willful ignorance in an education thread, these evasive games, worse than the bigot idiots

:thumbsdown:

[noamnety]

178. You disagree with both major teacher unions.

While I respect your views in many areas on this board, it's pretty clear you don't work in education (weren't you the one asking what NCLB was?)

I have to believe if there's ignorance here, it's not coming from the unions who represent the interests of public school teachers. Isn't it possible that in this one area they know more about it than you?

If they (the AFT and NEA) have any bias, it's toward protecting the interests of public education and public school teachers. They are saying explicitly that what you are doing here is counter productive and misguided, and they are saying that charters ARE public schools (with the acknowledged exception of the 12 percent that aren't, see OP's own response #1 to this thread).

[omega minimo]

180. Their propaganda is counter productive and misguided. The attempt to equate charter and public is

stupid and offensive.

If they were not trying to bullshit the public -- for whatever reasons -- they would use clear, rather than deceptive language. They -- and you -- would acknowledge the truth in the viewpoint of "traditional public schools" instead of try to pretend not to understand and force everyone to adopt their meaningless lingo.

How stupid do they think we are?

[Odin2005]

179. I see the defenders of the educational status quo are alread declaring the OP evil.

Including many posters I normally respect, sadly.

Certain special interests are pushing the "CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE A CORPORATIST CONSPIRACY" lie because reform threatens their strangle-hold on the education system. It is in their selfish self-interest to keep schools stuck into a model invented in the 18th century. You can see this with how schools never seem to get the potential uses of technology, the Internet and educational video games especially, in education, because they don't fit with the educational status quo.

IMO most of these so-called education "experts" on all sides are a bunch of short-sighted morons.

[omega minimo]

181. The deception is evil. The lack of public discussion is reprehensible. And you are wrong

The thrust of the plan IS to have education privatized and run like business, not education. There are huge pots of money and lots of "nonprofits" who know all the ways to get around the rules and profit bigtime. The results send the public school system into worse condition, when funds and choice students are siphoned off.

The bullshit propaganda language doesn't help matters. It's intended to fool people and it just pisses off the people who actually care about education.

[noamnety]

182. The teachers unions don't care about education?

Really? The unions are using propaganda language to deceive the public into destroying public education?


I knew Bush's old education secretary thought the teachers unions were evil, but I didn't realize progressives agreed with him.

[omega minimo]

184. That's more deflective bullshit right there. No one said that.

[noamnety]

187. The "propaganda language" and statements you are objecting to

is language put out by the teacher's union. People are bent out of shape about an OP that is just a quote by a teacher's union.

I think you need to step back and reflect on that.

[omega minimo]

188. Maybe you should reflect on the reform agenda of charters that includes union busting.

:think:

[noamnety]

192. and I'm sure you understand that better

than the heads of the teacher unions who support the charters and are asking that you stop pitting the one type of public school against the other. The union people are probably just too stupid to see it as clearly as you do. ;)

[omega minimo]

193. Your obnoxious goading makes just as bad as impression as the intentionally misleading language

Kiss off.

[Odin2005]

186. IMO the who education system is broken byond redemtion, not to mention out-dated.

If I were in charge I would overhaul it completely. Certainly in our high-tech Internet Age where a Great Library's worth of knowledge is at our fingertips age we can do better. our current way of doing public education goes all the way back to the early 1800s, before electronic communication and long before the Internet. In today's age independent study and homeschooling is far easier than ever before, yet if you home-school you are assumed to be a Fundy nut-job, or are called an evil person who is denying the public schools "their" money.

An untapped area I see is in educational video games games, which have never had their potential truely tapped because out schools are ran by people to old to have played video games and may be inclined to dismiss video games as "brain-rotting" and other technophobic nonsense. Imagine educational role-playing games placing a person in Revolutionary War America, or Medieval France, or Ancient Greece, or the seas of the Cambrian period, or a tropical forest, making things like history, paleontology, and nature interesting for kids.

[omega minimo]

189. Good points. Thanks OD2

One thing to remember is that the public schools have served to even the playing field in communities and also served business by producing good workers.

NOW the businesses want to run the schools LIKE businesses. It's never been this blatant that the children are the product and the business class are going to call the shots.

There is potential in gaming as you point out. However, one important aspect of public schools is bringing people together. We need to not lose that. Gaming in a mixed balance could be beneficial. Too much -- without other cultural ways to transmit history and lessons, would not be.

[Odin2005]

191. IMO the education "experts" are simply flailing around for solutions, not getting the real problem.

With special interests on various sides, the textbook manufacturers, the school supplies companies, the teachers' unions, corporations wanting a population of complaint sheep, wannabe social engineers of every ideological stripe, etc. are grasping at the ideas generated by these "experts", none of them understanding that the world is passing all of them by.

I'm of the opinion that the "socialization" argument for public schools over home-schooling one's kid is complete nonsense, "socialization" sounds like a euphemism for social engineering indoctrination into groupthink. Then again, I have had horrible experiences from my school days, and have PTSD because of it (bullied by not only my peers but by faculty as well) so my dislike of how public schools work is always colored by that.

[omega minimo]

196. No, not homeschooling, video games.

I was referring to video games not homeschooling. Too much gaming at school that might take time from other cultural ways to learn.

"There is potential in gaming as you point out. However, one important aspect of public schools is bringing people together. We need to not lose that. Gaming in a mixed balance could be beneficial. Too much -- without other cultural ways to transmit history and lessons, would not be."



Also, re: your previous comments, read Ipaints post just below....

[Odin2005]

198. I'm confused my what you mean by "other CULTURAL ways" to learn.

IMO each person learns differently, and so each kid should be allowed to learn differently. I am an extremely visual learner, learning best by reading and visual interactive stuff and but another person might be auditory learning, learning best by more traditional lectures, while a third person may be a kinesthetic learner, learning best by hands-on practical activity.

[omega minimo]

199. I mean kids not at school sucked up into games for too long, cut off from their environment.

[ipaint]

190. It's no conspiracy.

Milton Friedman has been pushing this for years. He views charter schools as the stepping stone to vouchers and privatization. It's no secret. An underfunded NCLB was instituted to specifically to create public school testing factories in order to produce the level of failure needed to justify the takeover of public funds by semi public charter schools. He swooped down on new orleans after katrina and advocated gutting what was left of the public school system in favor of a private charter school program. Guess what happen, in record time no less.

None of this is a secret conspiracy. They openly want public schools privatized.

Friedman and his ilk like the gates foundation, the waltons etc are neo liberals they believe in:

Free market, eliminating social services, deregulation, privatization and the elimination of community or the common good.

Charter schools are just one vehicle used to achieve those goals.

Look up Pinochet, the Chicago boys and Chile. That is what they are doing here.


If there is anything shortsighted about this situation it's the naivety and gross ignorance on the part of people who can't be bothered to do their homework.

[omega minimo]

194. An educational PNAC

:evilfrown: Corporate government. Corporate education. Corporate population.

[rucky]

183. I taught at a charter school.

run by a for-profit corporation that builds Title 1 schools in urban areas. They actively recruit IEP and special ed kids. They receive the federal funding to serve special needs, and make their profit by underdelivering and cutting corners. I had 10 IEP kids in my class, including two emotionally disturbed and one prone to violence. They were pulled out for an hour a week, and other than that, there were no intervention specialists or aides in the classroom.

They were served grilled cheese for lunch 2-3 times/week. There was no recess, and the school day lasted longer than the district-run elemenatry schools (7:30 am to 4:30 pm) which was easier on the parents, but you could imagine that there wasn't alot of education happening after 2pm or so. There was no teacher's union, and I was fired at-will after enrollment dropped midyear. The other teachers who were there the previous year earned bonuses they never received for test scores.

This crap would have never happened in a district-run school - or if it did, there'd be a clear process to challenge these practices. Funds that should've gone to the district went here instead. A couple of teachers and myself complained to the state BOE, but I didn't stick around long enough to see if that went anywhere.

Maybe there are some good charter schools out there, but the room for abuse is immense in a privatized environment.

[omega minimo]

185. Maybe there are some good charter schools out there, but the room for abuse is immense in a privatiz

"Maybe there are some good charter schools out there, but the room for abuse is immense in a privatized environment."

Thank you. The communities who are suffering from these kinds of takeovers are really screwn right now.

[noamnety]

203. The room for abuse is immense in all schools, unfortunately.

The larger the district, the more chance for abuse. (More funds available, more contracts you can get bribes for - and the contracts support a number of schools instead of just one, more people to collude with.)

"Five officials have been charged with multiple felonies for embezzling public education funds in a beleaguered U.S. city that recently saw a high-profile councilwoman plead guilty to bribery and its corrupt mayor go to jail.
The cash-strapped Detroit Public School employees operated a widespread corruption scheme over six years, openly stealing tens of thousands of dollars from the system, taking illegal kickbacks and paying friends who never did any work for the district."
http://michigan-blogger.com/detroit-public-school-system-exposed/

"(06/29/06 -- RALEIGH) (WTVD) -- A judge has sentenced a former Wake County school employee who confessed to embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars."
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=4318042

"A former bookkeeper for Loudoun County public schools, accused of stealing more than $204,000 from a substitute teachers fund, pleaded guilty Friday to three charges of embezzlement and agreed to make restitution."
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-381438.html

"TEMPE, AZ -- A yearlong investigation of the disappearance of $192,000 from the Tempe Union High School District has ended in the indictment of the former bookstore manager of McClintock High School, according to a Wednesday report. " http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-woman-indicted-for-192K-school-embezzlement/p6AeJbR85ES5fUy5QBIiDg.cspx

"Genesee County Prosecutor David Leyton announced today that a former Montrose community Schools payroll clerk has been charged with 10 felony counts related to her embezzlement of more than $1.1 million of school district funds." http://www.co.genesee.mi.us/Prosecutors/News%20Montrose%20Schools%20Embezzlement%20Media%20Advisory.htm

"Administrators say Patricia Susan Lowry was regarded as a trusted union officer and Van Dyke Public Schools employee for nearly two decades. But when the account she managed was overdrawn in May, officials said they learned the 50-year-old union treasurer had been helping herself to more than $110,000 in union dues and school funds over the past six years. " http://www.newstin.com/rel/us/en-010-016996337

"When Bob^2 (Robert Bobb) was appointed to fix DPS, he had a few problems to contend with, to put it mildly. All of the corruption had to be tackled. Ghosts were collecting paychecks. Dead people collecting health benefits. An audit showed that 97.4% of the schools within DPS cannot keep track of its own funds." http://theblogprof.blogspot.com/2009/08/culture-of-corruption-more-embezzlement.html

I already linked above a scheme in the New York Public schools to force out low achieving students.

Most of us heard during the Bush years about large public schools faking their test results.

Most of us have heard about traditional public schools conducting illegal strip searches of their female students. (If that had happened at a school of choice, they could simply opt to leave. Without that, they have to go back to spend day after day with the same staff members who abused them.)

I'm not claiming charters are immune to this, but claiming opportunities for abuse don't exist or are rare at traditional public schools isn't credible.

[ipaint]

207. So we address it.

Why create another tier of semi private schools backed by neoliberal billionaires who are openly announcing they want to privatize the public schools.

This is the brainchild of Milton Friedman. He wanted vouchers and considered charter schools the stepping stone to full privatization. He advocated his partners in crime, on his deathbed, to swoop down on new orleans after katrina and institute private charter schools citywide. And they did.

google pinochet friedman and chile if you want to see the extent of the horror these poor excuses for human beings want to visit on us. Charter schools are just a part of the destruction their extreme version of privatization will wrought.
It's disgusting and to find apologists pushing neoliberal policies in the white house and here is tragic.

[noamnety]

212. The local charter here is not "semi-private"

in any way shape or form.

I oppose the use of public funds going to corporations, whether it's a bank bailout, a for-profit charter school, a nonprofit charter school where a corporation magically ends up owning the property or equipment if it closes.

I fully support public schools that don't exclude students based on arbitrary geographical boundaries.

I oppose tax dollars being used for public schools which exclude students based on those boundaries. There's no reason a student should be kept out of a great tax-funded school and forced to remain in one that doesn't even pass a basic safety inspection simply because they live south of 8 mile.

A lot of people in this thread are refusing to acknowledge that the current system is incredibly racist (even though those test scores they keep pointing to bear that out) and classist. Whatever fears you have about how the charters will negatively impact poor neighborhoods by design - I gotta tell you, it has already been accomplished without charters. You think the current traditional public school system isn't harming entire communities and destroying people's lives? The graduation rate in Detroit is 20% for males. More than half the people incarcerated in Michigan are drop outs. The fact that you think we need to look at Chile to see examples of things gone horribly horribly wrong says something about your mindset.

I fully support a variety of truly public schools with equitable funding - and making them ALL schools of choice. If we had that, we wouldn't need the charters. Right now the only "choice" is you can go to school A which is grossly underfunded, set up to serve thousands of students, runs a traditional curriculum and a strong sports program ... or if there's room, maybe you'll be allowed to attend School B in the same district, which is grossly underfunded, set up to serve thousands of students, runs a traditional curriculum and a strong sports program. A choice of this stale twinkie with mold or that stale twinkie with mold is not a choice.

I don't support forcing some entire communities into eating the stale twinkie with mold while the communities in the nicer neighborhoods are eating whole wheat bread, fresh fruit and veggies, and homemade soup - and pretending that's "fair" in some way because they are both "public." "Public" isn't a magic word that makes everything fair, and I'd have thought anyone in education would have learned that by now.

[ipaint]

216. I am not talking about your local charter.

At some point folks are going to have to take a step back and look at exactly who they are bedding down with.

Getting your small piece of the pie is not what this is about.

Being a tool of neoliberal vulture capitalists is. They've been starving public schools and poor neighborhoods for 30 years so that today folks like you will willingly and happily accept their answer to a problem they created.

They are behind every policy that has devastated the poor communities and schools. Nafta, welfare reform, cuts in social safety nets, food stamps, public education funding, unions, decent pay...the list is endless. These are the people you are looking to for alternatives?

That stale twinkie- they've been shoving it down your throat for decades. Wake up.

[noamnety]

220. The neoliberals are behind the traditional public schools as well.

They are behind charters, they are behind neighborhood schools, as you rightly point out. You and I both are in bed with them, because it's the only bed in town.

If we refused to support any school they've had massive influence over, we wouldn't have any schools at all.

[ipaint]

221. Yes, in the destruction of the public schools, not in their creation.

I'm not in that bed with you and the neo liberals and don't attempt to put me there to justify your choice to bed down with them.

I don't support that destruction which includes their charter school baloney. You do.

[noamnety]

242. Are you familiar with Woodrow Wilson's vision for public schools? (nt)

[ipaint]

269. I know the president of the Woodrow Wilson foundation strongly favors

tying teachers salaries to student performance. He also was involved with the carnegie institute which pushes charter schools with grant money. The charter school advocates think he's god's gift to the ongoing discrediting of public schools and teachers.

Before you tell me how wonderful these foundations are I believe all at their heart are only interested in social engineering and control through manipulation of what we teach, learn and think. Their money, good works and connections don't impress me and if anything prove my point. Their founders where the prime leaches of society in their day and made thier money on the backs of the now dead relatives of the very people they seek to "lift out of poverty and despair".

The Carnegie institute was a leading eugenics think tank in the 1900's and must like racism today, that nastiness doesn't disappear in a couple generations.

Woodrow Wilson and Prescott Bush, Churchill, T. Roosevelt etc. all were involved.

Todays kinder gentler wealthy foundations are interested in engineering and producing citizens they can use to further their goals.

Read War Against the Weak: Eugenics and America's Campaign to Create a Master Race by Edwin Black

[noamnety]

280. My own summary of Wilson's views:

(which are a strong influence on the current public school system)

The basic concept behind his thinking was that it was good for capitalism for us to have public education - but not just any public education system. Specifically, he advocated a two-tiered system of education - one that creates a small class of the "thinkers" who run the country (politics and business), and another lower tier that produces a larger class of people who are educated well enough to perform their jobs efficiently, but also are conditioned to be subservient to authority so they don't get too uppity on the job.

Public schools have been organized by design in a way that produces good docile productive workers to benefit capitalists (those with capital). I think we call that "contributing members of society."

[ipaint]

218. One more thing

"The fact that you think we need to look at Chile to see examples of things gone horribly horribly wrong says something about your mindset."


And the fact you refuse to see the architects of the destruction of chile are behind charter schools says volumes about your extreme naivete.

[noamnety]

222. I think those who put their faith in the current system

and don't acknowledge that it's having a devastating effect on communities are demonstrating "extreme naivete."

So we can both check that insult off our lists.

[ipaint]

224. There isn't a perfect system. Improvements are a must. But

there is only one that promotes democracy, citizenship and responsibility. Corporate controlled charter schools by their nature are anti-democratic/pro fascist. Neo liberal ideals and the push for privatization of everything government and thereby citizenship will kill democracy.

[noamnety]

244. It's not an honest debate tactic

to continually define all charters by attributes that only apply to a small minority of them.

[Umbral]

206. Where I live, Charter Schools are instruments of the right wing

The intent is to siphon money from public education and ultimately wrest control of education from the federal government. The yokels here were dead set against the formation of the Department of Education and view it as some sort of sinister plot to subvert their children. But hey, I live in Utah, things may be completely different in other parts of the country. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are.

[ipaint]

208. They aren't.

It may be a little more open but this type of stealth take over is happening everywhere. That's the plan.

[omega minimo]

209. So they found a way to clone people, after all.

:thumbsdown:

[Umbral]

214. They don't even pretend to hide it.

There is allot of antipathy here towards the DoE, mainly because the Mormon Church opposed its formation. The proponents of Charter Schools/Vouchers tried to use this to their advantage. They actually got the program signed into law. That's not really an accomplishment, the Utah legislature is rife with right wing zealots and other nut-bags. Here's an article praising the legislation:

http://www.heritage.org/research/education/wm1362.cfm

Yeah, that link goes to the Heritage Foundation - like that doesn't speak volumes. Fortunately the issue was forced to a referendum which failed gloriously. I actually felt a brief moment of pride, something I don't think I've felt about Utah before or since.

[LWolf]

238. No. That's how the charter movement got started across the nation.

Only now, they are also instruments of the centrists.

[tigereye]

219. nicely said!

[ipaint]

223. For Democracy:Why Corporatizing Public Schools Puts a Nation at Risk

"In Seattle, Washington, former general
John Staton, who also had no previous
experience in education, was hired “by
the Seattle School District at a CEO
salary level of $175,000” (p. 89). Staton,
like Becton, represented a “tight-fisted
discipline in his schools” (p. 89). But
what both men really have in common is
the hope of two communities wanting
someone to take control, to bring order
and get results. The fact that this hope is
placed with military men, rather than
with educators, tells just how far we’ve
gone as a nation toward surrendering
public services and the public sphere to
the military, corporations and commercial
interests in general. Herein lies the
threat to democracy, for with this willingness,
even eagerness, to let the private
sector take charge, communities greatly
diminish their democratic responsibilities
and obligations as well as their privileges.
The reliance on private forces (military
and corporate) dulls and distracts citizens
from the work of democracy and the benefits
such work ensures."

http://aera.net/uploadedFiles/Journals_and_Publications/Journals/Educational_Researcher/3009/AERA3009_BookRev_Scapp.pdf

bold is mine.

[noamnety]

235. I could be wrong

but I think everyone in this thread, including those who advocate for more public choices, oppose the privatization of schools and/or handing them over to corporations. I haven't seen anyone here supporting that.

[ipaint]

241. If you support charter schools that is exactly what are contributing to.

Charter schools that use public finds may work for you individually but expanded it is a death sentence for real public education.


It's the same choice being made regarding privatized health ins and a privatized military, etc. Do you want democracy or privatized corporate control.

[noamnety]

243. Public charter schools are a public option, not privatized.

I won't play your false dichotomy game on that one.

Can you point me to any place ever on DU (or elsewhere) where you've spoken out with half this much passion against rich districts excluding poor kids from surrounding areas their better schools?

Can you point me to any place ever on DU (or elsewhere) where you've spoken out with half this much passion against rich districts using local taxes to make their exclusive "public" schools superior to the ones other public school kids are allowed to attend?

If the people here who opposed charter schools advocated open enrollment at every public school, I wouldn't be so overwhelmed by the hypocrisy.

[ipaint]

250. About as much of a public option as the public option in health care reform.

You've bought the corporate propaganda hook line a sinker.

Your choice. If the history of charter schools and the endless line up of neoliberal, neocon supporters including ultra right wing conservative foundations/think tanks doesn't get you to rethink your position, nothing will.


Good for you that charter school meets your specific needs, fortunately major public support for this private corporate takeover of public schools can still primarily be found on right wing websites and forums.

[noamnety]

252. I've gotten tired of the left saying

"These kids over here (read as these poor minority kids) have to stay in schools that barely function and they aren't allowed to be in the good schools, because that's the democratic way.

No, there's nothing in the works to change that, yes, we know we are actively voting to fund our (middle class white) schools with money that's only available to our (middle class white) districts. We're sorry your schools don't work, but that's no reason we shouldn't increase the quality of our own schools.

No, your kids can't go to our schools - that wouldn't be democratic.

You just sit tight though, and trust us, if you wait long enough, the system will get better for you. Yes, we know the gap is currently widening and things are moving in the wrong direction for you. No, you can't do anything to create your own system if ours is broke, that's undemocratic."

You know what? That's not democratic.

[ipaint]

256. Competition is not the answer. Schools aren't businesses.

"The prospect that Chicago's disastrous educational policies are about to go national is frightening, say the teachers BAR talked to. “We all hoped that Obama would not fall for this okie-doke of high-stakes testing, No Child Left Behind, of demonizing teachers and dismantling public education,” Ms. Evans continued. “But he (Arne Duncan) was the president's basketball buddy. It was a slap in the face locally to even have a CEO rather than an educator in charge of our schools here, and a slap in the face for us all nationally to have such a terribly unqualified person as Secretary of Education. Mr. Duncan has not taught in any classroom a single hour, and is in fact not qualified to teach anyplace.”

The Chicago-style “school turnaround” model does indeed owe more to the culture of corporate asset stripping and raiding than it does to any known strategy for educational improvement. In school “turnaround” operations, every teacher, food service worker, building engineer and custodial staff person is fired and the slate wiped clean. Experienced teachers who have invested their careers in urban education and are not rehired are, in the board's terminology “honorably terminated”, with no specific reason given for their dismissal. “Show me a hospital, no matter how bad it's doing,” asked one CORE teacher, “where you walk in and fire every doctor, every nurse, every administrator and tech without bothering to professionally evaluate them? It just sounds foolish. Why does anybody imagine this would help improve a school?”
...The New Orleans model, in which the entire public school workforce was fired at one stroke immediately after Katrina, and nearly all the city's public schools replaced with charter schools was implemented by Arne Duncan's predecessor at the Chicago Board of Education, Paul Vallas. Like Duncan, whose longest period of employment before the Chicago Public Schools was as a professional basketball player, Vallas was no educator either. Vallas was an accountant. And as in New Orleans, the closing of neighborhood public schools in Chicago and their wholesale replacement with charter and other special schools has destabilized vast residential areas of the city and greatly contributed to gentrification.

“If I could get a few minutes of the president's time,” Carol Caref told us, “I'd tell him that public education and quality neighborhood public schools are the foundations of stable, livable communities. Turning schools into test-prep centers doesn't improve the quality of education. Neither does repeating the corporate propaganda about our schools being 'dropout factories,' as Arne Duncan does. What works are resources, stability, parent and community involvement and smaller class sizes. Schools in wealthier neighborhoods have all these things. Children and families everywhere deserve them.”

http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=content/teachers-file-racial-discrimination-suit-against-obama-administrations-school-%E2%80%9Cturnaround%E2%80%9D-p


The money put into charter schools needs to be in the public schools. The neo liberal corporatists who created the blighted neighborhoods and underfunded schools now saddled with NCLB cannot be looked to, much less trusted, for the answer.

It's like relying on the health insurance companies, who happen to get taxpayer subsidies, to lower costs voluntarily. On an individual basis, you may get a deal, but overall they are rotting the system from the inside and will eventually bleed it dry. That is the privatized neoliberal way.

If corporate sponsored and controlled charter schools who take public money become the norm, your neighborhood will soon be back to square one and worse. It just isn't possible to make a profit or produce workers in poor districts with so much need. No government protection or regulation will be allowed to get in the way.

[noamnety]

260. You haven't provided any answers and don't seem to be advocating any solution

for the people in inadequate schools who are watching their schools and facilities get worse not better, other than telling them "it's good for you in the long run to stick with the system that screwed you over, trust us."

The thing is, they have no reason to trust you. They aren't dumb. They know it's not good for them to send generation after generation to inadequate schools which are falling further behind, not catching up. Everything about charters aside, you should at least admit that the current funding system is inherently not fair and is actively making the situation worse, not better, for inner city schools - and the main reason that's happening is nothing to do with charters. We don't have a solution for that, we aren't fighting for any solutions for that, I've never once seen a thread here saying "Detroit schools should get double the per student funding of Grosse Pointe Schools for a few decades." I never will see it. As a nation, we don't want that. We won't even give the lamest of lip service to real solutions, let alone actively fight for them. You won't support that in your response to me.

If you are making a case about corporate sponsored and controlled charters specifically, yes. It's bad to channel public funds to corporations, you aren't getting an argument out of me on that. Fortunately the vast majority of charters do not fall into that category.

If all schools opened their doors to all students without residency requirements, they could probably solve 90% of the need for charters immediately. That's not gonna happen, and that's your proof that people don't really want equal access to equal education for all. They don't want the inner city kids to have access to the suburban schools. There's your real problem - the I got mine syndrome within the public school system is so pervasive that it's invisible to many. But it's not invisible to the people relegated to the shit schools, who aren't allowed to go to the good ones. They can see through the benevolent people who are "concerned" about them ... but don't want the city kids at the desk next to their own kid.

[ipaint]

226. Disaster capitalism.

"What the Obama administration is doing, in tandem with the Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, is part and parcel of typical neo-liberal policy making: wielding federal stimulus funds as a financial weapon to force all states to increase the amount of charter schools they host as well as force those states that do not have them to pass legislation authorizing them. Through financial arm-twisting at a time of disastrous economic crisis, the Obama administration plans to use the power of the federal government to create a much larger national market for charter school providers, be they for profit or non-profit, virtual charters, EMOs or single operators.

This is deeply troubling, for many states which do not want charter schools or have found the experiment to be less than adequate and in fact damaging to kids and funding, for traditional public schools will now be forced to choose stimulus money over policy, a form of economic extortion and increased federal and corporate control over decision making, especially at a time when many of these states are literally financial insolvent. This is another example of how disaster politics operates, only this time the disaster is not a natural disaster but an economic disaster that threatens public policies.

...Using the government to create market opportunities for business interests is at the heart of neoliberal economic policies and why market adherents both need and relish government; the role of the government being one of legislating and unleashing favorable public policies that benefit businesses’ ability to maximize private capital, while socializing private costs to the public. This is essential for markets to function."

http://www.pdamerica.org/articles/news/2009-08-25-10-20-58-news.php

[omega minimo]

232. Send In The Clowns

Source URL: http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=content/send-clowns-3-stooges-gingrich-sharpton-duncan-hit-road-corporate-%E2%80%9Cschool-reform%E2%80%9D

[omega minimo]

230. Public charter schools are schools sponsored by the public school district, independent and exempt

from some regulation and oversight that the public school system is required to meet, including public disclosure. Unlike traditional public schools, they are not required to accept all applicants.

The attempt to equate "public" = "charter" in the public mind is part of a current nationwide campaign to continue to gut the public school system from within, draining funds and choice students, in order to compete based on business-dictated generic standards, to acquire more funds and power, rather than to educate students. A focus on education would not be based on bogus statistics and blaming teachers for the system's circumstances.

The public school students and public schools left out of the Ponzi scheme will deteriorate further and be left by the side of the road, to be run over by the Big Corporate School System bus.

[noamnety]

234. We are not exempt from public disclosure!

You are mistaken if you believe your traditional so-called public school accepts all applicants.

It's illegal for some students to enroll in your local so-called public school.

[omega minimo]

236. Public charter schools do not have the same regs and oversight for disclosure that public schools do

That's how the criminal ones get away with their results, funds and statistics fudging. They don't all do it. It's part of the big scheme though.

As is the fact that public charter schools can cherrypick student applicants and remove those students who make their statistics look bad.

"It's illegal for some students to enroll in your local so-called public school."

"So called public school"? That's how desparate you are to purport the propaganda? Now the public schools are "so called"?

[noamnety]

239. I just figured if others were going to use "so-called"

to imply that public schools aren't in fact open to the all the public equally, I'd join the fun.

Good for the goose, good for the gander.

Some charters (not mine, but I'll take your word at face value here) apparently cherry pick student applications and remove those students who make their stats look bad.

Some traditional so-called "public" schools explicitly do the same and even write it into their enrollment procedures, like Lincoln Prep, being held up in this thread as an example of a good "public" school. Some here have a double standard when it comes to whether public schools should or shouldn't cherry pick applicants, eh?

Other traditional public schools do worse - they accept the students, then force them out when they drag down the scores. And when those kids leave, they either go to charters if they are available or as some people prefer, they are given no other options and are forced to drop out.

Again, all traditional so-called "public" schools (maybe with a few select open school exceptions, but the general rule is all) make it illegal for certain students to have access to their schools.

[omega minimo]

253. Only you appear to using "so called" and "Some traditional so-called "public" schools"

has just pushed this discussion into the realm of the insane.

"Other traditional public schools do worse - they accept the students, then force them out when they drag down the scores. And when those kids leave, they either go to charters if they are available or as some people prefer, they are given no other options and are forced to drop out."

This is what some public charter schools do, force kids out of school, into the public schools. You have it backwards.

I am not going to play word games with you. I mean it, as clear as I have tried to be and then attempting to use the correct terms, you have just come up with another layer of obnoxious bullshit to derail honest discussion and succeed in appearing crazy.

:thumbsdown:

[Hannah Bell]

246. in fact, some are. it depends on the charter legislation.

not to mention this nice avenue for real estate scamming:

For Immediate Release
6/9/09

Senator Pileggi: Legislation Protecting Tax-Exempt Status of Charter Schools Approved by the Senate
Legislation introduced by Senate Majority Leader Dominic Pileggi (R-9) to protect the tax-exempt status of charter schools was approved today by the Senate, 49 to 0.

"Charter schools are public schools and should be treated as such," said Senator Pileggi. "In most of Pennsylvania, there is no confusion on this point. Unfortunately, some local charter schools have received real estate tax bills and were forced to go to court to fight this inequity. My bill would make the law absolutely clear, ensuring that education funds are spent to educate our children rather than wasted on unnecessary legal battles."

Senate Bill 687 explicitly states that all school property owned by a charter school or an associated non-profit foundation, or leased to a charter school at or below fair market value, which is used for public school purposes is exempt from taxation.

[noamnety]

247. The real estate for all public schools should be handled the same:

non profit, tax exempt, public property (not belonging to a corporation).

In Pennsylvania, sounds like all the charters there are public non-profit schools, based on what you quoted.

[Hannah Bell]

248. The most popular tactic for achieving non-transparency among the non-profit charter scammers

is to hire a for-profit EMO to run the charter school, and then to claim that bookkeeping and personnel records are beyond public scrutiny.

This is just what happened at the largest "non-profit" charter school in Pennsylvania, the Chester Community Charter School. Had it not been for a new a new state agency created by the state government, reporters for the Inquirer would probably still be waiting for records they requested, while the corporate vultures continue to stage their blocking actions in the courts.

Here's the whole story:

http://schoolsmatter.blogspot.com/2009/05/non-profit-charter-schools-want-public.html


Pennsylvania Charter School Evaluation - Five Year Report

14.5 percent of the charter schools are operated by for-profit EMOs. Table 3:2 illustrates the pattern of growth of EMOs in the Pennsylvania charter school ...

www.wmich.edu/evalctr/charter/pa.../chapter-3_background.pdf - Similar



"the real estate should be handled the same" - no, it shouldn't. because when private corps are involved, "handling it the same" is a big fat license to steal.

[noamnety]

249. 14.5 % is the minority of charter schools

and it sounds like they have fixed that problem through legislation so it won't be an issue in the future.

That's not something that happens at our local charter; we are the norm for charters - publicly operated, no corporation or for-profit management.

(your second link isn't working, in case you want to edit that)

[omega minimo]

254. It's a big country, you assume you are "the norm for charters" while admitting you don't know what

goes on elsewhere.

Maybe time to get more information and less attitude.

[noamnety]

257. The information is in the post I was responding to,

and its citation was given. "14.5 percent of the charter schools are operated by for-profit EMOs." If you didn't like her acknowledging that most charters aren't run by for profits, take it up with Hannah Bell.

Additional data is given in response #1 in this thread. The norm for charters in this big country is to be nonprofit, and not managed by a for profit EMO. Our local charter falls within the norm. If you don't like the actual data, I can't help you with that.

[omega minimo]

258. You ignored the information in the post your responded to:

"The most popular tactic for achieving non-transparency among the non-profit charter scammers is to hire a for-profit EMO to run the charter school, and then to claim that bookkeeping and personnel records are beyond public scrutiny."

"the real estate should be handled the same" - no, it shouldn't. because when private corps are involved, "handling it the same" is a big fat license to steal."


And you blew off all the information and all the possible situations nationwide different from those in your back yard with:

"...it sounds like they have fixed that problem through legislation so it won't be an issue in the future."

Well La De Da and Tra La La. If you're going to stay focused in your neighborhood -- and ignore everywhere else -- don't join the broader conversation. Please.

[noamnety]

261. That wasn't my backyard.

It was a discussion about an article Hannah Bell posted. If you want her to restrict her examples to "all possible situations nationwide" - take it up with her. If she posts a specific example, I am allowed to respond to that specific example. She chose to post an article from Pennsylvania which said "we had this problem with EMOs and charters and now we've fixed it."

I hope other states will use their legislation as a model if they are having the same problem.

I stand by my statement, which I see you edited some key parts out of. "The real estate for all public schools should be handled the same: non profit, tax exempt, public property (not belonging to a corporation)."

I think we agree that if it's owned by private corporations, that should be handled differently than when it's a public non profit school and the real estate is public property.

[omega minimo]

262. You have acknowledge that you consider your situation the norm and don't look much beyond.

The point here is about possible abuses, and some public charter schools are -- as has been stated and documented -- are calling themselves "non profit" while abusing the process by creating other legal entities to game the system -- including hiring their own for-profit companies to run the public charter "non-profit" schools.

[noamnety]

263. I'm just stating facts.

A minority of charters are abusing the system, just as what I assume is a minority of traditional public schools are abusing the system. Some of the charters have done it through EMO's and I am glad to see legislation is popping up to resolve that problem.

In all cases I support full disclosure of their finances.

My local charter I described is the norm because - statistically - it is the norm. The EMO's account for a minority of charters, making them not-the-norm. I'm not sure why you have an issue with that.

[omega minimo]

264. It's good to know how this is working in various communities and states.

Thank you for not responding to some unkind comments, which I edited out.

Please look at this thread for some more insight into some of the abuses, the connections of the players, the money and power involved, the blatant agenda of those who invented these plans and why people are alarmed.

[LWolf]

237. Again.

This educator doesn't give a shit what the AFT says. I don't care what dieties may come crashing to earth, or rising from below earth, to proclaim charter schools "public."

Until the flexibility offered to charter schools is also available to EVERY public school, and therefore EVERY public school student, and until Charter Schools have to follow the exact same requirements that public schools do, and until Charter Schools are run publicly and not privately,

CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE NOT PUBLIC SCHOOLS. THEY ARE SEMI-PRIVATE SCHOOLS OPERATING ON PUBLIC FUNDS.

We shouldn't be pitting public schools against other public schools, either. Public schools don't thrive on competition. They thrive on cooperation. The bottom line? Competition creates winners and losers. You can't create a system where everybody wins that way.

Not that the AFT doesn't have a good point in there.

Not this one: "We should be focusing on what we can learn from high-performing schools." We learned that a long, long time ago. That's all about SES.

This one: "The bottom line is that a school’s governance structure does not magically produce better or worse results. Regardless of the type of school, what happens in the school and in the classroom matters most. That includes making sure that school employees have a strong voice in school operations, and have the ability to make improvements for the good of their students."

[omega minimo]

255. Well put, again.

[noamnety]

259. Your statements are misleading and incorrect.

To be completely accurate, you can't make any blanket statement about whether charters are publicly or privately run, because they fall into both categories. Our local one, for instance, has absolutely nothing about it, zero, that is "semi-private."

If you insist on making a blanket statement and ignoring that a range exists, the most accurate and honest way to describe them is by describing the characteristics of the majority of charters, not the minority. Thus, the AFT summarizes them as public.

State law says they are public. Federal law says they are public. The teachers' unions say they are public.

I can understand the argument that the ones which are managed by corporations are not public - because their management is not public. I would agree that they are privately run public facilities.

But to define the 77% of charters by the remaining quarter is not intellectually honest. I understand it's harder to support your view on charters if you acknowledge the numbers. I sympathize. I wouldn't want teachers teaching their students to use that type of argument to support their thesis in a paper, though.

[LWolf]

281. Conversley,

to be "completely accurate," the statement in the OP is incorrect: "Charter Schools are PUBLIC SCHOOLS!"

Which is exactly my point.

I don't know about the "majority of charters." I've only worked in 2 states, not 50. I know how charters are approved and run in those states.

As I've pointed out too many times before, I've been recruited by charter schools, and have worked closely with teachers from several charter schools.

Those managed by corporations are not public.

However, those who are not managed by corporations are not exactly public, either.

They do get a "charter" from a local public district; that's permission to operate. There is some oversight from that district; in the 2 states I've taught in, that amounts to a yearly report.

That's the connection that allows the "public" spin. THAT is misleading.

But they are run privately. The district does not run them.

So...privately funded, or privately run...for profit, or non-profit, they are run privately. That's not incorrect. It's accurate. That, in my book, makes them private.

Another issue, of course, is that charter schools were conceived as a privatization tool by the right wing. With the pseudo-"public" image, they bring in more supporters for privatization; more that DON'T support vouchers.

They aren't a political tool for school improvement. They are a political tool for .

Those of us who have been on the front lines long enough know this.

[Dinger]

276. I Like You LWolf, But

you already knew that.:) :hi: :pals:

[SoCalDem]

265. Some are Cirque du Soliel-esque model schools..show schools

True public schools are designated by geographical boundaries..not niche schools where only the savviest of parents can "get their kids in"..

[noamnety]

266. Why are public schools

excluding kids by geographic borders?

Why aren't we questioning that? Why is it just accepted that the kids whose families can't afford to live in pricier neighborhoods shouldn't be allowed to attend their public schools?

Some things need to be examined. "Because it's always been done this way" is not an adequate answer.

The idea that "true" public schools should exclude kids based on residency needs to be examined because only the savviest of parents (disproportionately those who were savvy enough to be born white and middle class or rich) can afford to live where the best public schools are.

[SoCalDem]

267. Until we start funding schools differently, geography will rule

If you have an expensive house with high tax rates, and a brand new school, you EXPECT your kids to go the close-by new school.

If ALL schools were on par with each other, we would be better off, but we all know that will not happen anytime soon.

What's needed is MORE neighborhood schools..BUT smaller neighborhood schools.. these multi-gazillion dollar mega-schools are NOT the answer.


Children need to be able to live close enough to their schools, so that the kids they meet there and become friends with, are close enough to them to socialize after school.. That's what makes a neighborhood..not schlepping kids all over the place in cars or buses.

[noamnety]

268. "We all know this will not happen soon."

Exactly.

That's why when you try to convince the people in the shit schools that it's their social responsibility as good democrats to send their kids to dropout factories behind concertina wire where they will be guarded by a police force, while other kids spend their childhood learning robotics and swimming in fancy tax-payer funded swimming pools, they aren't all that interested in your considered opinion.

[ipaint]

270. The charter schools are using poor underfunded schools to infiltrate the system

You will benefit in the short term but once the movement gets a foothold in the better neighborhoods, kiss it goodbye. Not only will you have given up experience teachers, administrators and the infrastructure, however inadequate, to offer public education to your community through the slow starvation of funds, you now will have to start from scratch with even less money because it will be going to the better charter schools with the more "promising" students i.e. non minority upper class.

Or maybe the corporations and foundations which control most of the funding needed to supplement now meager taxpayer subsidies will decide who gets to be educated period.

[noamnety]

273. 80 percent of the guys in detroit drop out already

there's not much more downhill it can go from there. That's what the current system got us, and there's no plan (only resistance) to changing it.

You can see the rationalizations in the post just up a bit - if we let those detroit kids go to the grosse pointe schools, it will destroy the sense of community in grosse pointe. Can't have that - better to write off the detroit kids.

And then they try to claim it will destroy communities in Detroit. Seriously, are we supposed to listen to that with a straight face? They think THAT's what's destroying communities in Detroit?

"It's best for everyone if the privileged people keep their privileges to themselves for now."

More of the fierce urgency of never.

[ipaint]

274. The resistance is to the movement using charter schools to advance privatization

That is the stated goal of the founder of the voucher system. It is the goal of all the right wing organizations that back the movement. It is also the goal of the foundations that advocates for this type of change.

Charter schools are the stepping stone to privatization and I guarantee once the schools are privatized and supplemented with taxpayer money to keep the "public" in name only not one of the upper crust elite that are pushing this will give one iota of attention to the drop out rate in detroit. Heck, they created the detroit you speak of today.

There is alot that needs to be addressed regarding inequity in the public schools. My argument is not with new ideas and opportunities within the public school system. My objection is to the thinking that opening the door to the neoliberal privatizing parasites behind the charter school movement is the answer. The underfunded NCLB should have taught us all just what is in store for public education should we allow them to take control.

[Hannah Bell]

282. what's destroying communities in detroit is 25% UE & 30 years of deliberate

defunding of the city through various means. & when i say "defunding," i don't mean city government, i mean the city itself being hollowed out economically & purposefully.

[omega minimo]

277. Some are also using race and poverty in a very cynical and hypocritical way - to enrich and empower

themselves.

[SoCalDem]

271. not trying to "convince" anyone

merely stating a fact..:P

[Jakes Progress]

272. oooh. Yessss. that's it. Just like that.

That was gomer norquist having another orgasm.

[Dinger]

275. Pfffft (nt)

[omega minimo]

278. Charter schools are not public schools and the public are not total fools.

[omega minimo]

279. The corruption in this plan and Duncan pimping for charter schools starts AT THE TOP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4046499&mesg_id=4046499