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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 10:13 AM
Original message
Allow me to play Devil's advocate about Obama
Let me preface this before the Hate mails and Unrecs start flying. What I am about to write

is a sort of "Devil's advocate" piece, something to make people think about things that get

lost in the shuffle. However, Since I know I will be judged from the get go, let me make

some things clear. Yes, I am disappointed that Obama has gone too far to the right, yes I

am angry that he is not being agressive, yes I will curse him if he fails to bring home, AT

THE VERY LEAST, a GOVERNMENT RUN alternative to insurance ("public option" is a weak word)

AND an end to the Iraq war. However, I see a lot of us wondering why we are spinning our

wheels, and using catchphrases like "the definiton of insanity is" but I do not see much

honest reflection as to why we on the left shoot ourselves in the foot again and again.

Take what I am about to say as something to think about, not as a slam our ideals on the

left, and certainly NOT as praise of the right wing. After all, the HIV Virus is an

effective killer, but none would praise it, so none should praise the right.

People wonder why Obama does not embrace the farther left. One article even compared this

mess to braveheart, where, if only Obama charged out, the loyal left would follow him. Let

me ask a blunt question; when have we on the American left EVER given solid backing to any

of our Presidents? Yes, now FDR and LBJ and JFK are praised, but like many lauded dead,

people forget how much they were hated when they were alive. FDR was always accused of

selling people out, of making too many compromises. LBJ, even though he actually enacted

more civil rights and welfare programs than any president before or since, was considered a

sleazy figure, totally separate from his stance on Vietnam. JFK had the advantage of dying

young, but people accused him of cronyism, especially since he hired Bobby.

But let's get to more RECENT history. Carter has since been vindicated on many things, but

read reports of the time, and many on the left thought he was too religous. Enough

Democrats were angry at him where Ted Kennedy ran a challenge against him, and although Ted

bowed out, we Dems showed that we were very willing to fight each other, wasting time and

resources to soothe our egos. The GOP was able to sell that as weakness, a formula they

would repeat and exploit. As far as Bill Clinton, we on the left were not united behind

him. Disclaimer, I myself am furious at him for many things, none of which involved a cigar

or an intern, but when he got impeached, people were not exactly protesting in the streets

that the impeachment process was being abused; many were hoping he would resign. Then let's

get to Gore. I am not going to fight the old battle against the Nader voters, they have

their minds as made up as the people who think Obama was born in Kenya. However, even the

most die hard green cannot deny the WELL DOCUMENTED FACT that Rush Limbaugh was tickled

pink, and even encouraged his GOP listeners to fund Nader. The fact is again, we proved

that rather then be a unfied force, we would rather slit each other's throats, and the GOP

knows how to play us like harps!

OH, let's go forward. John Kerry, a true war hero, one who could earn medals, and have the

courage to throw them away. But even Doonesbury made fun of him saying he looked like

Herman Munster. Then of course, there was the Dean fight, where, as much as I love Dean

(the man who proved that Southern states can and do vote Blue), he made a fool of himself,

not just with the whole Yeee-haw bit, but by saying he wanted to be the choice of

"confederate flag wavers with Gun racks." See, Obama was not the first to try and seek

approval from the sort of folks who would gladly lynch him! When the swift boats came,

what did we do, we sighed, and blamed Kerry. Of course, if a Media Armada does not like

you, lies about you with impunity, that is the president's fault, not the people who still

buy the papers and watch the shows, right? We all know how many of us demanded en masse

that our cable company took off Fox news, or actually boycotted products advertised, wait,

we did not, at least not in an organized manner.

And finally, the last election. Disclaimers again, the vast majority of Hillary voters were

not racist, there happy now? However, Hillary, whether by accident or design, did not fire

Mark penn, tell her husband to stop making comments about mugging, or even stop praising her

old buddy John McCain. We had plenty of the so called left saying that they were far enough

to the right to elect John McCain, so ya better vote for Hillary. How did Obama win, not by

attacking Hillary, because if he did, it would have been scary negro vs. older white lady,

no, he appeased the other side, making it seem that he was not really that scary at all.

Let's be honest, there are only two sorts of people that can say anything offensive or

scary, those with a death wish, and those who are harmless because they act in such a silly

manner none feel threatened by them, like Michael Moore, John Stewart, and yes, even at

times St. Dennis Kucinich.

So, the point I am NOT trying to make is that we shoudl just follow obama, or not hold his

feet to the fire. The point I am making is that many of us are acting like we are some sort

of cohesive force that would happily blow wind in his sials if he would only be the leftist

we want him to be. The point of this essay is, we have not shown that at all in the past 30

years. If anything, we have acted like a slippery base which you cannot base anything on,

always ready to turn on each other. I am not saying we should nto DEMAND out of Iraq and

INTO the Public option..I am saying that we should stop and wonder how come the Mass Media

is feeding us so much paranoia, the rumor the hint that someone said this, and that we

devour every little bit. You don't think the Media knows that the one thing that keeps the

left from being organized is that we are paranoid and self-hating? The right is too, but

they have the pigs in the cleric collars to keep them stupid and herded, we do NOT want to

turn off our brain, which is good. However, if we do want to be the smart party, let's not

do the very thing that, admittedly Obama seems to be doing: letting our intellect outwit us,

and our wariness become FEAR.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. ...
:popcorn:
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TexasProgresive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. No Flames here
What you say is preaching to the choir. I agree with each and every point that you have made. The fact that your thread is sinking is actually proof of your good thinking. The naysayers can't counter such well thought out prose. Keep it up.

I vote the Democratic party because that is who best represents my thinking. But the party does not mirror all my thinking and I am pragmatic enough to realize that you have to choose your battles carefully. If B*sh had not systematically destroyed the checks and balances of the economic system then perhaps President Obama would be having an easier time dealing with the issues that are closer to our hearts.

Thanks again and surprise us with more intelligent verbiage.
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. THANK YOU
I fully expected to get mowed down, nice to know I am not as much of an alien as I thought :)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting read.
What is it you think we are doing, that allows our wariness to become fear? How is our intellect outwitting us? And what, specifically, do you think we should be doing about it?
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. In response to your question
Well, I honestly think one of our main problems can be summed up by the way we pay more attention now to the mainstream media than we did back when Clinton was president. In the 90's we all knew MSM was bovine manure. We ignored the mainstream media as much as possible, moving to the internet (which at that time was not as much under corporate control.) Now, when someone like POLITICO so much as sneezes, there are a dozen threads appearing where people somehow take as GOSPEL something that would have been dismissed as a rumor, and true enough, we are at sniping at each other! The right was studied us, and knows what buttons to push, and it knows we start a cycle. Soon we all start hearing variants on "the reason we are not doing well is because we have not gotten rid of everyone who disagrees with us, and if only Obama agreed with US, we would win!"

We have all read stuff like this in DU. One faction on the more center side of the left says "party unity my ass! Those lefties will make sure coveted white middle class/independent voters run for cover!" Another on the left says "throw all the Clinton era people OUT!", and of course, Rush lights another cigar, knowing that while there are big rifts in the GOP, the right is so addicted to GREED and FEAR that that they can be easily herded.

As far what to do about it, well, none of us can, or should, turn in our brains. What we do need to do is realize that the media is not only a partner of the right, it is the main muscle actually used to control the masses, and keep us confused and angry. Like a parasite, the MSM has made a nest in the gaping holes that used to be Community and Religion, and it has what James Madison would call a "vested interest in disorder." Take a look at the various pundits on ALL sides, whether you are Rush Limbaugh OR Michael Moore, all of them have seen their wallets get FAT in the 21st century, because a confused, angry America is GOOD FOR BUSINESS. The very idea that so many pundits have become so influential in a very short period of time is, in and of itself, a symptom of a disease. The very act of political thinking has become an exploitable resource. It does not matter if the pop up ads are on DU or on a Right wing site, the company makes money with every hit, all the same, as blue and red cattle get marched into the cattle cars.

The first step is not in wishing the media would stop being what it is, the first step is my realizing that, as much as you disagree with someone who is not your flavor of left, that person, at their worst, has much more in common with you than anyone else ever will. In a Family, no one may really LIKE each other, but they all know that when the enemy comes, yes, YOU ARE YOUR SIBLING'S KEEPER, PERIOD!
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. One of the things that I've done, regarding the media,
is to flat out boycott it. I haven't watched tv news since 2001, when I got divorced and retained custody of the remote.

Other than for 10 minutes on 9/11/01, when my son called me and demanded that I "turn on the damned tv." I watched for about 15 minutes, and turned it off.

I don't get much in the way of news from the radio, although I do have my clock radio alarm set to NPR. So I get about 10 minutes in the pre-dawn darkness, until I force myself up and across the room to turn it off and start the day.

Other than that, all my news comes from newspaper and online sources. A wide variety of online sources, to try to achieve some, yes, balance. News that I can READ; I can scan headlines and read articles in a fraction of the time it takes some talking head to spin it.

I did that, because I was "being" the change I wished to see. Unfortunately, 8 years later, I'm still the "lone wolf." The nation is addicted to the sound bites of the corporate media propaganda machine.

In real life, I DO interact with, and cooperate with, all kinds of people who I don't agree with. I live in a strong red area. I have met NO ONE who is as "left" as I am.

At DU, where we are supposed to be discussing issues, I'm going to stand firmly on the left. That's the point of the discussion; to listen, and to debate those issues.

The partisan bullying and personality cults, the media frenzy and the "let's all gang up and ridicule THEM" parties don't much interest me.

Truth interests me. Honesty. Integrity. Principles.

I'm one of those idealists. I'm willing to work with what I can, and who I can, but I don't abandon ideals.

It's kind of like that in my classroom, as well. I start the year with my eyes on the ideal. I push forward all year long. Do I ever get there? Of course not. Never are 100% of my students well-balanced, mentally, physically, socially, emotionally, and intellectually healthy when they leave my room. Never are 100% of my students geniuses, able to think through great literature and write well-constructed, thoughtful papers at a single bound I always fall short.

But, by keeping my sights on the ideal, we get a hell of a lot further than we would if I gave up and accepted "ok" as the goal.

Compromise isn't the goal. It's simply what you do when you have to, to keep your feet on the path and moving in the right direction.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. No flames here...
In my opinion, the progressive left is working just as hard to undo the Obama presidency as the far-right... the difference is that the progressive left THINK they are NOT doing that.


Our own worst enemy. Always have been. The far left weren't behind JFK until AFTER he died (that's the truth), eviscerated the Carter presidency by challenging him in the '80 primaries, Led to the GOP control of congress from 94 to 06 because they abandoned Clinton.


We can't get out of our own freaking way.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. interesting. I'd recommend that you make it more visually easy to follow.
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 12:39 PM by BlancheSplanchnik
As it is, it's very dense. Difficult to read and pick out your points. It needs paragraphing and subtitles to help organize and guide the reading/thinking process.

Yes, as a group, we progressives are intelligent and NON- authoritarian. Therefore, we are aware of the complexities of any given issue and debate them to death. But our guiding vision is, "WHAT BEST REDUCES SUFFERING?" A very Buddhist question, by the way; No bowing down before ideology that supports abstracted over simplifications, while ignoring the realities of people's lives.




Anyway, I just started a thread that speaks to your question, I think -- or at least in part. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6484768&mesg_id=6484768

My concern is that we have no unified voice that reaches many people -- and teevee is the default info outlet that we need to get hold of.

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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. +1. Couldn't Make It Through.
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troubledamerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. +2
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. +3.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent post
fix the format, but its a great post.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good essay
I agree with the main point of your essay. People who think & discuss before they leap do not seem as well organized.
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks
It would not let me edit after a certain period, but now that my word processor has behaved like a human, here is a cleaned up version. My apologies in advance for spam


Let me preface this before the Hate mails and Unrecs start flying. What I am about to write is a sort of "Devil's advocate" piece, something to make people think about things that get lost in the shuffle. However, Since I know I will be judged from the get go, let me make some things clear. Yes, I am disappointed that Obama has gone too far to the right, yes I am angry that he is not being agressive, yes I will curse him if he fails to bring home, AT THE VERY LEAST, a GOVERNMENT RUN alternative to insurance ("public option" is a weak word) AND an end to the Iraq war. However, I see a lot of us wondering why we are spinning our wheels, and using catchphrases like "the definiton of insanity is" but I do not see much honest reflection as to why we on the left shoot ourselves in the foot again and again. Take what I am about to say as something to think about, not as a slam our ideals on the left, and certainly NOT as praise of the right wing. After all, the HIV Virus is an effective killer, but none would praise it, so none should praise the right.

People wonder why Obama does not embrace the farther left. One article even compared this mess to braveheart, where, if only Obama charged out, the loyal left would follow him. Let me ask a blunt question; when have we on the American left EVER given solid backing to any of our Presidents? Yes, now FDR and LBJ and JFK are praised, but like many lauded dead, people forget how much they were hated when they were alive. FDR was always accused of selling people out, of making too many compromises. LBJ, even though he actually enacted more civil rights and welfare programs than any president before or since, was considered a sleazy figure, totally separate from his stance on Vietnam. JFK had the advantage of dying young, but people accused him of cronyism, especially since he hired Bobby.

But let's get to more RECENT history. Carter has since been vindicated on many things, but read reports of the time, and many on the left thought he was too religous. Enough Democrats were angry at him where Ted Kennedy ran a challenge against him, and although Ted bowed out, we Dems showed that we were very willing to fight each other, wasting time and resources to soothe our egos. The GOP was able to sell that as weakness, a formula they would repeat and exploit. As far as Bill Clinton, we on the left were not united behind him. Disclaimer, I myself am furious at him for many things, none of which involved a cigar or an intern, but when he got impeached, people were not exactly protesting in the streets that the impeachment process was being abused; many were hoping he would resign. Then let's get to Gore. I am not going to fight the old battle against the Nader voters, they have their minds as made up as the people who think Obama was born in Kenya. However, even the most die hard green cannot deny the WELL DOCUMENTED FACT that Rush Limbaugh was tickled pink, and even encouraged his GOP listeners to fund Nader. The fact is again, we proved that rather then be a unfied force, we would rather slit each other's throats, and the GOP knows how to play us like harps!

OH, let's go forward. John Kerry, a true war hero, one who could earn medals, and have the courage to throw them away. But even Doonesbury made fun of him saying he looked like Herman Munster. Then of course, there was the Dean fight, where, as much as I love Dean (the man who proved that Southern states can and do vote Blue), he made a fool of himself, not just with the whole Yeee-haw bit, but by saying he wanted to be the choice of "confederate flag wavers with Gun racks." See, Obama was not the first to try and seek approval from the sort of folks who would gladly lynch him! When the swift boats came, what did we do, we sighed, and blamed Kerry. Of course, if a Media Armada does not like you, lies about you with impunity, that is the president's fault, not the people who still buy the papers and watch the shows, right? We all know how many of us demanded en masse that our cable company took off Fox news, or actually boycotted products advertised, wait, we did not, at least not in an organized manner.

And finally, the last election. Disclaimers again, the vast majority of Hillary voters were not racist, there happy now? However, Hillary, whether by accident or design, did not fire Mark penn, tell her husband to stop making comments about mugging, or even stop praising her old buddy John McCain. We had plenty of the so called left saying that they were far enough to the right to elect John McCain, so ya better vote for Hillary. How did Obama win, not by attacking Hillary, because if he did, it would have been scary negro vs. older white lady, no, he appeased the other side, making it seem that he was not really that scary at all. Let's be honest, there are only two sorts of people that can say anything offensive or scary, those with a death wish, and those who are harmless because they act in such a silly manner none feel threatened by them, like Michael Moore, John Stewart, and yes, even at times St. Dennis Kucinich.

So, the point I am NOT trying to make is that we shoudl just follow obama, or not hold his feet to the fire. The point I am making is that many of us are acting like we are some sort of cohesive force that would happily blow wind in his sials if he would only be the leftist we want him to be. The point of this essay is, we have not shown that at all in the past 30 years. If anything, we have acted like a slippery base which you cannot base anything on, always ready to turn on each other. I am not saying we should nto DEMAND out of Iraq and INTO the Public option..I am saying that we should stop and wonder how come the Mass Media is feeding us so much paranoia, the rumor the hint that someone said this, and that we devour every little bit. You don't think the Media knows that the one thing that keeps the left from being organized is that we are paranoid and self-hating? The right is too, but they have the pigs in the cleric collars to keep them stupid and herded, we do NOT want to turn off our brain, which is good. However, if we do want to be the smart party, let's not do the very thing that, admittedly Obama seems to be doing: letting our intellect outwit us, and our wariness become FEAR.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. People who know how to use spacing and paragraphs rule....
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 04:53 PM by BlooInBloo
No matter how long I'm in America, I'll always be shocked at how low the bar is for *ruling*.
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Sorry
If I could use straight out MS word to post, it would be a bit neater. As is I fixed things by cutting and pasting :)
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