Obama to have 'real hard time' with liberals if he drops public option

[kpete]

Source: The Hill


Obama to have 'real hard time' with liberals if he drops public option
By Michael O'Brien - 09/06/09 03:40 PM ET

President Obama will encounter difficulties wrangling together liberal members of his own party on issues if he abandons the public option, one Democratic congresswoman warned Sunday.

"He's going to have a real hard time with us," Rep. Yvette Clarke (D-N.Y.) said during an interview on MSNBC when asked if Democrats would "abandon" him.

Clarke said she expects the president to flex some political muscle Wednesday night during a speech to a joint session of Congress, where he's expected to detail his priorities for healthcare reform.

There have been varying signs about where, if at all, Obama will come down on the public (or "government-run") option, as liberal Democrats have expressed growing dissatisfaction about the president's handling of healthcare.

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/57463-obama-to-have-real-hard-time-with-liberals-if-he-drops-public-option

[Captain Hilts]

1. Which is harder than a 'really' hard time. nt

[unblock]

207. no, a real hard time as opposed to a fake hard time

which is what the liberals will probably actually give him.

[Vincardog]

2. We can only hope that he is to flex some political muscle and scare the reich wing nutz

Name one thing they have compromised?

[Demeter]

4. The United States of America n/t

[Vincardog]

23. OK they did compromise that one thing

[veritasvg]

12. They Don't Scare

They just bring out their guns. That's why I think ultimately there will be no bill.

[defendandprotect]

148. Right . . . GOP has called out their thugs ... their gun nuts, their "pro-life" murderers . . .

and their anti-health care nuts --

We can be swiftboated by their aggressive if not violent tendencies -- or

we can stand together!

[crim son]

3. This is so important and an indication of whether or not he has

what it takes to create the change he promised during his campaign. If doesn't pull it off I'll support him through the rest of his term and then look elsewhere. Yeah, he's going to have a hard time with some of us.

[jeffbr]

5. He'll have a 'real hard time' with everyone

Contempt and continued hatred from the right, and disgust and distrust from the left.

[Babyserendip]

9. If he does not get some teeth! He will be easily Cartered out of office with a viable alternative.

I'd rather have a plain spoken bastard who says he is going to do horrible things and does them.....then a man who says he will do the right thing and does not(hing).

[ChiciB1]

57. Great Comment... I Have Come To Believe That The "Latter" Is In Operation

right now!! Obama speaks "words" that leave too many people "guessing" what he "intends" to do and then leaves the stage!

I am NO LONGER among those who wish to try to "figure out" just WHAT IT IS he's trying to say to me!! Oh well, I may as well add it... He speaks with forked tongue!!

That's what I'm getting from what I'm seeing and hearing! I want CLARITY!! NOT HAPPENING!

HOPE & CHANGE... JUST-ICE!!!

And just "one more thing" it's not "just the left" he needs to worry about... the word is spreading FAST!!

[jeffbr]

63. We mortals don't understand 10-dimensional chess

Throwing people under the bus is not what it seems in 10 dimensions.
People going bankrupt or dying because of no insurance is not what it seems in 10 dimensions, either.

[bvar22]

90. Chess ?

Isn't that a game where The Pawns are sacrificed to protect The Royalty.

By god, Obama IS playing Chess.

Sucks if you are a pawn with no Health Care.

[cascadiance]

96. Funny thing is that the King is pretty defenseless if he sacrifices everyone else!

Chess or otherwise! Obama! Wake up and smell the coffee! You NEED your base! You sure as hell don't need those "bipartisan" shysters!

[tnlefty]

186. People who have insurance go bankrupt and die,, also, which is why

this mess needs to be fixed and pronto.

edit: can't type

[Grinchie]

170. Great Comment, and it supports my thoughts as to why the Headline is overly kind to Obama.

The reality is that Obama has already played out his hand with Liberals, most likely thinking he can foist anything called Health Care Reform without people actually paying attention to all his DLC sponsored political Giveaways since his Inaguration.

The DLC just moved too fast to give themselve and their Corporate cronies whatever they wanted, and now it's too late to "Go Slow" or at least move cautiously, because the Giveaway is a fully visible "Mugging" of the progressives and liberal left that elected him.

Universal Health Care is a standard in many countries, and Americans are so stupid they can be led like sheep via the Media, without every doing the research, or God forbid, actually travel to those Horrible Socialist countries and ask for themselves.

Of course, the Fraud of the U.S. Economy is now visible for all to see, and people are all emotioned up, looking for an answer as to why all of a sudden there don't seem to be any places to work anymore. They don't bother to look and see that this is just a end result of 30 years of the disenfranchisement of labor unions, the reduction in education, and the printing of lot's and lots of money by the fed.

It's not Republican or Democrat anymore. It Corporate America and their Fascist preoccupation with the model of "WE SAY SO Corporation".

Pardon me while I pretend not to listen to what they are telling me, and make then pay some goon to pick me up and carry me away from were they don't want me to be.

No more support for any Corporations, or Corporate owned Politicians, or Corporate Bankers that get free money off my labor. No more.

[webrockk]

179. By George! I think you've got it!!

Starve 'em out...Can't vote 'em out, they're all the same.

[bvar22]

204. There is a way to just quit ,

...but it is not for everybody.

We are using what we learned in the 60s.
:hippie:

[Mimosa]

222. True and sad, too, Babyserendip.

Welcome to the DU, Baby. *smile*

I understand what you mean here:

[Bette Noir]

10. I emailed him last week,

to tell him that, if he doesn't push the public option, he'll be a lame duck for the rest of his term. He'll be teaching the Right that he can be bullied, and the Left that he can't be trusted.

[fudge stripe cookays]

76. He's already thrown gays under the bus.

That's when I started growing disgusted, because I love my gay friends so much, and it was hard to see them hurting like that.

If the public option is off the table, I'll volunteer time and support for his Democratic opponent, even if I'm in Canada by then.

[katkat]

85. seniors under the bus too.

Don't forget low income seniors were supposed to get a tax break. Vanished without even an acknowledgment that it disappeared.

[bvar22]

92. LABOR got tossed under the bus too.

Obama and "The Democrats" dropped EFCA like a Hot Potato.
Didn't even pretend to fight.


Oh, and you remember the campaign promise about "renegotiate NAFTA".
GONE....without a whimper.

[bvar22]

93. LABOR got tossed under the bus too.

Obama and "The Democrats" dropped EFCA like a Hot Potato.
Didn't even pretend to fight.


Oh, and you remember the campaign promise about "renegotiate NAFTA".
GONE....without a whimper.

[cascadiance]

102. And Schumer's looking to push legislation to raise H-1B caps TOMORROW!

http://www.cio.com/article/497081/Analysis_the_Next_H_1B_Fight_Begins_By_Labor_Day

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

With jerks like this running ths show, who needs Republicans!

Public campaign financing NOW!

[jeffbr]

106. Nuthin against foreigners, but with sky-high unemployment, charity begins at home

Schumer is an asshole.

[Mithreal]

111. Absolutely. nt

[defendandprotect]

151. Wow -- record American unemployed and MORE foreign workers... Thanks, Schumer!!!

Good thinking, Schumer!!!

:eyes:

[AspenRose]

184. OK, that really ticks me off

Enough is enough...what about OUR unemployed?! Sheesh....these legislators need a two by four upside the head.

[Libertas1776]

250. Schumer

is such a sack of crap. I am so ashamed to call him my Senator.

[flyarm]

239. he threw senior women under the bus during the primary! and now threw them all under the bus..

there will be no cost of living for Social Security ..not this year or next!

[Mithreal]

109. How it plays with Independents is more serious. nt

[hay rick]

149. Bingo.

It isn't just what he gets out of this- it's what he does or doesn't stand for. Some versions of the health care bill that are floating around out there are worse than nothing. Better to fight and lose than to compromise and appease your way into failure.

[RoccoR5955]

231. I sent an e-mail stating the same thing

If more of us contacted out elected officials, they might get the message, that we hold the keys to their jobs, when they run for re-election.

[digidigido]

75. true that

[Salviati]

157. The thing is that he's going to get contempt and hatred from the right no matter what.

Hopefully his team wakes up and realizes who their real allies are, before they abandon them one too many times.

[bvar22]

201. The disgust and distrust from the Left ....

...has been EARNED.

[zenj8]

6. I agree

that many liberals will see any capitulation on Obama's part in regard to the public option as another indication that he can't/won't keep his campaign promises. We are still involved in a budget-busting war, the financial industry has run amok, and many who voted for "change" just don't see it happening. If Obama's leadership on the public option disappears, then I will immediately change my party affiliation and look around for someone who will actually represent the people of this country and not the corporations. Am I alone in this feeling?

[Frosty cupcake]

7. I'm already looking

at alternatives in Florida.

[ChiciB1]

58. I Live In Florida... And Believe You Me... We NEED An Alternative!

I "was" a Democrat when a Democrat "was" a Democrat!! Either we REVOLT now, or we re-organize and morph into what WE WANT!!

It's ALL UP HILL THOUGH!

I was willing to give them more time, but now TIME is running out!

[roguevalley]

213. you and me both, chiciB1. i hear your state government likened to a

ponzi scheme yesterday.

[Lorien]

13. No, you are not

I've been a staunch Democrat since my earliest memories. Just a few years ago I could never imagine being anything else, but the past few years have made me realize-with no small amount of horror and disgust-that Nader was on to something. It's not a popular sentiment around here, but it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

[Old Time Pagan]

41. I'm not particularily interested in being popular

If this health care reform gets derailed that will be proof positive that the two parties are both beholden to the same masters. That said if just, sane, and fair health care reform is not implemented by the Obama administration I will never vote for anyone with a D or and R after their name. Rather than waste my vote on a wholly owned subsidiary of corporate greed I will only vote for 3rd party candidates and work to rid us of the yoke of corporatocracy.

We may not have a lot of time left to turn things around on this planet and I'll be dipped it I continue to get sucked into the Democrat/Repuke melodrama. If the dems can't figure this out then they can both take flying leaps as far as I'm concerned.

[dana_b]

56. well stated

and I couldn't agree with you more about the fighting. They are compromising with people who think there are "death panels" and that he was born in Kenya. To HELL with that! Strong arm the weak dems and get it passed with a strong public option. We can;t wait any longer as you stated. Our people and this planet deserve better.

[Old Time Pagan]

83. Thanks for the kind words

Seems to be a shift in sentiment on this site. From reading all the responses to this post it appears that more and more of us are waking up to the less than pleasant reality of our United States and its political parties

My wife is Swedish and her relatives are amazed that providing fair and equitable health care to all our citizens is such a "big" deal. To them it's a no-brainer.

I find the fear of "socialism" argument from the right such a crock that I grabbed this jewel (possibly from here) and made a few modifications to it on the way. I post it for everyone's use:

So, you say you don't like socialism? You don't want the government running anything? Wellll....

Don't EVER say you honor and support our military. The military (even including private, outsourced companies like Blackwater) are all paid and supplied by the Federal government.

Don't EVER call 911 for a medical, fire or police emergency. Emergency services are largely provided for by public servants using government-provided equipment and training.

Don't EVER drive on a federal or state or local highway. You can only drive on roads built and maintained by private companies. You'll really have to do this as you will not have a driver's license which is a product of a government agency.

Don't EVER buy any food that passed an FDA inspection. You have to grow your own fruits and vegetables and raise your own cattle, pigs, chickens, etc. Same goes for any medications.

Don't EVER visit a National, State, or Local park and especially don't participate in any activities there (fishing, hunting, camping, hiking, etc. that would require further expenditures for licenses.)

Don't EVER be in a position you would need a public defender. They are paid for via public dollars.

Don't EVER expect or ask for the prosecution against someone who did you harm, directly or indirectly. The judicial system, you see, is a government-run agency paid for by our tax dollars and other fees.

Don't EVER visit a public library and use the resources there as tax dollars bought those books, PCs, etc.

Don't EVER put your children in public schools (elementary, high school, or college). The elementary and high schools are free via tax dollars. Teachers are paid via tax dollars.

Don't EVER apply for Medicaid if you become disabled or indigent and need assistance such as food stamps, medical care, utility bill assistance or job training. After all, you don't want other Americans who have no insurance to have it paid for via tax dollars, why should you get to take part in that system?

Don't EVER accept Medicare (above the amount you contributed plus an appropriate amount of interest) after you retire and can longer find any type of private health insurance that will accept your tired old EXPENSIVE to care for body.

Don't EVER accept any Social Security payment (same deal as with Medicare) after you no longer work or a spouse has died. Live off of your private investments or the charity of friends and family.

Don't EVER apply for a small business loan from any government agency. Where do you think that money would come from anyway?

Don't EVER ask the government for help in getting child support payments from a deadbeat spouse.

Don't EVER apply for Unemployment if you should happen to lose your job.

Don't EVER mail a letter via the USPS and contact every single entity that would otherwise use the USPS for mailing you items to have them sent via UPS, FEDEX, or electronic delivery.

Don't EVER visit a museum that was built or is maintained or operated by any government agency.


This list is only a fraction of what we the people have established as "The Commons" meant to benefit us all. Never have heard of any of the "birthers", "death panelers" or the "socialisn-ophobs" avoiding any these benefits when they were personal beneficiaries.

[Mari333]

105. +1!

[Patchuli]

114. I wish I could recommend your post!!

Right on Old Time Pagan! :applause:

[CLANG]

145. No electronic Delivery!

The internet was primarily developed by the US Federal government (DOD, DARPA, etc.) with TAX DOLLARS!!

[Old Time Pagan]

152. Just added it to my list!!!

To provide for the general welfare......geez you'd think our "freedom loving", independent, go it alone, righties had never read the Constitution.

They sure are willing to take advantage of the services we provide in "The Commons" but then they bitch about the money required to pay for them and the fact that they can't make money off them through privatization. I still can't quite wrap my mind around running health care, defense or the prison system as for-profit enterprises.

[CLANG]

158. BUT IT DOESN'T MENTION "Health Care" IN THE U.S.S Constitution!!

:sarcasm:

[Old Time Pagan]

161. Yah and that damn sure wouldn't qualify

as the "General Welfare." Why would a system that makes it possible for all citizens to participate in preventive medicine programs that result in long term improvements in the overall health of the citizenry and thus lower medical costs constitute providing for the "General Welfare."

What hopeless, lefty, socialist French cheese eating dolts we are.

[misanthrope]

221. Was it in the captain's log or written on the bulkhead?**nm

**

[RoccoR5955]

230. I don't know of any ship, boat, or other naval vessel that mentions health care!

But as far as the US Constitution, The Preamble reads as follows:
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

What part of the "general welfare," is NOT healthcare?

[Mithreal]

117. Resist the urge to paint all the Dems with the same brush. nt

[Old Time Pagan]

163. As individuals there are Dems that I have great respect for

Dennis Kucinich and Russ Feingold spring to mind without a moment's hesitation. That said the party may well be too deeply in the pockets of the corporatocracy to be saved.

My guess is that if a truly viable progressive 3rd party was to be brought into existence those two gentleman (and a few of their contemporaries) would come on board.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

14. This is the line in the sand for my vote, my donation, my support.

If he drops this (and if either of my US Senators fold as well), I will actively work to get him (and them) defeated in the next election. And I have let them all know repeatedly.

Our country cannot handle the continuation of Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Bush leadership ... at those of us *not* in the upper 2% cannot. I really want a Democrat in the WH, not some version of Republican.

But Obama still has plenty of time to get this (and lots of stuff) right, so he has my support.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

198. You and me both

If the only "reform" is a Massachusetts-style corporate welfare bill (where everyone's required to buy private insurance but the insurance companies are not required to behave themselves, then I am THROUGH with the Democrats.

[ThorDem]

22. Definitely not alone

I'll probably start supporting the Green Party candidate providing that AR state law doesn't outlaw third parties (which they are attempting to do at this point - yeehaw! Good ole boy politics at it's finest)

[on point]

46. You are not alone!!

If he doesn't push for public option to Congress as the 'compromise' (single payer is the deisred position), then I think progressives should change party registrations en masse right away to let the DINO's know they have no backlng. A kind of 'no confidence' vote.

[pattmarty]

54. Nope. I think he and his "crew" are underestimating the "left".......

.........I believe some of the Congress people in the progressive caucus will cave, I wonder if he will have enough votes in the HOUSE to pass there w/o a public option. If Rahm is as sharp as he is supposed to be, he better have ENOUGH votes lined up in the House. My opinion on it is, no public option, no bill. In 4 or 5 yrs the WHOLE country will be so pissed off that maybe then we can get Medicare for all.

[cascadiance]

97. +100!

I joined the party the day after Howard Dean took over the DNC!

I hope he helps start a new party if Obama and the Dems don't wake up, and that will be the day I move there as well!

[Mithreal]

113. Why not consider dual party affiliation? For example Green and Democratic? nt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States

Let others tell you to call yourself Independent or not to divide party loyalties.

I am loyal to principles.

[defendandprotect]

154. Agree -- plus we need to move capitalism out and economic socialism in . . .

The wars -- almost 8 years now!! -- are bankrupting the Treasury --

and destroying any future for America! US/capitalists have already done

this to other nations - - they're now doing it HERE!

We need re-regulation of capitalism . . . reregulate it into oblivion!

What has to happen, however, is that everyone MOVES together --

Most Americans want MEDICARE FOR ALL -- a public option.

Trying to suggest that "liberals/progressives" are making trouble for Obama

is a cute right-wing bit of propaganda -- Rahm/DLC?

[BlueDemKev]

191. Socialism??

We are the DEMOCRATIC Party, not the Socialist Party. We believe in the free market but believe that reasonable restraints must be set to prevent our society turning into what France was in the 1780's or Cuba was in the 1950's.

A privileged few and a destitute many leads to one thing....a bloody revolution.

[truedelphi]

171. Welcome to DU, and I will join you in looking

For someone else to vote for. Like Cynk has been saying, I'll give Pres. Obama until Wednesday to prove his mettle.

If he caves and simply makes his health care "reform" package into a MANDATE that assists the insurers, he will not be needing me any more.

As far as "Setting him straight" no I don't think so. There are people out there who NEVER need to be set straight - Woolsey, Kucinich, Maxine Waters, Clemmons, etc.

Maybe one of them should take a stab at doing the 2012 run if the Obama promises to the middle class are broken yet again, while industry is yet again pampered.

[tularetom]

8. As soon as I read Obama was appointing Rahm Emanuel as chief of staff

I knew real Democrats were going to have a real hard time with him.

What happened to Clnton is almost the same thing that's starting to happen with Obama. Except Clinton welcomed it as a way to please everybody. If you go to the DLC web site and enter "the new team" in the search box you will find almost the entire Obama cabinet. What does that tell you? If the asshole DLC is happy with this gang, real Demovrats and ultimately the American people will not be.

I still believe in Obama. I think he has the right instincts and knows what's best for the country but he needs to trust those instincts and jettison this cadre of corporatist snakes from his cabinet and staff before they take him down.

[polichick]

11. But why would he choose "this cadre of corporatist snakes" if he doesn't...

...see things their way??

[Lorien]

15. Good question

I don't think that any of us will like the real answer to that.

The DLC-destroying the Democratic Party from the inside out.

[polichick]

18. I agree that the party is being destroyed from the inside out...

I've asked that question since he chose Rahm ~ and with every one of his creepy choices/decisions since then ~ there is no good answer I can think of.

[cascadiance]

108. He could be led to explain it was his strategy to get rid of them...

out of the other offices they held, if he blanketly fires them all later when he sees the DLC strategy utterly destroying the party!

Could explain that he in effect hired them to take them out of the congress to do what the party base wanted that he gave marching orders for, or to be be fired if their leadership failed. I think we should pressure him into this outcome. Might rescue his presidency and our party!

[Le Taz Hot]

232. ROFL!!!!

OMG! The mental gymnastics it took to come up with that scenario is nothing less than amazing. You might need a nap after that one. :eyes:

[CrispyQ]

245. A few months ago, one DUer posted this scenario:

The day after the election, the powers that be take Obama into a dark room. Video footage, of the assassination of JFK, from an angle never seen before, is shown. Then video footage, of the assassination of MLK, from an angle never seen before, is shown. Then video footage, of the assassination of RFK, from an angle never seen before, is shown. The lights go up. They look at Obama & ask, "Are there any questions?"

A simpler & more likely explanation is that our system is so damned corrupt that there is no way either of the two party candidates will ever be anything other than blatant, out-right corporatists.

[Vidar]

19. That was my reaction as well.

[bvar22]

86. Here you go:

Chump Change

[cascadiance]

110. The Rahm-per-room!

Still have been meaning to do a photoshop of that too.

[ChiciB1]

180. How Very Inventive!! Hey Rahm... Are Ya Hearing Us, Or Ignoring Us??

[defendandprotect]

155. Obama eloped with the DLC . . . how can he be an innocent in this?

Are you saying he was forced to take them?

If, so what are we really saying about American democracy????

[bossy22]

16. Compromise

thats the entire art of politics. Strong arming legislation often fails in the end, or hurts you in future battles.

But the truth is that legislation with the public option in it probably doesnt have enough support to go through the senate. Therefore we have to think...do we want to get 90% of what we want or 0%? So lets stop this pushing of the public option (which isnt going to happen) and start working on some real changes that will pass

P.S. i am a supporter of the public option but i also see the writing on the wall for it

[Vincardog]

27. I want Single Payer how is no PO 90% of what we want? Fuck that blather

[joeybee12]

31. Thanks to LBJ and his arm-twisting and outright blackmail...we have the Civil Rights Act of 1964...

...yeah, that's the ONLY way to get something done.

[JDPriestly]

49. And Medicare, etc.

We have had plenty of discussion. If Obama caves on the public option, the right-wingers will know exactly how to bully him into no change from now on. All they have to do is rev up Fox News and bring out the Tea-Baggers en masse.

If Obama gives in on this, we liberals will have to start getting out into the streets again to show that we can be louder than the right-wingers. We are more disciplined than they. We are committed to non-violence in our demonstrations and our lives. Many of them are not. Obama should realize that any violence by right-wingers against us will be his fault. It will lie on his shoulders. We have already seen a gun outside a presidential event. If Obama gives in to the right-wingers, he will be encouraging them to violence on every issue -- the environment, energy independence, education, every issue.

If you recall, when the doctors demonstrated for single payer in Baucus' Senate committee hearings, they were escorted out by guards. The tea-baggers were not asked to leave the town halls even when they completely drowned our congress representatives down. Who is getting strong-armed here?

He and we won this election. Obama has to step up to the plate and act like a winner. If he doesn't represent us and act like a winner, we will not support him in the next election.

[Enthusiast]

107. What good would it do?

"If Obama gives in on this, we liberals will have to start getting out into the streets again to show that we can be louder than the right-wingers."

The M$M has shown us they won't be there with the cameras if we show up to protest. They simply pretend there was no protest, the public doesn't even hear about it. But when 45 loud tea baggers protest the MSM behaves as if there are thousands and their cause is righteous.

[jeffbr]

33. Compromise is weakness to Republicans

Times have changed since Clinton was president.

[JDPriestly]

44. The public option is a compromise.

No public option. No support from me. This is minimal. Obama has failed on so many, many issues. He has appointed conservatives to every important post. I think the only liberal is Hilda Solis, and she appears to have utterly no power or pull.

Obama is losing any confidence I had in him very quickly. George W. Bush was not stupid enough to treat his base like Obama treats us.

Better no reform than half-reform.

[BlueDemKev]

140. I know you're mad, but please think about this.....

You would rather starve than take half the loaf? If we do nothing, we will be exterminated in the 2010 elections, and the reigns of power will be in the hands of freaks we saw disrupting the town hall meetings last month!

[Donnachaidh]

173. If a POS bill is passed without a public option, you can bet the Dems will be

kicked out in 2010. It's simple-minded in the extreme to think that people will *settle* for half a loaf. And the crap being cooked in washington right now doesn't even qualify as a loaf of anything -- it's yet more mandated shit the consumer has to pay out to corporations.

[Missy Vixen]

183. But-but-but they'll WIN! We can't go after the members of our own party that are selling us out!

This has been going on since Carter was in office.

We gave Obama EVERY TOOL he needed to succeed -- the White House with an overwhelming victory. Approval ratings in the sixties. Sixty votes in the Senate. A strong majority in the House.

WHAT MORE DOES HE NEED? How about a spine, for instance?

The Democratic Party has been fundraising for the past twenty-plus years on "kicking the bogeyman out". Imagine my surprise to find out it was members of my own friggin' party! You don't think fighting back is valid? If we don't, we DESERVE the "freaks" that will get elected in 2010.

[BlueDemKev]

262. Every Tool?

Yes, he had every tool until he treaded on perhaps the most explosive domestic issue of our time....health care reform.

BLUE DOG DISTRICTS:
If the Democratic Party had put up Kennedy-type, progressive Democrats to run in these rural, redneck places, they would have been lucky to receive 30% of the vote. Regrettably, the only way to win in these districts (and get a majority in Congress) is to put up more center-right Democrats.

We have to play with the cards we've been dealt.

[dana_b]

60. nope

as another poster stated in post 41 - "We may not have a lot of time left to turn things around on this planet and I'll be dipped it I continue to get sucked into the Democrat/Repuke melodrama. If the dems can't figure this out then they can both take flying leaps as far as I'm concerned." That's exactly how I feel too. Fuck the compromising politics. We need a strong public option that has the possibility of growing into something better. The corporations are ruining the economy, our government and the planet. Should we reward them?? No way.

Those behind the PO (including Obama) should stop playing politics and Mr/Ms Nice Guy and strong arm the blue dogs and other corporate dems. Get the damn thing passed and start helping the people who need it most.

[ChiciB1]

67. Well, STRONG ARMED Democrats Are Pretty Much D-E-A-D! Greed

and corporatism is the name of the game! I'm going down swinging, but I pretty much KNOW I'm going DOWN!!

We either UNITE against this corruption or it's EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF!! I have NO answers, but am open to suggestions as long as it doesn't include giving MORE MONEY to those who don't give a S--t for "we the people!"

[dana_b]

77. I'm with ya!

and I wish that I had the answers too. E-mailing and writing our fearless (haha) leaders doesn't seem to do much but I keep doing it. The only thing I know that I can do is vote my conscience. No more $$, as you said. sigh...

[ChiciB1]

79. It's A Sad Day In The Neighborhood!! n/t

[katkat]

87. Re: Well, STRONG ARMED Democrats Are Pretty Much D-E-A-D! Greed

So, find the actual Democrats and give money and volunteer for them, whether they've in your state or not. People with track records and spines. Not a cent to DINOs.

[ChiciB1]

181. Sweetie, IF I Could Find Them I Surely Would Give It My Best! Big Problem!

Said it before, many times! Those who are NOW our elected officials have TWO things, and they are BIG things in their favor!

1) NAME RECOGNITION! Not enough people pay attention and vote for "a name!"

2) THEY'VE GOT THE MONEY!! And MONEY TALKS!!

Oh, there's a third... they have "people" who "have their backs" who know "other people" to keep them sitting right where they are!!!

[ChiciB1]

182. Forgot To Add... Do You Remember Ned Lamont?? What Fif THEY Fo

to help him?? Our beloved Democrats!!!

[pattmarty]

61. If the public option is dropped, which I believe it will be, then he will...............

..........be trying all the more for "bipartisanship". The final bill will look eerily like the "Medicare Reform bill" that Bush passed and we all know how shitty that is. You won't end up with 90% of what "we" want, maybe 50% if we're lucky. My guess is there will be no more "pre-existing" conditions, maybe doing away with lifetime "caps" but more likely not. There will be the Republican "idea" of having ALL the health insurance companies being to sell in all markets (across state lines), but that will mean actually less regulation, more like the "wild west" which the insurance companies will love. So, NO, if there is no public option AND other needed regulations, then NO BILL. It's only going to get worse where even these gun toting, crazy, right wing ass holes will be for Medicare for all in a few years.

[truedelphi]

175. I agree. If there is no public option, then we have to

Persuade the Progressive Caucus in the House to see to it that the Bill is killed.

I trust them more than any President we have yet elected. They always do what is right, they never need to be "Set straight" and they didn't vote for the war, nor for the Bernanke/Geithner giveaways to the banksters who are creating yet another jobless "recovery" based on the Greenspan Bubble Theory of Economic recovery.

[Bluenorthwest]

74. That premise could not be more incorrect

This idea that compromise is the entirety of politics is insane. You really want to be compromising with whatever is there to meet half way? How far to the right are you willing to go? Because to be a 100% compromiser, you need to be ready, willing and able to compromise with the extreme right wing, with racists and authoritarians.
Do you propose that we compromise with those known as Birthers? Are they part right, in need of a meeting spot half way twixt Hawaii and Kenya? How exactly do you suggest compromising with that? If politics is entirely compromise, you'd best have a good answer for that. And for this one, how do you, personally in life, compromise with bigots who see others as less than fully human? 3/5ths or what?
Compromise can be a component of politics, if there is good faith on both sides, otherwise, forget it. And even then, compromise can only come via negotiations, hard fought from the position of 100% what we want.

[bvar22]

95. The you give the Bill to The Senate....

...and MAKE these assholes STAND UP in PUBLIC and vote AGAINST it.
The ONE thing you DON'T DO is roll over to their extortion!

[jonestonesusa]

103. But how do we know the bill doesn't have support till it gets there?

Why not propose the bill, debate it, get behind it, and let people make their votes in the open? Or else, what good is a 60 vote majority in the Senate?

edited to acknowledge that others have made this point...

[cascadiance]

112. You "compromise" here, you will NEVER get anything your way!

There is no room to hold back now! THIS is the time to fight the battle! If you don't, it will be a sign that you will ALWAYS lose and those on the other side will ALWAYS win, even if they have a 40-60 minority.

Democrats need some cahones now! America is expecting them too, or they will find it hard to EVER get the support they got for Obama in 2008 again! Too many people will NEVER trust their words again!

[BlueDemKev]

143. Thank you, it's what I've been saying all along

Glad that I'm not alone here about being ready to compromise (with the Blue Dogs, that is). :)

WE DON'T HAVE THE VOTES IN EITHER HOUSE TO PASS A PUBLIC OPTION RIGHT NOW. Let's take SOMETHING, not nothing.

[mike_c]

185. like buying a car without wheels....

Something rather than nothing, just not worth a damn. No thanks.

[defendandprotect]

156. Compromise our Founders made with slavery caused the Civil War -- !!!

Women are still fighting for equality --

and it took African Americans hundreds of years to free themselves!!

I don't think the public will stand for any more of this nonsense --

at least I hope not --

Obama is beholden to the "for profit" heath care industry -- he's

'PRE-BRIBED' AND 'PRE-OWNED' ....

But he still has a choice -- he can become a new FDR or he can become Carter!

[rpannier]

192. It's funny how people keep throwing out the word compromise

and then compromise is viewed as weak.

He could get Senators like Ben Nelson to vote for it, or at the very least, step aside and not work against it.
But he's unwilling to do so.

[WillParkinson]

17. That's ridiculous!

If he had the backing of the Democrats there would be no problems.

I don't agree about much with him, but he is not the only one to blame here.

[dr_aswan]

20. I think HE would rather have a "hard time" with the "liberals" because

HE feels those votes are a lock... He is trying to please those "undecideds" in the middle to keep those votes. He is more of a politician than we bargained for....

[Larkspur]

21. Then liberals need to start talking about finding a primary opponent for 2012

to challenge Obama for the Presidential nomination.

[ThorDem]

24. Hillary

it's the logical choice. I voted for Obama but if he can't grow a pair, I know that she'll be willing to go the distance and kick some ass.

[maglatinavi]

43. Hillary

was the right choice... I actually wrote her name in in my ballot. She wouldn't be taking all these shit from blue dogs and will be more faithful to the people. I am so disgusted I think i'll never vote or vote for a third party...:grr:

[ChiciB1]

64. Hillary Is STILL DLC --- Feingold, Sanders, Weiner... These Are Some, BUT

don't have a snow ball's chance in Hell!!

Haven't you heard, us "lefties" are just so "over with!" Iron Maidens of the PAST!! But Dahum, we STOOD for something!!

[on point]

91. Add in some other Dem Heroes with SPINE, imho

Congressman Robert Wexler and Senator Sheldon Whitehouse

[SandWalker1984]

65. Hillary wanted a mandated insurance w/o a public option.

Or have you forgotten her position on health care reform from the primaries?

Hillary at that time was one of the senators that was taking the most corporate PAC money from the health insurance companies.

The insurance companies back in December 2008 stated they would accept eliminating pre-existing conditions if they got in exchange a MANDATE for all Americans to buy their overpriced private health insurance.

Apparently Hillary got compromised early on. So how would her being in charge be any different?

After all, she and Bill "earned" over $100 million since leaving the White House in debt.

[katkat]

94. Not HIllary

Not Hillary. She and Bill are the DLC. And her mandated insurance with no public option is a giant gift to BigInsuramce and backbreaking financially to many people.

We need someone with guts. I hope a real electable possibility shows up in 2012, but if not, a mass of Democratic votes going not to Obama but to anyone else and third parties in the general ought to get their attention.

[Mithreal]

122. Hillary was DLC all the way. Wake up. But she is a fighter, no? nt

[Aramchek]

47. ahahahahahahahahahahah haaaaa!!!!

[JDPriestly]

52. Hillary is too conserfvative.

Let's go for Kucinich or Wiener. I am very impressed with Wiener.

[polichick]

59. imo Hillary is smart - but just as corporate and more of a hawk. Not good. nt

[MessiahRp]

84. Yeah Liberals would toss Obama overboard for an even further right leaning Dem

After all that's why so many progressives supported her in the primaries right? Oh wait....

[bvar22]

98. Hillary is NO Liberal.

She was the only candidate more conservative than Obama.

[ThorDem]

115. I know

and that's why I didn't vote for her either. Also her hawkishness on O'Reilly.

These guys work for us, and if we make an example of Obama (although his AFL-CIO speech pretty much convinced me he's going for the public option) no Democratic politician will screw with the progressive-left anymore.

Maybe Hillary isn't the answer - I don't really know. Clearly this board doesn't care for her. I'd rather have Kucinich as he is a fellow vegan, but I don't think he has much of a chance.

[Mithreal]

124. Welcome to DU. nt

[ThorDem]

134. Thank you!

[cascadiance]

116. The corporatists won when Edwards dropped out...

Well, they probably already won when the choice narrowed to him because of his stupid backroom behavior, but this was all part of the plan!

[polichick]

26. Howard Dean - to represent the democratic wing of the Democratic Party. nt

[Vincardog]

28. Dean/Kucinich 2012

[polichick]

30. REAL healthcare for all AND a Dept. of PEACE?? Sounds great to me! nt

[rpannier]

193. Explain the difference between the State Dept and the Dept of Peace

I've seen Kucinich talk about it and there seems to be no substantive difference.

In addition to which, the Dept would be whatever the President wanted it to be -- a Dept of Peace under George Bush would have reflected the Bush/Cheney vision of what peace is.

[bamacrat]

51. I second that Hillary wouldnt be much different just a female version.

The only ones who are not owned seem to be Kucinich and Dean and a few others. Obama is losing us, Im still with him but if he caves on this then it just furthers the weak liberal idea, and we need to stop that. Bush pushed so much shit through with a tiny majority we can push anything through with an overwhelming majority. Either we're scared or owned, probably both.

[dana_b]

62. if only...

I would love that!!

[cascadiance]

118. Or if the primary battle fails, do a John Anderson, and have Sanders/Dean

... or a pair like that as an independent or leading a new party, if Sanders is already heading it up and needs a running mate at that point.

[BlueDemKev]

141. Oh Yeah....

That's a great idea. That defeat we'd suffer would make the Mondale-Ferraro ticket look respectable.

Would you please be serious!?!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

200. If they can't deal with the most important issues of the day, they will deserve to lose

like the Whigs who spent ten years being wishy-washy about slavery.

[TerribleLarryDingle]

166. They'd get my vote

:toast:

[truedelphi]

172. +1. n/t

[katkat]

254. Dean/Kucinich 2012

My dream ticket.

[JDPriestly]

53. He would be a great choice. I suggested Kucinich or Wiener

but Howard Dean would be better.

[polichick]

55. I like Kucinich too, but imo Dean would have a better chance...

and I definitely think Wiener is someone to watch ~ he's tough and speaks the truth without flinching.

[pattmarty]

68. Hillary, Howard Dean?????????????????????

[Krashkopf]

100. Draft HOWARD DEAN!

[Mithreal]

125. Too early to call for a Dean/Jones ticket 2016? nt

[rpannier]

195. If health care becomes a human debacle and an insurance bonanza

then people aren't waiting for 2016

[rucky]

35. and he would be wise to calculate it that way.

Which makes me want to crawl out of my skin and scream sometimes.

[Paladin]

37. There's Nothing New About A Democratic President Taking Liberals For Granted.

Happens all the time, unfortunately. Obama wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't plenty of evidence that he could get away with it.....

[mod mom]

40. We're the "legs" of the party for GOTV. The Dems are in for a big surprise if they take

us for granted.

[katkat]

89. less of a politician

He's less of a politician than we bargained for, because he doesn't realize he's pushed the base past the point where we will support him in the next election.

[Mithreal]

121. Spot on. nt

[Donnachaidh]

174. those votes are NOT a lock - and he'd better wake the f*ck up about THAT mythology

:grr:

[harun]

216. It doesn't work that way. Look at B*sh's whole first term. How often did he appease

the Democrats or the Center? NEVER. You lock in your base and lock them in hard. Only way Obama can guarantee that lock is to do it with Health Care while in control of Congress. He will not have control of Congress if he keeps bowing to the RW'ers. Dem's won't vote for Pukes but they will lose enough interest many will simply stay home.

[CrispyQ]

248. The frickin' undecideds - holy shit they have a lot of power!

Instead of going for the damned assholes who are undecided, (& who but someone without any convictions could be undecided at this point?) we should go for the unregistered voters. It's a much bigger pool & IMO, they would be easier to sway - just show some fucking spine & represent We the People instead of the damned corporations!

Obama is very mistaken if he thinks the democratic wing of the democratic party is a lock. We've been screwed over & over by our own party & many of us have had it. You start to represent us or we'll stay home in '10 & '12. From my perspective, we are not going over the cliff as quickly as we would with repubs in charge, but we're still going over.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polichick]

29. Why do you say that - because there are relatively new posters...

...who are losing patience with the prez??

[Aramchek]

48. there's a difference between losing patience and never having any to start with

[polichick]

50. Calling "troll" on posters who disagree with you is, at the very least, undemocratic. nt

[Aramchek]

70. one disagreement does not a troll make

but when you see the same user doing the same things repeatedly over time,
you don't have to call them a troll, they reveal themselves

[polichick]

71. Well, we agree that "you don't have to call them a troll." nt

[zenj8]

39. I am no troll...

I'm just a long-time democrat who is terribly disillusioned. I sometimes feel alone in my fear that liberal concerns (which, in the case of single payer, seem to dovetail with a large percentage of the overall population)are being shunted to the side in favor of a bipartisanship that seems doomed to fail. I've read posts that suggest that the two parties are actually so "owned" by corporate interests that they literally can't afford to represent the people or they won't be re-elected. That is a frightening and discouraging thought.

[SandWalker1984]

32. No public option means the corporations have full control of Congress

We should then change the name of our country to the United Corporations of America as the states and our rights no longer matter in Washington. What matters is what the corporations want - they are writing the legislation and paying Congress to get it passed. We the people are no longer a part of the process.

To those of you who think a bill without a public option is better than no bill passing, think about these statistics:

Since 2002
Health Insurance Corporations profits have risen 428%.
The average premium has risen 87%.
The chance that an American WITH HEALTH INSURANCE will be bankrupted by medical bills is 7 in 10.


People, we can't let the corporations keep control of our health care. They are killing us by denying care and bankrupting us in the name of greed and ever increasing corporate profits.

The insurance companies are now taking 16% of the GDP each year from us to provide us corporate "health" care. That's much higher than any of the countries that provide universal care (which average below 10% of GDP).

Any plan at this point that does not include a strong public option is not health care reform, it is in fact A BIG HANDOUT TO THE CORPORATIONS that have brought us to the brink of poverty now.

I too am putting my line in the sand for the Democrats and the White House on this one.

It has to be done and the time is now!!!!!

[jeffbr]

34. The pharma/insurance terrorists are destroying this country

Obama has no business talking to them.

[ChiciB1]

69. Bless John Edwards, Rat That Most Think He Is... He DID Say You Can't

sit down at the table with insurance/pharma because THEY'LL EAT ALL THE FOOD!!

Gobble, gobble... yum, yum!

[Mithreal]

126. Spoke out for the poor as well, and who speaks for them now? nt

[rrneck]

36. If this thing comes out of the

sausage grinder looking anything like a payoff to big business or anything short of meaningful and affordable health care for everyone my vote goes elsewhere.

[dmosh42]

38. He needs to demand a vote on a plan with the public option....

and that will put enormous pressure on the 'corporate' type Dems, who don't want to have to make a public vote. Once they vote against it, we know who the 'enemy' is. Those people need to be voted out of office. This is still considered the party of FDR, but can hardly define itself with these 'Rahm Emanuel' type politicians.

[kestrel91316]

42. We need to keep the pressure on him. No more Harvey Milquetoast Democratic spinelessness!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. That's an understatement

He's going to have to stop all that "preemptive compromising" if he wants to have ANY credibility with ANYONE.

The current Republican Party is run by bullies. As such, trying to compromise with them (as Clinton did) is equivalent to gluing a "Kick Me" sign onto your butt.

However, in my most pessimistic moments, I fear that Obama is fulfilling his assignment perfectly.

[stevedeshazer]

66. What you said.

:thumbsup:

[USA_1]

72. It Will Be A more Difficult Time With Independents

As an Indy, I can tell you that the majority of my peers voted for Obama and the Dems because of the promise of health care reform.

Like it or not, if there is no public option, there will be no further support from me or other Indys.

[dana_b]

80. yep

I'm an indy too, a very left-ist indy, and I can't see this being worth a damn without a strong, govt. sponsored PO.

[L0oniX]

82. +1

[Mithreal]

128. Just talking to Independents at a Garage Sale, NAFTA and trade policy as well. nt

[Xenotime]

73. Zero compromise. 100% public option or I am voting for somebody else.

[dr_aswan]

123. I think its time to start looking....

[SammyWinstonJack]

169. +1 nt

[Mithreal]

132. Can't just say it on a board, call and write the White House and other Reps.

Keyboarding protest doesn't go very far. I would guess you already do, just saying.

[joeycola]

243. If not already done--write a lette HERE: September 2009 Reminder -- Million Letters for Health Care

Forum Name General Discussion: Presidential
Topic subject If not already done--write a lette HERE: September 2009 Reminder -- Million Letters for Health Care
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8634806#8634875
8634875, If not already done--write a lette HERE: September 2009 Reminder -- Million Letters for Health Care
Posted by joeycola on Tue Sep-08-09 02:56 PM




Go back to previous topic
Forum Name General Discussion: Presidential
Topic subject September 2009 Reminder -- Million Letters for Health Care Campaign
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8634707#8634707
8634707, September 2009 Reminder -- Million Letters for Health Care Campaign
Posted by joeycola on Tue Sep-08-09 01:38 PM


I am going to give it a push. *I invite you to do so also.

September 2009 Reminder -- Million Letters for Health Care Campaign


|
[e-mail]

5 September 2009 -------- September reminder --------

To: Participants in the Million Letters for Health Care Campaign

Important: please do not forward. Instead, inform and invite others by going to http://www.medicareforall.org/invite.php

This is your September reminder to print and send your letter to help get improved Medicare for All: non-profit single-payer national health insurance via U.S. House Resolution 676.

We suggest that you personalize your letter with a hand-written note.

==== SUGGESTION: select one of these to write or use as an idea for what you write ====
September 2009

People in other free-market countries wonder why we have not implemented low-cost high-quality health care for all like they did. It's time for us to act!

We know from President Obama's position in 2003 that he will sign if people communicate in every Congressional District. We are now communicating!

People need to automatically have full health care for their entire lives to improve the quality of life and help people have good preventive care.

People need to automatically have full health care for their entire lives to improve the quality of life without having any major medical bills.

We want this one action that will save families up to $8,000 per year in addition to possibly saving up to $2,500 per year with additional actions.

==============================

STEPS TO PRINT AND SEND YOUR LETTER

http://www.medicareforall.org/pages/Print_Your_Letter#printsteps

The last step links to "extras": additional actions to consider.

INVITE YOUR FRIENDS

http://www.medicareforall.org/invite.php

VISUALIZE SUCCESS TO HELP MAKE IT HAPPEN

http://www.medicareforall.org/pages/Vision

Thanks: thanks very much for using the Invite Your Friends feature. It's been helping increase the number of participants ... now at 1,000. Please help increase that number to 10,000 by the October 1 by spreading the word.

All the best for your health and health care,

Bob Haiducek on behalf of the many people across the U.S. who are working hard to halt the number of hardships due to our current inefficient, uncaring way to pay for health care.

==============================


P.S. For Your Reference in Conversations --------

If you are among fellow activists, please consider bringing up the subject of the contents of this "Help Get Care" document:
http://www.medicareforall.org/files/helpgetcare.pdf
or its corresponding web page.

If you are among people who are supportive of single-payer and would like to know more, please consider these documents:
http://www.medicareforall.org/files/benefits.pdf
or its corresponding web page
and
http://www.medicareforall.org/files/twochoices.pdf
or its corresponding web page.

[Bluenorthwest]

78. I do not identify Democrats by the tee shirt

and no longer will I vote for the Republicans in Dem clothing. I will also never, ever again vote for any politician who does not strongly support equal rights for all human beings, no more religionist excuses for being a living, breathing supporter of discrimination against minorities. No more.

[Mithreal]

133. Agnostics and atheists need representation, in 100% agreement. nt

[YewNork]

81. Just remember - if this divides us we may be playing right into the GOP's hands.

Sometimes you have to realize when you can win and when you can't. Some Republicans would like nothing more than to see absolutely no change
implemented because the Democrats can't come to an internal agreement.

I don't want to see another 15 years go by before we get another opportunity to reform health. Some people may have to compromise on both ends
in order for some progress to be made.

I hope the public option does go through, but other countries do offer universal countries without one, and if we can't get one now, I'd still like to see
the infrastructure put in place so that in the future, we could eventually get one.

What I don't want is the status quo for another 20 years.

[oct2010]

88. have to follow his daily poll #'s like his admin people do

Honestly, what % of dems make up the center. And what % make up the liberal leaning members ? There will be trade offs,sellouts and back room deal made in order to pass healthcare.
That's life inside the beltway

[bvar22]

104. At this point, the polls are unreliable.

I still give Obama the highest marks possible in every public poll, but I'm ready to kick his Centrist/Corporate/ WarMongering ass down the road ASAP.
I'm not alone.
His "support" in the polls is VERY soft.

I WILL give him this:
Man, he is a smooth talker,

but I don't see any way for him to pull one out of his ass on Wednesday night.
EVEN if he DEMANDS that HR 3200 be passed AS IS, the MAJORITY of Americans are going to be very disappointed when they open their NEW Health Care Package and find a BIG bill from the For Profit Health Insurance Industry.

HR 3200 (the most "liberal" Bill currently in Congress) should be named.
"The Health Insurance Industry Profit Protection Bill"

[on point]

99. We Aren't Divided. Its the dems vs the fakes

Single payer is the position. Public option is the compromise. There is great unanimity in this statement. The division is between those interested in real change and those proposing fake change. We aren't going to accept fake change. Any pols or staff members lurking here better be clear on this.

The DINO sores are risking support if they do not listen and hear that people are fed up and do not want to be mollified anymore with 'reform' that is all marketing hype and no substance. Change we can believe in is real change, not a change in marketing message, or some watered down nonsense.

The time is for unity in standing up to those spineless DINO sores that keep caving in and selling us out like the corporate shills they are. ENOUGH ALREADY!

[Divine Discontent]

119. exactly! Single Payer is the position. Public Option is ALREADY the compromise.

Don't even back down President Obama - or you'll be a one termer and a strong 3rd party (Dean?) will pop up. This is a huge majority - don't lose it by not using it!

[Mithreal]

137. I look forward to reading more that you write. Spot on. nt

[flyarm]

187. +1

[cascadiance]

120. That is what OBAMA and RAHM should remember!

AND he should remember it is WE, not Republicans or Blue Dogs that put him into office! Don't put this on us! If he doesn't care that we lose, well, I don't care about jumping on someone else's ship, even if it takes longer for us to get to harbor!

[treestar]

127. Exactly, and that is the point of negative DU posts

And the left falls for it, every time. That's why we are where we are now. Not because of right wing nuts. Because of left wing nuts.

[Mithreal]

135. Damn good point. Keep raising it. nt

[BlueDemKev]

139. Absolutely Agree

Every time we liberals try to push sweeping changes we crash into fierce opposition, a unified right, and defeat at the next election. We have to make these changes incrementally. It may take 10 years to get exactly where we want to be, but hey, how long did it take to bring about civil rights or women's equality?

We all want the public option now, but as I've said before, there aren't enough votes in both the House and Senate to pass it. It sucks, but it's an unfortunate reality. Let's do what we can now....like ending outrageous pre-existing condition exclusions, etc.

We cannot afford to keep the status quo any longer!!! Let's take the first step towards reform NOW!

[flyarm]

188. people don't get sick "incrementally" and the insurance comapny doesn't let me pay them

"incrementally"..i pay them $2,000.00 bucks a month...and hubbys employers pay 2/3rds!!...nothing incremental about it!

and when people have to pay for this shit..it won't be "incremental"

HERE FOR UP TO DATE GARBAGE BEING PROPOSED BY OUR DEM LED SENATE.


http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/09/07/shocking-baucus-bill-transcribes-rahmsnowe-deal-on-triggers/


Baucus Bill: Forcing Americans To Buy Junk Insurance They Can’t Afford to Use
By: Jane Hamsher/B]
Monday September 7, 2009 6:39 am

November 2008: Max Baucus circulates a white paper -- the "generic Democratic health care plan" -- which includes a public plan, and an emphasis on affordability and availability.

September 2009: Max Baucus circulates a health care bill forcing low- to middle-income to buy "junk" insurance they can't afford to use to earn Republican support, which amounts to a giant transfer of wealth to the insurance industry.

We'll be watching closely to see if any members of the veal pen are dragged out to validate this middle class travesty.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

202. "We" liberals, you say?

What do you mean "we"?

[BlueDemKev]

261. Please clarify your question

[bowens43]

208. There will be no other opertunity.

This is the defining moment in Obama's presidency. If he doesn't deliver health reform with a public option then he has lost my vote.
So far , on the issues that are most important to me he has failed to differ any significant way from his predecessor. He made me believe and now I am starting to see that letting my guard down was a mistake.

[misanthrope]

218. Other opportunities may come quicker than you think...

...The problems stemming from our broken health care system are climbing at an alarming rate and exacerbating an already dour economic picture.

[kevsters]

101. The Health Insurance Companies do not make that much money!!!

How removed from reality are these right wing wackos when they do not think that the insurance industry is making obscene profits? Case in point, George Will in this video.

http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2815

[rpannier]

196. They don't make that much money

when compared to the Oil companies

[diane in sf]

129. We'll not have good policy until we get corporate money out of our campaign processes

[RoccoR5955]

130. If there's no public option, there will be a PRIMARY

in 2012!

KUCINICH/SANDERS '12!

[BlueDemKev]

142. Are You Serious...???

And watch us lose all 50 states.

[cascadiance]

167. That's the question Obama needs to ask himself first if he bails on progressives this week!

Because YES! There many of us that figure we really don't have much to lose any more, if no matter which of the two major parties get elected, they work for the corporations instead of us! When you push people to the point where they no longer have anything to lose, that's when they do things like try to unite behind a new party, etc. Might not work, but I'd rather die trying to create a good thing rather than continue to see this country destroyed by two corrupt parties that's getting to a critical point now.

[BlueDemKev]

190. Remember 2000?

You are sounding exactly like the Ralph Nader voters did in 2000. Remember how well that liberal revolt worked out?

Over 97,000 disillusioned liberals in Florida voted for Ralph Nader instead of Al Gore. Thanks to that act of stubborness, we suffered for 8 years of Bush/Cheney. Does anyone actually believe that a Gore presidency would have been no different from Bush's?

A Democratic-contolled Congress and White House will get us to where we want to be, but for pete's sake, it can't all be done in a single year!

[bvar22]

199. YES!

All we need is 70 seats in The Senate....
Then you'll see some action !!!

Send in your donation TODAY!

[RoccoR5955]

228. When they don't vote our way and we have 70 seats in the Senate you'll say

"All we need is 80 seats in the Senate."
When that fails, you'll say 90, then 100.
Give me a break!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

203. But there are more angry Dem voters than there were in 2000

I'm one of many people who was all set to vote for Nader as a protest vote against corporate domination and chicken shit centrism (I never did like Gore--founding member of the DLC and supporter of the Contras) in 2000 but changed my mind because the race looked close in Oregon.

I've never heard SO MANY Dems express their disgust. Never. They feel as if they're getting Bush's third term.

[cascadiance]

214. I think it is clearer now to many voters that corporations run the show!

I think many more realize now unless enough of us stand up to show that we won't be taken for granted any more, we'll always get screwed for corporate interests.

When we all become convinced we no longer have anything left to lose, no longer will we be a fringe and enough of us will vote to make a difference. Now if the Dems don't like the prospect that either the Republicans or a new party could win with a lot of defections then they DAMN WELL BETTER START LISTENING TO THEIR BASE!

Those politicians in power have far more options to start working for us, than we have of twisting their arms (other than voting them out of office)! If they push us hard enough, we'll have to use the only way we have to make them answerable enough, riskier or not! It's the only way we can avoid living in a dictatorship.

[misanthrope]

219. Yeah, it had nothing to do with the electoral system or the SCOTUS**nm

**

[BlueDemKev]

234. That's Irrelevant

We can complain about the post-election debacle in Florida forever, but the fact is, if those Nader voters had voted for Gore, the entire fiasco would never have happened in the first place!!!

[CrispyQ]

249. My take is that if Gore had been more of a democrat,

"the entire fiasco would never have happened in the first place!!!"

Blaming Nader is a convenient cop out for those who refuse to see that the democratic party no longer represents We the People.

[BlueDemKev]

251. Oh, PLEASE....

Oh, brother....do you still think there was no difference between Gore and Bush???

Nader's candidacy and those who voted for him, more than anything, led directly to the election of the worst f--k--g president this country ever had!!!

[CrispyQ]

253. Clearly you prefer to blame the Nader voters instead of the real culprit -

a democratic party that has turned it's back on it's base. :eyes: I was a Nader voter. For 20 years prior to that, I was a non-voter. If Nader hadn't run I wouldn't have voted, so Gore wouldn't have got my vote anyway. I'm sick of Nader blamers. Face the facts - our party has thrown us under the bus in favor of big money.

[BlueDemKev]

259. Fanaticism Caused our Defeat in 2000

We lost in 2000 because left-wing extremists turned their back on Clinton's "Third Way" approach in favor of all-out looney-leftism.

HERE ARE THE FACTS:
Bush won Florida by 537 votes. Nader got over 97,000 votes in that state. Do you actually think that at least 538 (half of ONE percent) of those voters would not have voted for Gore?

Thanks to the stubborness of people like you, Bush & Cheney were allowed to drive this country off a cliff and we will cleaning up this mess for decades!

If you STILL believe there was no difference between Gore and Bush, then talking to you "would be like talking to a dining room table."

[CrispyQ]

264. You're rude & not worth any more of my time.

x(

[BlueDemKev]

266. Well, you're entitled to your opinion....

...but I assure you...we cannot bring about progressive change all at once in a center-right country. It needs to be done incrementally, or it won't happen at all. :bluebox:

[cascadiance]

271. And Center-RIGHT is what Rahm and the Dems are moving us to now...

If they bend over on health care reform, drop EFCA, don't prosecute torture, etc.

The corporatist agenda of the DLC segment of the Democratic Party that uses Republican votes to control our party now wasn't as visible then, but it sure as hell is now. When you get to the point that you get right wing and/or corporatist agendas whether you vote for a Dem or a Republican, then that's the time to start something new.

Now, I wish one of the last two elections that Nader had been a bit smarter about his candidacy and said that in exchange for him pulling out and supporting the Democrats, they would have to pass instant runoff voting. Instant runoff voting prevents the worst of three candidates from getting elected when the other two split the progressive voters, and also challenges the Dems to answer more to their progressive base or possibly get voted out by someone like Nader. That way we don't have the "devil option" of someone like Bush. If Nader had tried to do that the last election, we'd be in good shape for the midterms now to help push in more progressive candidates without the threat of getting Republicans in instead.

If we want our country back, rescue ourselves from economic meltdowns, rescue ourselves from climate change meltdowns, we either need the progressives to start controlling the Democratic Party again, or start a new party that can affect this change.

I also won't accept the blame for what happens with independent candidates like Nader. We have limited choices with our power to vote (which IRV would help us with). The party itself has so many more options to do the right thing to mobilize its base. When it fails to the point of no return, then it leaves us no choice but to take the only risky options left to us of voting third party. They have to realize that we will take that choice at some point when THEY FAIL us too many times for it to be a periodic accident and not a symptom of decay of the party's values by those in office!

Scum like Baucus Cockus either need to become Republicans (which ARE his true values) or get voted out. At least if he were Republican he currently wouldn't have a committee chair and block everything on the Finance Committee.

[bvar22]

205. It won't be OUR fault.

It WILL be the Democratic Party's fault.

[RoccoR5955]

229. I'm very serious!

If Obama throws WE THE PEOPLE under the bus, than he does not deserve a second term, and we have to put up a candidate for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations!

[BlueDemKev]

235. Then we'll ALL be thrown under the bus...

...smooshed, and skidded across the road by corporate America.

Don't ever take action based solely on emotion.

[RoccoR5955]

236. Not if we ORGANIZE! n/t

[BlueDemKev]

252. Organization Alone Will Not Do It....

We ARE organized, how the heck do you think we got Obama elected along with a huge majority in Congress?

The problem is, the opposition is also extremely organized and well-funded, and regrettably, the average American has a deep-seeded fear of government (which is beyond me). Given that, let's take what we can get. PLEASE...let's not let this great opportunity pass us by. It will be the first step to our ultimate goal...univeral health coverage for EVERY American.

[RoccoR5955]

255. Well then, we have to organize more, and better.

Bring those people on the fringes closer to us. Ask them why they don't trust government. Ask them why they vote for people who say that government cannot work, and then, when elected, prove it.

Funding is not everything. If we get out more people than the corporations get out, and vote, and hold the politicians' feet to the fire, we can get things done. Too many people stopped working after Election Day last year. The REAL work, is AFTER Election Day.

We need a public option, otherwise, it will be just another corporate welfare program. This time it will be for the insurance corporations.

WE, THE PEOPLE

NOT

them, the corporations!

[BlueDemKev]

258. In a free market economy....

....there will always be big businesses and corporations. That's just a natural product of a free market society.

It seems to me that the unwillingness to compromise on health care reform stems from deep resentment of Corporate America.

Corporations themselves are not a bad thing. The computer you're working on right now, the chair you are sitting in, the car you drive, your television, and the clothes you have on were all made by corporations. If it weren't for successful individuals who built big, successful businesses, there wouldn't be any wealth with which to finance Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

The problem is money...whoever has the most cash can more easily advertise and get their word out better than their opponent(s). And unfortunately, most Americans don't take the time to research the issues at hand and believe whatever they hear from on the airways or blogs. That is why it's so important that we pool our resources together to get OUR message out.

Mandating insurance coverage is absolutely essential if we are to eliminate pre-existing exclusions. Because, if more money is going out, more money will need to come in. That goes for anything, be it a private company or a federal governmental program.

Conservative talk radio is blasting the compromise ideas of co-ops and a public option "trigger." I heard Sean Whannity saying today that these ideas are nothing but a "back-door" way for Democrats to "bully the insurance companies." :wtf: If the right-wingers are so much against this, there MUST be something good about it.

Yes, we are all frustrated with the greed that takes place in private companies, but let's not allow our anger over that destroy our opportunity to begin taking the first big step towards the security of health insurance for every single American.

Come on, guys...let's pass this plan, and let's get on with this country's future.

:dem: :dem: :dem: :dem:

[RoccoR5955]

260. What's so "free" about the economy,

if people cannot afford to pay for doctors, and go bankrupt simply to live, if they get sick?
SCREW the "free" market in this case. The free market is for commodities like pork bellies, not people's lives!
NO MORE PROFIT ON THE SICK!
It's simply immoral!

[BlueDemKev]

265. I agree, however....

...what you are seeking is unobtainable right now. Most Americans want to maintain having private companies provide insurance instead of only the government. We have to accept that reality. This doesn't mean that we can't prohibit insurance companies from denying coverage to someone with a pre-existing condition (or charging higher premiums to those who do). And we can tell the insurance companies here and now, you've got X amount of time to shape up, or there WILL be a public option. You will see them scramble.

[RoccoR5955]

267. You tell those corporations that they have to shape up,

and their lawyers will find loopholes. If they are controlled as to what they can charge, and who they can insure, they will scream bloody murder, and their lackeys they pay to make the laws will scream for them. That's what August was all about.

I have private insurance, and would ditch it in a NY minute, if I could get insurance from ANYONE who only has 5% administrative overhead! I think that if more people knew this, that Medicare for all would be a shoe-in. This is what the corporations are worried about. If the government undercuts them, their execs will not be able to maintain their lifestyle.

[RoccoR5955]

270. I will not accept more corporate welfare

and this is what the Cons want. Insurance companies cry bloody murder if they cannot hike their rates or say who they can and cannot cover. They will call it 'socialism.' If you give them any amount of time to shape up, they will say that they need more time, and more time, ad infinitum. Their lawyers will find loopholes, and use them to soak the insured for more of their hard earned money, without giving them proper coverage.
WE THE PEOPLE cannot, and should not cave to them, the corporations.
I will discontinue my support for Obama, if he signs a bill that has no public option. A public option is already a compromise from Medicare for all. The other side should give a little, and MUST give a little, and not give any more of our tax dollars to corporations, who are in business, only to rip people off.

[CLANG]

146. I'm supporting Kucinich until he drops out - just like I did last time

Maybe he will be able to stay in the race longer if all the pissed off democrats finally figure it all out!

[cascadiance]

168. I'll support Kucinich, Dean or Weiner in the coming election primaries...

And if none of them win, I'll support one of them as Barry Sanders' running mate in an independent or third party bid in the general election.

[misanthrope]

220. Not only a top-notch tailback, but a POTUS candidate too?...

...You mean Bernie Sanders?

[cascadiance]

240. HAH! You caught me with a typo!

Of course Bernie...

Must be not getting enoug sleep and looking at teoo many other right wing sites with their lame names for Obama that got my reflexes infected! :)

[MisterP]

131. but I thought WE owed our very lives to the politicos

they don't need to give We the People anything: we must give them our votes and money, bow our heads, and take our leave without asking anything for ourselves
After all, it's mushiness that brings progress: this wan conclusively proved by Hofstadter in the 40s, and there can be no disproof or improvement on his theories: Lincoln and LBJ were never ball-busters, they simply gave the conservatives half of what they wanted. This is why the 13th Amendment expired in 1900 and why Southern African-American voting rates are back to 3-12%. Those who stood up for their convictions--stiff-spined "heroes" like Buchanan and Benedict Arnold--were what kept slavery going. They were so firm and dogged that they're honored on the $5 and $1 bills, despite their refusal to compromise and play both sides.

[diane in sf]

136. mandatory insurance purchase without a good public option is not worth passing

People will be in exactly the same place they are now, only in addition to not being able to afford insurance they will be criminalized. This would be a disgusting payout to a most corrupt industry. How anyone who says they are for change or indeed any Democrat could further such a piece of garbage is beyond me.

[AllyCat]

138. That ain't the half of it.

I'm fed up with these guys. Seriously. They capitulate on EVERYTHING to keep the stupid repukes happy! And those people will NEVER be happy as long the word liberal is still in the dictionary.

Obama: Please stop worrying about these idiots and do what we elected you to do.

[MissDeeds]

144. +1 n/t

[defendandprotect]

147. Obama is there to serve the needs of the people . . .MEDICARE FOR ALL --.

is the obvious solution -- it's up and ready to go!

Let's stop pretending we're reinventing the wheel --

Meanwhile, as a liberal, I'm still amused that Obama

found it necessary to tell the public to stop questioning 9/11!!!

:evilgrin:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

150. And guess who voted him in? Wasn't the Repukes. nt

[Old Studentka]

153. If Obama drops the public option.....

...then he ought to have a "real hard time" with liberals!

[kenny blankenship]

206. he will not drop the public option

even if he signs a bill without it, he will have not dropped the public option. It just won't be there is all. He will no doubt continue to believe that a public option is --and I quote!-- "the best way" to contain costs and cover everyone. Or it would have been, you know, had it been kept in the bill. Just like he will continue to believe that Single Payer would be the best way if one were designing a health care system from scratch. His support for what's best is unwavering. It remains tragically locked in the realm of the Ideal. He really really believes these things and you gotta believe him!

All you have to do is listen to folks around here to know that Barack Obama supports the public option, forever and always, even if he ends up signing something different, like a "triggered" public option that won't be triggered until certain conditions are met and Republicans all agree with Democrats that these conditions exist. Or if he ends up signing no public option at all. He always thought it was a great idea and always will. Too bad you failed him by not fighting for it hard enough...

No, the more likely problem Democrats will confront is what to think if a bill with no working public option gets passed, and everyone including Obama claims to have an alibi. Because you can be sure, if the Public Option is found floating in the Potomac, none of the Democratic leadership will be stepping forward to take credit for pushing it off the bridge. The question will be: who among all the suspects emphatically swearing they did not drop the public option, cross their heart and hope to die! will be held accountable for in fact dropping the public option. And as regards Obama, the question will be, if he is willing to sign a bill without a working public option, whether it's absent completely, or it's fictitiously present in the form of a trigger, or an intentionally butchered mess, do we then consider that "dropping the public option" and how harshly do we judge him for it?

[juno jones]

159. Over twenty years ago I first heard Gore Vidal claim that there

was no differennce betweent he parties. My immediate reaction was "That's not true." But the intervening years have shown him to be correct.

This is one of the reasons why I got all apolitical and didn't vote for a decade.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

160. yeah and if he doesnt, the dems will.

one should remember the aftermath of bill clinton

[TankLV]

162. Obama BETTER BE LISTENING! This is his LAST CHANCE to maintain OUR support!!!

Abandone this LAST VESTIGE of ONE OF MANY positions he's thrown US under the bus, and he can KISS ANY FURTHURE SUPPORT FROM HIS BASE GOODBYE!!!

The REPUKES will NEVER support him - why is he CONTINUALLY persuing this FUTILE effort?

THE PUBLIC OPTION IS ALREADY THE "COMPROMISE" POSITION!!!

WE WANT SINGLE PAYER - MEDICARE FOR ALL!!!

But we were GENEROUS and GRACEOUS - yes GENEROUS and GRACEOUS to continue our support EVEN THO HE AND THE DEMS HAVE ALREADY CAPITULATED AND SURRENDERED TO THE REPUKE/CONSERVATIVE POSITION!!!

NO MORE!!!

We will wait to see what he actually says on Wednesday - but we're not holding our breath by any means...

[Quasimodem]

164. If President Obama's liberal supporters abandon him . . .

. . . it will not only be because he abandoned the public option.

It will also be because President Obama abandoned his liberal supporters.

[jumptheshadow]

165. Yvette Clarke is my congresswoman

Thank you, Congresswoman Clarke, from one of your constituents. I do not agree with every sentiment in this thread, but I support your statement 100 percent. Please keep on fighting for us.

Park Slope

[bvar22]

176. No matter what he does NOW,

...if the results include a MANDATORY purchase of Health Insurance, he WILL lose the Youth support.
Many of the uninsured are the Young & Invulnerable.
Forcing them to buy Health Insurance will not play well.

Making Medicare available to anyone who wants it was not only the most economical, it was also the best path politically.

Let The Republicans bash Medicare.

[flyarm]

197. Baucus Bill: Forcing Americans To Buy Junk Insurance They Can’t Afford to Use

Baucus Bill: Forcing Americans To Buy Junk Insurance They Can’t Afford to Use
By: Jane Hamsher
Monday September 7, 2009 6:39 am

November 2008: Max Baucus circulates a white paper -- the "generic Democratic health care plan" -- which includes a public plan, and an emphasis on affordability and availability.

September 2009: Max Baucus circulates a health care bill forcing low- to middle-income to buy "junk" insurance they can't afford to use to earn Republican support, which amounts to a giant transfer of wealth to the insurance industry.

We'll be watching closely to see if any members of the veal pen are dragged out to validate this middle class travesty.


http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/09/07/shocking-baucus-bill-transcribes-rahmsnowe-deal-on-triggers/

[Mimosa]

223. That SCARES me.

I already have junk insurance because it's what we can barely afford. DH and I already pay Blue Cross/Blue Shield quite a few hundred for $10,000 deductible (each) 70/30 PPO plans with both of us having 'pre-existing' exclusions of our main health problems.

[L0oniX]

177. If there's not going to be a single payer health care system then I am done caring...

about which party controls the gov. All they care about is the the money. I would however vote for Kucinich but even then I would not count any chickens before hatch time. As far as I am concerned they have abandoned me and I will abandon them too. Fucking damned country is full of idiots and sociopaths!

[BlueDemKev]

194. Well, there's not going to be one...

....a single-payer system was pretty much out of the question from the get-go. Too many Americans have a deep-seeded fear of the government running the entire health-care system.

[whistler162]

178. NTSA.... Hey CongressLLADDDY.....

You are the one that rights the bill and he is the one that siogns the bill. So if the bill ain't written the way you want it look in the mirror!

[democrat2thecore]

189. I still think in trying to please everybody - he's alienating those he needs in '12

So much so that if he doesn't stick to SOME of his campaign principles, there won't be a '12. There will be an LBJ speech. Trying to please everyone so often leaves everyone hating you. STAND UP, Mr. President.

[dpbrown]

209. Two words - One Term

I don't want to overestimate the leverage that the self-proclaimed "progressives" wield (and I'm one of them), but that being said, if Obama drops the public option, the compromise from the better position of a true single payer national health care system, then he just turned himself into Jimmy Carter, and it won't matter if it's Tim Pawlenty or some other all-hat-and-no-cattle Republican, he's looking at being a one-term President.

Time to grow a spine, Mr. President.

[bridgit]

210. Liberals were some of the first to turn on him since his choice of inaugural speakers...

on down the line to here & now and if "liberal Democrats" (presumably leadership) are expressing "growing dissatisfaction" with anything then where in the hell have they been all along!? Cause they don't seem willing to put their words & faces into news cycles so they could have been seen trying themselves if they ever were

[cascadiance]

212. Health care affects pretty much EVERYBODY!

Even if you have insurance, you are still threatened with losing it in today's environment, and even if you keep it, the consequences of the status quo will keep our economy screwed for many years to come, in addition to killing many innocent people and friends of the average person.

This IS the issue that Obama needs to decide on whether he's a member of the Democratic Party, or a member of the Corporatist Party. And the same goes for the rest of Congress too. If too many are no longer choosing to be a Democrat, then that party will die, and a new one will be formed to address the needs of the people.

I'm not trying to minimize who he selected to give that speech. That pissed me off too. So did his appointing of Rahm Emmanuel to start up the Rahm-per-room of DLC bums in his cabinet. But I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until a pivotal moment came. That moment has come now, and he needs to deliver, or there will be no reason to trust that he has anything good waiting for us later. He will show that he's owned by corporate interests instead of the people's interests.

[bridgit]

246. Oh sure, and more people should know the diff between battles & wars...

cause after having only really bloodied ourselves in the battles we stand weary and a bit ethereal before an adversary that has no intention of losing the war cause this is the one *they* picked to show up for and fight...

Too often careening from this side to that, it speaks to our disinclination to review matters of substance in 3-D real-time and they know that too as they are worming their way as we key between the cracks that indeed everybody does see

[Duke Newcombe]

211. An understatement...

like I would have a "real hard time" fitting into size 34 jeans...

[robcon]

215. Empty threat, IMO

I don't know where liberals can go... we're not going to see a new party.

-we saw what happened with Nader in 2000.
-Obama is very popular among democrats and independents (less than January - but his re-election is all but certain, IMO.


That's why the threat of a 'hard time' is empty.

[Yuugal]

233. Think outside the box a bit....

We don't need to win with a 3rd party, just make sure dems lose for a cycle and for us to make it clear to them why they lost. Since most dems are spineless losers, they will come around when they realize where their bread is buttered. For Dems that are total corporate sellouts, termination is the only option; like that bluedog asshat Arcuri in my 24th congressional district.

[robcon]

237. Just as likely, if Dems lose, more of them will become DINO's in the next cycle.

I don't think your analysis works for many districts. Most elections depend on independents, not Democrats.

The lesson learned, or reinforced, will be to follow the polls, not your conscience, in order to get elected/re-elected. That's not good.

[Yuugal]

244. I disagree

Until we break the "those progressives have nobody to vote for but us" mentality that pervades the leaders of our party, we will be getting half a loaf. This year's half a loaf will be next year's 1/4 of a loaf and so on until even crumbs will be begrudged us. I've been a loyal dem my whole life and at 44 I realize they haven't done shit for the working people in a long long time. Oh. they will give us the vaunted crumb here and there, but we are starving on crumbs and if in 2010 many of the blue dogs plaguing us go down to ignominious defeat while we hang on to our progressives, then maybe we can get real Dem's to replace our DINO's.

The lesson learned will be fuck with the base and you lose. I'm not going to be happy about 8 years of Obama DLC rule. So far its been Bush's 3rd term anyway. Schumer is out there pushing H1-b visas when we have masters degrees working at Taco Bell or not at all? Wars still raging and even being pumped up by "OUR" guy? How bout them gays? Whoops. Unions? Whoops. Nafta? Whoops. He did do stem cell research. but I'm sure that because his big pharma friends are drooling over how much they can make on it.

As far as independents, we always lose them because we promise real progressive change and disappoint them every single time. They get sick of repuke pro-corporate nonsense and are ready to try something different.....then we give them more corporate bs with a donkey sticker on it. If our party wont take a stand, then we must.

[PuppyBismark]

217. No Public Plan - Lost My vote and MY Money

I did not go door to door for 8 months nor give the funds I gave to see President Obama abandon the the people of this country. If he is this weak managing health care, then I start to worry about protecting the country too as well as everything else on his agenda.

I have called the White House four times in the past month, sent email, and posted on a few blogs.

What a disappointment! He is toast if he fails us now.

:grr: :grr:

[Hannah Bell]

224. strongly worded memos to follow.

[misanthrope]

225. At Monday's AFL-CIO appearance...

...the President's mention of a public option received the most fervent response of any portion of his speech. Let's hope that counted for something.

[dreamnightwind]

226. we still matter

As bad as Bush/Cheney was, and it was REAL bad, and as well as Obama campaigned and presented himself and an alternative worldview to wing-nut nation, and as idiotic as McCain/Palin were, the race was neck and neck until the economic collapse. We seriously could have had McCain/Palin in the whitehouse.

That's how unlevel a playing field it is. With the corporate media, the fundie crazies, and all the good-ol-boys who just can't seem to get at any facts that are real because they'd rather be spoon-fed news that conveniently supports their america-is-the-greatest-force-of-good-in-the-world reality, getting a Dem in the whitehouse isn't easy.

The crazies on both ends of the spectrum have all the passion and energy. IMHO the crazies on the left aren't so crazy, they're just left out. Anyway, it was the progressive left that drove Obama's election. We were the feet, the legs, the phone calls, the blogs, the posts, the converters of friends and relatives.

The progressive left may be expendable as far as our numbers go, but our support and energy amplifies our influence many times over.

If Obama thinks he can back into another term on a centrist corporate platform, I think he's mistaken. Without the forces like the netroots solidly behind him, he isn't likely to overcome the un-level playing field that vastly favors the right, or at least the corporate right.

And he would deserve to lose. There are many issues in this country which are clearly addressed by progressive reform. It's what has been "left out" of policy direction for a long long time now. Making the case for these reforms is not hard. How hard would it be to explain how distribution of income in this country has changed since about 1978? Not hard at all, and it's been a radical change. We badly need to fix this. Same with corporate profits in health-care. Same with the prison population explosion. Global trade without a minimum standard for worker conditions. Climate change. Pick an issue, it goes on and on. Which of these issues will a Clinton or Obama type pol solve in a way that actually goes far enough, and in the right direction, to stop the bleeding? Few if any.

It's time for progressive reforms. Not because of my partisan interest, but because those are the reforms that are required to keep this nation working. This is no time to settle for phony compromises which are actually not even in the right direction but are policies to further enrich the already rich. Settling only results in us not making the case for progressive reform. The average American would be shocked to know, for most of these issues, how messed up this country is and how it got this way. And people like Obama and Clinton won't make the case for progressive reforms. so it's up to us, and when we settle for DLC leadership, we are undermining the larger story that must be told over and over until people start to get it. The case for progressive reform is, for the most part, not being made. Given this country's dire straits, this is tragic.

We have to identify the reforms that absolutely have to happen in this country, and stick with them no matter what. Don't support candidates who are just a little better than the other guy. If they don't support real reform, let them get their energetic grassroots support from somewhere else. Frankly, I'm not sure where else they'll get it, it's hard to be passionate for a corporate centrist pol.

Primaries are the real battle-ground. Either we start having progressive candidates win primaries, or we need another party.

[lib_wit_it]

227. Exactly! Making the case would not be that hard. Where is that soaring rhetoric that sold a majority

to believe that, "Yes" we could? To vote for change we could believe in?

[robcon]

238. I disagree...

dreamnightwind wrote: "Either we start having progressive candidates win primaries, or we need another party."

The problems:

-In many of these districts, progressives will NOT win the primaries, no matter what we do.
-A third party will just result in:

1. An extreme right-wing Republican Party
2. A center-right Democratic party (mostly Blue Dogs)
3. A left wing "new" party

That would be electoral disaster for liberals, IMO.

This is not a problem that can be solved by easy solutions, IMO.

[dreamnightwind]

256. So what, support the corporate enablers?

We can win the battle of ideas, but only if we truly stick to what the country needs. It's the progressive part of the equation that has been intentionally left out, denied, for a long time now. The case for these reforms is obvious, yet for most Americans it is not even in their consciousness. Why? Because the right and the corporate center are opposed to it (and they own the media), and the left is too willing to accept anyone with a D on their name-tag instead of staying true to the reforms the people need.

The theory and ideas behind a progressive agenda are so clearly superior to their center or right counterparts, it's not even funny. The truth is on our side, big-time.

You say progressives cannot win primaries in many parts of the country, I say we just haven't established the ideological context and its practical applications so that progressive seeds can bear fruit. The right and the corporate factions are not representing the interests of the people, even in the districts you're probably thinking of. Those people have been tricked into voting against their own interests, and of course the corporate Democrats do not put up a genuine alternative, instead they try to get into office by being republican-light, which may get us some D's in office but will not get us any progressive reform. Witness the current situation.

Regarding your 3 items,

1. An extreme right-wing Republican Party
Yes I'm sure an extreme right-wing party will emerge, Republican or possibly even worse, and it will be dangerous and violent in nature. This will happen due to the ravages of corporate greed and their skills at misdirecting the anger. It will not be caused by true progressives touting true reforms that will benefit the average American. In fact I would say the lack of a true progressive agenda to point to will contribute to the circumstances that will allow a dangerous right-wing movement to emerge.

2. A center-right Democratic party (mostly Blue Dogs)
We're already there. Even those that don't self-identify as blue dogs are corporate enablers, with few exceptions.

3. A left wing "new" party
I'm not sure about this. It could happen. If so, maybe a clearly defined, progressive agenda and a fed up populace that is desperate for real solutions to the mess their lives are in will find each other and bring this party to life. I think a better path is to regain control of the Democratic party, since this country's electoral mechanisms aren't set up for more than 2 parties. Either way, though, new party or old party, it has to happen. Progressive policies are the solution for most everything that we're up against.

I think electoral disaster for liberals was to allow our party to be co-opted by centrist corporatists who use our name, our party, and ruin our reputation, all the while working on an agenda opposed to ours, and opposed to the true best interests of nearly all Americans. That's where we seem to be now.

Go ahead and support your centrists if you want, we all pick our paths. I've seen too much of this path, and IMHO it gets us further away from progressive policies, not closer to them. Bait and switch.

Our ace in the hole is that progressive reforms are actually the tools to help the lives of most Americans. The other side can lie, spin, cheat, and they may succeed in doing so, but reality, at least at this moment in time, does have a left-wing bias. We just need to be explaining that reality and standing by it, unwilling to be moved by false prophets and false profits. Once our energy is freed of trying to support empty corporate Dems, we'll have the focus and energy to drive a real agenda that is actually all about the people. When people see the value of real progressive reforms and a party that is what it says it is, it will gain momentum.

And I don't think I'm suggesting this will be easy. The ideology of it is pretty easy, all you have to do is start doing some trend analyses of what has happened in this country since the late 70's, and the policies follow from that data. People can understand things like that.

Change in distribution of income, in health care cost, in prison populations, in having to have 2 major incomes for a family to survive, in global climate crisis, in the destruction of our social safety nets, the rise in the homeless populations. They just aren't being presented with honest approaches to fixing them. Health-care, for example. A 1000-page bill written largely by lobbyists, when all we really need is to allow people to buy into Medicare.

[Echo In Light]

241. Following through on no PO, as was likely intended from the start, will reveal Dems to be a sad joke

I've actually been somewhat surprised at the public's response thus far to the "possibility" (quack) that this "reform" won't have a PO. And if it helps destroy the two party ruse, hey, I'm all for greater numbers of our populace taking the indie/3rd party route as an inevitable reaction to SELLING OUT on HC reform.

[joeycola]

242. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours I would

if I could. I do believe he will have a rough time.

[branders seine]

247. Isn't President Obama already having a hard time with liberals?

It seems so from reading blogs, listening to Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow, and listening to progressive radio.

[TheKentuckian]

257. Confusing what is needed and what is possible causes lots of heartache

Quite a few, for reasons still unclear, believed that single payer was an achievable goal. That natural led to the belief that the public option was more than within the realm of reason, a slamdunk even, when reality would tell anyone looking especially at the make up of the Senate that even the public option would be a very heavy lift with zero Republican votes or at most a couple we'd need like 10-15 economic conservatives to fold.
Sure, you can cajole, twist arms, and/or beg till the cows come home but in the end one has to accept the very real possibility that you can't get either of the Republicans and there are almost always a couple who are dug in due to local internals, dogma, being sold out, or jockeying for some other position. Now, any single asshole can derail the whole process and you can throw them out of the caucus but it still won't get you the vote.

Your outrage may be righteous, frustration earned, and your ideas may be wise but it seems contextually insane considering the system and actor in play here. Especially, when the concept wasn't being pushed anywhere near visibly until really after the election. Instead of focusing on someone for the Presidency that can't even think of a statewide election in a centrist state, activists should have been trying to drive the debate and forced the field further left on this all important issue to win the primaries.

Silver lining-Almost anything will be as good or better than what Hillary's goal was. Obama's failure would be Clinton's unqualified success and there are some still squawking about Hillary to the rescue.
Many on the left go through this, it is a cycle and why we see the undercarriage. We get fed up with Republican destruction and come back to the fold but quickly become disenchanted as too little changes to slowly, opt out again, the Republicans win and continue to slash and burn, the country moves further right as do the Democrats to stay viable.
Rinse and repeat.

Anyone unable to distinguish Republicans from Democrats has no business voting or out of the daycare. Competent management and people of expertise in positions of authority alone are way more than a dimes worth in my neck of the woods. Your mileage may vary but I doubt a dime buys even that much for the fiercest penny pincher.

The left is quite active in pushing the country to the right by dropping out when it gets frustrated. Your fighting back is otherwise interpreted as giving in, being fickle, and undependable. The party will try to lock in dependable voters not a bunch of deadenders that come on the radar only when the Republican oppression and mismanagement is completely intolerable. Voting 3rd party or sitting home isn't new the left is prone to do it as soon as we win and reality sets in again.

Just the thought that some drastic compromise was made in backing off single payer is laughable. It isn't compromising when you give up the unobtainable.
I support single payer but starting at less than double digit Senators and then to expect enough pressure, sticks, and/or carrots to get to 50 much less 60 votes for such a proposal seems intellectually dishonest to me. That seems like being asked for gas money for a trip and saying you already would have bought enough for the trip if you had a trillion dollars and that is your contribution. I don't think we should give on this either but I'm not making the case that we've compromised to justify being unmovable but rather that compromising this position will lead to a cure that doesn't work. Our objective may well be compromised but that objective is not a meaningful contribution because it is unachievable at this time. Fight for this but do so without the chip on the shoulder about already compromising because you couldn't have because your chip was one that you never had nor had any real hope of having.

Sometimes the chasm cannot be jumped at all. That's why we have bridges.

[BlueDemKev]

263. Amen, brother!

An excellent, well-reasoned argument.

[Mithreal]

268. Very good post, thank you. nt

[dreamnightwind]

269. Good post, but I strongly disagree

Well reasoned indeed, and civil too, awesome. I enjoyed reading it, and feel that this is a discussion that needs to be had, over and over again, it's the great dilemma we're up against. The practical verses actual necessity. I am clearly on the other side of this fence from you, and will take another shot at saying why.

How do we know what is possible until the case is made? Once what the country needs has been identified, the next phase is to make the case to the people and to the other pols. Who has done this? An occasional voice in the wilderness, maybe. The president with his bully pulpit, not at all.

Was Iraq War II possible before the right wing noise machine made the case for it? Hell no, it was a ridiculous idea on its face, and we were already fighting a war in Afghanistan. There was absolutely no legitimate reason for that war. And even though it wasn't what the country needed, they were still able to make the case for it.

There are many such examples. Their side decides what it wants to do, then tells us why we need them to do it. And they pull it off.

Our side identifies real needs of the country, and tip-toes around the edges of the actual needs, hoping to implement a small piece of it without offending the Democrat's corporate sponsors, and without offending the right wing.

We have the White House, both houses of congress, and many more registered Democrats than Republicans in the general population. We also have real needs that are long neglected, that the country absolutely has to take care of. No need to fabricate reasons for our policies, the reasons are real and screaming for genuine people to trumpet them.

Yet our reps won't touch real reform, or even the idea of it, with a ten foot pole. It's avoided like the plague. Too politically risky.

A lot of us are getting this figured out. It's not about the possible and the impossible. It's about whose needs are really being addressed. The needs of the health insurance agency, big pharma, military contractors, multinationals seeking cheap labor, you name it, these kind of needs get met. When it's about them, it's not a matter of the possible or the impossible. It's a matter of "is there anything else I can put it this bill for you, Mr. CEO?"

A few charts, graphs, well targeted talking points (we spend more money on our military than the rest of the world combined, we are the only nation on earth to support such large corporate profits with our citizens' health-care, our top-heavy distribution of wealth has grown x percent worse since 1978 and we rank y in the world on this metric, monetizing the insanely amplified derivatives of mortgage backed securities is a transfer of wealth to the financial industry that it never had a right to in the first place since it was phantom money, etc., they're easy, they're true, they're devastating, and don't be put off if I don't say exactly the right ones for you or phrase them just right, I won't be involved anyway I'm just another loser with an internet connection) that have the full force of our reps voicing them, with the support of the netroots and however much progressive media we can muster, put all this together and let's find out what is and isn't possible. Let's MAKE it possible. We'll have their backs, but our reps need to do this or they're not our reps.

The truth is that these things are not possible because they're not attempted, they're not even considered, in fact they're actively avoided.

Why? "Our" reps aren't representing us, they're representing the wealthy and the powerful.

Not good enough, not even close.

Would you rather be raped by a somewhat considerate rapist who claims to care about you, or by someone who doesn't even make the effort to seem to care? Obviously that's a false choice. You don't want to be raped, period, and if they try to rape you, you do what you can to stop it from happening, you bite, scratch, empty your bowels, anything. Oh, but if you do that, the mean rapist will do it to you instead of the nicer one. To hell with that, you're being raped and it must stop.

To borrow your phrase, anyone that can't see that we're being raped, by corporate dems and by repubs, has no business voting or being out of daycare.

Apologies to anyone offended by the rape analogy, maybe not the best, seems applicable to me though. I'll try to think of a less graphic analogy that is still effective.