Arne Duncan wants "very high bar to entry" into charter schools.

[madfloridian]

Maintaining high test scores is easy in schools that don't have to keep low-performing students. Arne Duncan wants only the best in charter schools.

He apparently has not just 4.3 billion dollars, but 10 billion that he can spend using his own discretion. More than ever before in our history.

That sets up an odd situation, really.

One of the best students I taught was sent back to our traditional public school because he did not meet the standards of the School of Choice (I think it was charter, may have been magnet) he was attending. His test scores weren't bad, but he was one of those kids with a sense of humor that set him apart. He was irrepressible but in a nice sort of way. He just could not fit the rigid approach in the that academy. His grades slipped on one test, and they dismissed him back to the public schools.

He was heartbroken and his self-image was harmed, but we helped him over it. Soon some of his friends were joining him because they were not making the top grades either. I loved having them, and it really tarnished my view of schools that put scores above everything else.

That was several years ago, but now the whole public school system is set to be that way. Magnet, Charter, Schools of Choice. Where I taught they did not have to keep students. Their goal was scores, not so much teaching and learning. I don't know if any schools districts require such schools to keep students, or if public schools are the fall-back option.

They are paid for with public tax-payer money, yet it appears they have an out that will make them look better than the public schools which are getting their discards.

Here are two more examples.

From The Boston Globe last month:

Public system must contend with the ones weeded out

JAMES VAZNIS (“Charter schools lag in serving the neediest,’’ Page A1, Aug.12) exposes the unfair advantages that enable charter school “success.’’ He establishes the student imbalance in charters, with significantly fewer English language learners and special education students. But charters enjoy an additional advantage: They can dismiss students with behavioral issues from their population.

n a one-month period last year, student A returned to the Revere Public Schools from a charter school after being “kicked out’’ (the parent’s words) for using pepper spray on the school bus. Student B was “kicked out’’ (the parent’s words) from a different charter school for possessing a knife in school. We had to assume each student into our population. Student C entered our district from yet a third charter school after, in the student’s own words, “I was encouraged to leave because I wasn’t going to be promoted.’’ Soon after, this student was caught in possession of marijuana in one of our schools.

In each case, we had to assume responsibility for educating students weeded out by the charters.

Paul Dakin
Revere
The writer is superintendent of Revere Public Schools and cofacilitator of the Urban Superintendent’s Network.

The last year I taught I had some students with very serious problems in my classroom. They were learning disabled, ADHD, and some emotional problems from family abuse. They were mine to deal with, and there was no other option than that. It was my job, it was my school's job to perform and to teach them as best we could while so much money was taken from our school and given to the other types of schools, especially charter. Our resources were cut severely.

Here is something from Texas at the MySanAntonio education section:

Low-scoring students told to leave

Joe Garcia knew his son was struggling with math but never imagined the problem would lead to his being forced to withdraw from a local charter school. Garcia and another parent allege that Harmony Science Academy, deemed “exemplary” by the state, pushed their children out because of low performance.

“They tell us, ‘You need to come withdraw your son because he didn't pass the TAKS test,” Garcia said, recalling a call from an office receptionist last summer. Superintendent Soner Tarim and Principal Irfan Turk deny the allegations. Turk has since been reassigned.

“We train our principals all the time,” Tarim said. “They have to provide service to all of our students and parents.”

Texas open-enrollment charter schools are tuition-free, public schools afforded some leeway not given to traditional public schools. But no public school can drop from their rolls students who fail the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills, Texas Education Agency spokeswoman Suzanne Marchman said.

I gather that TEA is the teachers' group in Texas, and it appears they are looking into the matter.

Both parents said Turk would not meet with them initially to discuss the issue and that they withdrew their students at the time because they didn't know what else to do.

Garcia called TEA, prompting state officials to look into the matter. Tarim assured the agency he would investigate and call all students who had failed TAKS and were no longer enrolled at the school to invite them back, TEA's Marchman said.

I found more about charter schools and whether they must keep students.

Here's a description of charter schools from the blog Seattle Education 2010:
**
What Is A Charter School?
The basic difference between a traditional public school and a charter school is that with a charter school there is complete control of the school by a private enterprise within a public school district. Although taxpayer-funded, charters operate without the same degree of public and district oversight of a standard public school. Most charter schools do not hire union teachers which means that they can demand the teacher work longer hours including weekends at the school site and pay less than union wages. Charter schools take the school district's allotment of money provided for each student within the public schools system and use it to develop their programs. In many systems, they receive that allotment without having to pay for other costs such as transportation for students to and from the school. Some states, such as Minnesota, actually allocate more than what is granted to public school students.

A charter school can expel any student that it doesn't believe fits within its standards or meets its level of expectation in terms of test scores. If the student is dropped off the rolls of the charter school, the money that was allotted for that student may or may not be returned to the district at the beginning of the next year. That is dependent upon the contract that is established by each district.
http://seattle-ed.blogspot.com/

So that last sentence reads that some districts may require that charter schools keep the students. I don't know of any in our area that do that. They should also specify that if the student is returned, the money is also returned.

I have been reading the transcript from CBS of Arne Duncan's interview yesterday with Bob Scheiffer. Several statements stuck in my mind.

CBS Transcript

DUNCAN: I’ve said repeatedly I’m not a fan of charter schools. I’m a fan of good charter schools. And what does it take to have a good charter school? A couple things have to happen. In too many places, this hasn’t been the norm around the country. But a couple conditions have to be in place.

DUNCAN: First of all, this is not let a thousand flowers bloom. There should be a very high bar to entry. The chance to educate children, I think, is a sacred obligation, and we should be picking the best of the best to open charter schools. Once you decide who those are through a very competitive, rigorous process, charter school operators need two things. They need real autonomy. These are innovators, they need to be freed from bureaucracy. By definition, they have a different educational vision. You have to give them the space to let them move and run.

But you have to couple that autonomy with real accountability. And you have to hold them accountable for results. And we have five- year performance contracts. I ran the Chicago public schools. I was lucky to start many successful charter schools, but I closed three for academic failure. And so you have to couple that autonomy with real accountability.

Finally more and more, we need to seek charter schools and traditional public schools and these are all public schools, these are all our children, these are all our tax dollars, they need to share best practices.

He agrees to close underperforming public schools, turn them into charter schools, then close the charter schools that underperform. And then? What next? Just keep closing schools?

This part floored me. He has 10 billion in "discretionary funds." Here, silly me, I thought it was only 4.35 billion.

DUNCAN: Right. We have unprecedented discretionary resources. Again, states can compete for them. And you talked about the $4.35 billion race to the top. We actually have, collectively, more than $10 billion in discretionary resources.

Unprecedented resources going to form schools that have not been proven to be any better than traditional public schools.

BUT this next statement takes the cake. If we have such great teachers, great classrooms, great schools, great districts....why the desire to change it all now and not even in incremental steps??

We’ve never had so much money to invest. And I talk so much about the challenges. But I’ll tell you why I’m so hopeful and so optimistic. We’ve never had more great teachers, more great classrooms, more great schools, more great school districts in the history of our nation. There’s been this flourishing of innovation and entrepreneurial educators.

What a tangled web we are weaving now in education.

Why not invest the 10 billion with traditional public schools? Why not be supportive of the teachers' unions? Why set up confrontations with unions and teachers in two of the largest states..CA and NY.

AND...why finally put in place the policies of Newt Gingich from long ago?

Gingrich in his own words.

For the last twenty years, we have tried to improve education while accepting the fundamental principles of a failed system, guarded by the education bureaucrats and teachers unions.

..."Replace multiculturalism with patriotic education.

...."We should apply the free enterprise system to our education system by introducing competition among schools, administrators, and teachers. Our educators should be paid based on their performance and held accountable based on clear standards with real consequences."

..."Support charters; insist on change for failing schools.

...."Private scholarships for students at hopeless schools. (vouchers)

Newt Gingrich has waited years, yet now he is able to see his policies come to fruition. The sad thing is that it is being done under a Democratic administration.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

1. K&R

[MadHound]

2. But wait, I thought that charter schools were just like public schools

Except for the students they admit, the number of staff and faculty they have to hire, etc. etc.

Hopefully some of the Duncan fanboys around here will read this and wake up.

[madfloridian]

4. Well, I used his own words.

So I guess I won't get lectured for my source. :-)

[Dinger]

34. Article On Duncan:

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/23_03/arne233.shtml

[madfloridian]

39. Wow, there is a lot packed into that article.

Just getting started.

:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

51. the teachers' salaries, credentials, & ability to participate in collective bargaining...

the percent of disabled they admit...

the likelihood they're run for profit...

the transparency of financial information...

the likelihood of secret real estate or contracting deals...

the presence of religious education...

"charter schools = public schools" = nonsense.

[alstephenson]

98. I have a question.

What percentage of charter schools in the US are run by for-profit corporations, vs. percentage operated by not-for profits? Thanks.

[Gabi Hayes]

3. as usual, big up.....you should replace that clown Duncan

what a sad joke on us, and the poor kids that continue to suffer at the hands of the worst series of educational 'reforms' since the mid 1800s

[alstephenson]

99. There are many parents of charter school students who would disagree.

That's a very broad brush stroke you're painting with.

[Gabi Hayes]

108. the charter schools that are 'succeeding' are a very small minority, for starters.

obviously some charter schools have done good things for their students, but the entire thrust of NCLB and charter schools have their roots in christian reconstructionism

do a little research (see what the goals of Xtian recon are, who's behind it, and what they envision for your childrens' future), and you'll see that a broad brush occasionally does paint accurately

[omega minimo]

5. Yup. It's a racket.

[madfloridian]

8. Money money...who gets the 10 billion he has in his hand?

I guess not the schools with average students. :shrug:

[msongs]

6. Obama's pet wants to skim students - just like racist private schools do. nice nt

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ipaint]

7. There seems to be no stopping the corporate take over of

everything having to do with community and democracy.

Is this what the democrat party stands for?

[Luminous Animal]

48. That would be...

Democratic. Democrat Party is a Republican Party slur.

[ipaint]

55. Replace with Democrats and knock off party. n/t.

[eleny]

9. Jonathan Kozol was on C-Span yesterday and spoke of them with dripping contempt

I'm not an educator. But as a taxpayer I share his view given what you've just pointed out about Duncan.

[dsc]

10. I am as unenamoured of charter schools as you are but you are seriously misquoting Duncan here

It is clear from the text you posted he means a high bar for entry of the schools into the education market place not the students into the schools. While he might well let them do what other charters have been doing, he didn't say he would outright. To be clear, Obama's education policy along with his McClurkin problem are why I was so opposed to him in the primaries but a misquote is a misquote.

[madfloridian]

11. No no no...I am quoting Duncan EXACTLY...here are the words again.

"DUNCAN: First of all, this is not let a thousand flowers bloom. There should be a very high bar to entry. The chance to educate children, I think, is a sacred obligation, and we should be picking the best of the best to open charter schools. Once you decide who those are through a very competitive, rigorous process, charter school operators need two things. They need real autonomy. These are innovators, they need to be freed from bureaucracy. By definition, they have a different educational vision. You have to give them the space to let them move and run."

[LeftyMom]

16. dsc is right, you're misreading that.

It's not even something one could misinterpret easily.

[madfloridian]

20. Those are his words. Deny them if you feel you must.

There is no other way to take them.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[George II]

44. Those are his words, yes, but YOUR way of taking them is NOT what those words mean.

[Hannah Bell]

64. i believe in this case he's talking about the school management, not the kids.

not that there isn't plenty of selective entry going on. kids with disabilities in particular.

& as you've already pointed out, selective dismissal of problem students.

[madfloridian]

87. None of it matters now.

[Hannah Bell]

92. why?

[dsc]

19. The chance to educate is a scared obligation

clearly he is talking about principals and others who run schools, not those who are students in the schools. Again, I agree with you on the overall issue, but you are decidedly misquoting Duncan.

[madfloridian]

21. The use of the word "entry" tells us what he means.

He may ALSO be talking about those who form the schools with our money, and those teachers who are hired.

But he is speaking of entry.

[dsc]

25. entry into the education market

not entry into individual schools.

[madfloridian]

27. That is your interpretation.

He implied it was not about the average kids with the words about the flowers.

[dsc]

28. the flowers refer to the schools not the students

I guess we will have to agree to disagree but I really don't see anyway that those words can apply to the kids and not to the schools.

[George II]

46. .

[alstephenson]

100. I agree with dsc.

Madfloridian can not be objective when it comes to charter school education.

[wickerwoman]

109. It's a quote from Mao Zedong

before the Cultural Revolution. He said "let a hundred flowers blossom" (i.e. let many ideas, opinions and perspectives be heard) when he was inviting the intelligensia to criticize him. Of course then he just took all their names down and had them killed or sent to gulags. :(

So I think the reference here means a thousand approaches to education or pedagogical philosophies.

[amandabeech]

124. I almost always support you, madfloridian, but I think that dsc is right on

interpretation here. I think that Duncan is talking about the entry of particular charter schools or educational corporations into the education marketplace.

I can believe, however, that he would be perfectly okay with those same schools or educational corporations skimming the cream and leaving the regular public school with the kids who need the most help, although I don't think that he said it here.

[George II]

45. Ok, then what is your interpretation of what he meant by "entry"? You haven't articulated that here.

[madfloridian]

12. Dupe delete

[ipaint]

14. I didn't read it that way.

It's clear he is speaking of the charter schools being high quality.

It's a hell of alot easier to be considered high quality if you can cherry pick students.

[madfloridian]

24. Yes, cherry picking does help.

I was stunned to learn he had 10 billion for use at his own discretion.

[Barack_America]

103. I agree. The bar refers to the charter schools, rather than the students. nt

[zazen]

13. broken record here, but remember the exceptions

My daughter's public charter high school is one of the best schools (not just charter) in the country and they have a very progressive curriculum. They read Howard Zinn, for example, in AP US History and are engaged in a range of outreach activities, and the school population is very internationally diverse (though providing transportation is a requirement that excludes families, to be sure.)

Also, I don't think the ARRA US Dept of Ed investment in longitudinal data systems for states is a bad one. It could really help policymakers and teachers make much better decisions and eliminate a lot of redundancies.

But I don't have any experience with these corporate charters--just the hippie ones. Every metro area should have at least one charter like we've had for elem, middle, and high school. We are very blessed.

As for skimming, my daughter would have graduated early or be taking half her classes at the nearby university had she had to stay in the local county schools. I'm not sure how much she'd benefit the other students, since she'd be in all AP or at online college courses. All a big high school would have done would have decreased her motivation and achievement while providing nothing for the other students.

Charters are not uniformly bad.

[madfloridian]

15. I never said they were all bad. It is my money paying for them.

Therefore I have a right and an obligation to point out that we are doing what Newt Gingrich tried to do years ago.

[George II]

56. But in other discussions you claim that it is CORPORATE money that is paying for them!

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

[madfloridian]

59. They are using my money to turn it over to corporate control. Why do you do this, George?

It is constant. Thread to thread.

[George II]

61. Let me turn that question around....when it comes to the Obama Adiministration and Arne Duncan...

"Why do you do this Mad?"

So, they're using tax money to get corporate money? Please explain that with more than a one-liner....thanks!

[madfloridian]

62. My tax money that used to go to public schools is now going to charter schools.

And they are going to be managed by private groups and companies, often religious groups.

As the process continues, the corporations will take more stake in the efforts...they are even doing that in public schools now.

Once they do that they control the curriculum with my tax money.

You can yell and rant and scream at me....but this is leading to dismantling the traditional public school system and privatizing it.

Go ahead, do what you need to do.

[George II]

66. First, a very small minority of charter schools are "managed" by private groups and "companies"...

....shouldn't you mention that those private groups are generally the parents of the students in the schools and the companies are in the education business? And VERY few charter schools, if any, are managed by religious groups.

And shouldn't you remind us that Yale University, Harvard University, Princeton University, MIT, etc. are managed by "private groups"? Each of those schools also get grants from companies, foundations (like the Gates Foundation and others) and the government?

I am not screaming at you, I'm trying to bring objectivity to these continued discussions against the Obama administration in the form of criticism of charter schools, which have been existence long before Obama became president and Arne Duncan became Secretary of Education.

Finally, why don't you give us all a recap of the relative success of the students in charter schools vs. traditional public schools - after all, as a teacher isn't it your ultimate goal to provide the best education possible to all students?

[madfloridian]

71. You are giving an on the surface accounting. You rely heavily on charter school sources

at least you did in the last thread.

I am going to continue to criticize the Obama administration and Duncan about dismantling our public school system.

Why aren't you concerned that Newt Gingrich is getting his dreams coming true?

You know as well as I do that corporations like Walmart donate hundreds of millions. Where does it go? To behind the scene companies to operate the schools? I don't know where it goes, do you.

Walmart gave 50 million, where did it go?

[George II]

77. You are mixing me up with someone else......

....I have never read or quoted from "charter school sources". I rely on objective facts, not an opinion on one side or the other. Newt Gingrich has nothing to do with it. After all, using your logic why not say that the AFT is getting their dream to come true - they founded and operate charter schools! Are you anti-union?

And I'm not surprised that you intend to continue to criticize the Obama administration - you've been doing it for months with nary a single journal entry or post praising his administration for anything.

[madfloridian]

80. I am anti-AFT, but I was union in every way. All unions are not the same.

In my state they were very different.

You have accused me of everything else, you might as well accuse me of being anti-union.

Do you have a grudge against me, George? Something I did or said?

[George II]

84. Why are you anti-AFT? The AFT was a pioneer in organizing teachers and are probably...

...the largest teachers' union in the world (the US, anyway) They have been highly influential in advancing the cause of teachers and education in the US for almost a century.

I have "accused" you of just one thing - being blatantly anti-Obama/Democrats. If you call that an accusation, so be it.

I could turn each of your questions around to address your issues with Obama/Duncan/Democrats/etc.....but I won't.

[Luminous Animal]

107. The NEA is older and nearlyt 4 times larger.

I don't know why you even bother.

[George II]

121. I didn't say they were the oldest, did I? And....

...the NEA represents more than teachers, they represent secretaries and all educational personnel. The AFT has been instrumental in advancing the cause of TEACHERS for a century. That is why I "bother".

[alstephenson]

102. Oh, by the way.

All charter schools are not the same. They differ widely from state to state. But I'm sure you know that...

[alstephenson]

101. It's not Walmart.

It's the Walton Family Foundation...

[Hannah Bell]

93. 12 to over 20%, depending on the source. neither % is "a very small minority".

[George II]

122. Tell that to McGovern and Mondale and Goldwater...they got way more than 20% of the vote...

...in their presidential elections, and they were considered losers in "landslides"!

[ipaint]

18. Requiring transportation excludes poor families.

How fortunate for your charter school.

[Dinger]

17. K & R So I Can Read This Later

Mr. Dinger having some tests done tomorrow. Lots on my mind now.

[madfloridian]

22. Will be thinking of you. Best to both of you.

:hug:

[Dinger]

23. Thanks

:hug:

[madfloridian]

29. Newt Gingrich is getting his long time dream of charter schools....

and most of the comments here are spent trying to make me look bad.....instead of realizing we are doing what the Republicans have wanted for many years.

Go for it, because this is my tax money paying for them. I will speak out.

Newt is traveling with Arne, and getting his reputation built back up again by our party.

[George II]

57. What does Newt Gingrich have to do with this? Do you think dragging his name into this...

...is going to win over DEMOCRATS on this issue? Not likely that true Democrats will do so.

[Hannah Bell]

65. because gingrich is a long-standing advocate, as she said.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=%22newt+gingrich%22+charter+schools

& he is currently out promoting obama's charter school reforms.

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/08/al_sharpton_newt_gingrich_push.html

[George II]

70. OK, why is Newt Gingrich singled out? For the dramatic effect?

There are many advocates for charter schools, most less controversial and polarizing than Newt Gingrich. But it makes a dramatic effect by choosing Newt as the primary reference.

Do you people realize that the AFT operates two charter schools in NYC and are planning many more? Why aren't they mentioned as advocates of charter schools?

[madfloridian]

75. Because I chose to post other items. You need to calm down.

You need not to pursue everything I say like that.

[George II]

79. Yes, you chose to post oher items...

...those that specifically will appear negative toward charter schools (i.e., Newt Gingrich) and the Obama Administration. The AFT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS, has embraced charter schools and has founded and operates several charter schools. Why doesn't that appear in your repertoire of charter school facts?

[madfloridian]

82. With my tax money, and I disapprove. Why are you doing this?

Why do you jump on every thing I post no matter what?

[George II]

86. You know that is not true..

[madfloridian]

74. Gingrich is touring with Arne to push charter schools.

It was his idea to begin with. He is getting his dream.

[George II]

81. As is Al Sharpton. Maybe they're achieving the dream of.....

...Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.? Their collective goal is better education for the students of America "by any means necessary".

Tell me, do you understand the concept, makeup, and actual "charter" of charter schools?

[madfloridian]

83. Ah, I get it now.

You are an advocate for charter schools. You must be very glad that Newt is getting his dream after all these years. I think his website is http://newt.org/. He seems so happy and content.

[George II]

85. I am an advocate for better education for America's children, not necessarily..

..charter schools themselves. In some ways I think charter schools are troublesome and the statutes concerning charter schools could be better. But overall, if they provide a better education for some of our students than the schools they previously attended, then that's good.

[Luminous Animal]

91. Sharpton has 500,000 reasons to team up with the privatization movement.

500,000 dollar reasons, that is.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/04/01/2009-04-01_rev_al_sharptons_500g_link_to_education_.html

By the way, it was Malcom X who forwarded the notion of "by any means necessary."


And, yes, I do understand the makeup and actual charter of charter schools.
We are diverting taxpayers funds to the private sector to produce a 37% failure rate. They are a devise conceived by those who believe that "promote the general welfare" is subservient to defense, by those who desire to eliminate the role of government to be an equalizing force because they reject a government for and by the people and rather, propose to drown it in a bathtub. Charter schools are the gateway for private, profit or non-profit, corporations to rob the public treasury with little accountability. Once the private sector gets their teeth into public education, they will bleed the taxpayers dry and pay off our congresscritters with any massive call for public control.

It is the Friedmanites dream promoted by Gingrich and Norquist and any Democrat who would take 20 minutes to research their vision, the self-same vision that has led to our current economic disaster of 10,000 bankruptcies a day, the "health" insurance corps driven murder by spreadsheet, and the destruction of our social service system.

Arne's got 10 billion of tax-payers money to put towards a system that fails more students that helps. The charter system...


www.denverpost.com/familynews/ci_12600754

Charter school pupils lag, study says
By Connie Llanos
Los Angeles Daily News
Posted: 06/17/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT



LOS ANGELES — Charter school students are not performing as well as their peers at traditional public schools, according to a landmark report released Monday that also pointed to a need for more accountability at the increasingly popular alternative campuses.

The study by Stanford University's Center for Research on Education Outcomes looked at more than 70 percent of the nation's charter school students, providing one of the first national snapshots of their academic performance.

Margaret Raymond, the report's author, said the study examined individual student data from schools in 16 states, including California, and found large variations in charter school performance.

The study found 17 percent of charter students outperformed traditional schools; 37 percent underperformed traditional schools and 46 percent showed no significant difference.

We are throwing 10 billion dollars towards a system that shows a 37% failure rate against the status quo.

Defend that.

[Hannah Bell]

95. no, sharpton's being paid.

"As I continued reading, questions immediately arose as to the status of the non-profit group, Education Reform Now, which served as the pass through or ‘front group’ for the $500,000 to Sharpton and his organization. Who or what is ‘Education Reform Now’ and just what do they stand for and why the subterfuge in paying off Sharpton?

...Curious, I wanted to know more; like who actually runs Education Reform Now? It didn’t take much digging to find the answer: it was and still is as of this writing, Joe Williams, the former New York Daily News reporter who also directs another educational think tank or front group, Democrats for Education Reform, a leading advocacy group for expanding charter schools throughout New York. Now the whole complex web was starting to make sense and the story eventually came full circle when it was revealed that Joe Williams is also listed as the president and the treasurer of the same Education Equality Project (EEP) launched by Rev. Al Sharpton and Joel Klein in 2008, for which Sharpton’s National Action Network was handsomely paid.

I decided to look up Democrats for Education Reform on the internet to see what exactly they do. The group says it works to foster charter schools throughout New York and elsewhere...

Although Joe Williams, head of the group, prefers to remain silent on the matter of the $500,000 payoff to Sharpton, current New York City Schools Chancellor, Joel Klein not only acknowledges the payment but has been busy using his connections and the high-profile Sharpton partnership to raise more than $1.6 million dollars for EEP; no doubt the $500,000 investment in Sharpton’s glitzy media image, political influence and rhetorical support is paying off for the burgeoning New York city think tank and their ongoing efforts in New York to privatize education through charter contract schools, much in the same vein as we see in Chicago, Washington D.C., and New Orleans.

http://www.counterpunch.org/weil08252009.html

[frazzled]

30. Maybe you need to review some of your critical thinking tools

Duncan is not talking about a high bar for entry for students. He's saying there should be a high bar for allowing new charter schools into the public system. Only the best of the best of charter schools should be chosen, according to a rigorous process.

Ferchrissakes, read it again. You are dead wrong here. The quote is completely unambiguous (to those who read). Note the phrase " we should be picking the best of the best to open charter schools." He is not saying we should be picking the best of the best to attend charter schools. To OPEN charter schools.

Read also: "charter school operators need two things ..." Not charter school students. OPERATORS.

A good lesson to teach your students is to not come to their reading with any preconceived notions about the content. Read carefully for meaning, paying attention to the syntax and structure of the sentences until you understand the author's intentions and what he or she is trying to convey.

[madfloridian]

31. Part of it refers to operators, yes. But not the high bar part.

[frazzled]

32. No, the whole passage is in reference to the operators of charter schools

I'm sorry, but if you keep insisting on your own interpretation, there's no point to arguing it. There is no argument. He is talking about a high bar for entry of these charter schools, of which he claims to be no great fan, into the system. Only the most innovative, etc.

He goes on to explain his "high bar" by saying that "Where they’re not working, they’re second-tier or third-tier, let’s be honest about that and let’s close them down."

[paulsby]

33. jeez

seriously. FAIL

this is why standardized tests SHOULD have reading comprehension sections.

i can't believe you can't see what is right in front of your eyes.

we can see it. it's not rocket science. it's clear.

fwiw, i have no problem with SOME charter schools being explicitly for exceptional kids (like kids in the 90%+ percentile on standardized tests). SOME.

but that's not what's being addressed here. read it again. for meaning.

[ipaint]

35. It's obvious that he referring to the bar set for people opening and teaching in charter schools

That measurement of quality doesn't go away when the school opens and it is directly tied to student performance.
Being able to dump the poor performing kids back into traditional public schools will be one of the ways these charter schools meet that quality requirement.

The traditional public schools will then be left with less money, charter schools will be siphoning it from the community, and the charter school rejects, students that bring down the charter schools quality rating.

People here think that's just fine???

[rucky]

36. So much for the slogan "No Child Left Behind"

this leaves children in the dust.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

42. "There should be a very high bar to entry"

Another time I posted about charter schools, you and almost the same others descended on the thread.

It is risky to post about charter schools here, but it is my money being used and taken away from traditional public schools.

[rucky]

47. I caught that...

but there's plenty more material in there to be concerned about - the main point being the syphoning of money and talent for corporate-run education.

[ipaint]

38. And for all the critical thinkers here what is the difference

between cherrypicking kids before the school is open or after the school is open?

[GreenPartyVoter]

40. So charter schools are basically prep schools?

[rucky]

49. Charter schools are whatever keeps themselves profitable.

[roody]

41. Fuck Arne.

[George II]

43. You don't leave it alone do you?

[ipaint]

50. Duncan and Chicago

"Arne Duncan has overseen the beginning destruction of neighborhood schools with neighborhood students. Schools are no longer community pillars because many students no longer live in the area. When CPS closes schools and reopens them as Renaissance 2010 charter or contract schools, there is no guarantee or requirement that students who attended the old schools will go to the new ones—and many don't. For example, not all new schools are the same grade level as the old schools. There are complicated applications and deadlines, limits on enrollment, requirements of families, and informal selection processes that may disadvantage some students.

Families with multiple children who used to attend one school have had to scramble as schools close and their children are split up. Young children who walked to their neighborhood school have had to leave their community and cross heavily trafficked streets. Schools that are "turned around" terminate all adults in the building, including security, custodial, clerical, paraprofessional, and kitchen staff (as if they contributed to students' poor performance), causing severe dislocation and job loss in the community. Tenured teachers who are released are reassigned for 10 months as negotiated in the union contract. During this time, they receive their salary and benefits, sub some days of the week, and look for a position on other days. At the end of the 10 months if they have not found a position, they can be "honorably terminated." As one parent of a child in a closing school said, "when you close a school, you kill the heart of the community.

...To justify Renaissance 2010, Duncan has been a strong proponent of school choice—including military schools. He was quoted in the Nov. 2, 2007, issue of USA Today saying: "These are positive learning environments. I love the sense of leadership. I love the sense of discipline."

According to the CPS website, Chicago has "the largest JROTC program in the country in number of cadets and total programs." CPS has five military high schools, more than any city in the nation, and 21 "middle school cadet corps" programs. The military high schools teach military history and have military-style discipline. Students wear military uniforms, do military drills, and participate in summer boot camps. The hierarchical authority structure mirrors the Army, Navy, and Marines, with new students ("cadets") under the command of senior students who work their way up and require obedience from those in "lower ranks." Like in the military itself, questioning, let alone challenging, authority is not looked upon kindly. In a city where barely 50 percent of entering high school students graduate (Swanson, 2008), and in a country involved in two wars, the option of military service tempts many, especially in a period of economic crisis. All but one of the military high schools are in African American communities, and all the middle school cadet programs are in overwhelmingly black or Latina/o schools. The rapid increase in these programs has occurred largely under Duncan's watch, and CPS plans additional ones in the future."

http://rethinkingschools.org/archive/23_03/arne233.shtml


Duncan is a real piece of work. What a fucking mess this is going to be to clean up.

[madfloridian]

54. It's going to be a tangled mess before it's over. It's going to hurt us badly.

It really is a shame that people would rather nitpick one phrase than notice that Gingrich and his cronies are in solid with Arne.

I stand by every word I posted, and I expect the same people to try to discredit me.

But that is MY money they are using to make the mess.

[madrchsod]

52. he is co-opting the revolution...

he perverted bill ayers ideas. but never fear there will always be those who rage against the machine

[George II]

53. This is utterly RIDICULOUS!!!

From your post: "One of the best students I taught was sent back to our traditional public school because he did not meet the standards of the School of Choice (I think it was charter, may have been magnet)"

There is a DRASTIC DISTINCTION between charter schools and magnet schools - completely different objectives, completely different requirements, completely different curriculums.

That you spout about some child being sent back to public school without even knowing WHAT TYPE of school that student was sent back from and then using that as a basis for blasting charter schools, Duncan, and the Obama administration is atrocious and a disservice to a sensible discussion about the Department of Education.

If it was a magnet school, just WHY do you introduce that into this discussion? A student who doesn't make it in a magnet school is entirely different than a student who may (not necessarily, by you own admission) have been sent to traditional public school from a charter schoo.

Why don't you get your facts clear in your head before you draw conclusions?

[madfloridian]

60. You need to stop shouting at me. That school has been different things.

It was several years ago as I said. It is charter now, I don't think it had become that back then.

Anything else?

[George II]

63. So what you're saying is that a student of yours was sent to traditional public school....

....from a magnet school. A magnet school has absolutely nothing in common with a charter school. A magnet school is one with specialized curricula, generally for gifted children (I attended one before the term "magnet school" was created - probably the highest rated public high school in North America). So, if a student doesn't make it in that magnet school, there is a specific reason.

So now what you're trying to tell everyone is that charter schools are bad because a student of yours didn't succeed in a magnet school. Can you explain the connection please?

[madfloridian]

73. Why are you doing this?

I am going to continue to post about the dismantling of charter schools.

You can all descend on me at once, I just don't care.

Not that many yet are calling it what it is. Maybe more should speak out.

[alstephenson]

104. Um, yeah.

As public schools, charter schools are open registration (i.e., anyone can go). Once at full enrollment, children are taken in on a wait list basis. Race, financial status, "smart", "dumb", none of these things is considered. You keep inferring that charter schools skim the cream from the crop - nothing could be less true. Never mind, nothing will change your mind. You are 100% right and anyone that disagrees with you is 100% wrong. I wish life were that easy.

[omega minimo]

69. So you're saying Obama's plan and Arnie's road show IS about forcing CHARTER schools on the public

"then using that as a basis for blasting charter schools, Duncan, and the Obama administration...."

Otherwise, you are completely out of line and your attack on the OP is totally fucked up.

[George II]

72. You missed the point of that post......

....and I'll leave it at that rather than lower the discussion to the offensive tone of your response. Just read it again, thanks!

[omega minimo]

89. Not at all. You can't have it both ways. Too bad.

So sad. YOU ARE ACTING LIKE THAT AND TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE'S OFFENSIVE TONE??????????????? :wtf: :freak: :wtf: :freak:

[madfloridian]

76. Thanks. Thread after thread after thread.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

58. If the same ones at DU discredit me....there will be others along to post

about the harm being done to public education.

[salin]

67. source of confusion may be the Title I distinction of "School of Choice"

Under NCLB, if a school does not meet AYP over a period of years there are a number of consequences. After the second or third year (?) the school is required to send all parents a letter that lets the parent know that the school is "failing" and that the parent has the option of moving the child to a more successful school within the district (one meeting AYP, or at least not in the multiple years failing to meet AYP). I am not sure if it is the district (my earlier understanding) or the state that establishes the list of "Schools of Choice" (ie the schools with space that are meeting AYP). The designated "school of choice" is often another traditional public school, but may be a district magnet school. Initially (in our state the district established the SOC- and almost never included charter schools in the list), the SOC was generally not a charter school. However this could have changed in the past several years.

All that said, the wisdom of NCLB - and the ridiculous expectation of 100% pass rates at all grade levels for all students by 2014 (or is it 2012) - is all but impossible to meet when the final dates roll around. The issue of SOC, will be very serious, when no public (traditional or charter) schools qualify. I really thought that the dem. controlled congress (even before Obama and Duncan were in place) would begin to address the critical and inherent problems with this law.

I may be more sympathetic to some (not all) charter schools, than many on this board, but that is for another discussion (I don't think charters are the answer in many situations, and I disdain those run by distant management companies - esp any that is a for profit venture). That said - I think that NCLB, and many state laws that echo or try to one-up NCLB, happening with little investment in trying to help schools meet such requirements is a train wreck that is going to blow in the next 4-5 years. Sooner in my state (where insane new graduation laws, with NO information to schools and a state doe that is giving no info on how state-wide these new requirements are, or not, being met (though the class with the new requirements is starting their 10th grade year) - with no changes, there may be a significant number (tens of thousands) of kids who pass classes, but don't meet requirements to graduate - seriously changing their future opportunities. Insane and tragic.

[madfloridian]

78. I taught in a Title I school.

I am not confused.

They can not meet the goals of NCLB. There is no way.

They are closing schools in Florida now and turning them into charter schools which was the goal in the first place.

They started taking serious money from public schools, giving it to charters and magnets that do not have to keep students who don't produce to high standards.

They took so much money from my school that our textbooks were in tatters, and I had to buy all the supplies.

Meanwhile a school of choice had two textbooks for each child, one for school and one for home.

We had to buy our own cleaning supplies for our rooms before I retired.

Then the powers that be turn around and say public schools are failing.

[madfloridian]

68. More about students expelled from charters, or not accepted because of disabilities.

A traditional public school can expel a student, but there still has to be an education provided. This is an interesting article about the topic. A traditional public school gets to consider none of these issues....the student is theirs to keep and to teach.

It is easy to look good when you get to pick your students.

http://columbia.news21.com/?p=679

"Like many District of Columbia parents, Renell and Franklin F. were pleased to have the option of enrolling their 16-year-old son Jaleel in one of the city’s many charter high schools instead of one of the rougher public high schools in their neighborhood in Anacostia. For nearly two years, Jaleel attended the Capitol Hill campus of the Cesar Chavez Public Charter School, where he earned As and Bs. (The family has declined to use their last name to protect their privacy).

Then, last February, Jaleel was suddenly expelled by the school. School officials claimed he threatened to kill a teacher. His parents said that Jaleel had been merely muttering to himself in the hallway, not making sincere threats.

More importantly, his parents said he had a mood disorder, and that school officials were well aware of it. When the family met with an education attorney after Jaleel’s expulsion, they were told that the school should have evaluated Jaleel for a special education plan, because counselors and teachers had let principals know of Jaleel’s difficulties many times. Instead, Renell and Franklin, who are divorced, had to go to court to get their son an evaluation. As the legal process escalated, Jaleel, who enjoyed academics and the graphics club at Chavez, remained out of school.

"Most charter schools do not enroll students with a heavy load of disabilities. If such students apply, charter school officials “often” refer them elsewhere, found an ongoing study mandated by the 2006 class action cases Blackman v. District of Columbia and Jones v. District of Columbia, commonly referred together as Blackman/Jones. “Many charters cannot cope with the large numbers of students with disabilities,” the report says.

Large public high schools, on the other hand, must accept all students, except when the public system determines students needs are better met at private schools, in which case it refers them there and pays the tuition. District records show that the rates of students in special education at several of the district’s largest public high schools such as Anacostia, Ballou and Cardozo have increased in recent years, though it is unclear whether this is the result of students transferring from charter schools."

For their part, charter school officials complain that some parents do not disclose their students’ special education needs during the admissions process, presumably in order to increase the odds of their children being accepted to the charter schools, and that there are schools that are reluctant to admit special education students. “Some schools were frank to concede that they would not admit students who required a large number of hours of specialized service (16+) or had specific diagnoses they were not equipped to serve (e.g. mental retardation),” according to the Blackman/Jones report."

[madfloridian]

90. Dear George. About that Obama hate you say I have.

Getting tired of it. Hubby and I donated hundreds to his campaign. We got free signs, paid for yard signs as well, ordered nice magnetic bumper stickers and shared them with the ones brave enough to have an Obama sticker on their car.

We replenished the yard signs when they were stolen, we worked hard.

So stop with the hating Obama stuff.

I am writing of a specific policy of his which will harm my love of over 30 years...public education.

What you do is tiring, and it cuts down on discourse that could be meaningful. You are allowed to do it, yet I must be courteous.

So do what you have to do.

[JCMach1]

94. Separate and unequal... Remember that?

[placton]

96. Charters = robbing public education

the only real goals of charters are to break teachers' unions and defund public schools. They dont work - so of course Mr. Obama and his Sec of Ed just wuuuuuuuuv them. Primary challenge in '12.

[madfloridian]

105. From 2003...doing the same thing over and over and thinking it will work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=416303&mesg_id=416303

And when it doesn't work we try it again and again.

And we keep throwing taxpayer money at it until it works...then it doesn't work.

[Fire1]

106. That 'bar' better come with some very high teacher salaries.

[BrklynLiberal]

110. For some reason I feel reluctant to trust Duncan any further than I could throw him.

It is a hell of a lot easier to be successful when you select only the best students...

I have read about hospitals that do that with surgical patients. They only operate on those that have the best chances of successful recovery..so guess what..their surgical success rate is incredible.

What a crock of crapola!!!

[DailyGrind51]

111. First, Arne, go back to grad school and become a certified administrator,

like you expected from every one of your school principals in the Chicago Public School system!

[waiting for hope]

112. Here madfloridan - in case anyone here

has seem to conveniently forgotten what public education is to our society:

America's noble experiment--universal education for all citizens--is a cornerstone of our democracy.

The idea of a system of universal education is as old as our republic. No lesser lights than Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Noah Webster promoted a system of universal education that would extend through adolescence.

Jefferson believed that such an approach to education was essential to the preservation of the republic. He advocated a three-tiered approach--elementary school, high school, colleges--with each tier teaching those things which would help people learn to think for themselves and appropriate the benefits of freedom. This system should be publicly funded and accountable.

Despite Jefferson's efforts to establish this universal system of public education that was consistent throughout the states, the proposal was implemented only piecemeal. For the first 50 years of the republic, education remained largely available only to those who could pay for it.

The next big push came from Horace Mann , who in 1837 began a life-long crusade for public schools. He envisioned the public schools as a way to equalize opportunity for all citizens.

Mann advocated for "common" schools where children of different social classes learned together. The children of immigrants and the children of merchants would study together, learning not only reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic, but civics and social skills. By necessity, the parents of immigrants and of merchants would rub shoulders, opening the door for a more peaceful society.

It would take 81 years before the vision of Jefferson and Mann would be enacted at the federal and state levels. But by 1918 every state had laws making elementary education, taking place in "common" schools, funded and administered by the government.

In 1904, Margaret Haley, speaking to the general meeting of the National Education Association, contrasted two ideals of public education: the industrial, which upheld the supremacy of commercialism versus the democratic, which valued people over the mechanics of the economy.

She promoted a vision of public education where subjects taught would result in "the training of citizens to think and to express thought in free and intelligent action."

~Snip~

Public Education a Cornerstone of American Democracy

Take it away, diminish it and we all lose.

[madfloridian]

113. Thanks, but I will post very carefully about charter schools from now on.

I sort of got the message from above what priorities are here.

:shrug:

Yes, it is a proud tradition, but most simply don't care anymore. The propaganda done for years has worked.

Thanks for the link. Glad some remember and care.

[waiting for hope]

114. Remember a few years ago when

everyone was screaming bloody murder against the so-called "vouchers program"? Charter Schools are the equivalent of vouchers but because it's "our team" doing it, it's accepted. Keep posting what you find, perhaps after a bit, some more will see the light. I also wonder about those screaming the loudest, do they have children in the school system now? My oldest is in third grade and my youngest will start kindergarten next year - my interest lies in what I know to be the best for my children. What are the interests for those with either no children or no school age children? Don't get discouraged .. :)

[madfloridian]

115. I will post, but I must be careful about it now.

I know what you are saying. It is not discouragement keeping me down. It is other stuff.

[erinlough]

116. It took me a while to read the whole thread but

here is how it works in my state. A group of people decide to open a charter school. They must first contract with a College or University to sponsor them. For this the University gets 3% of the per pupil state allowance. In my state we all pay our taxes to the state and they redistribute that money on a per-pupil basis. So if that figure is 8000. The University gets $240 per student who enrolls. Then the Charter, who needs an administration to run the school contracts with a company that will provide for that. This group (usually one or two former Superintendents and a couple of secretaries) take 11-15% of the 8000 or $880-$1200. This leaves the Charter School to manage buildings,books, supplies, teacher salaries, transportation, fuels, building maintaining, Principal Salary, Secretarial salary, maintenance and upkeep to the building on $6,550 per student. Charter Schools are averaging 100-150 kids per school in our area so that means the money they actually get for the school, using 100 students, would be 655.000 per school. Now the Superintendent who gets the 11% doesn't just manage one school but around 10 this would make them around 880,000 a year for he and his secretary(if there is a second super they would also handle 10 schools, but probably use the same secretary knowing them). For that money they would take a personal salary and buy their own office, travel etc.

It is a scam in my state. I can't talk about elsewhere. Follow the money. By the way, my public school gets the 8000.00 and then we put in more money to total about 9000 per student. We outscore Charter Schools every year......I wonder why.

I attended a seminar on opening a Charter School out of curiosity at a conference and this was the information I was given. The Charter's in our area are all non-union and their pay is low compared to public schools and their benefit package is slight.

[madfloridian]

117. I am getting a couple of posts together about Florida and this issue.

I hesitate to post it right now, my sources are always questioned...and it is too sensitive. I am getting them ready, though.

Here's one that shows up one group of charter schools.

Charter school principals fired after questioning taxpayer money spent on school's real estate arm.

It's very haphazard what is going on, and using up public tax money.

[erinlough]

118. I gave up fighting about it...

I figure they must be really great somewhere else for everyone to rave about them. I just can't figure Arne's penchant for the Charter School movement. Unfortunately as much as I love Obama, I can't support his educational agenda, but you can't like everything I guess.

[emsimon33]

119. Duncan has to go and so does all this testing

Obama's girls should have the same test-madness education that he has inflicted on children who lack the ability to pay for expensive private schools.

[Dinger]

120. Kicking Again

Because I need more time. Mr. Dinger has one more test tomorrow. I'll be glad (hopefully) when that's all done.

[madfloridian]

123. Keep up posted. Thoughts going out to you.

Hubby and I have both been there done that. It is nerve-wracking.