Ban on "Ave Maria" at graduation upheld

[The Straight Story]

Ban on "Ave Maria" at graduation upheld


A federal appeals panel has upheld a decision to bar the instrumental performance of a Christian hymn at a high school graduation in Everett.

The case arose after seniors in the Henry M. Jackson High School wind ensemble asked to play an instrumental version of "Ave Maria" at their commencement in June 2006. When school officials said no, one of the students, Kathryn Nurre, challenged them in court.

U.S. District Judge Robert T. Lasnik upheld the school district, ruling that Nurre's First Amendment rights had not been violated.

On Tuesday, two 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals judges agreed with Lasnik. The third, Judge Milan D. Smith, disagreed, writing that it would cause school officials "to chill - or even kill - musical and artistic presentations by their students."

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=209883

I agree with Judge Smith that this can harm artistic expression.

[newscott]

1. Why would you perform that at a high school graduation?

[moriah]

101. Because the music is pretty?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLperaX6Q3A&feature=related

[subcomhd]

107. Stunningly beautiful. nt

[paulsby]

2. i gotta agree

i mean especially considering it's an instrumental for pete's sake.

it's a beautiful piece of music, but it is admittedly containing a strong christian message

lots of music has religious overtones. i mean what if the students chose to perform godspell?

[subcomhd]

106. It has a strong religious message - if you speak Latin. nt

[paulsby]

138. i don't speak it

but i took it in high school.

so, i can read it and swear in it pretty well!

tua mater meritrix sepelunque est (from memory)!

translated: YO MAMA!!!

[aikoaiko]

3. Wow- even the instrumental version is verbotten

I wonder why the request was denied.

[stopbush]

14. How about an instrumental version of the Horst Wessel song?

Here's the words:

The flag high! The ranks tightly closed!
SA marches with a calm, firm pace.
Comrades whom Red Front and reaction shot dead
March in spirit within our ranks.

The streets free for the brown battalions,
The streets free for the storm troop man!
Already millions look with hope to the swastika
The day of freedom and bread is dawning!

Roll call has sounded for the last time
We are all prepared for the fight!
Soon Hitler flags will flutter over barricades
Our servitude will not last much longer now!

The flag high! The ranks tightly closed!
SA marches with a calm, firm pace.
Comrades whom Red Front and reaction shot dead
March in spirit within our ranks.

But without the words, it's just another rousing fight song! Why not play it at a HS graduation? Nobody thinks of the words when you play Ave, Maria or Horst Wessel without the words, do they?

Hey, they play Wagner's music without the words in Israel, don't they? And that music was played as Jews went to the gas chambers. What? They don't play Wagner's music in Israel? Never mind.

[aikoaiko]

23. How about it:?

Would an instrumental version of that be so bad? Kind of boring and not nearly as sublime as Ava Maria, but would people really think that the students or school was advancing the Nazi cause? I wouldn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYIU09o1gsI

[stopbush]

27. I think anybody with a knowledge of history would object.

Jew and Gentile alike.

You may not be offended, and the rest of the audience may not know the piece, but the Jewish grandfather in the audience may well be crushed by your stupidity and indifference.

The point is that there are literally thousands of pieces to chose from that would have the same or greater effect as picking a piece that has existing connotations that could offend someone. Not being able to come up with something besides Ave, Maria to make that effect shows a lack of knowledge and imagination on the part of the person(s) who picked it in the first place.

[aikoaiko]

52. I see your point, but at some point musical notes can be freed from historical usage

I just can't agree that musical notes are politically or religiously offensive.

[Occulus]

72. No, no

"Not being able to come up with something besides Ave, Maria to make that effect shows a typical attempt of a christian with a persecution complex picking a deeply inappropriate piece glorifying his religion while shoving it down the throats of nonbelievers who are present so he can later claim he was being discriminated against when the sane saw through his self-aggrandizement.

Fixed.

[stopbush]

91. Of course, there's that, too.

[subcomhd]

109. That is like comparing Michaelangelo's David to

a racist cartoon on a 1930's Nazi propaganda poster. And your appeal to emotion doesn't make it any more logical.

[stopbush]

115. I was talking about Horst Wessel, not Ave Maria in post 27.

[CTyankee]

117. The David's political statement was about the greatness of the Republic of Florence,

which Michaelangelo was likening to the young historical David. In that sense it was propaganda but of course it does not resonate that way to people today. So I agree with you in that sense.

But I do wonder about the appropriateness of playing such a heavily religious piece in a school venue. Ave Maria was beautifully appropriate when it was sung at Ted Kennedy's funeral service. It's typical of music at Roman Catholic funerals. AS such, I think it would have been better if another piece had been chosen, just out of a sense of good taste and discretion...

[LanternWaste]

120. Your points could theoretically apply to any piece of music...

Your points could theoretically apply to any piece of music.

[Ex Lurker]

100. that seems a bit excessive

more than a bit, actually.

[blondeatlast]

4. And I agree with you and Judge Smith. Anyone who ahs to attach religious meaning to hearing

it cannot appreciate music, IMHO.

[defendandprotect]

29. Are you denying that Ave Maria is a Christian hymn?

[Coventina]

103. "Christian" - no. "hymn" - yes.

Sloppy use of terminology on the part of the reporter/writer of the story.

on edit: clarity - No one could deny "Ave Maria" is Christian, but it's NOT a hymn.

[stopbush]

116. We assume the writer was speaking of the Schubert or Bach

Ave Maria, which were set as songs or arias. There are hymn versions of the text available.

[CTyankee]

119. Well, it's a prayer put to music, beseeching the Virgin Mary to pray for us.

Don't hymns beseech the Almighty to help us?

[Coventina]

125. Hymns cover a wide variety of topics.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not complaining about it being banned.

My gripe is with the misuse of the term "hymn". A hymn is a song for congregational singing in a church service, generally written in four-part harmony.

Schubert's "Ave Maria" is none of the above.

[CTyankee]

136. Of course, strictly speaking you are correct. As I am, when I say Ave Maria is a prayer

set to music. If we disallow prayer at a public school graduation, then we should disallow a musical prayer. And I have nothing against Schubert (except the lieder which I am not real fond of)...

[Coventina]

137. As you say, if spoken prayers are banned then musical ones

should be as well.

As I already stated: My gripe with the article was the misuse of "hymn".

:hi:

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. Sure, because there are no other non-Christian works from which to choose

I happen to love this kind of music, but that is my taste, and it is religious devotional in one particular religion and therefore ought not to be played at school.

[The Straight Story]

6. So we should censor art to protect the kids? (nt)

[Cronus Protagonist]

8. Nice red herring

Because the truth is not what you want to defend, you make your own offering to shoot down. Hey, go ahead and do that, but it would be better done in your own mind rather than in public.

You know as well as I do that art, music, words, speech, actions, or anything that promotes a particular religion is constitutionally abhorrent in a government or public school setting. That includes music, an artistic rendering of a cross, a painting of Jesus, a statue of Buddha, a chant for Hare Krsna and, of course, Christian devotional music.

And it has nothing to do with "protecting" the kids.

[defendandprotect]

35. This isn't censorship of art -- it can be played anywhere . . . EXCEPT

in a public high school or at a public school graduation.

"Ave Maria" is a Christian hymn -- and an advertisement for "god" --

and usually for organized patriarchal religion and its dictates --

including male supremacy.

Is that really what you want to teach your kids?

Probably some very beautiful Muslim hymns around -- would that suit

anyone at this schools?

FAUX

[cherokeeprogressive]

54. "anywhere . . . EXCEPT"

:eyes: :rofl: :crazy:

[The Straight Story]

55. So you mandate a child go to school, then deny their music because you are scared of something

That sounds like censorship to me. Private school, maybe, not public.

I would for one would like to know HOW it would harm anyone to hear an instrumental.

[treestar]

110. I can see your point

A classical music course would definitely include religious references in the music. You can't study classical music without the Mass - it's a musical form. You'd have to learn about Handel's Messiah, and many others.

I took one in college where that was not an issue but why shouldn't a high school have a course in classical music or music apprecation, and that would necessarily involve religion. I suppose it could be looked upon as historical - you can't study history without learning about religion either.

Without lyrics a piece of music could be said to be neutral. In fact there are likely to be many Christians who would not recognize it.

[Zhade]

130. Utter bullshit, of course. The kids are allowed to listen to the music.

The school just can't give them a captive audience forced to listen to it.

Censorship my ass.

[defendandprotect]

45. So . . . is "IMAGINE" by John Lennon being played or censored . .

at school graduations -- ???

How about Hebrew hymns or Muslim hymns -- are they being played?

How about poems by atheists . . . ? Are they being censored???

:eyes:

[Dorian Gray]

105. We sang Imagine

at my 8th Grade Graduation in 1985.

[madmom]

118. "Imagine" was our class song, played at graduation. But that was in the 70's

[Zhade]

131. Neither "Imagine" or atheist-penned poems are religious in nature, so...

NT!

[ourbluenation]

7. This is appropriate. The words in English...

Hail Mary,
full of grace,
the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

I don't think so. And I think this song is beautiful even though I'm a non-believer.

[KittyWampus]

12. IMO, worship of the Virgin Mary transcends Catholicism and contains the vestiges of Goddess worship

at its core. Symbolically, it hints at our Collective Unconscious and our Commonality.

:)

[stopbush]

17. Bullshit.

[blondeatlast]

19. Her opinion is bullshit?

IMO="in my opinion." Reactionary much?

[stopbush]

24. The part about worshipping Mary "transcending Catholicism," that's what.

I have a problem with the word "transcending" used in this instance.

I agree that the concept of a virgin mother has roots in ancient theologies that predate Catholicism.

My one-word rejoinder was too harsh. Sorry.

[blondeatlast]

18. I never thought of it that way but it seems reasonable. Lots of similarities. nt

[defendandprotect]

41. The Virgin Mary was pushed on Ireland to replace the Goddess Bridget they

were taking away as they imposed Catholicism on Ireland --

Not only is organized patriarchal religion a way to do great damage to a nation --

to separate it -- but it's a wonderful land mine to leave behind to create damage!

Whether "god" or "goddess" no belief system should be imposed upon school children . . .

nor a captured audience of parents!

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. But you'll never get the church to admit it -

the 'Mary cult' was created specifically to supplant the various middle-eastern goddess cults, and any art historian can draw comparisons between early deptictions of Mary and Rome's Vesta (of the Vestal VIRGINS), and thus make the transition to the supposedly mono-theistic christianity easier for them. Of course, for the 'mother' image there was also Hestia, or Juno, so just as 'god' was 'father, son, and holy spirit', so Mary was Virgin and Mother.

It's all about co-opting the ignorant.

[defendandprotect]

42. Bravo -- !!

[hedgehog]

87. What is this "church" you speak of? If you are referring to a small group

of male celibates ostensibly in charge, I guarantee that none of them were ever smart enough to concoct a Mary cult to displace other goddesses and cement their power. If by "'church" you are referring to the community of believers, well of course women and some men responded to the image of Mary as Mother of God. In fact, I have a general impression that the cult of Mary grew from below rather than being imposed from above.

As for depictions of Mary resembling depictions of Rome's Vesta, what else would they draw? Basilicas were converted into churches because they were handy large public gathering places. People work with what they have.

[RaleighNCDUer]

102. When it was created, in the 4th century, the church was anything but

celibate. And that 'small group of male celibates ostensibly in charge' was actually Roman aristocracy - well acquainted with the use of power and persuasion to keep themselves in charge. Just as the pagan bishops (that word also comes from the pagan church hierarchy) were the sons of the nobility, so were the early christian bishops after Constantine co-opted the religion for Rome. As the empire crumbled the wealth and power of the Roman aristocracy transferred to the newly Romanized christian church.

Just as depictions of God by the artists of the early christian era looked amazingly like the great statue of Zeus of Olympia, so the depictions of Mary resembled the earlier pagan goddesses. It was not by accident, or mere convenience. It was a deliberate decision by the PTB, just as choosing Dec 25th for the birthday of Christ was, though textually he should have been born in late spring - they needed to co-opt the celebration of the sun, the worship of Mithris, who was the most popular god in the Roman military, and that was his birthday (also born of a virgin and ascended physically to heaven).

[ourbluenation]

36. no goddess worship in school. period.

[defendandprotect]

39. But very few Americans understand that -- and still, why not a Jewish hymn

or a Muslim hymn . . .


:evilgrin:


I'm all for the return of the goddess, but not for imposing any belief system

on school kids!

[yodermon]

74. *cough* davinci code *cough*

[Pangolin2]

9. I agree, as a staunch supporter of church/state separation, with Smith.

It's a beautiful song with or without lyrics that transcends the boundary of secular vs. religion in the service
of musical art. I wouldn't necessarily make the same argument for every musical selection that's intimately connected to religion but enjoying and/or appreciating something with intrinsic artistic value doesn't bother me.

edit: meant to say no objection to the instrumental performance anywhere the lyrics might be inappropriate or discomfiting.

[defendandprotect]

43. Then, perhaps they should have also selected a hymn from every other religion . . .???

AND some atheist music, perhaps??

Everyone is familiar with the "instrumental" version and what the son is -- a Christian hymn.

That's an advertisement to school children in an attempt to sell "god" to them.

Whether "god" or "goddess" it has no place in a public school --

and least of all in a graduation exercise where parents are a captured audience of many

different religions -- and non-believers, as well!

[Pangolin2]

66. Sure, why not? If you mean instrumental...I got no problem with that. I'm an atheist but I have no

idea what would be an example of atheist music, I have to admit...


"Plastic Jesus"???
??

[Zhade]

132. In the context of religious music? Silence.

NT!

[stopbush]

10. Yes, there are only a handful of pieces available to play at a HS graduation.

NOT!

[stopbush]

11. No mention of whose Ave Maria it was.

Probably the Schubert version, rather than the Bach/Gounod. Those are the two that are the most famous.

Of course, many composers set the Ave, Maria to music.

Maybe a good solution would have been to play the version by Percy Kahn (made famous on record by Enrico Caruso with Misha Elman on the fiddle). That way, they would have played a nice tune that nobody today remembers and that nobody today associates with the words "Ave, Maria", and the religious kids would have got their religious tune into the graduation ceremonies.

[immoderate]

13. I'm with the music. And I'm an atheist.

This is a little nuts. Music (and art) gets a pass from me. I always tear up when I hear the "Ave Maria." Music that references religion is artistic expression. I don't turn off "Let It Be" by the Beatles, or "Jesus Is Just Alright" by the Byrds. or "Spirit in the Sky" by Norman Greenbaum because they refer to religion, any more than I would ban "When the Saints Go Marching In."

--imm

[stopbush]

21. Would you be OK with "Jesus is just alright" being played at a HS graduation

ceremony (assuming some teacher decided to program it for whatever reason)?

Just wondering.

[blondeatlast]

26. Not me--

as an instrumental, it would be a crappy choice, unlike Ave Maria, which is beautiful both ways (and difficult to perform).

[Pangolin2]

31. I know you didn't ask me but I'd say no because while it's a catchy little tunelet

it sure as hell isn't classically or even timelessly admirable. :D

[immoderate]

50. No. But "Let It Be" and "Saints Go Marching In" would be OK.

-imm

[Dappleganger]

108. This is a great example of a song which has cultural meaning

Can you imagine NOT allowing this song to be played by a NO high school band??? It has very religious words but is so tied up into New Orleans/LA history that it would be a slap in the face to their people to deny high schoolers the opportunity to play it.

IMO this separation thing is a delicate issue, but we need to make sure to not throw out the baby with the bath water. There is much religious music (classical) which IS art and needs to be seen as such.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

15. I agree whole-heartedly.

[TahitiNut]

16. It's interesting that so much instructional time (and practice) was invested ....

... (on the taxpayer's dime) and only when it comes to the graduation ceremony do they go "Duh! It might offend."

Sheesh. :eyes:

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. My first reaction was 'of course' -

but then seeing it was instrumental only, I don't see the problem.

(Of course, being raised Luthern, 'Ave Maria' was never really religious music to me. :evilgrin: )

[TrogL]

22. Maybe we should just retire some pieces for 20 years

...so we can appreciate them again.

Ave Maria (Schubert or Bach/Gounod)
Handel's Messiah
Bach - Air on G String


... and a whole lot of other pieces found on classical collection CD's for the musically illiterate.

[Pangolin2]

And now I'm questioning my own position having recalled "Jesus was a Capricorn"

which I always liked a lot! :D
:eyes: :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

44. Maybe some music from "Hair" would have worked . . . "Imagine" . . .

but I doubt they were anxious to practice or play Hebrew hymns or Muslim hymns . . .

or sought any material that questioned religion --- like "IMAGINE" . . .!!!

[Lars39]

25. In times past there used to be 2 graduation ceremonies...

one religious and then the plain ol'graduation ceremony. We used to have them on 2 separate days. Can't remember the name of the religious one.

[blondeatlast]

30. Baccalaureates, IIRC. nt

[iris27]

127. Baccalaureate - and depending on where you are in the US, they still have them,

and students are REQUIRED to go to both, even though it's a public school. Happened to my husband when we graduated in 2000. Of course, this was the school that even opened the 'regular' graduation ceremony with a Christian invocation.

(I went to a private Lutheran HS...and we still had both baccalaureate and regular graduation, but at least there it made sense that both were required.)

[defendandprotect]

28. This is just another attempt by the right wing to get "god" into school and graduation . .

and, of course, this has nothing to do with "artistic expression" . . . it has

to do with Separation of Church & State without which protects your right to

free thought, free conscience. Unfortunately, organized patriarchal religion is

fascism -- it's about dictating beliefs -- including the belief in male supremacy!!

[Blue_In_AK]

32. Things have changed a lot since I was a highschool kid

in South Houston, Texas, in 1964. I sang in the a capella choir and our choir director was a staunch Baptist. I'd say probably 2/3 of the songs we learned and performed in school were of a religious nature. One of the big events each year was when we would join with the choir from Pasadena High School and sing Handel's Messiah. I can't remember what we sang at graduation other than "Give me your tired, your poor," but I'm sure there was a God song in there somewhere. On our choir trip we went up to East Texas, Nacadoches or somewhere, and sang in a Baptist church. Nobody gave any of that a second thought then ... including me. I just liked the music and didn't pay much attention to the words.

I can't tell you the last time I was in a church. I guess all the religious music didn't warp me too bad.

[Pangolin2]

37. I hear you loud and clear. I'm no fan of religion...far from it but it is not as if

music from that genre that I might happen to appreciate is going to melt me like holy water on a vampire...so to speak...

:D

[stopbush]

38. Its' a real problem to find non-religious choral music that kids can

perform. The majority of the choral music written by the great composers was written on religious themes. Of course, there are opera choruses and secular choruses from these composers, but the standard fare that we used to sing in school - Messiah, Battle Hymn of the Republic etc, had religious texts.

I don't know what choral teachers do in schools these days.

[WCGreen]

76. Almost every Broadway Musical has been transposed for Choir...

We sang a whole shit lode of Musicals in High School.

[Blue_In_AK]

83. That's what I was going to say.

Show tunes. Religious stuff and show tunes. That was about it.

[stopbush]

90. Sure, but the quality of the music can hardly match the adventurousness

of what one normally finds in classical music. Unless one is singing Sondheim, the music is all pretty basic. One may as well sing other pop songs.

[surrealAmerican]

61. The reason you didin't give it a second thought ...

... was probably because you were christian. If you had been raised a hindu, you would probably have either quit the choir, or never joined in the first place. You would have felt unwelcome, even if you thought the music sounded good.

[Blue_In_AK]

62. Perhaps,

but I don't think I would have had a problem singing Hindu songs either. And I can recall learning Jewish songs at some point during my childhood as well.

But that's just me.

[stopbush]

92. My wife asked me why I don't join the semi-professional choir here in OC.

We went to one of their concerts, and they're really good (The Pacific Chorale). The problem for me is that almost every single piece they perform is a religious piece. That's just the way it is with choral music.

It's hard to get around being an atheist and singing in a choir. I used to sing a lot of church gigs to make a few extra bucks. I often ended up singing solos at those churches. Inevitably, some well-meaning soul would give you what they thought was a complement: "you're so lucky to have such a god-given talent." In my case, the fact was that my natural tendencies in singing were quite wrong, which is to say the untrained "god-given" technique I was born with sucked. It was years of study, hard work and thousands of dollars spent on my part that developed that "god-given" voice the church ladies so appreciated.

But you don't tell that to the well-meaning soul. You smile and say thanks, swallowing your core beliefs and reinforcing their belief that they know god's work when they hear it.

Eventually, I got to the point where I didn't need the extra income and stopped the church gigs. I must say I don't miss it one bit.

[LeftyMom]

97. We sang a lot of Christian music in high school choir,

and based on the demographics of my school most of the girls were probably Buddhists, then Catholics, Mormons and a very few Protestants, mostly Baptist and things like that. As far as I know nobody ever said a thing- the only complaining I ever heard was about our horrid, unsingable alma mater. Our choir director, FWIW, was a Methodist, I only know that because of the stamp on the back of some of the sheet music.

Our choir director was quite open about why we sang so many churchy songs: we had almost no budget to buy sheet music, and since she ran her church's choir for free they didn't mind her borrowing materials for the school choir. She practically begged for anybody with connections in the community to bring in other materials, because she wanted our programs to reflect all of us. I know she tried to mix it up, so we had songs in Latin and spirituals and everything in between in addition to whatever stuff she could get the school to cough up some money for. She always seemed fairly apologetic that she couldn't get them to spring for more music, and that we had to make do while other programs had more funding.

Strangely enough, my most memorable, if gut wrenching and horrible, moment in high school involves one of those songs she had borrowed from her church, and by far the most overtly religious English language song we ever performed. One of our classmates, the girl who stood next to me in choir and helped me get the hang of things when I joined a few weeks into the year, a remarkably friendly and promising girl, died suddenly in an act of horrible violence. We all found out what had happened just before our scheduled performance that night. Rather than do our scheduled set, or not perform at all (our CD gave us the option and said she would support us in whatever we felt best) we went out, did her favorite song, with it's extremely religious and strangely appropriate to the occasion lyrics, and retreated, still rather in shock over the whole thing.

[Oeditpus Rex]

64. I was thinking the same thing

I was in Central Coast Section Honor Choir in my junior and senior years, and about half the songs we performed were about "God" or "Him" or something. One, "Surely, He Hath Borne our Griefs," was in Latin, and another "Reconciliation," was blatantly Christian:

God was in Christ
Reconciling the world
to himself
(Repeated ad infinetum, in different keys and tempos.)

(Spoken, in an eight-part round: )
Therefore, if any man be in Christ
He is a new creature
Old things are passed away
Behold, all things are become new
And all things are of God
Who has reconciled us to himself
by Jesus Christ
And has given us the ministry
of reconciliation



In my junior year, the performance was at Carmel Mission. Great acoustics.

As far as I know, no one thought much about any of this. :shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

34. Stay in Seattle, folks. It gets freakish out in the sticks.

[cherish44]

40. I'm not religious but I love Ave Maria.

It's a beautiful song. It's more of a Catholic song than a fundie Christian song though I think. Anyway I understand the controversy but it's still one of those songs that just takes my breath away.

[Lagomorph]

88. Agreed.

A lot of people go to churches during Christmas just for the Messiah performances.

Ave Maria is also wonderful entertainment.

[Prism]

46. Let's ban Michaelangelo and Leonardo while we're at it.

This is so ridiculous. This is anti-education and anti-art under the guise of secularism. Much of the great art of Western Civilization is inspired by religion. Ave Maria is a great work, just as so many popular choral pieces were born of religious devotion. No one has to be religious to appreciate them or recognize how these things elevate the human to the sublime. I'm areligious, and I think Ave Maria is one of the most beautiful pieces ever composed.

The people on these kinds of anti-religion crusades are no better than the Islamic fundamentalists who blew up Buddha statues. It's all about radical intolerance and it is utterly, utterly illiberal.

[EndersDame]

49. Lets Ban preformances of Midsummer's Night Dream since it deals with pagan icons such as Puck!

[Thothmes]

56. Dont forget America, my country tis of thee

the music is from "God Save the King" (or Queen as the case may be). Certainly do not want to ackknowoledge a foreign Monarck.

[Maru Kitteh]

85. I agree with you entirely.

[Swamp Rat]

47. Wow! Someone must not like Franz Schubert and...............

Schumann, Bach, Mozart, Cherubini, Saint-Saëns, Verdi, Bruckner, Villa-Lobos.... ad infinitum

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[EndersDame]

48. Well Shit I guess no more Greek plays will be preformed since it involves deities !

Teaching bible study in school no. Appreciating Religous Art work yes. Christianity and religion in general has had a big impact on art. see examples below(not to mention Greek plays dealing with the Gods and hell maybe even Midsummers Night Dream since it deals with faries aka druidism)

[Pangolin2]

63. It's amusing how the Italians have never figured out a way to reconcile state-sanctioned homophobia

with the necessity to deify Michaelangelo. Actually it's kinda comical. :D

[Barack_America]

51. If they want funeral music at their graduation, I say let them. nt

[Toasterlad]

53. No One's More Anti-Religion Than Me...

But the Ave Maria (I'm assuming it's either the Schubert or the Gounod version - both are beautiful) without words seems just as appropriate as any other piece of instrumental music - and much better than most. I fail to see how playing it infringes upon anyone's freedom of religion.

[dembotoz]

57. good

elementary school that all 3 of my sons attended always had old spirituals for the music concerts.
it
was
just
wrong

[EndersDame]

68. Would you object to a highschool preformance of a Greek drama that dealt with deities?

[Pangolin2]

79. Your question presumes an educational level that's not in play.

:shrug:

[etherealtruth]

58. I suppose I do understand ... I guess I would be offended by any other "hymn"

... but, damn .... Ave Maria is probably one of the (if not the) most beautiful music piece I've ever heard.

[Stinky The Clown]

59. That was my parents' wedding recessional when they got married in 1946.

[MineralMan]

60. In my senior year of high school, I was asked to do a vocal solo

of my choice at the Christmas pageant. I was a very good tenor, and selected "Ave Maria" since I really wanted to perform it in public. It was a favorite of mine. The selection was rejected as "too Catholic" by the school principal. Too Catholic. Never mind that I was a Presbyterian at the time. So, I chose "O Holy Night" instead. That was OK. I sang it in the original French, so that pissed people off, for some reason I'll never understand.

Very strange. I was interested in the music, and that was all.

A few years later, I had another opportunity to sing "O Holy Night" in the Presbyterian church I attended all through high school. I was in the USAF at the time, in 1967, and had been in an intensive Russian program at Syracuse U. at the AF's expense. So, I did a translation of the song into Russian, and sang it in French, Russian, and English.

I got criticized for singing it in "some foreign language," and further got criticized for showing up in my Air Force dress uniform.

I finally figured it all out. That was part of what started me on my path to atheism.

I finally did get a chance to perform "Ave Maria," though, in a cathedral in France. Finally...long after I had given up all religious belief. It is still a beautiful piece of music.

[kiva]

65. I think you answered the question I was going to post.

The article refers to "Ave Maria" as a Christian song, but (from a Lutheran upbringing) I was always told it was more specifically a Catholic hymn.

[donco6]

67. Thank You, Jesus.

I despise that song.

[Pangolin2]

71. Really? I hate to think how offended you'd be by Nessun Dorma

:shrug:

[donco6]

75. It's just long and boring.

I've always hated it. Not offended by it. Just hate the song.

[astral]

69. Kids are already so insulated from cultural things that they

wouldn't know a religious instrumental song if it slapped them in the face, if they were also insulated from anything to do with religion at home.

Where do we go from here? List all the titles of songs that are to be banned from delicate little students' ears, even in their instrumental form?

Go ahead, try to list them, of course, starting with the most beautiful and popular melodies of all time.

Then try to start a nice little list (please put SOMETHING on it, please!) with SONGS THAT WON'T OFFEND.

SONGS THAT ARE POLITICALLY CORRECT.

SONGS THAT ARE APPROPRIATE.

nah, that's someone ELSE's job!

Spirit in the Sky was a lovely little earworm tune, now, wasn't it? 1970, I never could kick it outa my brain.

Kinda like it, I guess ; )

[RC]

70. Yeah, but..., but..., but,

Christians have good music.

[bridgit]

73. Well that works for me, Ave is bigger than grad night; they should have chose: Air on G string

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK60EoEdZug&feature=PlayList&p=FE8D4CC0C53FE686&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

[Pangolin2]

80. The Rare Bach and Let 'em Have It boys were among the few to salvage Bach's "music"

to the realm of listenability. Most of his stuff is just crap.

[bridgit]

99. Don't know much about music I see...cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz7_3n7xyDg :smoke:

[Pangolin2]

113. I had to laugh at that goofy turd

:rofl:
(There wasn't any music there, though)

[valerief]

77. Thank god. It's such a dirge. nt

[sl8]

78. Link to decision:

NURRE V. WHITEHEAD opinion:
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/09/08/07-35867.pdf

[intheflow]

81. OMG, I was fighting that battle 28 years ago!

I had colossal fights with my high school chorus teacher about singing church songs (mostly Latin-y type hymns like Ave Maria). I was dismissed as an extremist. I'm so very happy to read that someone, somewhere had success in separating church and public school music!

[usregimechange]

82. They did not uphold the ban, they upheld school administrator's right to do so

Small but important distinction.

[originalpckelly]

84. Those judges can go fuck themselves, Ave Maria is wonderful!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uYrmYXsujI

[usregimechange]

86. How many who just expressed an opinion read the court's?

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/09/08/07-35867.pdf

[dalaigh lllama]

89. Amusingly, we weren't allowed to use the Ave Maria at our wedding

in a Catholic Church back in the 70's because it was composed by a Lutheran. Also couldn't use any Gregorian chant because it was in Latin. (That priest was something else.)

[stopbush]

93. Bach was Lutheran, Schubert was Catholic.

You could have used the Schubert version, perhaps sung in the original German.

[dalaigh lllama]

112. Well, that just makes me more disgusted with him

as it was the Schubert we wanted to do. He must have just figured all Germans were Lutherans and I took his word for it at the time. I just remember being shocked that he'd be against the Ave Maria.

[stopbush]

114. Beethoven was also Catholic.

Too bad your priest couldn't be bothered to do the research.

BTW - the Bach/Gounod Ave Maria is quite a different story. Charles-Francois Gounod was also a Catholic. He wrote his Ave Maria in 1859. It consists of a melody he wrote superimposed over the Prelude No. 1 in C major from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier (BWV 846), composed by J. S. Bach some 137 years earlier.

The Bach/Gounod Ave Maria is more about Gounod than it is about Bach. Your priest also erred in believing the Bach/Gounod version was Lutheran, as Bach had nothing to do with its composition.

JS Bach would never have written an Ave Maria as the Protestant church doesn't elevate people to sainthood status, as do the Catholics. He did, however, set the Magnificat, which is based on Mary's words when she conceived Jesus (ie: My soul doth magnify the Lord). Bach set this text in Latin (BWV 243). He also set what is called the German Magnificat (Meine Seele erhebt den Herr), cataloged as a church cantata, BWV 10. There is also a setting of this piece for soprano solo (Ahn. 21) that was long believed to have been written by someone other than JS Bach. Research in 1995 confirmed the soprano version as being authentic Bach.

The difference is that the Catholic Ave, Maria is a song in praise of Mary as a quasi-diety (a saint), and Protestants don't praise anybody but full-on deities. The Bach versions don't glorify Mary. Rather, the words of Mary are sung in praise of god.

[tocqueville]

94. ban "God Bless America", graduation should be strictly secular

banning Ave Maria is plain Catholic bashing. Nothing else.

[stopbush]

122. I'm quite OK with banning "God Bless America" from PS graduation ceremonies.

It has no place there.

At a religious school, fine.

[Iggo]

95. It's a very pretty song. One of my favorites.

But it's a prayer. A prayer set beautifully to music. But a prayer nonetheless. And a specifically and famously denominational prayer, to boot.

I would've thought that's where the argument would begin and end, but for some reason they're talking about art.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

96. I think this is wrong.

I'm a musical atheist. The good classical stuff is in Latin. I would say they should do no Catholic or protestant hymns in English.

The good classical stuff is only done in concert halls nowadays. You want a good barn-burning requiem mass with souls sizzling in hell, you gotta do it in the concert hall.

Also, the fact that it's an instrumental makes it acceptable. As others have already noted, most of the classical choral stuff is religious. Both Ave Marias are beautiful pieces.

What if they had had a string quartet that wanted to play one of Haydn's quartets, called Austria? And what if somebody else said, "No you can't play that, that was Hitler's fight song"???

The kids aren't learning anything about classical music or any culture in general, and this will make it harder for them to learn classical music.

I've gotten so bored from singing stuff in English that most of what I want to perform in the future is secular and in foreign languages.

I loved Art History in college and have a great appreciation for churches and religious art, although I have no interest in being a Christian.

[CTyankee]

121. There are Protestant Christians that are strongly opposed to Mary worship.

It's kinda the point of Protestantism: you should pray to God not ask for intercession through the saints. So it is in error to characterize Ave Maria as "Christian." It is "Roman Catholic."

[stopbush]

123. Protestant hymns are almost never sung in Latin.

They are sung in the vernacular of the country in which they are being sung. That's the point of Protestantism - to remove the wall between god and man, a wall that the Catholic Church erected with their body of priests and saints and other intermediaries who stood between god and man.

That's one of the main reasons the Catholics stayed with the Latin Mass for so long - it served as a mysterious boundary between god and man that needed to be interpreted for the laity by the priests.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

126. Yep. And most of the good classical stuff is in Latin.

Except for the Brahms German Requiem.

[stopbush]

134. Not really.

Nearly all of Bach's choral music is in German. Ditto Haydn. Mozart set Latin, but he was a Catholic.

[Blue_In_AK]

98. The Ave Maria that Barbara Padilla did on America's Got Talent

was phenomenal. It may be a religious song, but I am in awe of that woman's voice.

[subcomhd]

104. fools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKU3lnN6tdM

[Festivito]

111. STOP THINGS LIKE: "Maria, I just met a girl named Maria."

Stupid ban as far as I'm concerned. Oh, and it sounds like stupid judges too.

[LanternWaste]

124. Truly one of the most absurd decisions I've ever heard of.

Truly one of the most absurd decisions I've ever heard of.



Since they're at it, they may as well attempt to ban all literary references to a deity also in front of what the judge called "a captive audience"-- an absence of Dickens, or Shakespeare, or Chaucer, or the Epic of Gilgamesh is a very small trade off for this most wise, dogmatic, and absolutist ruling.

[iris27]

128. The important question is - Schubert or Bach?

Because if it wasn't Schubert's, I'm 100% behind the ban. :rofl:

[Zhade]

129. Good. The school IS NOT ALLOWED to endorse religion. Letting them do this would do so.

Good ruling.

[Political Heretic]

135. Playing a song isn't "endorsing" anything.

[Political Heretic]

133. Um...... ok. Whatever.

:shrug:

[iris27]

139. The real kick of it is, neither popular instrumental version was originally used for

the Ave Maria.

The Bach was just one of his many preludes from The Well-Tempered Clavier, until a French composer came along over a hundred years later and added a vocal melody for the Ave Maria over the top.

The Schubert was originally part of his song cycle adapting the German poem "The Lady of the Lake", and is about a woman in exile and hiding in a cave with her father to escape a king, and she prays to Mary for help. The first line of that being "Ave Maria" is likely what inspired the adaptation to get the melody to work with the full Hail Mary text.

Kinda like how our national anthem stole its melody from a British drinking song. :)