I'm tired....

[walldude]

of being right. This is getting boring. The latest of course is the school speech "controversy" where the left said Obama was going to give a speech about working hard and staying in school while the right ranted and raved about "indoctrinating our children". Of course Obama came out today and gave the speech we said he would. And of course the right's response was "he changed the speech".

Gimme a fucking break. You were wrong. Again. Admit it and move on like a grown up fer chrissakes.

I love a good debate but I'm getting tired of matching wits with unarmed opponents. They have nothing. No facts, no reasonable arguments, no sense that they are debating against their own best interests. It's all just loony shit. At least when we went off on Bush it was for shit he had actually done. Not some imagined crap that he might do (well we did have a few nuts, but our nuts are the fringe, their nuts are on the TV). It's gotten to the point where I don't even bother anymore. I just laugh at them and walk away. It's all they deserve. Scorn and ridicule. I used to think that the idea was to find common ground with people and try to work from there but there is no common ground with these folks. THey will say anything to win. Whatever it takes to be right. I was once long ago married to a pathological liar. The one thing I learned from her was, you can't debate a lie. If you defeat the lie then they will come up with a bigger lie to defend the first one, lies upon lies upon lies. Really. It's tiring.



Note: Please don't think I think I am right about everything. Just everything when I debate a right winger. I could make a list here but you all know what's on it. Patriot Act, Energy Policy, Illegal Wars, Torture, etc, etc... We were right about almost everything.

[NRaleighLiberal]

1. Most of us here are suffering from the huge ego boosting "being right" for more than 8 years now!

I know what you mean. There is no joy in being right when those that are wrong are ruining the world, and so many people's lives. It's like your head explodes several times per day!

[H2O Man]

2. I hear you.

Recommended.

[TahitiNut]

26. Ditto. It's not so much a matter of left and right as it is a matter of right and wrong.

:shrug:

[SidneyCarton]

3. I'm tired too.

It gets old, so old. Particularly the Nazi references. I'm getting my PhD in History, and the area in which I focus my research is Weimar Germany, I sometimes wonder why I bother, who needs context, scholarship and sources, I could just blow 300+ pages on ranting, paranoia and half-truths mixed with paranoia and I'd be a prophet. The fact that instead I sit down and argue that things are more complex than people think, and they either act like I started speaking Aramaic, or start calling me an apologist.

It gets a little tiresome.

[Richard D]

4. This is my favorite quote lately:

" Mit der Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergebens"

[walldude]

9. "Against stupidity the gods themselves fight in vain"

Had to look it up. Great quote. It seems that teh stupid is taking over. Idiocracy was not supposed to be a documentary.

[tekisui]

5. Get ready to be right again. The next unsubstantiated hate-filled outrage

is fast approaching.Want a clue what the subject will be this time? It will be Obama's next move.

[Uncle Joe]

6. That's why I believe President Obama's school speech

was also good for the adults, school never ends. In one sense the controversy surrounding his speech gave it additional power as many adults; not inclined to listen to him, no doubt checked it out looking for validation of their fears and ignorance.

I believe what you're bumping up against is in using logic against emotion, don't resist their emotion or you will tire, instead I would suggest harnessing and redirecting their emotional energy to make your point using the principles of Ju Jitsu.

It can be invigorating when they flip.

Thanks for the thread, walldude.

[lib_wit_it]

22. "Harnessing & redirecting their emotional energy...Any chance you'd take the give an example of

how that might go? I'm not familiar with Ju Jitsu, but I desperately need a replacement strategy for my constantly thwarted attempts to fight their emotion-based bullshit with my emotionally charged logic.

[Uncle Joe]

23. Here is a example of what I consider emotional Jiu Jitsu.

In this case I believe it worked against us, as I posted on the thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x349634

There is another thread floating around here somewhere that I interpreted as strongly working for us, which I posted on as well, but I haven't been able to locate it yet.

[lib_wit_it]

24. Thanks for the link, though It's still not clear to me. Hope to see the other example you noted.

[Uncle Joe]

25. I have searched but still can't find the other example.

Maybe you could explain what you don't understand about the concept?

[lib_wit_it]

27. How to employ it successfully against raging RW lies. I couldn't tell who, in the video, you thought

was employing the technique.

[Uncle Joe]

28. I have copied my post #22 below from that thread which explains who I thought

employed the technique.

Emotional Jiu Jitsu would be using your opponent's emotional energy against them instead of overtly trying to resist it with your own energy.

I believe this energy can be built up in one of three ways, it may totally or in large part come from your opponent, it may be instigated or fed by you in a pseudo sympathetic manner or it may be a combination of the two.

In this case I believe Matthews; instigated or built the energy on behalf of the Labor/Democratic point of view only to use that same energy against him, that's why I labeled it a "Trojan Horse" interview, it was a false gift or a candy bar with a poison pill, however you want to look at it.


"I would call this an emotional, Ju Jitsu, Trojan Horse interview by Matthews.

It's not the gift it appears to be.

Matthews spent the Lion's Share of the Interview questioning and berating the Republican lack of movement on health care building all the energy up for the labor side while giving little time for Labor to make it's point. He cuts off the Labor leader during his limited time while he was making a critical point about the insured being screwed over along with the un-insured and then follows that up with a quick final question putting Labor dude on the spot, paraphrasing "Will they support the health care bill or bitch and moan about it because it's not enough?"

After all the emotional energy Matthews spent during that entire interview berating the Republicans for doing nothing for decades, the Labor Leader had little choice but to say yes, they will support whatever comes out. This is ironic considering Matthews aggressively questioned the Republican Protesters for yelling "no" and not knowing what they were objecting to, he then proceeds to get a commitment from Labor leader to support whatever comes out without knowing what that is!

I believe this was a subliminal means of Matthews working on behalf of the for profit "health" insurance corporations by getting a pre-commitment from Labor on a deal which is very much in flux. What if for example it's a bad bill?

Labor guy should have said we support full debate on the issue and will make a determination of support when we actually see the bill, or state what they do believe in, of course Matthews knew that would be difficult for him to say, after having spent most of the interview berating the Republicans for doing nothing and then giving Labor short time to think or respond.

I see this as just more corporate media manipulation."

[lunatica]

7. honest debate has taken a beating with the capitulation of the media

It started getting screwed with Reagan. It's as if people just wanted some delusion about this country so badly that they went with the lies, any lies that would make them feel better after the Iran Hostage situation. Then it got progressively worse at more and more of the media started getting bought up by the big Republican corporations. By the time Clinton was in office it was almost a done deal. Monica Lewinsky was their first big win.

They've never taken even a breather since. They've run over everything that stands in their way. Truth, facts, reason, logic, and any middle ground meeting of minds. They've pulled so far to the Right that it's as if they're pulling a slingshot back tighter and tighter.

It has been exhausting because we thought we could counter it and fight back. But you can't fight back against opinion when you're using facts. In today's culture opinion trumps facts.

[librechik]

8. you are only exactly right

ACK!

The ENNUI!

[DailyGrind51]

10. You can't argue with those who STILL believe that Saddam was involved in "9/11"!

[L0oniX]

13. ...or those that think the Taliban attacked us on 9/11.

[DailyGrind51]

19. "There are none so deaf as those who will not hear."

Or, will not be confused by the facts because their minds are already made up.

[L0oniX]

11. Oh the irony. Indoctrinate ...hmmm ...isn't that what normally goes on in school?

Oh yea I get it ...Obama wants to indoctrinate students to become socialists ...in uhmm school ...hmmm which is a form of socialism. I mean ...isn't school one of the accepted socialist programs we approve of in the US? I'm just trying to figure this out but it looks like the same shit that you hear from the 65 year olds and older who are on SS and medicare, that complain about the government getting involved with their medicare and SS. I guess maybe the government is just now getting involved with schools too. Jeeze ...the irony and hypocrisy of them all. The objections to the Obama speech in school is all about the fucking racist bastards not wanting young children to see that a black person can be president!

[Swamp Rat]

12. Scorn and ridicule.

;)

[walldude]

15. Nice to see you my friend. I hope all is well with you.

I see your artistic side has not lost it's sting. :toast:

[Swamp Rat]

17. Way'at walldude!

:hi::toast:

Dumb r'wingers provide an endless supply of crap to ridicule. :D

[Joe Fields]

14. I'll rec your rant. It is justly deserved.....

[horseshoecrab]

16. k& r walldude n/t

[imdjh]

18. Go out and beat someone up. I did it today and it's wonderful, if not productive.

No, I didn't physically beat someone up, but I got to read out a gray haired man with some stupid shit homemade bumper sticker about Obama's socialized health care. Since I had just survived rush hour in Tampa (I hate Tampa) I no longer feared the possibility of armed motorists. Besides, it was over so quickly what with traffic being the way it is.

"You don't mind your Medicare or VA socialized healthcare do you? Hey, idiot! You don't mind your Medicare or VA socialized healthcare do you?"

[noiretextatique]

20. that's their talking point

i've seen it all over the net today. what idiots.

[Laelth]

21. Historically, the left has been right 99% of the time.

That has never stopped conservatives from being wrong.

In the words of the Great Mark Shields, "A conservative is someone who supports liberal policy 20 years after it becomes law."

:dem:

-Laelth

[guitar man]

29. apparently you're not alone

and it's been going on for quite a while ;)

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30624