Public schools used for church services on weekends

[OneGrassRoot]

My boyfriend from Wisconsin is appalled by how so many public schools are used as facilities for church services on Sundays here in NC. Before I left NJ in the 90's, I recall seeing it done there, too.

Without a doubt, when I first saw it I was disgusted at the blatant slap in the face to separation of church and state. I supposed I've grown accustomed to it and (assume/hope) it is generating much-needed funds for the school district, even if a foundational principle is being corrupted in the process.

What are your thoughts? Is this happening across the country? Are there any positives to the practice that could outweigh the obvious negatives?

[FLDCVADem]

1. So long as rents are being paid

I see no problem with it.

[meegbear]

2. Me either ...

being done after school hours and it's not like the students are required to be there.

[Viking12]

3. ...and as long as the same rates are avilable to any other civic group

[FLDCVADem]

9. Absolutelyl

In fact, I think there was SCOTUS ruling on something similar (after school activities). Lamb v. someone? Anyway, I think it said that relgious groups can't be discrimiated against in such situations, if other groups are being permitted access during non-school hours.

[Critters2]

21. Which is not the case here.

The common practice here is to charge churches $1 a year for rent. Where I was in Iowa, the ministerial association used the school auditorium for a religious baccalaureate service and also paid $1 a year. This is a surprisingly common practice.

[Dappleganger]

33. The churches here pay a hefty price

Our previous church paid over $2500/month to rent the building one morning a week.

[Critters2]

35. I live in a red area of a blue state.

So, the righties are real pushy and obnoxious. The schools don't want the trouble they can raise, so they make these special rules for them. I'm sure it's unconstitutional as all hell.


But I've recently learned that DUers don't think we should complain about rightie behavior. So, what ya gonna do?

[Xithras]

45. Many schools have two rates for profit/nonprofit.

My kids school has one rate for churches, community groups, and other nonprofits ($1 for meetings under 90 minutes, $12 per hour after that, $36 max, which pays for the janitor), and another rate for profit enterprises like dances and community auctions ($75 per day, whether you use it for one hour or all day).

[Critters2]

47. AGain, not the case here. Two churches use school buildings

at special rates available only to these churches. All other orgs have much higher rates.

[Xithras]

49. If that's the case, they're breaking the law.

You can't have a dedicated tax rate just for churches. You can have one for nonprofits in general, which covers most churches, but that's as far as you can go.

By offering a dedicated lower rate for churches, they're endorsing religion.

[atreides1]

7. I agree

The services are on the weekend when no school activity is taking place and the "churches" have to pay for use of the space. I went to a Baptist church that held services in my school cafeteria when I was much younger, and it was rented space.

So, I don't see a problem with it.

[Craftsman]

13. Agreed

[slackmaster]

18. That's exactly right

:hi:

[Critters2]

20. So long as the same rent is charged as for other renters, which isn't the case here.

Here in the red part of this state, churches are often charged $1 a year for rent. That way, the school boards can claim they're charging rent, when they're really showing favoritism.

But, I'm sure you're fine with that.

[tammywammy]

23. Agreed n/t

[FSogol]

4. The county next to mine does that. They rent space from the school system and

hold their services in the auditorium. I don't see a problem with it because there are zero Church info/items/signs in the school on the weekdays.

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Most leave the signs (usually one sign) intact 24/7...

not taken down during the weekday, so the students do see that their school is being used for a church service over the weekend.

Seems I'm being hypersensitive about this issuse; no surprise, it IS my trigger issue.

;)

[FSogol]

19. This one doesn't. I checked every Monday when I was there.

There are much worse abuses in the sep of Church and State.

[Xithras]

46. That actually COULD be an issue.

Is the church paying to leave the sign there? If not, the school is illegally promoting their religion. If the church is paying, you should ask what it would take to post your own sign there. Remember that they can't discriminate based on the message. May I suggest:

"Worship Me or I Will Torture You Forever. Have a Nice Day."­ - God.

or

"All religion is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry." - Edgar Allen Poe.

That should get their attention.

[ipaint]

5. Funny how that works...

"it is generating much-needed funds for the school district, even if a foundational principle is being corrupted in the process."

Incremental change.

[el_bryanto]

8. Well that depends on if it is a change

My guess is that the practice of a schoolroom 5 days a week and a church the 7th probably has been going on for a long long time.

Bryant

[FLDCVADem]

11. So long as no favoritism is being shown

then no foundational principle is being corrupted.

[Critters2]

27. What would you do if favoritism is being shown? nt

[tammywammy]

37. You sue n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

12. And it's obviously only my opinion that it's violating ....

a foundational principle.

It's always been a huge trigger issue for me -- the whole separation of church and state thing -- so I perhaps see abuse where there isn't any.

It's why I was curious how others here viewed the practice. :)

[FLDCVADem]

15. Fair enough and

good question!

[BolivarianHero]

30. I'm an atheist, and this is a trigger issue for me...

Most people don't understand why I dislike Harper far more than I do Mulroney

I believe the principle that ought to be applied in this instance is equal access for equal pay.

[Mari333]

6. they do that here so I checked

its legal as long as the building is used on the weekends and its rented out. I did call and get them in hot water for allowing the church sign to stay up during the week, and they removed it.

[OneGrassRoot]

14. Excellent. Thanks! n/t

[Nye Bevan]

16. OK, provided all religions have the same access

including Wiccans, Satanists etc.

And also provided that none of these people leave crucifixes, incense, cauldrons, dead chickens, etc. lying around to be found by the janitor on Monday morning.

[OneGrassRoot]

17. if any of them are Rapture Ready peeps and it happens during the service...

imagine the stuff heathens will find the next day!

Oooooh, maybe there should be a contract, something like finders keepers post-Rapture.

:)

[BolivarianHero]

22. I'm going to plead the fifth on this one...

I live in Ottawa, and the Unitarian-Universalist church I've been to a couple of times has its services in some French public school in the east end. I think it's fine so long as schools ensure equal access to any religious organisation that wishes to use these facilities and so long as they do not discriminate on questions of rental rates.

[Freddie Stubbs]

24. It would be a violation of the Constitution if they excluded religious groups but allowed

non-religious ones to rent or use space. They could solve this 'problem' by just not allowing any outside groups access to their facilities. But most people do not see this as a problem.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. Not as bad as the Bible Club

that the Baptist minister's wife had after school on school property. She was a third grade teacher in the school where I worked, and had been around forever, so she could get away with anything. I felt very uncomfortable when she asked if I had been "saved"--I didn't see the need for "saving" or being "born again" for that matter, so I said yes, though it was obvious she didn't believe I was because I didn't go to her church. This was in southern Illinois in the 80s, btw.

[OneGrassRoot]

26. Wow. Yes, indeed, that would have been a problem situation.

I guess I'll quit cringing every time I see this, as it seems I'm being hypersensitive to the practice.

I'm happy to release any negativity I can; there's plenty of other things to be upset about. ;)

[Critters2]

29. The Supreme Court has ruled that "Bible clubs" can't be kept

from meeting in schools, if they are made up of students of that school. In the eyes of the court, they're no different than French Clubs or Future Farmers. The ones I've seen always bring in some outsider, usually a fundie pastor, to lead the meetings. That seems troubling to me, when the other clubs are advised by faculty members. But schools always argue that they have to allow them to meet on school grounds.

[OneGrassRoot]

31. Geesh....to me, that's messed up. Thanks. :) n/t

[tammywammy]

34. Why is that?

The high school I went to had a Christian club, a "free believing" athiest & agnostic club and an Islamic club. Would the Islamic and athiest/agnostic clubs bother you or just the Christian one? BTW, there would be good events with all three together debating as well.

[OneGrassRoot]

38. Interesting....

That's cool that there were various clubs, for various belief systems. I absolutely believe in freedom of religion, for people to practice their faith -- just not in what, to me, should be a secular environment such as schools, government property, etc.

There's an issue of influence that troubles me. That's why I like the separation of church and state.

I especially don't care for it as PART of the school activities.

That's just me and my own weirdness about the subject. :)

[tammywammy]

41. But they're not part of school activities

All meetings had to be held before or after school or during lunch, never during teaching/instructional time. No one was forced to join any group, and no one was ridiculed for not being involved in any group either.

[OneGrassRoot]

43. That's awesome.

I'm trying to open my perspective about this (see post below), but I have experienced and witnessed too much coercion, even subtle, that I find it troubling for anything religious -- other than studying religious history within the curriculum -- to be occurring on school grounds. It happens, I realize; it's simply something I'm personally not comfortable with.

I think the situation you describe is wonderful...almost ideal to have such freedom and open-minded discussion. I just feel the potential for abuse is there in systems where there isn't such open-mindedness. And, I'm in one of those areas. ;)

[tammywammy]

44. Hell, this was in Arlington, Texas n/t

[Progressive_In_NC]

28. My church hosts AA, the boy scouts, Secular Counseling, and a secular pre-school during the week

And since I help with our financials, I know for a fact we don't charge for the use of the facilities except for the pre-school. To each their own I guess.

[Dappleganger]

32. It happens everywhere here, the churches pay rent

and the schools make extra money which is so desperately needed now. It is in no way forcing or enticing anyone to join that church by having one meet there. I think it's a win-win for both sides.

[ourbluenation]

36. meh. no big deal. n/t

[WillowTree]

39. Conversely, I know of a local church.......

....that allows their nursery and pre-school Sunday school facilities to be used free-of-charge on week days for daycare for children of the teachers from a school for mentally and emotionally handicapped children in the area. The teachers pay a couple of ladies to care for their kids there while they're teaching.

And the Weight Watchers group I used to attend used a meeting room in the basement of a Lutheran church on Tuesday evenings rent-free.

And lots of AA groups meet at churches.

I see no problem whatsoever in either situation, whether rent is being charged or not. It's called being a community.

[OneGrassRoot]

40. Thank you for sharing that....

it is a new perspective on the whole subject, one which I shall try to open up to.

:)

[Lars39]

42. Here, if there's a group who would like to use the cafeteria(not the kitchen),

they have to rent it from the company who got the contract for school lunches. This puts a serious damper on public meetings of any sort.

[dsc]

48. My school is used for Church

I think one requirement is that they have to have a staff member in their church and that gets them a special deal of some sort. I actually don't mind because I can get into my room on a Sunday if I need to.