A $3800 fine? Game over, man. Game over.

[kpete]

A $3800 fine? Game over, man. Game over.

Max Baucus has taken Joe Lieberman's position as the Dem that other Dems most love to hate. (Joe gave up that mantle when he ran as an Independent.) Not only is the public option off the table, Americans who don't buy insurance from the bloodsuckers will face a $3,800 fine.

That's for families. It's less for individuals. A very poor single individual will still have to fork over $750 if he is caught without insurance. And employers aren't even required to provide coverage.

And thus it ends.

Let's face it -- this plan is toast. The moment most Americans hear the phrase "$3,800 fine" they will snarl like badgers with PMS. Baucus, who is firmly in the insurance industry's pocket, has managed to come up with a "compromise" that will infuriate both left and right.

more (plus links):
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2009/09/3800-fine-game-over-man-game-over.html

(kpete: I just heard the $3,800 fine quoted as fact on MSNBC)

[KG]

1. the dems bent over and grabbed their ankles on the health care reform issue

i expected nothing less.

[Echo In Light]

43. No. 'They' knew from the start what was what. Blind supporters are the ones grabbing ankles.

[Winterblues]

2. Obama has made a statement that such a fine is not acceptable.

Obama said there will be no such thing in the final bill.

[librechik]

13. Obama will sign any bill. Period.

They've known for months what was going to be in the bill, including the fine. The trick has been to keep it under cover so the progressives wouldn't find out and spoil the deal before they are trapped into supporting it in conference.

Mission accomplished, even if most of the Congressional Progressives had to pretend not to know.

[yodermon]

15. "Obama will sign any bill. Period." I call bullshit on that. Period.

[tekisui]

71. You think he's going to veto a bill that makes it to his desk?

Not a chance.

I'm not saying he won't try or succeed in keeping it out of the bill. But, he will sign what makes it to his desk. He has one shot at this.

[Winterblues]

16. There has not even been any debate in Congress yet

There is no way anything like this could be kept quiet. Things are going to get interesting when Debate actually begins..I hope those that create Campaign Ads are using their recorders to capture the Republicans on the attack.

[madokie]

18. I call bullshit on that statement

Obama will not sign just any bill

[WI_DEM]

34. No, I don't believe that is true.

[librechik]

42. Well we are about to find out. My reporting has been consistent on this since May.

I know it's a real downer, but Lawrence O'Donnell has the correct stance on this. I am quoting him, in general. And Glenn Greenwald in particular. There has been no attempt (outside lip service) to fight for the public option. Why? My research convinces me that it is because the deal was made months ago behind closed doors, then announced obscurely. (You may remember a news item about Big Phrma agreeing to $80B in price reductions an $150M in advertising for healthcare reform. That was the public face of the agreement wherein Obama decided to toss the public option. )

I have never so hoped to be wrong. But you must have noticed how the "public option" is treated like a stray dog which must be kicked. Why do you suppose that is? Because Obama is so indelibly supportive of it? He barely whispers. If he were really in favor of that, and not the chance to sign a "healthcare reform bill" before the 2010 elections the face of the campaign would be very very different.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. I wouldn't be surprised it that's the truth

I've come to believe that there's a lot more political theater going on in Washington than we'll ever know and that the real decisions are made at private dinner meetings in the homes of the wealthy.

[2Design]

3. if they force the poor who can not afford anything and some are homeless

then you can kiss this goodbye - insurance wins - people lose

[leeroysphitz]

73. Insurance was always going to "win". The only question was by how much. n/t

[liberal N proud]

4. Legalized extortion

That is all a insurance mandate it. It legalizes insurance companies to charge exorbitant ransoms for less than quality service and penalizes the consumer if they can't pay up.


The mafia wouldn't extort people this much.

[tabbycat31]

5. sounds like RomneyCare

[Warpy]

6. You're right, the only thing that will register is the fine

and that will start a firestorm among people who can afford neither fattening the insurance executives nor paying a hefty fine. This is just regurgitated Masscare, something that did cover more people than for profit insurance had but which failed miserably at holding costs down.

The public will rebel against this one, as well they should. Without a public option to keep the insurance boys a little more honest while applying pressure to get them to reduce their appalling administrative costs, this is just a bandaid on a system that has failed miserably.

The public knows full well that being forced to buy a faulty product is not a good idea, and for profit insurance is a faulty product.

I'm glad he decided to get punitive. That will make this one really easy to defeat.

[OHdem10]

7. It was brought up yesterday on CNN.

This is a real sticky wicket. I can understand they need
some means of enforcing the rule that everyone buy Insurance.
I can also see some GOP having a field day with this.

This is the whole problem of trying to do Health Care around
Private insurance.

Single Payer was thrown out of the discussion. PO is on
life support. We are left with Private Insurance Reform.
Everyone must participate or we cannot help the uninsured.
What a mess.

Yes, there will have to be some means of enforcement. The
Fine is the most obvious, thus far.

[Nederland]

8. You're right

It is game over. It's game over because what a huge number of Americans want is totally unrealistic. What too many Americans want is great health care paid for by somebody else. I'm sorry, but that is never going to happen. If you want great health care, you have to expect to pay your fair share. I'm not talking about poor people that can't afford it, I'm talking about average Americans. For them, they should be expected to pay their fair share, and if they don't they should be fined. That's just, but it's not what too many selfish Americans want.

[57_TomCat]

11. I tend to agree...

unrealistic expectations will be the downfall of this entire house of cards.

[Nederland]

12. The tragedy is...

...most people don't know what they are already paying for health care. I'm fairly well informed, and even I have no idea how much my health insurance costs. None. If people saw how much they were actually paying already, they might look at that $3800 fine a bit more realistically.

[57_TomCat]

23. So true.

My out of pocket deductibles right now per year is very close to that amount. The money my employer is paying for their portion exceeds 6K a year. The numbers are a bit daunting.

[T Wolf]

24. Define "paying for" for me because by my calculations, I pay nothing. Insurance thru work, but

that does not come out of my pay. It is a benefit like vacation days and sick time.

Only if you think that your employer would be paying you that amount instead of the insurance premiums are you in any sense paying for work-provided insurance.

And if you are stupid enough to think that your employer would ever pay you those dollars, I have a bridge to sell you.

[lukasahero]

39. You are in a very small minority

if you have 100% company paid health benefits. I pay $82.35/week for my company's insurance. I haven't had a job in 20 years where I didn't contribute to the cost of medical benefits.

Also, as far as companies paying you for dollars they do not spend on your health care, you're wrong there as well. It is hardly the majority but there are companies that do just that. It is most common if you opt out of taking their health insurance because you have coverage elsewhere. (IBM and Microsoft are two examples...)

[T Wolf]

53. But once workers can be forced to buy our own insurance from the corps, they will not

offer that kickback for opting out.

More dollars for employers. More dollars for the insurance gangsters. And less coverage (if that is possible) for the workers/suckers.

Same old story.

[Nederland]

51. Don't be fooled

Your employer included the cost of your health insurance when it offered you a job, and it rightfully is accounted as part of your total compensation package. It couldn't survive if it didn't think that way.

[T Wolf]

52. Right. But if they can drop my coverage, those dollars will not come back to me. Rather, they will

go to the corporate bottom line as executive bonuses, etc.

I will have to use my own money (a net loss for me) to buy the insurance I will be forced to purchase from the insurance gangsters.

[Nederland]

54. Sometimes it does come back to you

IBM and Microsoft are two good examples. More importantly, if a shift in how insurance gets paid for happens, eventually companies will be forced to increase salaries. If they don't, the best people will refuse to work for them and they won't be able to compete. That's just the way things work. Companies didn't use to offer their employees health insurance, but gradually over time it became an expected benefit, at least for white collar jobs.

[Carni]

37. The 3800 is just a FINE for not being insured

It doesn't cover anyone's health care costs--it's strictly a fine on top of whatever they have to pay for medical care.

At least that is what I read yesterday.

[Nederland]

62. Yup

When you break the law, you get fined. You have a problem with that?

[Carni]

74. Getting sick or not being able to afford insurance is breaking the law?

Some of us cannot find jobs currently and are living on what health insurance USED to cost us per month...but feel free to be nasty and spew "personal responisibilty" shit like the best of the right wingers.

[laughingliberal]

17. Paying a fair share is one thing

Paying the kind of premiums the private insurance companies charge is extortion

[Hannah Bell]

48. top 1% takes 25% of national income. what's their "fair share"?

[ejpoeta]

9. yeah, my husband just about went bolistic when he saw this fine.... he was pissed.

and i share his anger, frankly. If they are going to MANDATE buying into this system without even giving us a viable, true public option (which should be opening up medicare to everyone) then wtf with a fine!! I mean, let's just give the insurance companies MORE ways to screw us over. they better not do this. because they are going to LOSE a lot of seats in 2010 if they do.

[sharp_stick]

27. What Fine?

Fuck me, this is beyond pathetic. There isn't even a fucking bill yet for fucks sake and here we have people pretending that they have to be outraged over it.

[ejpoeta]

49. that is one of the things that has been discussed regarding any bill....

max baucus said that is what he wanted to do. we may not have a final bill, but mandates have been part of whatever has been discussed for some time now.

Baucus’ bill does not include a public health insurance option, but features insurance co-operatives to compete with private insurance companies. The $900 billion bill also includes a requirement that individuals have health insurance, or face fines. And it includes a new tax on insurance companies that offer high-cost plans, and a new fee on insurers designed to raise $6 billion starting in 2010 to pay for health reform.

you can bitch about people being upset over it when there is no bill yet, but it is obvious that these idiots want to have a mandate forcing us into the system. no one has to PRETEND to be outraged over it. I AM outraged... because we are having these assholes in congress who are all over the place and doing everything they can to give the insurance companies every advantage and screw us over. They waffle on even a public option and they will give in and end up screwing themselves along with the rest of us because they will get blamed when their attempts to appease the republicans end up getting them NO republican votes but get us a half assed bill that doesn't help anyone but the insurance companies. I want reform.... I want something done.... but all i see happening is these 'representatives' finding every way possible to make things worse than they already are.

[Joanne98]

10. GAME OVER!

[Old and In the Way]

14. And you know that the Republicans will run on this in 2010.

"Look at what the Democrats are doing. They are forcing you to pay for healthcare you don't want. It's another way the Democrats are taking your hard earned money away from you." Of course, that'll be BS, but you can see it coming. I can't think of a worse reform plan than what Baucus is proposing. We'd be better off letting the present system continue until an overwhelming majority "get it' - that single payer public option is the only way to effectively control healthcare costs.

There certainly should be a poison pill in this legislation that, if it doesn't pass, Congressional Reps/Senators will have their public medical coverage revoked and they can join us in the private pool.

[laughingliberal]

19. And they'll be right about part of that

If I'm forced to purchase health care from the criminal private insurance cartels I'm going to be really pissed.

[laughingliberal]

21. I'm all for letting the present system continue until the idiots get it

When 50% of their income is going for health insurance in about 10 years, we'll get reform. I probably won't live to see it but I'm beginning to think that's what it will take for real reform to happen.

[misanthrope]

31. You're exactly right...

...Unfortunately, Americans are so myopic and selfish that the only way this will ever change is for the vast majority of citizens to be screwed by the system in a manner that directly and evidently impacts their pocket.

[satya]

20. What about Medicare for All AND a fine for those who don't have insurance?

So you have three choices:
1. Private insurance
2. Medicare buy-in
3. no insurance, pay the fine

The Medicare premiums would have to be less than the fine (and subsidized where needed) so the risk is spread over a larger, younger, healthier pool. If only high-risk people opt into Medicare, we're doomed.

Payroll tax on everyone (as now) for Medicare, plus additional payroll deduction for those who choose Medicare instead of private ins. If you're not working, you're still covered, but not paying premiums.

[d_b]

22. lol

no way the president signs that shit. A Bush isn't even that fucking stupid.

[sharp_stick]

25. And what bill is that?

I can't seem to find a bill that Obama has signed for any health care reform, perhaps I'm missing it.

I just love this chicken little bullshit, it's all over man, this is what it's gonna be man... Oh shit, I had a dream last night and I'm pretty good at predicting the future in my dreams.

Everyone look at me, no over here, look at me, I'm running around with my arms in the air screaming idiotic blather and I must be paid attention to.

Pathetic attempt.

[AndyA]

26. And I'll bet those "fines" collected go straight to the health insurance companies

to offset their losses because that person didn't have coverage!

Lie down America, spread your legs and be prepared to be raped (again) by corporate America. And the people that we elected to represent our interests in Washington are opening the door and letting them in to do the deed!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[BREMPRO]

28. agreed- the LARGE fine will kill the bill, Unless....

There is a fine in MA for not being insured- but they phased it in- the first year it was only $219, then it went up each year. The problem with the fine is that if we don't have an affordable public option, how can people of lower means expect to afford insurance and pay a hefty fine if they don't purchase it? Maybe this is a back door way to get the public option back on the table as a necessity? Without it, the whole thing falls apart because who is going to trust the insurance industry to lower costs to make a mandate affordable? I think this whole focus on the public option is important, but the lesson of the MA plan (where they now 97% insured) is that cost containment needs to come from other ways and these need to be addressed too.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

29. Are they going to be building debtors prisons? You just can't get blood

from a stone.

[misanthrope]

32. Considering the large for-profit industry that is now our prison system...

...don't be so quick to laugh.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

45. Who's laughing. I was serious. :(

[flyarm]

65. ahhh don't worry remember all those prisons built all over the country under Bush?

well wouldn't it be convenient to incarcerate people saying they are a detriment to others safety because they have no health insurance for health care so they are Exposing others to say..swine flu?????????????

no how easy would that be?????????pretty easy..i would say.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

68. Pretty easy and fly!

:hi: :hug:

[ipaint]

30. Bending the cost curve.

Seems we are just going to have to trust our non elected health insurance representatives to do what is best for american citizens.
Despite the fact that every other industrialized country has managed to do this without negotiating the farm away to include for profit ins. companies here in the land of the free we implicitly trust our overlords to have mercy on our souls and budgets and do the right thing despite all evidence to the contrary.


"Affordable, quality health care for all Americans is a goal we all share. Aetna has sought a leadership role in the health reform discussion, by calling for an individual mandate to get everyone covered more than two years ago, supported by no pre-existing condition or medical underwriting requirements. While these are critically important steps, failure to undertake the difficult work necessary to address the underlying costs of health care will prevent us from ever really achieving affordable, quality health care for all Americans.

That’s why Aetna and the Aetna Foundation are proud to join with Health Affairs, the preeminent journal of health policy, to bring you the September/October issue focused on "Bending the Cost Curve" in health care. The materials presented here are a sampling of the thought-provoking analysis and true innovation going on across the health care industry on the cost side of the equation. By addressing rising costs, we hope to build a strong foundation that will maintain the high-value health system we have today. We have worked closely with the Administration, members of Congress and traditional and non-traditional allies to offer constructive and concrete solutions to help advance meaningful reform. We have embraced a number of critical changes to today’s flawed individual and small group insurance markets, and we have led the charge to simplify processes for health care professionals and patients. The Health Affairs launch event highlighted innovative solutions that are bending the health care cost curve today. Bending the cost curve is the key -- if we don’t make health care more affordable other reforms will have little value. I am very proud of Aetna’s efforts to partner with health care providers to develop innovative solutions that improve quality and reduce costs. When we work together in the health care system, we all win."

http://www.bendingthecostcurve.com/


Get that..."we all win".

So lets let bygones be bygones and trust our upstanding and loyal to a fault fellow citizens who will reign over cost control, our fellow ceo's and shareholders in the for profit medical industry.

I feel better already.

[WI_DEM]

33. So how is someone without any income supposed to buy insurance? that won't fly.

[TK421]

36. Shit...I'm collecting unemployment now ( have been since June )

and that barely gets me by after all my monthly expenses ( rent, food, phone, credit card bills, electric ) You're right...it simply would not fly. I know there are lots of people in my position

[Kansas Wyatt]

46. Instead of an unemployment check, you would get a bill instead.

These alleged representatives have all gone off the deep end and need to be removed immediately, before they completely drive us to death.

The dumb fuckers have no concept of the real world.

[endarkenment]

44. you don't

if you don't have any income you qualify for medicaid.

This is a shitty corrupt piece of shit proposal, but it is not that shitty and corrupt.

[flyarm]

66. ahhh you would not get medicaide as it exists today..it would be a piece of shit! to say it mildly.

n/t

[Carni]

35. If this goes through Obama is a 1 term Pres

And look for a GOP controlled house and senate in our future.

This so called *plan* is a giveaway to the insurance companies that even the Republicans themselves couldn't have pulled off.

[SteelPenguin]

38. Tell you what...

They can impose a $3800 fine per family, if I can buy insurance for my family that actually covers us for $3800 a year.

That's $316.66 a month.

If I can get a plan that provides a plan with
a) No pre-existing conditions,
b) a MAXIMUM $750 a year deductible, and
c) No annual or lifetime maximum, and
d) Prescription drug coverage with a less than $500 annual deductible

...For my whole family, I'd happily accept paying for that insurance for $316.66 a month. Heck i'd pay $400 a month for my family. Heck even $500 a month.

But don't fucking fine me if you can't figure out a way to provide me with reasonably priced, meaningful healthcare.

[Jennicut]

40. This is only a plan out of Baucus's finance committee. Why does anyone

think this will be the plan Obama would sign? Fines without a public option? If he is that stupid to try and pass this piece of garbage and sign it then he would deserve to lose in 2012. Honestly don't think he is that dumb.

[Leftist Agitator]

41. $750?

That's about what I'm making in a month right now, since my hours got cut back...

And just where do they propose that I am going to get $750? I don't have any savings, and every penny I make goes directly into paying bills.

So what happens when I am unable to pony up nearly a thousand dollars? Do I get sentenced to prison for being poor?

Fuck this shit.

[Statistical]

58. Likely will be like any other federal debt.

First they will take your tax return and eventually garnish and future wages.

[leftstreet]

47. 'So why don't you put her in charge?'

[Nederland]

55. Nice (nt)

[TexasObserver]

50. Government as the hand maiden of big business is not health care reform.

Using government to strong arm citizens and make their non actions criminal is an economic Gestapo.

[walldude]

56. ROFLMAO... Yeah come and get me.

If they want to fine me because I can't afford to pay those bloodsuckers they are going to need Moose and Rocco to collect.

[CreekDog]

59. I agree completely

and your phrase "snarl like badgers with PMS" reads like Molly Ivins. :applause:

[deaniac21]

60. Only the ones that don't have it.

[Jkid]

61. Fuck Max Baucus! Guillotine the Bill!

Single Payer or Nothing.

[populistdriven]

63. Fuck Max Baucus! Guillotine the Bill! Single Payer or Nothing!

[Wizard777]

64. I guess if you can't afford insurance or the fine you have to report to the death panel.

[roamer65]

67. Make me pay it.

If I'm without work, you won't see a damn dime of it.

I am dead set against criminalization of the poor.

[ecstatic]

69. Maybe the fine should only take effect if the person ends up needing medical care?

:shrug: In that case, dividing the fine by 12 would show that the fine is actually cheaper than the alternative of having paid for it every month for a year.

[populistdriven]

70. I just called Senator Bill Nelson's office and he supports the Baucus plan not Obama's.

Contact Bill: office locations

Senator Nelson has eight offices throughout Florida and one in Washington, D.C. Bill's schedule.

Washington, D.C.
United States Senate
716 Senate Hart Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Orlando
Landmark Two
225 East Robinson Street, Ste 410
Orlando, Florida 32801
Phone: [phone]
Toll Free in Florida: 1-888-671-4091
Fax: [phone]

Miami-Dade
2925 Salzedo Street
Coral Gables, FL 33134
Phone: [phone] Telephone
Fax: [phone]

Tampa
Sam Gibbons Federal Court House
801 N. Florida Ave., 4th Floor
Tampa, Florida 33602
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

West Palm Beach
500 Australian Avenue Suite 125
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Tallahassee
US Court House Annex
111 North Adams Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32301
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Jacksonville
1301 Riverplace Blvd, Suite 2218
Jacksonville, Florida 32207
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Broward
3416 South University Drive
Davie, FL 33328
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Fort Myers
Justice Center Annex Building
2000 Main Street, Suite 801
Fort Myers, FL 33901
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

[progressivebydesign]

72. President Obama is not going to sign a bill that is designed to self-destruct.

It's all a game.. those guys KNOW that they are derailing things, and some folks are taking the bait.