He parked it.

[WilliamPitt]

My apologies to The Permanently Annoyed And Angry here on DU.

The President explained this situation as it stands.

Love the man or hate him, but if the matter isn't clear after tonight, i.e if you ***still*** don't get it, well...either you're being stupid on purpose, which is bad enough, ot you're just dumb by accident, which is a goddam shame...

...either way, I don't care.

The President spoke tonight, and he parked it.

Period.

End of file.

See you tomorrow.

[dhill926]

1. agreed..............n/t

[azmouse]

2. Amen.

[librechik]

3. Will Pitt,, my brother, I was a huge skeptic, and still am overwhelmed by the work ahead

but he parked a stretch limo parallel in Manhattan during a rainstorm.

[BeatleBoot]

4. Outta da' Park

Upper Deck.

Center Field.

[Pangolin2]

5. Have to agree.

Very disappointed.

[Gregorian]

6. Sometimes compromise is all that will work.

Sometimes everyone has to have a piece of the action in order for any action to occur.

Not too shabby. Even if it's just a move in the right direction.


edit- Oh yeah, and he really does know how to address the nation. It feels so gratifying to have an honest to goodness bright person in that White House.

[givemebackmycountry]

87. Let's not forget that either...

After 8 years of the Monkey taking swings in the box and fouling every pitch off into the stands hitting someone in the teeth.
We got to see someone different tonight.
Our President.
Going deep.

Deep is not a word I associate with the Monkey.

[icnorth]

130. Fouling off every pitch...???

all I can remember is whiff, whiff, whiff. ;-)

[DoBotherMe]

153. My mind wandered this morning on the ride

to work...it was playing scenes from the bush reign of terror, I'm pretty sure the nation is suffering from PTSD after that abuse. Dana ; )

[niceypoo]

237. The problem with compromising with the GOP is....

...they get what they want and still vote no.

[Skink]

7. So we can leave the Tele on mute for the response.

I don't really get why they get a response tonight it wasn't the State of the Union. Although I thought he summed it when he said health care is our deposit problem.

[Gregorian]

8. Well, he's no Bobby Jingle

Jindle.

Or is it just Boobie? Oh hell, I've got to get outside and breath some real air.

[ooglymoogly]

163. wrong place

[WilliamPitt]

11. I'm listening to it now

Spare yourself.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

190. I wondered too...don't remember ever getting a Dem rebuttal....

geee...what a surprise

[Coexist]

9. one for the road.. and then happily off to bed.

[Fading Captain]

10. Sounded Good. But in substance, he abandoned the cause, again

.

[WilliamPitt]

13. Please explain how

I'll wait.

[mzmolly]

37. You'll be waiting a long time

I'm afraid. The "P.A.A.A." are not a fact based group. ;)

[SandWalker1984]

80. If you like the Massachusetts plan, you're gonna love this one!

Mandates. Mandates to buy insurance - ok if a strong, government backed Medicare type public option were available to all.

But that won't happen as Obama's version of public option, per his speech tonight, is small, weak, unfunded and dead on arrival.

Nothing in his pretty speech either about capping premiums charged by the insurance companies either.

Private insurance - you lose.
Can't afford it - fined, you lose.

Dems running for office & expecting big payola from insurance companies -- oh yeah, they win.

[JDPriestly]

102. A state may be able to order you to buy insurance from a private company.

But where in the U.S. Constitution does Congress have the power to order citizens to pay money to a private company for services or for products? Congress has these specific powers under Article I, Section 8.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

I don't think that mandating that people purchase health care insurance from private countries falls under the necessary and proper clause. I could be wrong, but I think that is stretching it. They could argue that they could regulate the insurance that is offered, but I don't think they have the authority to order Americans to buy insurance from private companies.

They could expand Medicare coverage through the 16th Amendment which gives them a certain power to tax incomes:

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

That would permit Congress to have a public option through its power to tax, but I just don't see how the U.S. Constitution authorizes Congress to require people to buy insurance from private companies. The government could tax income to pay for a public option and allow people tax credits to buy into private insurance instead, but that is the only way that I see that this could be done. Just my understanding of the Constitution.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxvi.html

[Grinchie]

93. I'll explain it to you in three words.. "Public Insurance Option"

Which really stands for Mandatory Health Insurance "Just like Mandatory Automobile Insurance"

Or Hoe about ht epart where he states that the Health Care Industry is 1/6th of the entire us Economy. Gosh, I thought the Military was one 60% of spending.


No, mr. Pitt. He may have parked the vehicle, but it's only an Edsel that will be hard to start in the morning.

At least we now have no more need to specualte on how badly he has sold out to the Corporate Interests and his DLC masters., not that many of us haven't already arrived at our Boundary condition months ago.

This just vindicates my predeiction when he lost my support, and voila, here it is, as plain as the nose on his face.

[Fading Captain]

94. Because the substance America needs

is a tax-funded health care plan, even if it's just an option.
There's just no way on earth to insure the working poor and expect that they can pay for it without government help.

We need a leader who will fight for what's right. Not begin every fucking negotiation with a compromise.

Obama spent the entire speech talking in REPUBLICAN terms about marketplaces, and skepticsm of government, and deficits, and consumers.

He sounded embarassed to be a Democrat.

[whathehell]

155. "There's just no way on earth...

to insure the working poor and expect that they can pay for it without govenment help"

..Did you NOT hear him say that the government would "subsidize those who can't afford it"?

[gorfle]

200. Sure. So what this means is this:

..Did you NOT hear him say that the government would "subsidize those who can't afford it"?

What this means is this: I get to continue to pay for my own for-profit private health insurance while also paying for other people's health insurance.

I don't mind paying for other people's insurance, as long as we are all benefiting from the same plan.

All the proposed plan does is create a new welfare project that the people who pay for it can't use.

The good news that came out of his announcement was the removal of the yearly and lifetime caps on treatment, and removal of the ability to drop people who get sick, and the removal of the preexisting condition denial.

The bottom line is this, and the President said as much, as I have said before: The health insurance industry is too huge for the government to destroy it. It would destroy hundreds of billions of dollars of investments and millions of jobs. There is just no way the government is going to start a brand new, lower-cost insurance company that will drive the current insurance industry out of business. If they jumped through hoops to save the auto industry, they are not going to destroy the health insurance industry.

Which is sad. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that the health insurance industry has an annual profit rate of 25%. A government-run, not-for-profit health insurance company would immediately see a 25% decrease in the costs of its services. Such a company would put private health insurance out of business overnight. Oh, sure, there would still be some private health insurance companies out there for well-off people who wanted to buy coverage on top of what the government offered, but most people are simply going to make do with the government-run insurance plan.

Our government probably doesn't have the political ability to destroy the health insurance industry if it wanted to, and for economic reasons it doesn't even want to. So the Public Option is basically fucked. Yeah, there will be a subsidized Public Option for poor people, but it will never be cost-competitive for non-subsidized people to participate in it, and consequently it will never compete against private, for-profit health insurance.

[mistertrickster]

208. Just like the Post office put UPS out of business . . . just like public college U Mass put Harvard

out of business . . . just like AmTrak put Greyhound Bus line out of business etc. etc.

[gorfle]

214. Exactly.

Who rides AmTrak or Greyhound buses? Who goes to public colleges? Not rich people.

Like I said. Private insurance would still exist - but in a far, far, far more limited fashion. It would become something that rich people bought to supplement the government plan.

But 95% of Americans would be using the government plan because it would necessarily be cheaper than a private, for-profit plan, and consequently, 95% of Americans would stop buying private health insurance. This would be absolutely devastating to the for-profit health insurance industry.

[Grinchie]

236. I was money rich at one time, and I rode Amtrak a lot.

I was able to study unencumbered by traffic and road rage, and arrived at work prepared, rejuventaed and ready to be productive.

Now that I have moved on to a Alternate Economy, I have no need for the Rat Race, or Mass Transit and can now focus on working for my own betterment, education and quality of life.

I will never, ever forget the benefits Amtrak supplied for me when I was in a position to be able to take advantage of that underfunded, purposefully neglected, yet extremely efficient way to get from point A to point B.

They tried hard to kill it, but the benefits of Amtrak withstood the onslaught, and it only take a deeper look at the original cost, engineering, and labor it took to enable AMTRAK, and look beyond the lack of maintenance caused by the inexorable reduction of funds.

Amtrak is a joke compared to European Rail, and when one takes notice of this dichotomy, where we constantly boast that America is the Richest nation on Earth, you can see that it's all marketing and hype. America is all Hollywood set dressing, and Americans believe in the myth that everything should look new all the time. This is the dream americans live in. They don't acknowledge that things succumb to normal wear and tear, and need constant maintenance, just like they provide at Disneyland. They touch of paint daily, take out plants and replace them with blooming plants, or they can ignore maintanec, put in Evergreen Junipers, and forget about maintenance an lose satisfied customers.

This is proven, and you can research this. Maintnence and funding go hand in hand, yet Americans are not taught this basic fundamental fact.

Sure, you can drive a car or a train till it drops, but the refurbishment is going to be very expensive when it fails.

Public Colleges have the same capability to teach as the Private Universities.. Nothing stops them but the desire to keep people stupid in line with Corporate ideology of "Just Smart Enough" to operate the machines and do the paperwork, but God forbid they teach them to utilize critical thinking skills or make connections with disparate fields of science, arts, physic, electricity, or chemistry. No No No, you must be a narrowly focused specialist, so we can manipulate the masses without the burden of dealing with facts they learned outside their specialialty, like Money Management, Economics, or Psychological control of Society, or of Pharmacology or Herbal medicines, or of Nutrition.

I find it difficult to believe that the U.S. Government can be so stupid as to believe that people will accept this so called Mandatory "Public Insurance Option" scheme.

The hell with that. He actually expects me, a pacifist to fund two wars of aggression, based on lies, and to pay into a broken health care system that has all the funding and technology for BioElectric Medical research siphoned off to the Military and heald in a Vault somewhere, to be unleashed at some point in the future?

Fuck that shit.

I'll take my chances with Herbal Remedies and leave it at that. I'll take responsibility for my own health care, and avoid unescessary risk, like Skateboarding, or Eating GMO foods, or living in a toxic environment, boambarded by diseased psychopaths like Glenn Beck, or the Mainstream media and all their diseased advertisers.

Until the Government reins in unlabeled GMO food ingredient, there is no way I will allow the Government to call me "Reckless" by not having health insurance. Plus, I have the feeling that even the Subsidies are going to be loaded with invasive bureaucracy, because it appears that the DLC/Obama Administration is a carbon copy of what Clinkton did to Social Services.

[mistertrickster]

207. With all due respect, I didn't hear that. I heard him acknowledging that he's hearing

the other side . . . but not agreeing with them.

On edit--what did we hate about Bush? That he didn't give a damn about us Americans that disagreed with him.

So in response, we now want a President who doesn't give a damn about the people on the other side who don't agree with him?

I don't want to be just like the 'Pukes, but in reverse. I want to be better than that. And so does Obama.

[bread_and_roses]

144. you can't possibly be serious?

I could be unkind, and say such a question reveals that your OP description applies to yourself, however, that would be as childish as the whole "unrec" fad here, nor would it even be honest. I don't believe you're that dense, any more than those of us unwilling to ignore substance for lovely sounding verbiage fit your original description.

I will quote Hydra, here, who summed it up perfectly in five sentences:

"It's the perfect solution for his problem. The looney left demand a public option. The insurance companies demand their right to rob people be protected and expanded.

The solution? Mandatory coverage and a public option you can't sign up for."

Once again, Obama has shown that he will serve the public as long as it does not fundamentally challenge the money or militarism. This is an improvement over the illegetimate little peacock who previously occupied the WH, who would, on principle, never do the right thing, but it is hardly what we worked for.

[kath]

150. "a public option you can't sign up for" - yep, that's what it is.

The Mother of All Sell-outs.

[debbierlus]

157. Obama estimated only 5% of the people would be in it - and he banned those with employer insurance

From participating....

What he did was reduce the public option to something to impotency....

It was abhorrent

[midnight]

222. I believe the cause was suppose to be about reform in the way

Americans access medical treatment, but instead of providing a clear statement of accessibility, Obama introduces the word "exchange" that will give insurance co. another four years to adjust to changes. Plus Obama is introducing an idea that everyone buy insurance from the insurance co. or they will be fined. I don't see this as a choice, and I don't see this as a move toward accessible health treatment.

Obama parked it when he acknowledged Ted Kennedy's understanding of catastrophic illness and how difficult it is to deal with. Add to that struggle, the financial hardship of not having access to the treatment like his children had. That is the cause and it still goes on and it was parked last night, and it needs to be kicked into gear until their is access for everyone.

[The Magistrate]

12. It was A Good Speech, Sir

The program falls short of our full desires, but it when passed, it may well prove the opening edge of a wedge that can be forced open more fully in future.

[dhill926]

19. exactly.......

it's called politics.........

[Solomon]

35. Ahhhh! The sweet odor of wisdom.

We bow in recognition of true wisdom and patience.

[blossomstar]

167. exactly.

[a_random_joel]

82. I agree 100%!

Nice to see you Magistrate. Hope all is well with you.

[grantcart]

100. People here don't really grasp the wedge strategy.

The reason that the Public Option is so important is it gives the people the chance to vote their preference by pocket book.

Even if it is limited and restricted people will demand it and politicians will create barriers to it at their own peril.

[Corgigal]

125. thank you

That is what exactly is going on and I'm sure the private insurance companies know it.

[condoleeza]

181. Glad to see so many others agree with the "wedge" comment, that's how I see it also

[fasttense]

187. Or the crack opened by the wedge

will simply close up yet again, like it has year after year.

In the mean time more people die and go bankrupt from lack of money to pay off the uber wealthy CEOs.

[The Magistrate]

189. We Will Just Have To Keep Up Pressure On the Broad End Of the Wedge, Ma'am

[whoneedstickets]

191. One of the smartest things I've read on DU...

..why is it that so many on this site seem completely insensitive to strategy? Its all tactics, the here and now. This is step 1, the first on a strategic path toward single payer. There is simply no way we can get that far in a single step.

[ProudDad]

196. I don't have your faith in the corporate-funded Congress...

and the "oligarchy" that has bought it lock, stock and barrel.

And soon, when "Citizens United v. the Federal Election Commission (FEC)" is decided against "We the People", every loophole, escape hatch and give-away to the corporate leeches will be exploited to the hilt; to our detriment.

A "free market", if one even existed, has NO PLACE in Health Care.

Obama's version of HR3200 with any "public option" removed by the Senate will make things worse, not better.

But, it's absurd to believe that any humanitarian issue could be resolved in the People's favor by the corporate-funded Federal Government.

My only hope for real health care reform in USAmerica is in California. We could do it the same way Canada did it; single-payer one state (province) at a time.

Although, "C.U. v. FEC" would also allow the forces of evil to overwhelm the People in California too.

So my actual main hope is to work locally; www.transitionus.org as I am.

[The Magistrate]

201. Our Faith In That Institution, Sir, is Probably About Equal....

People are going to have to keep up pressure to get even this through, and certainly to widen it towards what we both seem to agree is the proper arrangement.

Working on a state by state basis may well be a fruitful approach to a solution. The politics of the matter as a national question lend far too much power to regions mostly inhabited by wind, containing remarkably few people. Areas where a decent arrangement is popular take in the overwhelming preponderance of the country's population.

[ProudDad]

203. I suspect, my friend, that we would entirely agree

that any bill that passes must contain the Kucinich Amendment allowing states to go single-payer if they wish...

[The Magistrate]

206. It Is An Excellent Provision, Sir

At this point, very little beyond a toe-hold for a government sponsored insurance plan is make or break for me; that item seems essential for the future to me. It is not clear to me states require Federal let to arrange a state government single-payer arrangement.

[JuniperLea]

224. Exactly...

Good to see I'm not alone... there appear to be many of us here that are content with change in the right direction. This does clear a wide swath of possibilities.

[enlightenment]

14. Bully for you, Will.

If anyone disagrees with your take on the situation, they're either stupid or just dumb. Nice.

If you don't care, why bother saying it? Just needed to share your ego with us this evening?

Shame, as I generally like what you have to say.

[WilliamPitt]

16. Question

Why would you bother?

Seriously.

Is it so important to you that a thread I started get this kind of treatment?

If so, what does that say about you?

I think it says you need a hobby.

Just sayin'.

[WhollyHeretic]

22. Gee, you attack people and then cry foul when they respond.

I'd say you need a hobby but it seems condescension is hobby enough for you.

[WilliamPitt]

24. Where did I attack?

Please explain.

[WhollyHeretic]

29. Umm...did you read your own OP?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[enlightenment]

43. Are you really so sensitive that one negative response in your

thread is worthy of such a comeback? You've been around DU long enough to know that you're not going to receive pure adulation for every word that flows from your fingers. Ninety percent of the time, I enjoy reading what you write - enjoy your analysis and enjoy your snark . . . but not always.

This was different, really. I can't really recall any time that I've seen you so utterly and contemptuously dismiss the views of others while simultaneously suggesting that only your perception of the situation is valid. Not even during the various periods that DU has reached its nadir over the years.

Your post did make me angry, because I have come to expect more from you than I do others on this board.

Clearly, my opinion of you isn't quite justified by the facts, and I won't make that mistake again.

Still, it was surly and you deserve an apology.

I apologize for offending you.

But Will? If you want total adoration, buy a dog.

[WilliamPitt]

56. Nah

Already have a cat. He hates me, too. This is him giving me the finger:



...well, actually, he's giving you the finger.

But he hates me too.

So.

[enlightenment]

57. Pretty moggie!

We have six. Our biggest could probably squish your kitty, but probably wouldn't. Cats have no loyalty . . .

[WilliamPitt]

Hah!

Moggie owners unite!

2 1/2 feet long, 25 lbs.

Dare me to post more pics of my beast.

G'head...dare me...

;)

[enlightenment]

63. Seriously? 25 pounds?

He doesn't look that big! I take it back, he'd squish my baby (he's the youngest)!

Mine is longer (just over 3 feet from tip of nose to tip of tail) and maybe taller (long legged fella), but only 18 pounds or so. He's only three, though, so I suspect he'll put on a few pounds.

The ottoman is 3-1/2 feet by 2 feet, for reference.

Pepys, the cross-eyed cat. And yeah, I could go for some kitty pics amidst all this furor! Dare ya! :)

[WilliamPitt]

67. He's a moggie

...in full:













...HUGE...

[enlightenment]

70. Cat with ATTITUDE.

Love it! Thanks for sharing the pics!

[WilliamPitt]

72. !!

[enlightenment]

73. HAH!

That one should be on the flyleaf of your next book!

[DinahMoeHum]

137. "Talk To The Paw"

:rofl:

[bluescribbler]

141. Cat with Attitiude??

Isn't that redundant?

[theblasmo]

131. Very cute pics

But is that -- ahem -- something in a baggie in pic #6, on the coffee table? Or is this wishful thinking on my part?

I agree with you on the speech. He nailed it. I still disagree with some of the ideas contained in it, but am willing to continue the dialogue with people who want to have actual dialogue.

I also thank Joe Wilson for possibly single-handedly proving to America that all that many Republicans want is to play to the anti-intellectual, dumb-as-a-rock crowd. He'll apologize now, and then brag about it to his loudmouthed constituents. If I had extra money, I'd donate it to his opponent's campaign.

Unless I needed some more of what I think I see in Pic #6. All apologies if it's just the lighting, angle, and sweet, sweet aroma.

[WilliamPitt]

136. It's a Buddha incense holder

But I see why you were confused.

;)

[theblasmo]

140. Many thanks.

It could also have been a bag of catnip from that angle. That would make for one awesomely happy cat (instead of just being incredibly happy).

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

135. Caption: 25 lbs. of cat, .25 ounces of weed

[WilliamPitt]

138. That's a Buddha incense holder

You can see the face at the top of it.

Series.

:)

[kimmerspixelated]

221. Yes, but what's the white powder?

Oh, okay...you just had some french toast, powdered donut, or had the baking soda out to "freshen up the place," for said hot date later...nudge,nudge,wink wink!

[WilliamPitt]

227. Jesus, who do you think I am, HST?

That's ashes from the incense sticks I burned in the incense holder.

[kimmerspixelated]

228. I hope you know I was just kidding!

I knew it wasn't any of those things, but the photo is....interesting for a chance at jabs, and what is HST? And I told you never to call me Jesus... in public...I prefer Mr. Marx!

[WilliamPitt]

235. Hunter S. Thompson

:)

[kimmerspixelated]

257. Well, hell!

You're both great writers! ..Speaking of Hunter...didya know Johnny Depp is filming The Rum Diaries?
He did so well in Fear and Loathing, I can't wait to see him play the younger Hunter.

[Kajsa]

179. The most kicked back kitty

pics ever! That's really saying something
as sleeping 12-14 hours day is their norm.

He's beautiful!

Long time kitty person, here.

I've got one now.

[AlbertCat]

162. Enlightenment... What a beauty!

The tabby points....the blue eyes....


My cat of 19 years just died....I think I'm gonna cry...again..

When I get a new one.... which won't be for a while.... I want a Siamese-like cat, like yours. (Little Einstein was a domestic long hair...grey. Such a good boy!)



BTW... the Speech was great. And it IS politics, something we've done without for 8 years so it looks weird. I loved the "if you don't have ligit ideas...take a hike!" part. He politely called stupid stupid.

[Kajsa]

180. Pepys is very handsome!

:)

And yes, kitties do balance things out.

[MadMaddie]

58. Will you crack me up!!

:rofl:

[WilliamPitt]

60. From a distance

;)

(...and in case you were wondering, that's the Constitution on the wall above 'im...)

[enlightenment]

68. Yes, I can see the size now!

And I figured it was either the Constitution or an Illuminati manuscript . . .

Does he help you type? Or just offer considered commentary?

[DFW]

95. I've known cats like that

Must be the reason we don't have one (well, plus the fact that I'm never home)

[polmaven]

151. Adorable!

Look at the smile on his face!

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

116. I have come to expect it a LONG time ago - massaging Will's EGO is of the UTMOST importance

because he knows BEST, don't you know, and all the rest of us are too IGNORANT to understand his SELF PROCLAIMED "brilliance".

If you can't recall the COUNTLESS other times Will's done this, then you haven't been paying attention.

While I like most of his writings, he can shove his "perfect" ego up his asshole...

[spoony]

120. Maybe he's drunk, again.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mistertrickster]

209. Dude . . . obsessive crackpot-isms say more about the attacker than the attacked. nt

[LaydeeBug]

126. "this kind of treatment" seems to be what your respondent was addressing

Lest I be "stupid" on purpose or by proxy if I happen to disagree with you. :hi:

I wasn't even going to respond to this thread at all until I saw your response here. Go get a hobby? For treatment of an OP? Hon, they ain't the ONLY ones...

[HughMoran]

41. Not so enlightened, really

Seriously, who died and left you as the arbiter of who can post what here?

[TK421]

83. I'm not involved in this conversation...I will tell you that there seems to be quite a few arbiters

here....it's a secret!!!!@E#@ I shouldn't be telling you this or they will slit my throat~~~@@@@!!!

P.M me....these people are WEIRDOS!!!@!@!#$

[thereismore]

148. You do sound stubborn and dumb. Something rubbed your ego the wrong way? nt

[BlooInBloo]

15. I dunno what "parked it" means, but he was on fire.

[WilliamPitt]

17. It means "we agree"

:)

[MnFats]

33. i always thought 'he parked it' meant that he had parked it in the upper deck

as in a baseball game, at a crucual moment.


as in, the bases were loaded andh e might have sent it out of the park, onto the street where kids chase after it.
Is that close, Will?

[BlooInBloo]

34. Ooooh - baseball. That would explain why I'm not familiar with the phrase - thanks!

[Orsino]

134. Ah. I was going to suggest "de-park" as the verb...

...or "extraparkize." :crazy:

[Fire1]

239. Much the same as, "Nailed it." n/t

[MrSlayer]

18. Oratory is his greatest gift.

A fantastic speech. He could fucking sell ice cubes to Eskimos.

[Toasterlad]

46. And His ONLY Gift.

Getting things done...not so much.

[readmoreoften]

74. National Speechmaker. Isn't that the job title?

Oh, hmm. Maybe not. He is a phenomenal actor.

[AlbertCat]

165. Getting things done...not so much.

Wait... I thought it was Congress' job to make laws.

[PHIMG]

20. Yes lets APPLAUD Triangulation! We don't need a base!

Clinton 2.0.

Bad policy.

And he moved more to the right.

[WilliamPitt]

21. Explain

...

[PHIMG]

39. Tort Reform (triangulation), Adding planks from McCain's Healthcare Platform

Saying...oh the public option... well it's only going to cover very very few people...government subsidies into the public option is bad, subsidizing private insurers thru the Exchange is GOOD.

This was triangulation left and right and it's really shocking to see the cult of personality going into over driving swooning over this speech. The last 15 minutes was good. It just shows you that the DLC camp knows that if they are going to pawn off a Rockefeller Republican as the leader of the Democratic party he had better have golden tongue. Clinton, Obama. There you go.

CHANGE WE SHOULD RUN FROM. Bring on a primary challenger in 2012.

MEDICARE FOR ALL NOW! HEALTHCARE NOT INSURANCE.

[countmyvote4real]

90. I agree. n/t

[Grinchie]

96. Welcome to DU, and yes, you noted the obvious in your post.

It seems like Mr. Pitt's honeymoon just ended abruptly tonight, which is pretty obvious when he asks everybody to explain is terse Haiku about Parking it, which can be interpreted as either good or back.

Parked it like "OK, now we know Universal Health Care" never had a chance, and he was OK with that
or "OK, here is what your going to get, and you will like it"

Well, what he parked tonight was the ten ton weight of failure squarely on the DLC's shoulders, and now the Propagandists will come out and convince us the Single Payer is a bad thing, even though it is is national treasure in countries that have Universal Health Crae.

I reall hope Mr. Pitt doesn't turn into a rabid dog, compulsive cheerleader for this scam. So I'll wait till he sleeps on it.

[TorchTheWitch]

110. Exactly - Change We Should RUN From

It's far worse than I ever imagined.


Welcome to DU

[JTFrog]

115. Yes... be afraid.

Be very afraid.

:hide:






:eyes:

[druidity33]

226. i'm slightly offended

by your username.

Witches tend to be better people than "regular" people. Super nice, super caring, super giving... who's the witch and why would you want to torch her?

:shrug:

[AlbertCat]

166. This was triangulation left and right

That's only 2 sides.....

It was also just a speech. No laws were made.

[ooglymoogly]

178. Why are so few getting this?

[mistertrickster]

210. Germany has NO gov't option. Neither does Switzerland. Most European countries

do NOT use the England-Canada single-payer model.

There's more than one way to get good health care reform.

[madinmaryland]

23. +1.

[Fire1]

25. DAMN STRAIGHT, WILLIAM PITT!!! n/t

[redqueen]

26. lol

:thumbsup:

[David Zephyr]

27. I've not heard the speech as I'm stuck at work. My brother called me praising Obama.

And my brother, 70, was a Republican his entire life until two years ago.

[Vincardog]

192. That is because Obama made points a moderate republican could get behind.

Put the PO in a box 4 years away and subsidize the parasitic insurance companies.
That is the change we need to run from

[Jack Rabbit]

28. Amen

!!

[Uzybone]

31. yes indeed

[usregimechange]

32. I agree

[bridgit]

36. I always knew it would be harder than many here at DU ever thought it would be...

[cliffordu]

38. He nailed every doubt I had,

The man is a leader. Apparently letting the R's spew their garbage all this time was a PERFECT prelude to the serious, sober, adult speech he gave.



The purity police will complain about no single payer and no IMMEDIATE public option, but in general, I'm happy.

[PADemD]

121. In a very short time

Millions of Boomers will be using single payer public health care (Medicare).

[BootinUp]

40. yes he did. nt

[nomaco-10]

42. He always does...

he may not say it as quickly and succinctly as some here would like, but he damn sure lands it every time it counts.

[Toasterlad]

44. "Parked It" As In, No Further Progress, Come to a Dead Halt?

I agree.

I guess all the change we were promised was only to feed the meter. He's going to run up quite a tab over the next three years.

[readmoreoften]

75. As in "parked it over a mound of dead bodies"

Anything to be "bipartisan"--he'll sell out anyone in the hopes that FOX News might hate him a little less. Hell, that goes for almost all the Dems.

[SammyWinstonJack]

183. Oh yeah.

:thumbsup:

[texpatriot2004]

45. Brilliant he was. nm

[DearAbby]

47. BINGO!

[DerekG]

48. Yeah. With my friggin foot under the tire.

n/t

[WilliamPitt]

54. Rilly?

[graywarrior]

49. Yes, he parked it right where everyone can see it.

[Fire1]

240. And they still don't get it. n/t

[graywarrior]

244. They're in a trance.

[deaniac21]

50. We will have the public option by May 12.

[mmonk]

51. In English please.

[WilliamPitt]

52. ?

[mmonk]

59. What exactly do you mean?

Count me as a little slow. I suppose you mean he laid it all out?

[WilliamPitt]

61. "In English please."

I was asking you to explain yourself.

:hug:

[mmonk]

62. OK

:hug:

I might could have chosen my words better over my confusion.

[WilliamPitt]

64. Weclome to the culb

...or something.

:hug:

[cmd]

53. Amen

You speak for me.

[SpiralHawk]

55. Amen

The k and the r.

[tsuki]

65. Oh wow, I am so intimidated. You are the smartest man in the room.

We had both insurance for the un-insurable and co-ops in FL. Under Lawton, that is. Jeb Bush got rid of both, and made it illegal to third party negotiate. So we now have 25% increases yearly.

When the Republicons go back into power, they will jettison everything but the $14,000 Corporate HC tax.

[WilliamPitt]

69. No, you're the smartest man in the room.

Take that.

Ha.

[proud patriot]

66. agreed

:-)

[RoyGBiv]

71. Upper Deck

That is all.

[yodermon]

76. 'Kay. Um,Question.

How does a public option compete with employer-based private insurance if those with (maybe shitty) employer-based private insurance are

--get this--

*prohibited from buying into the public option?*

What does the word "compete" even mean, here?

Please correct me on my facts cuz I really hope I'm missing something.

[Dr.Phool]

78. The devil's gonna be in the details.

I feel better now, than I did before the speech. But, I'll give him a chance to win me back.

[WatchWhatISay]

98. That IS the critical question

$15000 annual premiums, $5000 deductible per person for first 2 people in a 3 person family (so $10,000 potential out of pocket, not including copays), formulary prescription plan that means top tier meds can be $75, if they are covered, and no telling what they wouldn't pay for, as it gets worse each year. This is all via the employers plan but employer doesn't pay a dime of it, I pay all premiums (small company with less than 50 employees).

So I would get no option to get out?

[SandWalker1984]

77. He parked it - on top of real reform and killed it!

Wow, don't know what speech you all were listening to tonight.

Yes, I heard the pretty parts too.

But I also heard:

Mandates - to buy private, corporate insurance because
the public option has been watered down into a possible, maybe, no government help or subsidies to get it up and running, only for people currently without insurance plan. WTF???

Nothing about capping or regulating what insurance companies can charge for premiums.

Subsidies to help you purchase private insurance but nothing for a public option - it has to pay it's own way.

So the big greedy corporations get millions of new victims, competition will be DOA.

Better they never attempted reform than to pass crap like that.

I expected better from Obama.

I refuse to give up the fight for an affordable public Medicare-type option with access to everyone.

[AsahinaKimi]

79. Obama parked it.

Going, going ..gone!


found this cute picture of him..heh! (^ _^ )

[Romulox]

81. "Parked it" wasn't the task. We needed MOVEMENT. nt

[nolabear]

84. Healthcare for Americans. Our right, our gift, our legacy.

And I do believe Barack Obama will see that through.

[omega minimo]

85. SNAFU or Corporate Government?

"The President explained this situation as it stands."

[Hatchling]

86. Yeah, in a no parking zone.

And I sure didn't appreciate his mis-characterization of what reform has always been about:

"To my progressive friends, I would remind you that for decades, the driving idea behind reform has been to end insurance company abuses and make coverage affordable for those without it. The public option is only a means to that end - and we should remain open to other ideas that accomplish our ultimate goal."

This progressive doesn't think so.

[TheKentuckian]

89. I don't grasp that. Are you saying method trumps result?

While, I remain unaware of another lever to control the insurance companies that does not mean that the public option is the only one. His statement was utterly rational and truly committed to the spirit of the idea, while having the common sense to explore all avenues and not being married to ideology over outcome.

The result is what counts here. The goals are to make health care more affordable and accessible. I don't see how that very logical statement is twisted into "mis-characterization" of what reform is about.

[ShortnFiery]

91. Yes, it was IMO, condescension. But Maxine Waters, et. al., ate it up.

Damn! Why can't more liberals see through the ruse to realize this will be just another GIFT to the large insurance companies? :(

[change_notfinetuning]

101. mis-characterization indeed! n/t

[Beregond2]

88. Thank you.

An adult voice among all the childish whiners.

[Autonomy]

92. It still remains to be seen

what will come out of all this. I recc'd the post anyway bc it was a good speech.

[DFW]

97. It was at 2 AM here, and I had to get up at 4:45 AM (day job)

So I missed it. I'm sure it'll be on the web somewhere so I can form my own conclusion.

I'm well aware of his oratory skills, and as a child of DC way back when, I know you
never get everything you want. But this is not a question of want, but of need, so I'll
probably cheer with the optimists when I hear it, and sulk with the pessimists when I
digest it.

Even so, the longest journey starts with a single step, and it's a step no one in Washington
has seemed willing to take so far. If it starts here, so much the better. I just hope Congress
knows how many in dire need will be crushed by despair because help came too late. I know some
of them do. It's the "you lie" crowd that will go down kicking and screaming before they cede
so much as a band-aid to those who can't afford one.

[change_notfinetuning]

99. More like stole a base than parked it. You can't win a chess game by

only taking pawns.

Direction of insurance stocks will be a better judge of whether he parked it, and I bet they'll go up.

[demwing]

103. Typical William Pitt

"I have spoken. If you don't agree, you are stupid. End of discussion"

Jesus man, for years you've used the same tactic on this board. Get some new material.

Perhaps there are people here who were more concerned with the content than with the clarity.

I happen to have watched the speech from a hospital room, while I was waiting to be treated, without insurance, wondering how I would pay my bill. A unique perspective, I'm guessing. I don't think the President parked it. Yes, he was more clear on his goals than he has been previously, but I didn't like what I heard about mandatory buy in, about single payer, or about the 888 lb gorilla - the public option.

I was looking for bold leadership. What I found was a focus on compromise.

I was hoping for change. What I heard was that I should change my expectations.

I was prepared for the President to challenge me to fight for a cause in which I believed, instead the President challenged my beliefs about his ability to see this issue from my perspective.

I honestly think Obama is a good man, but I think he overestimates the good in his political opponents.

But I don't see it the way you do, therefore, in your esteemed opinion, I'm a rube. Thanks again Pitt. You always add perspective.

[AusDem]

105. I think the conundrum lies in the fact that....

Obama promised change, yes. but that means so many different things to everyone.

He did also say that he wanted to change the way "the game" is played in Washington. Less partisanship, you know the whole bit about "not a president for a blue america, etc, etc"

so maybe he's trying to see that promise through as well, ie wanting to be a president for the 46% of people that voted for the other guy (and *shudder* gal). Of course, a large subset of that 46% is giving him nothing but hatred and vitriol in return, but he's still trying, and today he put them in their place.

Its sad that the line that he had to draw was "I will not negotiate with you if you lie about my proposal", but at least it was a forceful line, with plenty of dotted lines that, while they didn't go close to a strong public option, are still somewhat meaningful in the sense of a reform.

Agree with you however that OP's attitude is mucho grating, but hey, whatever floats your boat i guess.

[TommyPaine]

107. Obama (and other Dems) overestimate their political opponents in every way

And now is not the time for bipartisanship (except for Olympia Snowe; we’ll gladly take her). It's not the time for compromise. It's time for serious health care reform that benefits all Americans, reform that doesn't let anyone go bankrupt from medical bills. Health is a condition, not a commodity.

Obama gave a swell speech tonight, but it was too little, too late, and too toothless. I used to call Clinton "The Great Compromiser" but that title may eventually suit Obama better. I still like him and I'm glad he's our president, but he's just too nice for the job--not the fighter we so desperately need.

[Raster]

217. This is the post that should have the multiple recommendations.

Thank you, demwing.

[demwing]

255. Thank YOU Raster

I meant every word

[Control-Z]

104. Someone had to say it.

Thank you. And frankly, he made it clear enough for even the intentionally and accidentally stupid to understand. That was part of the brilliance of his speech, imo.

[whathehell]

113. Agreed. I'm not getting all of the nay-sayers here today.

The best system WOULD be Single Payer or "Medicare for All"...But hey?..Did you think he'd be able to turn this place into Europe overnight?.

As someone said yesterday, even in the SIXTIES, that legendary era of change which I do remember, nothing was done all at once..It was done incrementally....I think Obama would LIKE to change the system "overnight", but it's not politically possible.

In consideration of the fact that Capitalism isn't going away tomorrow, who cares if the Insurance Companies make money?...They've been STOPPED from their two greates sins: Denying coverage for pre-existing conditions and dropping people (recisssion) when they get sick.

Mandating the buying of insurance is upsetting people who ask "what if people can't afford to pay for it"?...Did he not say that those folks will be Subsidized?

All things considered, I think he hit it out of the park..and I'm proud to call him my president.

[Bluenorthwest]

132. Ok, on your subsidies, please explain

how those families who are not approved by the Faith Based Office will be treated? As the families that they are, or as the legal strangers those religionist bigots insist we be treated as?
Is my family a family, or strangers, under this law you adore so much? How will those subsidies work? Via tax law, and very specifically they use the word 'spouse' while defending DOMA at the same time.

[whathehell]

139. I didn't write the bill, or say I "adored" it..

So, they are not, in fact, "my" subsidies.:eyes:

I know of a number of people (myself included) who get private insurance as a "domestice partner".

I'm against DOMA, but this is a separate, if related, issue.

[mistertrickster]

213. Actually, England is the only European country I've heard of with single-payer.

Maybe Sweden or Norway has single payer.

France doesn't, and they're ranked best in the world. Germany-Switz-Austria have tightly regulated PRIVATE health care insurance . . . they don't even have a "gov't option."

[Hannah Bell]

106. We already have a public option - Medicare. We don't need no frigging "exchanges,"

nor multiple "co-ops", & bs on defunding medicare to pay for them.

[bluestateboomer]

108. I have always loved Will's writing.

And the president gave a great speech. I watched all of it and it seems to me having started from a compromised position, taking single payer off the table at the beginning, what we wind up with is a gift to the insurance companies. Why do we have to guarantee business to these companies? Think of all the hoops other firms have to jump through in order to get government help.

What we end up with is a bunch of complicated rules and not much help for us for another four years. I'll keep calling my congress critters and hoping for the best, but I am not optimistic about what will come out of this round.

Maybe it will turn out like Tygrbright says: What-ifs and Worst Cases: We Still Win (Eventually)
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TygrBright/145
There's still a tough slog ahead.


:scared: :shrug: :eyes:

[lamp_shade]

109. Yup. Parked.

[stlsaxman]

111. yup- parked it in the fire lane of a schoolhouse in the middle of a fire.

[underpants]

112. *TttOUNK!*

Yes he did

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=479593&mesg_id=479593

[DrZeeLit]

114. Gosh I love it when you're verbose, Pitt.

Actually, I have a secret crush on you and LOVE anything you write.
Period.
End of file.
HOPE to see you tomorrow.

[Raster]

122. Did he park that in 24 business hours, Will, or just regular hours?

[SammyWinstonJack]

184. .

:evilgrin:

[deacon]

123. He takes the high road as the GOP continues to look like school kids in an adult forum. n/t

[Orwellian_Ghost]

124. Parked it because the vehicle is totaled

The system is thoroughly corrupted and nothing changed by some half-baked rhetoric. The people are fucked once again. Put the sports cliche's and preemptive slurs down and get with reality.

[KG]

127. another fine speech.

so what?

[Bluenorthwest]

128. What a nasty attitude

And is this 'parked it' a sports thing? Does it mean you liked, or did not like the speech?

Big talk in my town of late about the how trash talk and sports culture leads to violence and harmed lives. This is such a great example of how that works. And how the mentality that reduces the most serious of human subjects to a lexicon of games and competition as a way of avoiding mature discussions. Some sports hero smashed some other sports hero in the face last week, after the one said something to the other. So we are all talking about the whys and whats of that culture and the language that surrounds and defines it.
Your post will be a useful window to many here, about how sport culture bleeds over and informs other vital, non game, areas of actual life, and if there are unwanted repercussions from that cross use of lexicon and attitude. So in an odd way, thanks.

[ecstatic]

129. I haven't watched it yet, but I'm sure I'll agree

when I pull it up on the DVR!

[LynneSin]

133. But....but... but... buuttttt..... Where's the Magic Wand that Obama promised to wave....

and solve all the country's problems in 5 minutes after inauguration

:eyes:

[whathehell]

143. Bingo!

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

145. (gives emo tantrum child a cookie)

[Raster]

161. The "emo tantrum child" was right. The OP is condescending.

Keep your cookie.

[Fire1]

241. but correct. n/t

[Raster]

245. In. Your. Opinion.

[Fire1]

259. And that's all that matters in my post. n/t

[TransitJohn]

146. No he didn't

He lost progressives for the rest of his hopefully 7 years remaining.

[Owl]

147. He did a masterful job. Loved it.

[Postman]

149. The "Public Option" is a misnomer and a deception....

According to his own website the Public Option will only be available to those who don't have insurance.

It is not an "option" for me, who is not happy with the insurance I have, to choose the "public option"

This is not the healthcare reform I voted for.

It should have been "Medicare For All" not the crap they have in Massachusetts - that is nothing more than a big fat wet kiss to the Health Insurance Industry.

This is reform that favors the Health Insurance Industry.

[kath]

172. Yep - if what your employer makes available is a crappy plan, you are STUCK with that crappy plan.

This is NOT meaningful healthcare reform. RomneyCare SUCKS ASS.

[walldude]

152. What's up with the flamebait?

Anyone who disagrees with you is stupid? Why do I get the feeling that you have some kind of health insurance and access to health care? Did you ever stop to think that maybe people who don't agree with you and who are "Permanently Annoyed And Angry here on DU" might be angry because they don't have 4 years to wait for a public option? Maybe from another persons perspective, maybe someone with kids who doesn't have any coverage might see the situation a bit differently than you?

Was it really necessary to label anyone who disagrees stupid? Could you not have made your point without insulting people who might be in a bit more dire straights than you are? Not to mention the fact that when someone called you on your superior attitude you pulled the ultimate Republican response and claimed you didn't attack anyone when the attack was plain as day on the same page?

You are a well respected and well liked DU'er, there was no need to go all Joe Wilson on people.

[Postman]

154. Hey genius, is Dennis Kucinich stupid on purpose or just dumb?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x368612

[Supply Side Jesus]

238. Hey...

If the great Will Pitt says so.....:eyes:

[spanone]

156. yes he did...into the strip mall two blocks from the ball park

[Umbral]

158. Some people do love a good speech or a good sermon...

Others like their information free from emotional taint.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

159. what did he park, and more importantly, where's my car, dude?

The president FINALLY showed some fire, just what most Americans have been waiting for.

It also sends a strong signal to the moderates in the Democratic side, and sends an even stronger signal to the Blue rabid Dog group.

Best of all, it was like a 2x4 to the skulls of of the Grassleys of the GOP.

[LondonReign2]

160. If by parked it you mean...

... pulled the car into the garage and turned the key off, then yeah.

Hit it out of the park? Not by any stretch of the imagination.

[ooglymoogly]

175. truly.

[George II]

164. Thanks...I agree with you 100%...

...and I can't believe all they naysayers here today (and sadly every day) who can look out the window at a sunny day and complain that there's a risk of melanoma!

You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but some DUers none of the time!

How many Joe Wilsons are there around here?

[ooglymoogly]

168. The devil is in the details.

I carefully listened to the speech twice and I am not even slightly calmed that there is a good outcome ahead.
What I heard was, as long as we pay off the insurance giants enough,(a forced, by law, vastly increased client pool boondoggle) we might get a few malleable off the record promises that will inevitably become, a take everything valuable to the corps and discard anything onerous to the them as has, for the last 40 plus years, been the case. The carefully parsed mention of the public option at the end of his speech left me clapping; Soon to come to the reality that, that, will never be truly fought for nor will it ever come to pass in this presidency. If there was ever a time when universal health care could have passed it is now; But like all things good, it has to be fought very hard for and, by this president, it has not and that is putting it mildly. This speech was perfectly and beautifully crafted to calm the waters in order that the insidious Baucus bill, written by the insurance giants, can sail through congress with a few waffling crumbs tacked on to mollify the rabble.

[Douglas Carpenter]

169. indeed!!

[Buzz Clik]

170. Late to the party, but K&R!

[colsohlibgal]

171. Not All That Much

You're usually spot on Mr. Pitt but not this time. Mr. Obama as usual spoke masterfully - and had some nice rules he proposed.

To begin with, the bar should be super high in light of the fact he's already signed off on allowing drug companies to continue to shake us all down. That seems to have been put out of mind but will cost us all a ton.

And who really has an option? Plus, didn't the main option sound straight out of Kent Conrad's play book?

Plus the Insurance companies, the ones who have drained us for years, killed people, etc - they make out pretty good on this, people and employers are mandated to keep funneling huge chunks of cash to them. Our companies will continue to operate at a disadvantage since companies in other countries aren't burdened with covering their employees. More than anyone I imagine the insurance giants feel a great sigh of relief.

I'm also beyond sick of the " well if we didn't have this screwed up system in place already" excuse. He and other dems also seemed to delight in saying no to coverage for undocumented immigrants. I'm not sure how moral that is but beyond that people will be sending their kids to the same schools as these people, do they want little Susie to pick up something from these other kids?

Now maybe he can get rules in to make the blood suckers play a little more nicely. We'll see but the devil is always in the details. What does Obama think is affordable? Affordable for one is not affordable for another. A limit on out of pocket maximums is nice but just what is that number? Is it really that or is it that plus deductible? When all is said and done we might get a little protection from the insurance folks but they'll continue to be what they are and will continue to laugh all the way to the bank.

[Toasterlad]

173. Interesting.

It's totally cool to characterize Obama's critics as permanently annoyed and angry, but characterizing Obama's cheerleaders as sheep will get your thread locked. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. This IS Democratic Underground, not Guy Who Will Actually Bring Meaningful Change to America Underground.

[jgraz]

174. Yes, it's so important that he talked pretty and zinged the Repugs.

Y'know, I think our debate team has a shot at State this year.

[Raster]

176. Thank you, Sir!

What did we get except another lovely speech? Seriously?

[FlaGatorJD]

177. Agreed . . . n/t.

[kestrel91316]

182. I had to do a veterinary focus group thing and missed the entire speech.

[DevonRex]

185. Yes He Did!!! nt

[jus_the_facts]

186. Derek Jeter was the ONLY one to PARK IT last night......

Period.

You aren't nor have you ever been poor...so none of this will impact YOU or yours.

Are you being obtuse by accident? No.

The only place Obama parked it is at the feet of the insurance industry and THAT is a goddamn shame.

[Gregorian]

188. It's a tough one.

On one hand I'm completely with Dennis Kucinich. On the other hand, this is capitalism. That's what this comes down to. Within the context of capitalism, Obama's speech was brilliant. Not because what he's doing is good, but because it will actually happen.

I'm sick of this crap. I want Medicare for all. I'm sick of executives and corporations grabbing the money and power. But the reality is we're stuck in this capitalist machine.

Short of a revolution, which may be worse than capitalism itself, we're getting something better than we'd have ever gotten through a conservative agenda.

[ProudDad]

197. You should read the fine print again, my friend - We the People get nothing! (n/t)

[ProudDad]

193. Soon, USAmerika will achieve the pure Fascist state

Mussolini would blush...

My response soliciting my take on the speech...

========================================

You're assuming that there will ANY kind of "public option"? Unless Barack is ready to threaten the veto pen if there is no "public option", there will be NO public option.

And he won't.

It also sounded like he threw a couple of pieces of red meat toward and then undercut the Progressive Caucus. Very clever...

My primary beef is that he didn't touch the essential issue (except in passing without mentioning the elephant in the room); the obvious USAmerican selfish, greedy core that can't stand the idea of someone "getting something I'm not", especially poor people (too lazy to work), undocumented immigrants (illegals) and other despised humans.

And it would have been so easy. He could have put it into focus for the ignorant by quoting from an article I read recently (I paraphrase):

"So you complain about paying premiums all your life and not getting it all back in the form of Health Care. You think that when someone else 'gets' more out of the system than they put in you have been cheated. HEY, YOU WON! THEY LOST, YOU IDIOT! You were healthy, they got sick or injured!"

The key question, Barack, is "can we agree that Health Care is part of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and that all persons residing in the United States deserve complete, comprehensive access to Quality Health Care?

Health Care for All should be an axiom, a no-brainer, an "of course!" premise -- but it obviously isn't.

There was a large block of people in that audience, dems and republicans who do not believe that essential truth. And until there's a strong plurality who believes it to their core, who internalizes the desire to cover everyone as the civilized world has already done, the forces of evil and profit will continue to win here in the belly of the beast.

He temporarily refocused the attention on PolicyWonkSpeak instead of the mindless screaming of the past month or so but this will die down since he didn't make an argument for nor a good enough emotional connection to my point above to begin a process that could result in most people saying, "Hell, why not health care for everyone. That just sounds right!"

I don't have any real hope for this year's "effort". I believe that again (see Medicare Part D), it will be a give-away to the worst of the worst, the insurance corporations and drug companies. And more people will die needlessly, through neglect and hatred and fear, and there will be no substantive change for the better in the USAmerican system of 'sick care'.

I wouldn't even applaud forcing the insurance companies to accept people with pre-existing conditions and be barred from removing people who get sick from their rolls if I were you. They'll just jack up the premiums for everyone to cover expenses and a health, constantly growing profit for shareholders (and them selves). That's what they do. Corporations are psychopaths in pursuit of profits for their shareholders.

This whole "health care debate" is further proof that the USAmerican attempt at democracy has been highjacked...finally and for good.

==============================================================

And, here's another MAIN indication that the health insurance reform "debate" has been highjacked by the forces of Evil:

"If the Court reverses Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce and the relevant part of McConnell v. FEC, critics say corporate wealth will re-enter and dominate campaigns in ways that have not been seen in more than a century.

“Since the dawn of the Republic, the Court has recognized that corporations are artificial entities that enjoy unique advantages and must therefore be subject to greater government oversight,” said Doug Kendall of the Constitutional Accountability Center. “If the Court turns its back on this constitutional text and history, it will blatantly disregard the will of the people and unleash corporate influence on elections.”

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=22052

"The Obama administration will defend the restraints on the grounds that corporations are different from individuals. “Corporations are artificial persons endowed by the government with significant special advantages that no natural person possesses,’’ solicitor general (and former Harvard Law School dean) Elena Kagan has written.

"She’s right, because a publicly traded business corporation, driven to maximize profits by market competition and its own charter, can’t rise above that mission any more than it can dance nude. Corporations aren’t “voluntary associations’’ with republican intentions, as Justice Antonin Scalia claims; in a civic sense, they’re mindless, because their shareholders change with every stock-price fluctuation.

"Even a “nonprofit’’ corporation like Citizens United doesn’t deliberate openly with Americans as fellow citizens; it exists only to advance a business agenda in politics and is closed to persuasion."

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/09/05/corporate_free_speech_since_when/

============================================

Even with the weak "protections" of current campaign finance law the deep, deep pockets filled with corporate money dominated the "debate" and own the "back rooms" of the corporate-funded Congress and White House.

When this court, packed with pro-corporate ideologues, rules in the matter of "Citizens United v. the Federal Election Commission (FEC)", the final nail will have been driven home in the coffin of the USAmerican experiment in Popular Democracy.

This decision will open the floodgates of corporate (psychopath) money taken from OUR pockets with nearly every purchase we make, which will be used against our own best interests and allow the final balloon payment for the purchase of our institutions of government and regulation.

You think the last twenty-eight years were bad?

Well folks, you ain't seen nothing yet!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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There is hope but only by disengaging from their system...

Relocalize, don't feed the beast.

www.transitionus.org
http://www.attractionretreat.org/CFOL/index.html

[Desertrose]

195. K&R your post ProudDad!

You nailed it!

[mistertrickster]

231. Substitute "socialist" for your "fascist," and you sound just like the wack-o right-wing.

Must we be simply mirror images of everything that's wrong with them?

[ProudDad]

261. The difference is that they lie

I revere and hold tightly to the Truth, supported by evidence and science.

They rely on their god-myths and manufactured "facts" pulled from their nether regions...

That's a major difference.

[proud patriot]

243. while I agree with your passion and I know you are correct Dad

will this not make it possible for simple improvements in my
day to day life with Tyler ?

I'm hopeful that with this reform future steps will be possible for
a more TRUE reform . sort of a step by step process .

Trish

[ProudDad]

262. They probably won't dare mess with "the kids"

SCHIP is probably safe...

[bridgit]

253. Lines have already been blurred, *pure* Fascism comes aloof in denim & blood diamonds & these guys

are the stench from 3 valleys over http://www.narlo.org but you'll need to go to the '18 principles' to discover just how insanely ignorant & disassociated Facism truly is:

15. Funding of all government programs local, state and federal, (except the military) should be frozen in place for five full years (unless we are at war) in order to assess where we really are fiscally and maybe catch up with revenues, or find out what are the real priorities. Waste, fraud, abuse and corruption should be investigated and perpetrators vigorously punished to send a strong message that these abuses will not be tolerated.

[Cleita]

194. It's crystal clear. n/t

[butterfly77]

198. Thank you ,..

as far as I was concerned he had explained it well enough at some of those townhalls and before that. The problem is that the MEDIA jumps on television everytime he makes a speech or comment and turns it all the way around and portrays it as though they have been in on meetings and that if a republicon says no public option then that is it...

[ProudDad]

199. If you accept a corporate-capitalist

pro-business, "free market cures all ills" frame...

Then yes, he "parked it" for the forces of the status-quo here in the USAmerikan Empire...

However, if one believes in the basic rights and dignities of every person, if one believes that it's a moral outrage that every person residing in USAmerica doesn't have access to Quality Health Care and still won't after the corporate-funded sausage factory that is Congress and the White House get through with this "process"...

Than he made a beautiful, from the heels, home-run swing at ... Strike Three!

[colsohlibgal]

204. Amen

Yes, ProudDad, you can only park it when you hit the ball. Serious rock solid proof that the right is out of their mind is when they call Obama a socialist. More than anything he's republican lite like Bubba - and that's just not going to get it done.

I was just flabbergasted when he said the solution was to "build on a system that works" - meaning US health care. Works? Really? Well I guess it works for insurance company executives, so it's not a flat out lie LOL. If Obama really believes that he is delusional.

I'm just at a surreal place right now, because I'm even more befuddled by so many liberals gushing over this speech. The crafting and delivery, yes. The actual content....no way.

[mistertrickster]

211. John EDWARDS?! Are you kidding me? You might want to google "sleazy affair" and see what pops up.

nt

[felinetta]

202. I am proud that I voted for Pres. Obama and I'm a huge liberal.

[mistertrickster]

205. My thoughts exactly. Good bye "cautious pragmatist," hello "FDR!"

He didn't hedge . . . he didn't waffle.

He drew a line in the sand and said, "Here's where we stand and fight. Now is the time. This is the place."

Obama staked it all on health care reform.

To those who claim that Obama hesitates to follow through on "change we can believe in," you've been proven wrong.

[Raster]

215. The Audacity of NOPE.

[mistertrickster]

219. Yup, why win the lottery? You'd just have to pay taxes on it. The gloom and doom around this place

is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

[dorkulon]

212. Mandatory private insurance is the industry's wet dream.

This is Medicare part D all over again.

[Raster]

216. It won't be long until they tack a rider onto the looming legislation that makes it illegal

for the government to negotiate for lower prices in prescriptions, just like they did during the cheney*/bush* "reform" of Medicare.

[mistertrickster]

220. And it won't be long until we all are DEAD. Why bother to go on living . . . nt

[Raster]

247. Tell ya what, you first.

[mistertrickster]

218. "The Permanently Annoyed And Angry"

Ain't it the truth.

I'm surprised that nobody attacked Will's post because to park it is a baseball reference, and there must be some disabled person somewhere whose feelings were hurt because he or she can't play baseball . . .

Folks, improvements in this imperfect world of ours are rarely brought about by ideological purists. Prohibition was the result of ideologues. The Iraq War was the result of ideologues. Dogmatism is dogmatism whether it is from the right or the left, and dogmatism is the opposite of rational thought.

[Hannah Bell]

252. they're always brought by ideologues. who rarely get credited, because

they're usually murdered, jailed or impoverished.

30 years of all you "practical" people compromising & selling out, & the result? no jobs, no money, no healthcare, no future, & the continuing privatization of everything that isn't bolted down.

[Raster]

254. Compromise = BOHICA

Bend Over Here It Comes Again

[Mythsaje]

223. I love the sound of selling out in the morning...

But it's pretty much what I expected, so no big shakes here. He might as well have come out saying "We have determined that our best choice is to preserve the life of the parasite. Sorry about the patient."

It was chickenshit. Again, not surprised.

Paint me as willfully stupid. I don't give a fuck. I know the feeling of being robbed, of suffering taxation without adequate representation, all too well these days. The loudest crazies in the country are better represented than any of us decent folks, but please continue making excuses for the failure.

We were fucked the minute they took single payer off the table. The compromise should've been the public option. Instead it's the weakest shit they could find. And still they'll be attacked for it. They approached their opponents on bended knee and got pissed all over.

This is truly pathetic. We could tap a couple cemeteries and generate power for generations by the force of both Roosevelts spinning in their graves.

The irony is that the new rules benefit me and my wife greatly, given our insurance and our situation. But I was never in the game for the two of us. I was in it for everyone else.

Without a strong public option, individual mandates are robbery. Stealing from the poor to give to the rich. The Democrats sign on to the Republican reverse Robin Hood initiative.

What--we should cheer?

I'll pass.

[mistertrickster]

229. You want single-payer? Move to Canada. A lot of countries around the world

have health care that's better than Canada's, and it's NOT SINGLE PAYER.

Cf., Germany-Austria-Switzerland

But single payer is easy . . . gov't just runs the whole show, so the ideologues love it. Never mind that single payer is what killed health care reform several times in the past.

[Mythsaje]

232. I would've liked single payer

but I wouldn't have bitched at a strong public option. The problem is they didn't bother to negotiate. They pissed any advantage away and blame US for expecting them to show a spine.

[Mixopterus]

233. Heh

Germany, Austria, and Switzerland's healthcare is heavily regulated. I saw no guarantees that ours would undergo an equally rigorous regulatory approach.

[Mythsaje]

234. More along the lines of:

"Stop--or I'll yell stop again!"

[Hannah Bell]

256. america, love it or leave it. move to one of them there socialist countries

if you like commie health care nyah nyah

[mistertrickster]

258. Do you really think that's what I was saying? C'mon.

Crap in one hand and wait for single payer in the other.

See which one happens first . . .

[rug]

225. , got out and handed the keys to the insurance companies.

[colsohlibgal]

230. Why?

Why do we need a for profit health insurance system? Other countries don't allow this. Our goal as consumers is to get and stay well. Their goal is to make huge profits. Oil and water.

And yet - Obama is going to mandate more payments to these blood suckers. He won't do away from them because - they are already here.

My idea of a great speech would be if Obama led off with something like I just wrote.

But I had no illusions. Money now rules Washington, the companies have a ton of it and we don't.

So - they can't do this, they can't do that but...we'll make up for that with our mandates.

Everyone wins....but us.

[pokercat999]

242. A simple plan, available to everyone, could be put to work

in a very short time frame, should be acceptable to Rethugs.

Everyone must buy into the Federal Employees Health Plan for the same percentage of their income that a Congressperson pays which I think is about 3%. So if you make $0.00 per year the plan is free if you make $5,000,000,000.00 per year you will be picking up the cost for lots of those who have little on no income.

Simple and it works for me, I revise my thought about rethugs but screw them.

[Raster]

246. No, that's far too simple and won't allow the bloodsucking insurance companies to continue

to bleed us dry. And if the bloodsucking insurance companies can't suck us dry, how will they pay off Congress?

[pokercat999]

250. I believe the Federal Employee Health Care Plans are

through for profit insurance companies like Blue Cross/Blue Shield and maybe others. If I remember correctly from a few years ago someone told me they had like 200 different options and could change every year. Anyway it's considered excellent healthcare insurance and the plan could be implemented very quickly. This would also prepare the population for single payer, not for profit, government controlled healthcare.


check it out here http://www.opm.gov/INSURE/HEALTH/

[TankLV]

248. Sorry, will, you're WRONG on this one...and newsflash - you're not always RIGHT!!!

and you're no "god" either...

[Cha]

249. NEWSFLASH for tank..

Will is right on this and you're WRONG.

[Name removed]

251. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

260. Wow.

So, wait...

...you're telling me I'm wrong...

...and I'm not "god"???

OK.

I'm somewhat verklempt here.

I'm WRONG, apparently, which is no galloping shock; I've been wrong approximately seven gazillion times over the course of my tour on this planet, and you have every right to your opinion on the matter.

But...but...but...you're telling me I'm not "god"?

Stunning revelation...pardon the pun.

I have to ask: do you talk like this to other people? Not just online, but out in the flesh world, too?

If so, you should sell tickets. This could become a whole new genre of performance art if you apply yourself.

Wrong. Not "god."

Check please.