GERMAN HEALTH CARE MODEL

[nadinbrzezinski]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406

Read on it, research it, then re-read the speech.

My preference is single payer, but the reality is that a single payer system will NOT happen in the US in my life time

By the way... them congress critter heard a different speech than some of you did. PO is in there and they will even get blue dogs to vote for it...

Carry on...

[John Q. Citizen]

1. Our insurance industry will never stand to make as little as they do in Germany, just as our

drug companies won't stand to sell drugs for what they do in Germany.

[Oregone]

2. This is why the comparison of the German system to massively for-profit, 400+ multi-payers is inane

Im just not sure why people continue to do this

[John Q. Citizen]

3. Rationalization. They can't believe Obama is selling us out for the medical industrial complex,

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I also know that Social Security didn't go far enough in 1936

and for god sakes, Medicare didn't either... care to discuss SCHIP?

This is what they are trying to pass and get dome.

And this is the BEST we can do in this country of ME, ME, ME I got mine now leave me alone and GIT OFF MY LAWN!!!!

Until the country evolves... or it breaks apart. forget it... won't happen... not under the CURRENT SYSTEM, and with the USSC hearing arguments on corporate person hood, it will be even worst.

By the way, this is not rationalization, but this is what they described today.

As to them making as little as they do in Germany, no, but Switzerland is acceptable.

Now if I am wrong, and this is not what they are after, man the barricades and good luck.

[ipaint]

5. A majority of the people want some kind of universal coverage even if it means their taxes go up.

Our representatives and the comfortable middle class on both sides of the aisle, who when combined is a minority in this country, seem to be the ME, ME, ME people.

If obama had given the speech he gave tonight and proposed a system similar to germany's or the netherlands or switzerland, that same majority that want universal care and are willing to sacrifice financially to make sure everyone gets health care, would be loyal to him for the rest of their lives.

The non plan part of his speech appealed directly to our better angels, to community, to the value of lifting all boats, to caring for one another.

Unfortunately that plan was directed to the upper middle class who have insurance, the millionaires club in congress and the ins. companies.

The majority in this country, the working class and the working poor, who by the way are in a depression, where given vague options with confusing requirements and threats of being ostracized as deadbeats should they fall short of elite expectations.

The whole of this country doesn't need to evolve just the folks who, when going through a financial collapse like we just did and still are, can refer to it as a recession.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Care to have a violent revolution?

I am serious... you will not see anything beyond this in your life time... and it is not because of the reps being middle class. It is WHO PAYS for elections and having a winner take all system.

Now in reality I am done with the duopoly and will not be voting to support EITHER of the two (I mean one) party if I am wrong on this. But the devil is in the details. This means readying the damn bills... as in READYING THEM.

[ipaint]

7. That's funny, I was posting in a thread yesterday

and one person was talking about my not being committed to the struggle and I said this isn't a struggle, when it gets violent that's when the struggle starts. When people start getting their heads bashed in.

I've been a democrat all my life but 30 years of this bullshit and I'm right where you are politically.

For me I'm poor, uninsured and over 50. I'm not that far away from nothing else to lose. I can think of no other better way to honorably leave this world than getting my head bashed in. If I make it through to the next decade I suspect I might get my wish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. You may, but I have been following this

by readying bills and all that crap... bad habit I got... I know

And it does strike me as a German style system. It will be far better than what we have and it should control costs and allow coverage of 95% + of the population

Now that is the theory...

From readying bills... hell at one point it LOOKED like the Mexican system, which has way too many issues.

Why tonight I am not that happy about it, but it has potential.

[ipaint]

9. Did you read this thread, some excellent insight.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6506118

Don't miss the link in the last sentence of the opening post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Autorank is good

and trust me I did...

This is a matter close to my heart, for many reasons. They even have names...

As I said, if we get something close to the German model, we can build on it, but a single payer will not happen in my life time... and it is how the system is built. One major flaw in the political system is the winner takes all... and until that changes... most of this will remain the same way.

And I hate it.

[ipaint]

13. I almost agree with you but I don't see how the for profit medical industry can be reigned

in to the point where a german style system emerges. If folks don't experience an improvement they will fight for like medicaid or social security, if all they see are deadbeats and drains on the system they have to pay for, the next change in political parties will set us back decades.

But stranger things have happened, I'm hoping to make it to medicare if it's still there and I can afford it. I'll also hope for the best for you and yours.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Read on social security and what was indtroduced in 1935

and how it morphed... recent example, SCHIP... ironically the republicans introduced it... well the last two revisions have just strengthened it, quite a bit.

In american politics this is the feet in the door... and I do hate this.

[ipaint]

18. I have and I understand the point folks make on gradual improvements.

What bothers me, and I could be wrong, but every time a change was put through it was added to a very successful and much appreciated program. Politically it was a smart thing to do.

What is emerging right now, I don't see people embracing to the point that politicians would feel it was worthwhile career wise to push tougher regulations on a health care industry that pours buckets of money daily into their campaign coffers. Not to mention the money that will be made on wall street once this passes with a mandate.

I'm going to wait to see what emerges in the end, if it is what I think it will be, it won't be a foot in the door.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. And you could say this about the first SS bill

and so on...

This is the nature of the beast

[area51]

23. +1

And I thought German insurance companies -- like insurance companies anywhere in a first-world nation (not us) -- are heavily regulated, which we don't do; that's how our insurance companies use "pre-existing conditions", "recission", and denying legitimate claims in order to make profits by killing people.

[andym]

11. Interesting two-tiered system-- both for-profits and non-profits but the key is tight regulation

Tight regulation would work here too. Just need to define a basic plan with fully defined patient rights and then regulate it appropriately-- for example just cap the premiums and total cost.

As good as single-payer? Probably not. But should be pretty good nevertheless.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6488988&mesg_id=6488988

[Yo_Mama]

12. We22222ll

Personally, I think we would be better off with something like the German plan, but it is expensive for higher earners. If you exceed a certain income limit, which is really high (over 70K), you can opt out of the regular system and contract for insurance yourself.

It costs 15.75% of salary, half paid by the employer and half by the worker. They dropped it to 14.75% this year because of the recession, but it is going to go back to 15.75%. Everybody pays that.

Also, they did reform the system somewhat. There are minor copays now, etc. And they don't have our massive lawsuits either, and if we want something equivalent we probably do need tort reform.

But it is basically a good reliable system. They do not provide all the treatments we do for some types of serious, especially chronic, illnesses, but the system is comprehensive and most people are pretty comfortable with it.

I don't see why a similar arrangement isn't possible in the US, except that I don't see that higher earners are willing to pay the cost of it. If you earn 100K a year, your employer pays about 8K and you pay about 8K. What bothers me about the current proposals is that none of them allocate enough money. This is why we are talking ourselves in circles - it is really all a pretense. HR 676 doesn't allocate enough money, and none of the other bills do either. If we want it, we have to pay for it.

But wouldn't doing it via a payroll tax work better than what we are doing now? Right now we mostly provide free hospital care for illegals, and a payroll tax would take care of that. I think they should have medical care, but not free while most citizens pay. It would not be regressive, and making it a payroll tax would pretty much assure affordability, wouldn't it?

The problem with our system is that it often offers relatively cheap insurance to younger or healthier people, but a lot of people find that if they get sick they will fall through the cracks in the system. This is why a lot of people don't buy insurance - there's no real benefit to doing it, because our insurance system really isn't an insurance system. You can pay in for 25 years, lose a job, and find yourself uninsurable at 57, or offered a plan that basically eats up everything you are making.

The German system is seeing its own costs go up as the population ages, and there have been changes. But on the whole, insurance does mean insurance, rather than our current system of insurance-until-you-get-sick.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Been readying the bills and all that

and the speech made me think back to the German or Swiss model (they are very similar) and I think that is what they are shooting for.

And yes my preference would be single payer, but that ain't gonna happen in the US of A, no sireee... Hell, it would make sense for the publicans to make a serious proposal on these grounds... but on ideological reasons they won't.

As to illegals... in reality it can be dealt with

1.- NOT all Illegals are from Mexico, or Canada, but those two can be dealt under NAFTA and side agreements, getting home countries to pay at least some of it when they end up in local ERs.

2.- Others will require country to country agreements basically making home country pay for it, wiht us paying for OUR citizen's services when visiting.

It can be done, that said, if we go for payroll tax... well then, they do get their payroll deducted with the rest of us.

[WillieW]

16. Thanks for posting this. I grew up with the German Health Care System.

My family and I never had a complaint.

[and-justice-for-all]

17. It is beyond reasoning for the US to NOT have a single payer-system

But, when corporations run your country instead of its citizenry, you end up with a "profits before lives" system.

A mixed Governmental system (Capitalism and Socialism), is a better system. Just ask Scandinavia or any country in the EU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Yeah but political realities are there for something

In my view we NEED single payer, but at this moment in this backwards country it will NOT happen.

At times I wished I did not move here, or wish I could move somewhere else but that is besides the point

[and-justice-for-all]

21. I would enact a single payer system with executive authority...

if I was President and I would not give a shit if I only got one term because of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. That would be a profile in courage, but hey