No one is forced to buy insurance. It's your choice.

[ProSense]

You can opt out of all insurance coverage, your employers and the public option. The small fee you pay to opt out is significantly less than one visit to the emergency room.

You don't have to give your money to the insurance companies. It's still our choice.

[Blasphemer]

1. There should be no fine for opting out

I was self employed for about 10 years and chose to go without. I paid my bills myself. If I choose to do that again, I don't think I should be fined for it.

[drmeow]

2. If you opt out because

you can't afford the insurance, with the government subsidize your fine? They'd subsidize your premiums, right?

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. No but they DAMN sure will charge interest on the balance.

A point no one has addressed yet.

[Thickasabrick]

3. I understand that but if everyone thinks like you then we will never

be able to afford to cover everyone. There are lots of people who don't have the advantage you have of being able to pay all their medical bills. It is only by having everyone participate that the costs will go down because of the huge volume. Think Wal-Mart...but in a good way.

[Blasphemer]

6. I'd have no problem paying into a system I believed in or one that was truly affordable

In the 10 years I opted out, I spent $20,000 on medical bills (including a surgery in Canada which was far cheaper than it would have cost here in the U.S.). I would have spent 3x that much on health insurance and they may have even denied my claims if I did get seriously injured.

[Thickasabrick]

9. If premiums do not go down as a result of this "exchange" then I

would agree. But the law will be prevent insurance companies from excluding anyone, or dropping people. Think of all the people the insurance companies won't need whose job it was to find ways to exclude people. They will have to start really competing again, and when they do, the premiums should come down.

[Lorien]

92. What about DENIAL OF CARE. I've always had insurance but they have hardly

ever covered one damn thing. Not emergency room visits, not surgery, not cancer screenings, NOTHING. I'm self employed and the best coverage I can afford has a 6k deductible and it will not pay for any doctor or hospital which is out of network, and they'll approve life saving surgery only to deny payouts when the bill arrives. Will THAT be regulated?

[TransitJohn]

100. Premiums will not go down.

I wish people would stop with that misinformation. That's not even the point of any of this. The point is to slow the rate at which they grow. PREMIUMS WILL ALWAYS GET HIGHER. IT'S FOR-PROFIT INSURANCE!

[Lorien]

90. My doctor's billing agent agrees with you

she is in charge of dealing with the insurance companies to get payouts-and she does NOT have insurance herself. She says that she sees no point in wasting her dollars or her employers money on a "service" that rarely, if ever, pays out what's been put into it. Sure, one car accident or case of cancer and she would be SOL, but the same could be said if she had a health insurance policy, and that's the truly sick part.

[Blasphemer]

101. Precisely... it's a gamble but not as great of one as it should be.. nt

[ipaint]

7. Has anyone told the for profit insurance industry and thier shareholders

that maximum return on investment no longer comes first. Last time I looked that's not what the law says.

[Thickasabrick]

11. A ton of their profits came from denying claims and dropping sick

people. The only way to make up those profits is to bring more people into their plan - volume. People won't buy it unless it's competitive. I'm hoping this will work, but if it doesn't we just add a real public option which will be a lot easier after these reforms kick in.

[ProSense]

13. What exactly are you arguing: that you hate the insurance companies and mandates, but

refuse to acknowledge that you don't have to deal with them. Why are you insisting that you have to deal with them?

[cornermouse]

58. That's why car insurance is so cheap, right?

Because they've got huge volume and competititon...:spray: :rofl:

[girl gone mad]

70. Forcing people to buy insurance from unethical private businesses..

is not the answer.

[Lorien]

89. Why should any of us pay for welfare for insurance companies

instead of healthcare for our citizens?

[ProSense]

4. If you're self employed you will qualify for the public option and possibly

credits. So what are you complaining about?

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Without opting out some problems wtih this

do you have an extra million dollars?

A serious injury or disease can run a million dollars

If you do, carry on.

[girl gone mad]

71. Only in America.

Most illnesses can be treated at much more affordable rates outside of the country.

[Egnever]

54. So in other words you dont want to pay for insurance

Cause thats fine to opt out when you are young and you wont likely have health problems but as you get older I bet you wont think of opting out then.

Thats part of our problem We need everyone contributing to bring down the costs for everyone from birth to death. How is it right to only pay when you think you have reached the tipping point of your risk.

In reality you would only be taking never contributing. In order for this to work everyone needs to contribute the healthy and the sick and trust me you will get sick eventualy. Its all about spreading the costs. Your turn will come when you need it. It does for all of us in the end.

[Blasphemer]

74. No, not true at all

I would happily pay into a quality health case system that made it affordable for me to do so. My problem is with being fined for opting out if I don't agree with the options given me. I opted out in the past because the options given to me were simply too expensive, especially in the light of the fact that the insurance industry could not be trusted to actually pay up if/when the time ever came. It worked out financially for me because I was lucky enough to avoid major illness/accident but it was a risk (albeit a calculated one). It's not a matter of taking and not giving when by not giving one puts oneself at risk. Besides that, even if I don't pay into a health care industry plan (at my own risk), I do pay into Medicare via taxes.

[Maru Kitteh]

91. I want a through street that goes from my front driveway to the University

Cue the Rolling Stones. "you can't always get what you want"

The bottom line? You have no right to expect the rest of society to cover your ass if you get hit by a bus if you are not willing to contribute to that pool while you are perfectly capable of doing so, but merely choose not to.

[Blasphemer]

103. I have no expectation of having anyone else "cover my ass"

I never implied any such thing. I think there is a great myth building that is equivalent to the "welfare queen" mythology of the 80's. A vast conspiracy of the uninsured seeking to leech of of those who pay into the system. Sure, there are always people looking to game a system but I think that the vast majority of people who opt out (or would opt out) do so for legitimate reasons. If I knew I was paying into a system that was giving me some guarantees (as with Medicare, which again, I DO pay into), why would I opt out? People gamble on their lives because the cost is simply too high. No one has ever paid for my health care bills but me. I take the chance of being bankrupted by a serious injury or needing to go to another country to treat a serious illness. That's on me. That's NOT on anyone else. Again, no one has ever paid any health care bill for me. I don't owe any hospitals any money. I've gone to doctor's offices and clinics for care, NOT the emergency room. I paid for that. How is someone like me looking for the "rest of society" to cover my ass? And how is paying for one's own health care an offense that should have a fine levied upon it?

[uncle ray]

97. how the presidents speech changed my way of thinking:

i now look at it this way, sure you are healthy now, but what about ten or twenty years from now? you WILL need health care eventually. when you need that organ transplant at 60 years old, the system is going to have you covered, but the thing is, you've got to be giving in to the system when you are healthy and working, that's how insurance works. you don't get to pick and choose when you are covered the same as the insurance companies don't get to pick and choose who to cover. i was outraged at the fines for lack of coverage until i watched the speech, combined with talking to coworkers yesterday, made me stop to think that chances are you will need extensive care when you are elderly. say you need a procedure that costs $100,000 at age 60. to have paid for that one benefit you would have had to pay over $200 a month for 40 years. for the system yo work, you can't just sit out your healthy years, you need to look at it as paying for your future care. so if your real life case of not paying for ten years was combined with my hypothetical situation, you would have not paid for a quarter of the cost of your procedure. you'll have to pay higher premiums later or pay the relatively small fine proposed. when you consider the eventual need for care and the cost of being covered, the fine for not being covered sounds like a bargain, especially because if you do have an accident while young healthy and working but not paying, we're still going to help you when you need it. consider the $750 a year a very low premium for care when you really need it.

a simple concept came to me, paying for healthcare is the similar to actually planning on being healthy when you are old. you can't neglect your body for decades and then expect to be healthy when old. likewise you can't abstain from participating for decades then complain about the high cost when you decide it is finally in your best interests to join up. if the system if cleaned up so we can trust and depend on it to be there for us, then there is not much case for not paying a few bucks for the care you will eventually be receiving.

[flyarm]

8. bullshit..it will be mandated..here listen to Kucinich..

where are you getting the propaganda you post???????

please post where it is ever said no one has to buy insurance!!!!!!!

Kucinich Responds To Obama's Address To Congress

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if5fgI-w-CY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edemocraticunderground%2Ecom%2Fdiscuss%2Fduboard%2Ephp%3Faz%3Dview%5Fall%26address%3D385x368612&feature=player_embedded#t=69

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

then you get the Baucus plan.........and do read this in it's entirety..........

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/08/the-bad-max-tax/

The Bad Max Tax
By: emptywheel Tuesday September 8, 2009 6:02 am

Update: Here's Bad Max's "framework."

Bad Max Baucus' health care plan is, best as I can tell, an attempt to turn the middle class into serfs to the health care industry.

Consider the "limits" he places on health care costs for those who make between 300% and 400% of the poverty limit (between $66,150 and $88,200 for a family of four):

Another section of Mr. Baucus’s proposal would help pay insurance premiums, co-payments and deductibles for people with incomes less than 300 percent of the poverty level ($66,150 for a family of four). It would also provide some protection for people with incomes from 300 percent to 400 percent of the poverty level (up to $88,200 for a family of four), so they would generally not have to pay more than 13 percent of their income in premiums.

So Bad Max says that he will prevent these people from having to pay more than 13% of their income in health care premiums. For the family of four making $67,000, that's $8,710. For the family of four making $88,200, that's $11,466. For the family of four making $90,000, apparently, there are no such limits, so they may be paying much more. For what may well be utter and total junk.

Now, frankly, there are a lot of middle class families already paying more than that. Heck, mr. ew and I are paying more than $8,700, and that's just for two of us, and that's before Blue Cross starts whacking us for my pre-existing condition next year.

But that's just the premiums.

Then, Bad Max has a limit for total out-of-pocket expenses (and this appears to include everything). For that family of four--regardless of whether they make $67,000 or $88,200, that limit would be $11,900.

Mr. Baucus would impose limits on out-of-pocket medical costs — the co-payments, deductibles and similar charges for covered items and services. The limits would be $11,900 a year for a family and $5,950 for an individual. The comparable numbers in the House bill are $10,000 and $5,000.

Now, of course families would only have to pay that limit if they used enough services to reach that limit--though in Bad Max's plan, health insurance companies are asked to cover far less of actual expenses, so in Bad Max's plan, families are going to reach that limit relatively quickly. If Bad Max asks families to pay 35% of their costs, then that represents just $34,000 in costs, or less. Bad Max says insurance companies have to provide 73% of costs if they want to be subsidized.

And the only way to keep those costs down under Bad Max's bill is the co-op. So what's to stop the hospitals for charging $10,000 for you to walk through the door? Or for Pfizer to charge you $5,000 a year for your required medicine? What's to stop the insurance companies from charging everyone that 13% rate on premiums, as a matter of course? Under Bad Max's plan, because it requires everyone to have insurance, corporations actually have more of a guarantee (and therefore an incentive) to charge such exorbitant fees.



snip:

Aside from the atrocity that Bad Max thinks middle class families should pay more to his donors than they pay for housing or for their Federal taxes, assuming these middle class families come close to hitting the max in a given year (something Bad Max doesn't do much to prevent), it would leave them just $7,215 for all the rest of their expenses. That's simply unsustainable and would all but preclude things like college. Thus, Bad Max's health care "reform" would basically institutionalize a condition in which the middle class continues to fall further and further behind, paying far too much for health care and/or avoiding necessary treatment. It would keep the middle class drowning under debt. It would continue to force the middle class to choose between health care and things like college or fixing the roof on their house.

[ProSense]

10. Do you even understand the point in the OP? n/t

[flyarm]

20. tell the poor , or out of work..that that small fee will be $3,800...go ahead..tell them its chicken

feed!

I dare you!

Tell the homeless that..why don't you!

Tell it to people like my friend who had pancreatic cancer and didn't have a pot to piss in when he lost his job and got ill with pancreatic cancer..and couldn't even get a fucking doctor.

I dare you to tell them they have to pay a small fee ..of $3,800.00 bucks!

And please don;t dare to say i don't know what i am talking about!

You know nothing about me and the work I have done for and with people with no insurance.

Oh and ps..my hubby worked in Canada for 22 years..i understand single payer quite well..I was the first American that fought to stop paying OHIP..because we were not eligible to get it but were being forced to pay it..through paycheck deductions..i get the system dear..i get it real well!

[ProSense]

22. What the hell are you talking about?

The poor and the out of work are covered under the public option with credits and hardship subsidies, some will be eligible for coverage at no cost.

[flyarm]

48. expected to be less than 5%..on a public option!

Post-Health Care Speech Thread
By Jeralyn, Section Legislation
Posted on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:19:02

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/9/9/21192/99134

What did you think of President Obama's speech (text herehttp://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/09/obama-speech-text-to-congress.html )?

snip;

Now, on to substance. Here's my shorter version:

Mandates, everyone will have to buy insurance.

That’s why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance – just as most states require you to carry auto insurance.

Likewise, businesses will be required to either offer their workers health care, or chip in to help cover the cost of their workers. There will be a hardship waiver for those individuals who still cannot afford coverage,

and 95% of all small businesses, because of their size and narrow profit margin, would be exempt from these requirements.

No more promises your current health insurance plan will still be available or offered.

A public option only for those currently without insurance, expected to apply to less than 5% of Americans:

TalkLeft was created by Denver-based criminal defense attorney Jeralyn Merritt in 2000 as a companion site to CrimeLynx, the criminal defense practitioner's Guide to the Internet

[Lorien]

93. He actually said "Don't worry, you won't have to pay for anyone but

yourself" and mentioned our "proud history of rugged individualism" ; in other words, You'll have your and you can proudly say "screw you"! When is any President going to back away from the far Right ideology of extreme selfishness and UNITE the people?

[Dragonfli]

26. People that don't use every cent each week to just live don't get it

They figure we all have the money they do and condescend to us.
Or insult us for not being "blessed" enough to support millionaires at our expense just so their favorite pols can look good.

They do not understand the blood and turnip thing.

I am waiting to hear the part where we can end homelessness by fining those that REFUSE! to buy houses just because they can't afford them.

[ProSense]

33. Ignorance has nothing to do with being poor. n/t

[TheWatcher]

51. No, but it has everything to do with being you.

[ProSense]

53. The completely lame arguments from the start of the debate

about reform and the public option have all been proven knee-jerk and wrong.

People whining about being forced to buy coverage because they hate the insurance companies is lame. You don't have to.

People whining about being force to buy coverage they can't afford when the subsidies and credit have been explained over and over are being disingenuous.

If you have insurance now, what are you complaining about? Aren't you paying the insurance companies? Do you think the status quo is better?

If you don't what are you complaining about?

The whining is lame, the distortion is even more lame.

[TheWatcher]

55. Not anywhere near as lame as everything you post.

But keep on chirping, Jester.

It's fun to watch, actually.

You just can't help yourself. :rofl:

[ProSense]

57. I see, you don't have a response n/t

[TheWatcher]

63. And you don't have a point.

But then again, you never do.

And so it goes. The Way Of Things. :)

[girl gone mad]

72. How do you know that there will be a public option?

You write as if this is a certainty.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

99. He left it open ended...he said they had four years (trigger) and if something "better" came

along he'd listen. Interesting number 4 years...wouldn't get in the way of a re-election run.

[DireStrike]

80. Wait... the fee is confirmed at $3,800?!?

Holy fucking shit. And the OP thinks it is a SMALL fee? Maybe she can pay mine when I opt out.

[depakid]

45. I think he just told you that you were full of shit

and backed it up

[ProSense]

60. I think the same thing about you. n/t

[TheWatcher]

64. You Think?

Come On. COME ON. You quit your fibbin'. :rofl:

[ProSense]

68. I'll wait until you stop laughing

at your own lame comments for an argument that makes sense.

[Dragonfli]

12. Romney Care works well doesn't it?

[ProSense]

14. Clue: Romney care doesn't exist, not in Mass, not anywhere, and

Mass doesn't have a public option.

You have a choice.

[Dragonfli]

18. I don't have a choice my employer does, or did you not listen to the speech?

The only choice I have at work costs $800 a month carries a very large deductible I cant afford making the coverage useless to me, and since I had to even give that up to meet my other bills I will now have to face a fine. Peachy.

Stop misrepresenting the plan with false hope bullshit. If you like it fine! Just don't BS me about it.

[ProSense]

21. You clearly don't understand the bill

The only choice I have at work costs $800 a month carries a very large deductible I cant afford making the coverage useless to me, and since I had to even give that up to meet my other bills I will now have to face a fine. Peachy.

The public option is open to anyone who cannot afford coverage elsewhere.

What are you arguing?

[Dragonfli]

36. On paper, not in practice, you well to do guys think I can live on less

than I really can.

I've fallen for that crap before when people told me just to get medicaid or stop complaining.
I don't qualify for that either and yet I am the working poor.

NoSense in talking to Prosense, he has no Commom sense.

Stop with the BS already.

I'm not buying it and I read better than you "interpret" mr. minister.

You are the first and only person I have ever put on ignore as I consider you to be nothing more than a close-minded propagandist.

Now let's see, which button does that thing I have heard so much about....

[ProSense]

38. Don't make stupid assumptions, you know nothing about me. n/t

[ddeclue]

15. Small fee my ass - try $3800.

[ProSense]

16. In the others bills it's as low as $450. No one is talking about Baucus' insanity

except you.

[ddeclue]

29. It all depends on how much you make and I've heard no number below $750

and that was for singles at the bottom of the pay scale.

[ProSense]

35. It's not a scale, and the OP point still stands. n/t

[TexasObserver]

41. "it's as low as $450 ...." Thanks, but no thanks!!

I know you love cheerleading for the White House, but this is ridiculous.

Slapping charges on those least capable of paying them and calling that a "reform" is pure horse shit. You can call it something else, but it's pure horse shit.

[ProSense]

42. You don't know what you're talking about

You keep talking about people who can't afford being charged when the bills explicitly state that if a person cannot afford insurance their out of pocket expense could be a low a $0 moving up on a sliding scale.

"Slapping charges on those least capable of paying them and calling that a "reform" is pure horse shit. "

Show me where anyone says this will happen.

[TexasObserver]

43. give me a great big "O" ... give me a great big "B" ...

your cheerleading is remarkably consistent, if somewhat trite

[ProSense]

46. What's trite is your silly responses. n/t

[DireStrike]

81. $450 is not a small fee either

More than 2 weeks pay for me.

[Maru Kitteh]

94. Well the good news for you then is that your healthcare premium will be free, so there'd be no

excuse for not having it.

[Laelth]

17. Wow. Now that's a serious logical stretch.

I appreciate your desire to cheer-lead, ProSense. I want to be hopeful too, but it's becoming much harder.

And I will remind you, again. No public option = no deal.

When we end up with a "health insurance reform" bill that contains no public option (or a useless trigger that will never get pulled), will you then listen to reason on this subject?

:shrug:

:dem:

-Laelth

[ProSense]

19. "And I will remind you, again. No public option = no deal." When are you going to

read any of the bills

When?

[Laelth]

28. Smile.

There's still a long way to go in this legislative arena. You keep doing what you do, and I'll keep doing what I do. That will have to be enough.

:)

:dem:

-Laelth

[TheWatcher]

52. "I'm happy with whatever crumbs they give me from the table because I'm a good little citizen"

"And YOU should be too."

[Romulox]

24. "You don't HAVE to give me your wallet...

...I'm just going to keep punching you until you do. Your choice!" :wtf:

[Laelth]

31. Exactly. A fine is a form of compulsion.

It seriously curtails free will and "choice."

:dem:

-Laelth

[flyarm]

32. and is probably unconstitutional..to be forced to pay a private corporation

for services if one can not afford to or doesn't want to.

[Laelth]

39. Almost certainly.

I can't imagine how the individual mandate could be constitutional, but in all fairness, Barack Obama is a constitutional law scholar, and I am not.

:shrug:

:dem:

-Laelth

[Romulox]

23. LOLs! Unrec. nt

[ProSense]

25. Unrec doesn't change facts.

You realize that don't you?

[Romulox]

30. Nobody disputes the facts--we dispute your characterization of them.

That's a horse of a different color!

[Matariki]

27. A small fee? A one time fee or an annual fine? Or more?

Where are you getting your information about the size and frequency of the fee?

[flyarm]

34. OZ..n/t

[ProSense]

37. It doesn't matter, you're going to be miserable no matter what.

Your choice.

[flyarm]

44. i believe it is you that is miserable ..you can't always live in those pipe dreams now can you?

Post-Health Care Speech Thread
By Jeralyn, Section Legislation
Posted on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:19:02

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/9/9/21192/99134

What did you think of President Obama's speech (text herehttp://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/09/obama-speech-text-to-congress.html )?

snip;

Now, on to substance. Here's my shorter version:

Mandates, everyone will have to buy insurance.

That’s why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance – just as most states require you to carry auto insurance.

Likewise, businesses will be required to either offer their workers health care, or chip in to help cover the cost of their workers. There will be a hardship waiver for those individuals who still cannot afford coverage,

and 95% of all small businesses, because of their size and narrow profit margin, would be exempt from these requirements.

No more promises your current health insurance plan will still be available or offered.

A public option only for those currently without insurance, expected to apply to less than 5% of Americans:
TalkLeft was created by Denver-based criminal defense attorney Jeralyn Merritt in 2000 as a companion site to CrimeLynx, the criminal defense practitioner's Guide to the Internet

oh and psssss..i live in reality..not hope and dreams.

[ProSense]

47. Talkleft?

Have they gotten over the primary yet?

:rofl:

[flyarm]

49. yeah one of the great Obama cheerleaders!!

oh thats right..anyone of the Obama primary cheerleaders that tells the truth now..goes straight under the bus..

Glen Greenwald..Bill Moyers, Rolling Stone mag's Matt Taibbi, lets see the list goes on and on..Huffington Post..gosh i can hardly keep up anymore!!

[ProSense]

50. You're confused. n/t

[flyarm]

77. I am anything..'BUT" CONFUSED " dear..projecting much???????? eom

[jeanpalmer]

56. If they're willing to allow you to opt out

why are they assessing a fine? They're taking the position, "it's ok if you don't buy insurance." Why not just let you go without assessing the fine? Because either way, you're not going to be buying insurance. And it's ok with them.

[ProSense]

59. Why not just let people

who want to drive do it without insurance? You can buy a car and opt out of buying insurance, but you can't get on the road.

[jeanpalmer]

61. I thought your argument was

that we won't have to buy health insurance. We can opt out. So I'm saying if they're going to let you opt out, why impose a fine.

In the case of auto insurance, they don't let you opt out. It's required as a condition of driving.

[flyarm]

78. yes you can..it's why people buy "uninsured and under insured "insurance

I happened to get hit by one of the under insured ...thank goodness I carried uninsured and under insured coverage..the kid that hit me only had $15,000. of insurance..

I had 1/2 of a million in medical bills!

Oh and driving is considered a privledge...not a necessity.

Health care..is a necessity.

[jtrockville]

62. How can we even call such a thing "reform"?

We're rejoicing over the fact that the fine isn't too big if we "choose" not to subsidize executives' gigantic salaries and industry profits?

[ProSense]

65. No, it a simple fact. If you hate insurance or don't want to participate, you can opt out.

You can, that's a fact.

[jtrockville]

66. I guess we should call the legislation

health insurance fact, instead of health care reform? Because I see very little about health care that is slated for reform. But you're right about the health insurance fact - we should consider ourselves lucky to be charged a mere $4k/yr if we don't want to participate in this scam.

[ProSense]

67. 4k/yr? So the only thing you're familiar with is Baucus' insane plan? n/t

[jtrockville]

69. I'm familiar with lots of things,

but the only proposed fines for "choosing" not to subsidize a scam I know of is Baucaus'. And I'd not be any less delighted to pay the individual "choose-not-to-participate-in-a-scam" fine.

[flyarm]

82. shhh..he thinks he is the only one here at DU that knows anything!!

that is why he spews the talking points and propaganda..he thinks the rest of us are ignorant of what he regurgitates.

[TexasObserver]

86. OP starts thread with outrageous claim. OP argues with all who disagree.

This is a standard M.O.

Typical OP points:

"You don't know what you're talking about!"

"You haven't read the bill!"

"He's doing everything he can!"

"I know you are, but what am I?!"

"Did, too!"


Yeah, it's THAT good.

[ProSense]

88. Instead of doing what you just did, refute the points:

You can opt out of all insurance coverage, your employers and the public option. The small fee you pay to opt out is significantly less than one visit to the emergency room.

You don't have to give your money to the insurance companies. It's still our choice.


Can you?

[jtrockville]

96. The point you've failed to make, is how this qualifies as health care reform.

Our "choices" are:

1) Participate in the scam by subsidizing profits + enormous executive pay, and MAYBE the insurance company will be gracious enough to pay our medical bills when we submit claims.

or

2) Don't participate in the scam and pay a fine.

Either way, how does it make anyone other than the insurance industry any better off, with regards to getting health care, than we were without the "insurance fact legislation"?

Seems to me, if we "choose" not to participate in the health insurance scam, we won't be slapped with a fine unless this "reform" is passed.

If that makes you happy, then good for you. But I'll be begging my employer to drop us like a hot potato if this "insurance fact legislation" passes.

[ProSense]

98. Reform: covering 15 million in the public option and

more than 16 million via subsidies and credits:

Health Insurance Subsidies for Low-Income Workers Most Efficient Way to Expand Coverage, Says New Urban Institute Report

WASHINGTON - August 29 - A new Urban Institute report on workers without health insurance suggests that the most efficient way to increase coverage is to target subsidies toward low-income workers. The report offers the most detailed picture yet of the uninsured working population—now numbering more than 16 million—and compares the relative merits of two key vehicles for expanding coverage: tax credits or public programs. It also contains some surprises: though Hispanics are less likely to be covered overall, they accept employer offers of health insurance at the same rate as whites and African Americans.

link

Those taking part in the public option will rise as it's offered by more small businesses and subsequently larger employers as the plans state.

Now, care to refute the points in my previous comment?

[jtrockville]

105. No, not really. I'd rather participate in friendly informative discussions.

Thanks anyway though.

[ProSense]

87. She, and you obviously make too many assumptions. n/t

[Skidmore]

73. Fine and dandy. Opting out is worth squat if you have a catastrophic event

or experience a terminal or severe chronic health condition. There are times in EVERYONE's life when these things happen. If you can afford to pay out of pocket for care then, go ahead and opt out. Most of us cannot do so. This is why healthcare bankrupts people...why they lose everything. Right now, it is, at best, a roll of the dice even when you have insurance. Opting out only makes sense if you can opt into something that will benefit you. Currently, the consumer of healthcare services is losing out all around. Opting out now simply means you lose for sure.

[rucky]

75. True, but you'd prolly have to get your primary care from the ER

which is not so fun.

[girl gone mad]

76. Let's see how well this goes over with the voters.

My guess is that young people will flee our party and the administration knows this which is why the plan doesn't phase in until after 2012.

[flyarm]

79. ding ding ding..we have a winner!! eom

[TexasObserver]

83. Indeed. This will not sell with voters, particularly those who elected Obama.

He's so busy kissing Republican ass he has lost sight of who his constituency is.

[ProSense]

85. You could be

completely wrong.

[girl gone mad]

104. I said let's see how voters react to the plan..

not to the speech.

[branders seine]

84. Did you support Mitt Romney in 2008?

[inna]

95. i believe you're completely wrong with regard to "the small fee".

[kenny blankenship]

102. Even cheaper : You can throw yourself off a bridge

No one is forcing you to go on living if you don't want to pay the toll. Respiration is optional. Choice is preserved. All's right in the Reaganite World.

I won't stop you.