Got in a huge argument with my conservative Mom about Obama's speech last night

[Jennicut]

My Mom was so frustrated with me today when I told her health care is a right...pursuit of happiness and all that...how can one be happy if they are denied a simple thing like being cared for properly when sick? She said it was a privilege and was pissed that insurance companies might go out of business because of a public option. She said I should be worried as a diabetic as I was going to lose my health care once my hubby's company dropped our health insurance and made us go on the public plan because it would be less expensive for businesses to do this then provide health care benefits. She said the public option would then deny me the good care I would need as a diabetic. I think she was freaked out for no reason.

It was so ridiculous! I don't know what to say to such foolishness. To her, the health insurance industry is better then govt. run health care. And as far as businesses go, couldn't we penalize them from dropping people? The only thing we agreed on was that pre-existing conditions should be covered and I bet she would not say that if I was not a diabetic.

Anyone else have debates with their conservative family members like this? I know my Mom cares about me and worries about me but her fears were unjustified and its just frustrating trying to talk to her about this. I think I just need to avoid discussing it in the future.

[DebbieCDC]

1. Does Mom have Medicare?

Just wondering

[Jennicut]

4. No, not yet. She is 61. I asked her about that and she said that her generation deserves it

because they spent years paying for it and Social Security but my generation wants people like her and older people to die and cut their benefits to give people our age health benefits. I kid you not. She listens to Rush, watches Faux. She used to be a reasonable moderate Repub but my Dad really got to her...he thought Cheney was way better then Bush. My parents don't get that me and my older brother, both in our thirties now, will never be conservatives.

[DebbieCDC]

20. Uh-huh THEY deserve it

But nobody else does. More of that "I got mine so fuck you jack" attitude that is becoming the norm in this country.

[SammyWinstonJack]

36. Entitlement. They are entitled to health care ie Medicare, they DESERVE IT! It's a RIGHT for them

and health care for EVERYONE else is a PRIVILEGE. That's some twisted 'logic' there. And some self-serving, self-absorbed 'logic' as well.

[HughMoran]

21. That's truly sad

& kind of disgusting. I weep for people who are so misinformed - how does this happen in this country - it makes me want to :puke:

[Jennicut]

24. It makes me even more sad that it is my Mom.

She can be a good person at times and we are close, she is like a friend. I am 33 so she has no control over my life anymore but it makes me sad. She did grow up in a sheltered, wealthy town in CT and never got out of there much. I will never move back there because of the ignorance level there, its a Repub town though more blue then it used to be. Even in CT, we have conservative areas.

[rwheeler31]

2. Change her channel.

[Jennicut]

6. I wish...only live half an hour away. Maybe I need to block it out on her tv.

}(

[bushisanidiot]

16. And hide the remote!

;)

[Eric68601]

3. You should have said

Should have said "YES, YOUR RIGHT MOM, WHAT AM I GONNA DO WHEN I REACH MEDICARE AGE AND HAVE NO CHOICE BUT USE THAT PUBLIC FUNDING"

[Matariki]

5. Your mom missed the part where business's will be required to provide health insurance?

[Jennicut]

9. They are? I need to tell her that, not that it would change her mind.

She has been hypnotized by the crazies on Faux.

[dysfunctional press]

10. if the fine is cheaper than provding insurance-

some companies will opt for the fine.

[tammywammy]

14. Yes, that's the discussion my dad and I were having

He said what if the fine is less than they'd pay in insurance anyways, why wouldn't they just drop it. We were specifically talking about where we both work (we work at the same place), a company in Forbes 100. I said that our company is a big client of Aetna's (who our insurance is with) and that while where we work would of course be looking to cut cost, Aetna would want to retain their business as well. I said that hopefully Aetna would come down on their prices so that the fine wouldn't be a preferable option.

But for other companies, I could see how if the fine is smaller than paying for health insurance they would just drop the health insurance and let the employees buy it on their own.

[crim son]

7. I can't help but think that there has to be a better argument

than, is healthcare a right or a privilege? Not meaning to be critical, because that's how it's being framed, but I'd say it is "fundamental" in the moral sense. I'd stress morality and if your mother is a Christian, stress that - although if she hasn't heard that argument yet, she hasn't been listening.

I have a number of very bright, college educated acquaintances who oppose anything Obama-esque. One claims that he cannot possibly have Americans' best interest in mind because he's a Muslim. I mean, WTF?

With family as you know, the soft touch is best. If you've planted a few ideas then it's true, best to let it rest. Family is everything. Still, it sucks when family members display their ignorance, doesn't it? Been there, done that.

[Jennicut]

11. Funny thing is, with my husband being a choir director and church organist I am more religious then

she is!

[crim son]

26. That does not surprise me. I am more spiritual than religious

but my stance at this old age has evolved from being a Catholic to... getting it. I spent years questioning my wandering from the Church and then I looked for other churches. I have never abandoned the notion of God or Goddess but organized religion seems hollow to me. So in brief, "religious" is a word that means many things. In your case I do truly believe it means -closer to the Deity-

Organized religion is but the vehicle whereby we might find our God. There are other vehicles, yes?

Hugs to you, Jennicut.

[aquart]

13. Ask her to define a nation.

Then ask her to define a corporation. Ask her if she sees a difference? Ask her the purpose of a nation. Ask her the purpose of a corporation.

A nation exists to promote the well-being of its citizens. A business exists to make a profit.

It is not so much right and privilege as inherent PURPOSE, raison d'etre, reason for being. A nation exists to promote the well-being of its citizens. That means health, physical safety, all of it.

[crim son]

27. Exactly. Exactly!

What higher purpose could there possibly be, in terms of State and in terms of Morality (which, let's face it, is the "archaic" notion upon which the modern state is built). Is it then, Money? or Power? Is it Physical Strength? I've posed this simple question to many a repug and surprised them; in cases, changed their mind.

Repugs aren't evil, they have been grossly mislead. I believe this to the situation in most cases. But I'm a sweetheart.

[Barack_America]

8. Change is scary to a lot of people.

She'll come around.

[Mz Pip]

12. Medicare

doesn't deny care to diabetics. Why would a public option which would be quite similar to Medicare, deny care? I don't get how people who are opposed to a Public Option believe that this will make thing worse. I think the Repubicans are fighting this tooth an nail because it would be succssful and having Obama be successful would be bad for them. Medicare is a very successful goverment program (which the Republicans opposed). They are on the wrong end of this, just like they were then.

A healthy population is in the best interests of all Americans.

What does you Mom think should happen if you lose your husband's group insurance if he lost his job? Then what?

Mz Pip

[Jennicut]

18. I would be forced into a public option and die from lack of care! I think she really believes that.

Maybe she is scared for me as she does not want my health to suffer and has been fed lies by Faux, etc. that govt. run health care is a bad thing and inefficient.

[cherokeeprogressive]

15. Here's my problem with the "health care is a right" notion.

How can healthcare be a right if it costs a medical student or his/her family HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars at a minimum, forces that person who wants to become a doctor to work up to 80 hours a week as an intern, and take more than a decade to achieve?

So you say health care is a "right". How do we exercise that right? Do we FORCE the children of the rich (or just smart kids, for that matter) to go to medical school, while FORCING their parents to pay for it? Do we FORCE internship and all it entails on them?

Becoming a doctor requires a commitment that starts in high school. It requires a commitment that few people can even imagine. It requires a full four years of science and biology in high school. Four years of math, including calculus as well, and let's not forget chemistry, shall we? To get into a good medical school, you not only have to TAKE those courses in high school, but you have to excel in those classes. I'd end this paragraph with a question: How many high schools today even offer the kind of science, math, chemistry, and physics classes that would foster a continuing education in the medical field? Bueller? Bueller?

So, you're lucky enough to live in an affluent neighborhood that has a high school that's up to snuff. Do we DEMAND, do we FORCE you to take those courses and excel in them, in order to prepare for the road ahead? Forget the binge drinking that is most college students' experience today. Forget spending spring break in Ft. Lauderdale, or Daytona, or Palm Springs, or South Padre Island. You've got some serious work to do. Time management will be either your angel, or your devil, and if you don't have a sense for it already, it will most definitely be your devil.

So now you've made it into college. Here is, at a minimum, what's in store for you:

•1 year of Biology with lab
•1 year of Inorganic Chemistry with lab
•1 year of Organic Chemistry with lab
•1 year of English
•Many schools require 1 year of calculus or college level math
•Some medical schools request a course in Biochemistry

Oh yeah, you had better finish those courses with a GPA of 3.5 or better, if you want to get into medical school.

Damn, I could go on for hours. My all-time best friend, the girl I grew up next door to and who was my childhood sweetheart, is now a cardiologist. She's still the same little girl who motivated me to crawl to the top of my swing set so I could talk to her over our backyard fence, but by the same token, she's different. She's still single. She told me once that she could only marry another doctor, because that's the only person who could understand the way the medical profession has consumed her life. She'll be 49 in December, and still hasn't met Mr. Right. Well, I told her that she met him a very long time ago, that he was once her next door neighbor, and she blew him off when she got into high school and her brain went into high gear. I think I still bear the bruise she left on my shoulder.

How do I exercise my "right" to health care, without first demanding that someone go through HELL and their life savings to be able to provide me with the opportunity to exercise that right?

Strange notion, that.

I can understand having a right to things like clean water, clean air, and food, because those things exist in nature. Medical knowledge and skill are things that must be worked very hard at to achieve, and to think that if I achieve that goal, it's your right to avail of my hard won skill seems a stretch to me.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/becoming-a-doctor1.htm

[Jennicut]

19. Maybe not a right but its definately a moral issue then. Where are all the Rethugs with their so

called morality?

[cherokeeprogressive]

23. Good question. n/t

[Mz Pip]

28. If private insurance companies

were doing the moral thing, rather than focusing on their bottom line, we wouldn't be in this mess. But their abuses have been so blatant and accountability has been nonexistant that the government has to step in.

Making a profit by denying people access to insurance is a moral issue. How can it not be? The Republicans really need to have this thrown back at them in these terms.

[Vinnie From Indy]

25. LOL!

OK!

What about lawyers? People have rights in the judicial system don't they? Public defenders are there for people with no means. Americans ahave a RIGHT to be represented in court do they not?

I agree with those that offer that healthcare is a right. Maybe you should explain why children born into wealth are anymore deserving of healthcare than a child born into poverty. These rich children have done NOTHING to deserve world class healthcare other than be born to wealthy parents. Many believe, including myself, that government does exist to protect and serve the general welfare of it's citizens. I would offer that there is hardly an issue of more importance to a society than the health and well being of it's members.

I find your argument laughably inane and wayyy off target!

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. I can get a law degree in a little over three years while sitting on my lily white ass.

Doctor vs Public Defender is not a comparison I'd make if I were arguing that health care were a human right. Yes, maybe AMERICANS have a right to be represented in court, but we're talking about a HUMAN RIGHT, not one offered to Americans in the American legal system.

I can't defend the status of a child born into wealth any more than I can decry the status of a child born into poverty. Nor can I defend the status of a child born in Canada against that of one born in the Sudan. Some things cannot be changed. The Sudan will never be suitable for humans to live there in the numbers that they do now. Canada is a vast wilderness waiting to be inhabited. But it's the situation we're in.

I don't care one way or the other how you find my argument. But, I respect your opinion, and would not ridicule it in the way you ridiculed mine. Would that I were a person who had all the answers. I am not that person.

But I stand by my assertion that a human right cannot be dependent upon someone taking it upon themselves to toil for more than a decade after making the decision to make it available, hard work and expense notwithstanding.

I'd agree that it's more of a moral issue than a human rights issue though. Even then, from where do we recruit the people needed to make morality the driving issue in health care? SOMEONE has to be a doctor. Someone has to be a Nurse. Someone has to be a Radiologist, and a Pharmacist. Will we at some point FORCE people into those positions, because it's a HUMAN RIGHT, and if they have the skill, they should be ready to take on the almost inhuman task of rising to the point of being able to provide it?

[CJCRANE]

32. Firefighters risk their lives to serve the public.

No one is forcing them to do it.

On edit: A right or service should not defined by how easy it is but how necessary it is.

[morillon]

34. What would you say are human rights?

My point would be that we all have some job to do in this world. Some choose to be doctors. Others don't.

Personally, I would consider it a privilege to be able to deliver a vital, valuable service like medical care to others, and I don't consider it an infringement on MY rights to be in the position to assure that others have theirs.

[Vinnie From Indy]

35. Question

After reading your well written reply, I have to wonder what you consider to be a human right. Do you believe there are such things as human rights?
Sorry for the flippant initial response. It was late and I had had a few beers. Cheers!

[morillon]

29. Nobody's saying that doctors should work for free, are they?

I certainly don't think that's the case. Doctors should be paid well. Doctors like your friend work their asses off to get the knowledge they need to do a good job, and that deserves compensation.

I'm strongly considering giving up my Information Technology career and going back to school, after all these years, to become a doctor. It'll thoroughly kick my ass, no doubt about it, but it's something I really want to do.

And I believe unequivocally that health care is a basic human right.

[CJCRANE]

31. In most (if not all) developed countries

where healthcare is a right doctors still get paid very well.

Yours is a strange argument to make. Where do you draw the line? Do you see becoming a police officer or firefighter as easier than becoming a doctor, therefore those services are rights?

On edit: Police officers, firefighters and the military risk their lives to serve the public, IMO that seems to be quite a big sacrifice.

[donco6]

33. Well, now that you mention it -

higher education is a right, too.

[TxRider]

17. She is correct it is not a right

But is it morally the right thing for us to do?

Surely she can agree with that.

Is government the best way to do it? Is it the only reasonable way?

My parents are dems, but I do have aunts, uncles and cousin that are real wingnuts. We debate for hours on end.

[morillon]

22. Here's one way I framed it to a friend...

...who works for a company that has a widely despised former CEO who looted zillions in cash before he got fired. The people who work there hate him so much they can barely speak his name without spitting on the ground afterward. He tanked the company and the employees' retirement plans, and it will take years for the business to recover, assuming it ever does.

She was all aflutter about what would happen to her and to her elderly parents on a government plan. Would their benefits be cut? Would the government decide who lives and who dies? I said, "Tell me, based on all you know about (ex-CEO) and President Obama, who would YOU trust to make life-and-death decisions about your family? The President has some degree of interest in a happy, healthy populace. But people like (ex-CEO) only care about enriching themselves and their friends at the expense of everyone else -- employees, customers, shareholders, EVERYONE. The same kind of people run the big health insurance companies, and they're driven by the same motives."

She got kinda quiet after that.