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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 11:40 PM
Original message
Lawsuits begin. GA public schools sue over charter funding. AZ charters to sue the state.
The goal of opening up public education to the free market system is well on its way. There are problems arising, though. There is only so much funding to go around, and now the two sides are going to sue each other.

I can not tell you how poorly that bodes for the future of education, for putting students first, for putting real learning first.

It is now becoming a business, and No Child Left Behind might as well be called No Child's Behind Left as some have coined the term. It is not about children it is about profit for private companies who own charter enterprises, real estate, firms that devise testing, firms that score testing, and even textbook companies with good connections.

First about Georgia from the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

Gwinnett Schools suing over charter school's funding

$850,000 went to Ivy Preparatory Academy of Norcross

Gwinnett County Public Schools is planning to make good on its threat to sue the state for taking funds away from its students.

A lawsuit is expected to be filed in Fulton County Superior Court Friday barring the Georgia Department of Education from reallocating money meant for Gwinnett to the coffers of a cash-strapped charter school. The suit also will challenge the constitutionality of the Georgia Charter Schools Commission, the state’s newest charter authorizer.

Gwinnett Superintendent J. Alvin Wilbanks said the district is suing the state because it had to take a bold stand to preserve the quality of public education for its 160,000 students.

Gwinnett Schools recently lost nearly $850,000 to Ivy Preparatory Academy of Norcross when the girls charter school received its first taste of matching local funds for the education of students from the state.


Arizona is having some problems. But in this case the charter school groups are suing the state over funding.

So who is thinking about the children?

From Blog for Arizona:

Charter Schools Association to sue for "student equity"

As I've been saying recently, things are going to be hopping in the charter school arena during this school year. We're going to see more stories about charter schools as well as cries for changes, regulations and legislation. The big question is, where will those cries be coming from, and what will they be asking for?

Here's an early shot across the bow. The Arizona Charter Schools Association sent an email addressed to "Charter School Leaders" about a lawsuit it will be filing next week. The lawsuit focuses on student equity within Arizona's system of education finance and will seek declaratory relief that the method for financing public education in public schools violates the Arizona Constitution. The plaintiffs are the parents of public school children (both charter and district) and they are filing on behalf of their children. Grant Woods, former Arizona Attorney General, and Tim Casey, a former partner with Snell & Wilmer and now at a smaller firm, will represent the Plaintiffs.


Here is more from that blog:

A bit of information about the Arizona Charter Schools Association is in order, to put its agenda, and the lawsuit, in context. ACSA is a non-governmental organization set up to support and assist the state's charter schools. I can't find any information on the website to say where its funding comes from, but based on what I know about these associations, most likely, lots of it comes from national organizations and foundations.

Judging from the people in charge, ACSA has a decidedly conservative slant.


They don't have to disclose their funding apparently.

You might be interested in bookmarking the Blog for Arizona website

They are starting a series on peeking inside Arizona's charter schools.

The purpose of the series, Peeking Into Charter Schools, is to shed a bit more light on the subject. I chose the word "Peeking" rather than "Looking" because it's so difficult to get a complete picture of how the schools are run and the ways they educate our children. At best, we only get glimpses. And that's the problem. Charters use tax dollars to educate our children, so we have the right, and an obligation, to know more about how the money is being spent and how the children are being educated.

To help peek through the half closed doors, Jen Darland has agreed to put her formidable research skills to work on the task. Darland is the private citizen and mother of two young children who put together the initial research about problems with tuition tax credits and School Tuition Organizations (STOs). Using her work as the starting point, the Republic and the East Valley Trib have written important articles on the topic, which led to Democratic legislators forming a bipartisan investigative committee to look into the situation.

We're at an important juncture in the 15 year history of Arizona charter schools. The world of charter schools is going through a transition here and across the nation. They're growing in size and in number and beginning, but only beginning, to come under public scrutiny. To improve the schools, we need to understand the legislation, the regulatory systems and the schools themselves to see what's working and what's not.


Yes, we do have the right and the obligation to find out how our tax dollars are being spent.

I only wish someone were scrutinizing Florida's charter schools more closely. This blogger is right. It is very hard to get information. There really is no agency keeping watch, and our public money is being used for experimentation with education without much regulation or oversight.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. K & R. My experience with charters is only tangential, but
it's also damning.

As far as I'm concerned, charter schools are parasites and should be abolished. Thank goodness the one I did some freelancing for is now defunct, but not after it did incalculable damage.



Tansy Gold
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. My experience with AZ charter schools is Direct.
Fraudulent diploma mills and dumping grounds for problem students with very little accountability.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. This experiment will end up like private health insurance.
For-Profit healthcare: we get poorer and sicker. For-Profit Education: we get poorer and stupider.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world laughs at our self-inflicted demise.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. And it IS an experiment without much supervision.
And it is our tax money they are using to do it.

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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. some of the charters here in L.A. provide great alternatives
My son -- who has also been in the public school system -- is at a charter high school now. Started by former teachers.

It's a good place, with a small, focused student body, where everyone is known to everyone else.

Being against *all* charter schools is as myopic as being against *all* public school education. Public schools, after all, are every bit the factories, too --with the over-emphasis on testing, arid, banal textbooks forced on teachers, etc....

The problem is: where can students go to learn where are they each *nurtured*, and responded to, in some way?

Fewer and fewer places, as it turns out...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I loved and nurtured my students in public school.
I have a say in my public schools. I can call the school board and complain.

My tax money is going to charter schools, yet they are often acting without scrutiny or oversight.

They tend to try to disaster capitalism
to privatize schools.

Around the world, disaster is providing the means for business to accumulate profit. From the Asian tsunami of 2005 that allowed corporations to seize coveted shoreline properties for resort development to the multi-billion dollar no-bid reconstruction contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan, from the privatization of public schooling following Hurricane Katrina in the Gulf Coast to the ways that No Child Left Behind sets public school up to be dismantled and made into investment opportunities--a grotesque pattern is emerging in which business is capitalizing on disaster. Naomi Klein has written of,

"... the rise of a predatory form of disaster capitalism that uses
the desperation and fear created by catastrophe to engage in
radical social and economic engineering. And on this front, the
reconstruction industry works so quickly and efficiently that the
privatizations and land grabs are usually locked in before the
local population knows what hit them."


More:

Capitalizing on Disaster in Education

Despite the range of obvious failures of multiple public school privatization initiatives, the privatization advocates have hardly given up. In fact, the privatizers have become far more strategic. The new educational privatization might be termed "back door privatization" or maybe "smash and grab" privatization. A number of privatization schemes are being initiated through a process involving the dismantling of public schools followed by the opening of for-profit, charter, and deregulated public schools. These enterprises typically despise teachers unions, are hostile to local democratic governance and oversight, and have an unquenchable thirst for "experiments," especially with the private sector. (10) These initiatives are informed by right wing think tanks and business organizations. Four examples that typify back door privatization are: (1) No Child Left Behind, (2) Chicago's Renaissance 2010 project, (3) educational rebuilding in Iraq, and (4) educational rebuilding in New Orleans.


Yes, there are some good charter schools. I do not deny that. But they are experiments being done with taxpayer money and with little oversight.

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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. why is an "unquenchable thirst for experiment" automatically a bad thing?
Are we saying that all schools should be ossified/straightjacketed?

Unfortunately, that's what's happening with too many public schools right now. And often -- at least here in L.A. -- teachers have much more leeway, and say, in charter school classrooms.

Until the "test mania" is beaten back -- and the attendent texstbook salesmen -- public schools will find themselves, increasingly, in "intellectual lockdown."
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Do you realize that you are making an important point I try to make?
That mindless testing is killing our schools, harming our teachers, and making an excuse to close down the schools and turn them into charters?

Do you realize that this Democratic administration...Obama and Arne Duncan....are DEMANDING more testing in public schools and more stimulus money going to testing databases to tie teachers more closely to student test scores?

What makes you think charters would be free from testing for long?

I don't think you get what I am saying. I notice that people with children in charter schools don't like what I post.

But remember, it is my taxpayer money paying for it.

Where did you get the "ossified/straightjacketed" idea? Falling for propaganda?
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. why are you so defensive when we're just having a discussion?
Why is my satisfaction with my eldest son's charter "falling for propaganda," and your inflexible defense of public schools isn't?

Kids don't fit into cookie-cutter molds, anyway, and there's no single type of schooling that's best for all.

We both agree that over-testing is killing public schools. And those same tendrils may snuff the life out of whatever good charters we have.

Just as there are lousy charters, there are lousy public schools -- and systems -- and vice versa. That's all I'm saying. And there's no "single" assembly line choice that's best for *everyone's* child.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Why do you refer to "ossified/straightjacketed" public schools?
:shrug:

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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. um, because of the forced testing -- and textbook purchases -- you previously referred to
and which all the teachers *in* public schools that I know, all loathe....
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Those things are designed for failure. On purpose.
You are ridiculing public schools for what is being foisted on them by higher authorities.



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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. The "fight," as it were, isn't all one thing or another -- again, we can't remake public schools
Edited on Fri Sep-11-09 04:39 PM by villager
into a single one-size-fits-all entity. that was always the problem to begin with -- which *some* charter schools are able to address (and yes, there are shitty charter schools just as there are shitty public schools -- and private ones).

So to imagine the "solution" is the vanquishing of all charter schools seems to be just as rigid as the "testing will solve every problem, everywhere" approach. We need a myriad of schools and learning environments, for myriad different types of learners...

That said, we certainly agree on the deadening aspects of test-mania!
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. I'd add one more thing to that list
which is school size, which is an issue most schools don't want to address.

I don't mean class size, but school sizes overall are most often set up to favor nonacademic pursuits like sports (requiring large schools to field the top athletes and fund the best sports fields).

Meanwhile, research shows that communities function as communities best when they are closer to 200 people.

The most vulnerable students thrive more in a smaller environment that fosters a sense of community.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Did you know that Florida DID have a class size limit?
But it is being ignored.

I am putting together more on Florida's charter school mess, which is taking money from public schools on purpose.

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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Nicely ignoring my point
which was explicitly NOT about class size, but overall school/community size.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. Agreed and good point. What are we gonna do about it,
Create more charter and private schools?

Politicians ignore education research.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. charter schools don't do anything public schools couldn't do if allowed to &
given the means.

this cookie cutter argument is popular, but a straw man. charters are given the means to bust public ed.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. so, kids -- regardless of abilities or interests -- should be forced to go to a public school
Edited on Fri Sep-11-09 04:37 PM by villager
which may test, test, test them into learning oblivion, rather than go to a charter which may better suit those interests or learning abilities?

Isn't that the cookie cutter approach?

And no one's trying to "bust" public ed. -- but we badly need to overhaul the whole thing (fund it, kick the moneylenders out of the temple, as it were -- test and textbook makers -- etc...)
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
43. Are you saying you wish all schools could do some of the things
charters do - that it would serve students better?

Which things are those?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. Wow, AZ charters must have problems. More from Arizona Star
Education at charters is spotty, oversight lax

One couple made more than $337,000 last year to operate their charter schools, even though the schools don't rank among top academic performers.

Instructors at another charter school failed to keep students in class long enough and couldn't prove they'd met graduation requirements or that the staff was qualified to teach.

A student at a third charter school received a diploma two weeks after enrolling, even though she'd have had a year and a half to go in a traditional high school. She asked that it be rescinded.
Charter schools exploded onto the scene 15 years ago, when Arizona launched an experiment to fund innovative ventures that would compete with traditional public schools. The 500 schools now make up one-fourth of the state's public schools, and the federal government is granting $53 million to open as many as 100 more in the state.

But an Arizona Daily Star investigation has found that state regulators rarely visit charter schools, that sporadic oversight sometimes allows academic and financial issues to continue for years, and that information about charter schools is difficult for parents to come by.


At least someone is looking into them. Not much oversight like that is going on in Florida yet.
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marybourg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. In AZ we can re-direct our state tax money from state coffers to private and religious
school, up to $500/individual and $1000/ couple. This while the state is so financially strapped it's cutting funding at public schools and universities, closing parks,etc. It boggles the mind.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Florida tax money goes to private religious schools also
via vouchers. It truly does boggle the mind.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. Florida is paying for good scores on the FCAT. 3.6 million to one county alone.
It depends on grade scores made by students which in turn grades teachers which in turn grades schools from A to F.

Remember these schools have to move up one grade level each year no matter what, no matter their demographics. It is zero tolerance, no excuses, not ever.

There is a graphic about how the money is given out to various schools. I tried to size it but can't get it right. Way too small or way too large to try to post.

Pay for good grades

"LAKELAND | Fifty-three schools in Polk County will receive more than $3.6 million in school recognition money this year, the state announced this week.

The money is given to schools that maintained an A or improved by a letter grade.

The Florida Department of Education awards grades based on a formula of points schools earn for student FCAT performance.

Typically, a school advisory committee will decide how the money will be spent.

The money can be used only for bonuses, additional teaching materials or temporary help, said Audra Curts, the Polk County School District's director of finance."


Just think. The year that two of my students refused to take the test in spite of urging from the principal, the parents, the guidance department....it could have mattered whether the school got money or not.

And the schools who are struggling for whatever reason get deprived of funds based on student test scores.

Note that charter schools got the rewards also. Even the one that spent $70,000 of my taxpayer money on a week-end beach retreat for teachers. :shrug:

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
17. Arizona Charter Schools Association: $630,000 from the Walton Family Foundation in 2007.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Thanks for the link.
Checking it out now.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. GA state rep..we have sat here and "tolerated austerity cuts" to our local school systems
Edited on Fri Sep-11-09 02:36 PM by madfloridian
..."that have hampered their ability to provide quality excellent education to all of our children.”

Taken money from schools for years, then called them failures.

Here is more:

Vouchers & charters: Is it really the children’s money or yours?

An education expert gave me a different take: “No, it’s the community’s money and the community decides how to spend it.”

His point: No one’s individual taxes pay for their children’s schools or their roads, their libraries, their recreation centers, their police or their fire departments. Those things are only possible when communities pool their money, and the community has a right to set its own priorities, and those priorities may not include charter schools or vouchers. That’s for the locals to decide for themselves.

And that is the crux now of the charter school battle in which Gwinnett County is suing the state over a new law that allows charter school applicants to bypass the local district and win approval — and access to locally raised tax dollars — from a state commission.

During one of the legislative debates on this law, state Rep. Barbara Reece said, “We have heard about terrible schools in the state, about parents needing a choice. And yet the majority of us for several years have sat in this chamber and tolerated austerity cuts to our local school systems that have hampered their ability to provide quality excellent education to all of our children.”


That battle over local control and state control is going to play out more and more often now.

I expect it soon in Florida. Some charter schools were refused by the county school boards...only to go to the state charter commission to win approval.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. The whole concept of "locally raised money"
is designed to allow the richest communities to fund the best schools, short-changing students who are "less worthy" of an equitable education because they live in poorer communities.

Gwinnett County can claim that the inequities are caused by charters, but that's not the case. Their per pupil funding is $5,673 per student per year. The Arizona average is $6,232, the national average is $8,973, according to http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/219900.

These inequities are caused by the existing public school system (with or without charters) - the same system that traditional public school advocates are unwilling to examine or critique.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. It is the destruction of the public school system by defunding.
They are taking money from public schools that are regulated, and giving them to other school systems that are not regulated in their finances...and in many cases what they teach.

They are in effect destroying the public school system by defunding it.

There are more and more private operators for charter schools who are obligated to large corporations for their backing.

How does one fairly examine a system that has been targeted for destruction in order to privatize it?

The facts are clear. This administration is leading the way in privatizing public schools.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. There is no justification for being unwilling to critiquely examine an unjust system. (nt)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. There has been much examination. They are taking the money from public schools.
And that is causing their destruction on purpose.

I have to tread carefully in not arguing much on this. So I am stating my case, giving examples.

You do not at all have to agree.

Facts are facts.

This is the destruction of public schools, and it will be completed by this administration.

Newt Gingrich is proud.

"Introduce competition among schools and teachers

We should apply the free enterprise system to our education system by introducing competition among schools, administrators, and teachers. Our educators should be paid based on their performance and held accountable based on clear standards with real consequences. These ideas are designed to stimulate thinking beyond the timid “let’s do more of the same” that has greeted every call for rethinking math and science education.
Source: Gingrich Communications website, www.newt.org Dec 1, 2006"

The competition will be forceful and have the money of large corporations behind it. People will be fooled for a while thinking it is mostly just small group stuff. Some is. Most is not.

And Newt is touring with Arne as he celebrates his win after all these years. Corporations will be controlling education within a short time.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. I haven't seen much examination of local funding of public schools.
Edited on Fri Sep-11-09 06:12 PM by noamnety
can you point me to any of that examination here? (this thread or DU as a whole)

Has there been any of that examination (other than the times I personally raise it as an issue)?

I only see people who are unwilling or unable to discuss inequity in the funding system behind traditional public schools - in the way that the system is rigged so the richest kids get the most tax dollars for education.

If you have examined that somewhere, I've missed it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I have written much about it.
Feel free to search.

I am not going to continue arguing, as I made my points.

Yes, I have written about how the richest neighborhoods get more money for their schools.

I have made clear my concern is that charter schools and vouchers are getting money that once went to public schools.

By for now. Even if I answered all your questions exactly as you wish, you would still say I had not.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. Ohio lawsuit won by charter....AG can not shut down failing charter school.
Victory for charter school

In a victory for advocates of charter schools, a Montgomery County appeals court has agreed with a lower-court ruling that Ohio's attorney general cannot shut down a poorly performing charter school under the state's charitable-trust law.

The court of appeals for Montgomery County unanimously rejected the effort initiated by then-Attorney General Marc Dann against New Choices, a privately operated, tax-funded charter school in Dayton.

The case was the last of four lawsuits filed by Dann against charter schools still being reviewed by the courts. Two of the other schools have closed; the other case was settled.

State attorneys argued that the schools were operating as charitable trusts and subject to oversight by the attorney general. The three-judge appeals-court panel rejected that argument.

"In essence, the attorney general is seeking to replace Department of Education oversight with judicial review," Judge Jeffrey E. Froelich wrote in a 27-page decision released Friday


Speaking of which, where IS the Dept of Education oversight if the school is failing?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. but - "charter schools are public schools!!!"
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
46. LOL
There does seem to be a voice missing ...
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
29. Idaho Charter school sues state over Bible plan
http://www.idahostatesman.com/235/story/884827.html?storylink=omni_popular

BOISE, Idaho — A public charter school sued Idaho officials in federal court Tuesday, saying the state illegally barred use of the Bible as an instructional text.

..snip...

Administrators at Nampa Classical Academy, which is slated to become the third-largest public charter school in Idaho when it opens this fall with more than 550 students, told The Associated Press in June they planned to use the Bible as a primary source of teaching material, but not to teach religion.

The academy said the Bible would likely be introduced in the ninth grade, when students delve into the history of Western civilization, and taught for its literary and historic qualities and as part of a secular education program.

The plan prompted the Idaho Public Charter School Commission to review use of religious texts in the classroom.

Commissioners decided last month the school could not use the Bible and said the state constitution "expressly" limits use of religious texts.

more at link: http://www.idahostatesman.com/235/story/884827.html?storylink=omni_popular
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Aren't they doing that in all the public schools in Texas?
It seems very unrelated to the thread content, but if it's an attempt to say that an entire category of school should be wiped out if one uses a bible for a text (which I oppose), what's the conclusion about traditional public schools if ALL the public schools in an entire state are required to teach the bible?
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Well Idaho's state constitution explicitly prohibits religious text in public schools
tate of Idaho Constitution
SECTION 6. RELIGIOUS TEST AND TEACHING IN SCHOOL PROHIBITED. No religious test or qualification shall ever be required of any person as a condition of admission into any public educational institution of the state, either as teacher or student; and no teacher or student of any such institution shall ever be required to attend or participate in any religious service whatever. No sectarian or religious tenets or doctrines shall ever be taught in the public schools, nor shall any distinction or classification of pupils be made on account of race or color. No books, papers, tracts or documents of a political, sectarian or denominational character shall be used or introduced in any schools established under the provisions of this article, nor shall any teacher or any district receive any of the public school moneys in which the schools have not been taught in accordance with the provisions of this article.

---


I only mentioned this in this thread because I feel this is part of the same movement to bankrupt our public schools in order to get religion in them.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. When an entire state of public schools is doing it without the help of charters
maybe charters aren't the underlying problem. It's pretty clear to me that if a state gets rightwing enough, they can simply put religion in the schools. If it requires changing a state constitution, they'll just do that.

Not just Texas, either, come to think of it. Kansas, too.

The problem you raise - religion taught in schools - is real, but it's not a function of charter schools. More traditional publics than public charters push religion in schools.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. No, not really.
Traditional public schools are not supposed to push religion. There are strict rules about it.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. What should happen vs. what DOES happen
Edited on Sat Sep-12-09 08:21 AM by noamnety
Clearly if the entire states of texas and kansas teach religion, our focus should be on total outrage over a couple of charters that do the same.

See, this is why I accuse people of using charters as a scapegoat instead of examining and focusing on the larger (and I do mean LARGER) problems in the system they are so vigorously defending.

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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. Dupe n/t
Edited on Fri Sep-11-09 05:27 PM by FreeState
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-11-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
39. Some AZ charter schools tapping into tax tuition credits meant for others.
http://arizona.typepad.com/blog/2009/09/tuition-tax-credit-sto-scandal-story-updates.html

"Here are some of the latest stories.

* From the Republic: Some charter schools are figuring out a way to tap into the tax credit dollars earmarked for private school scholarships. The charters have discovered they can keep their morning kindergarten as part of their state funded charter school, then spin off afternoon kindergarten as a private nonprofit and have parents get tuition tax credit scholarships to pay for it. Other charters are doing the same thing with after school and summer programs.

* From the Republic: STOs are required to use at least 90% of the money they collect on scholarships. They can use the other 10% for expenses, though some of them, like Rep. Yarbrough's STO, have interpreted the term "expenses" loosely enough to allow him to profit handsomely. But some STOs aren't fulfilling their legal obligation to give out 90% of the money. Some of them say they're holding money back to make sure they have enough to meet the next year's scholarship obligations. But the fact is, the legislation doesn't specify when they have to spend the money, and they aren't required to account to the state for the money they spend each year, so the state has little idea what's going on.

* From the Trib: Some school Choice proponents are hoping to do damage control by crafting legislation to change the tax credit/STO laws so people who feel less kindly toward tuition tax credits don't take the first steps toward legislative reform. The Goldwater Institute is part of the effort. Meanwhile, the legislative committee looking into the situation will be holding a meeting Sept. 21 (it should be streamed on the web). Rep. Schapira, who is heading the committee, "has started contacting tax credit experts and STOs to see if they will attend."
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
44. Ronald Reagan is cheering from the grave. nt
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
45. Uhmm, I would think taking a look at European and Asian schools....................
.................would be a good start. I would like to see K-16 free education OR if a student "opted out" of the last four years would have an opportunity for some kind of "trade" type of schooling. ALSO, do away with the racist and class dividing local real estate funding of schools and standardize the curriculum across the country. My opinion, that would be a good start and we could go from there. But, that ain't gonna happen for two reasons. The first is because it would be "socialism", and the second is it would do away with a quickly growing NEW profit area. Just like the healthcare debate, you shouldn't have the "profit" motive in healthcare, and it shouldn't be in the education system either. Just my .02.
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